GT is canon as much as Super is

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Kokonoe
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GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by Kokonoe » Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:48 am

I don't like discussing canon with this series as I find it quite confusing and all over the place, but a thought just came into my mind when I was reading a GT topic elsewhere.

So Battle of the Gods was the moment where people considered GT dead from the main story as the events that take place undermine certain things that happened in GT early on. However if you look at Dragon Ball Super, the events play out a bit differently than Battle of the Gods albeit mostly the same. So in that regard, that would mean Super's canon isn't necessarily the movie's canon. The same thing occurs with Resurrection F and Super with a lot more changes.

The reason I bring all of this up is because if BotG undermines GT, but Super undermines BotG in certain degrees as well as RF, then at this point you would have to pick and choose what is the canon here. The Dragon Ball Super manga is also a continuation of the series, but the events that occur are drastically different than the anime.

For a place in time Battle of the Gods was considered THE canon, but with Super out which one is more canon than the other? And where does GT belong in all of this?

The answer to that question is this:

Dragon Ball is a huge franchise with multiple canons that interconnect at certain points, but then branch off into their own thing. GT is it's own canon, the movies are their own canon, Super is it's own canon, the Super manga is it's own canon, etc.

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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:05 am

Super overwrites Battle of Gods and Resurrection F AFAIK.
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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by LordCrumb » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:06 am

If Super comes back, and they don't opt to re-write GT, then I still believe Super will end with time travel to a point where Beerus didn't wake up and remember his premonition... hence no SSJG.

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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by sintzu » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:08 am

DB and anything's "canon" depends on who's the writer. For DB, Toriyama is the writer and is clearly only taking the stories he's written into account while writing so as of now, what Toriyama writers is the "canon".

In terms of BOG, regardless of the movie or Super's version, it's basically the same story that leads into the same events.
LordCrumb wrote:I still believe Super will end with time travel to a point where Beerus didn't wake up and remember his premonition... hence no SSJG.
No one's going to do that when Super has skyrocketed the franchise to heights it couldn't even dream of a few years ago. Apart from that, why would they ? for a failed project like GT ?
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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by sunsetshimmer » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:10 am

Dragon Ball doesn't have official canon. There isn't "canon" and "non canon".

But if we ignore that, then I always considred GT as "anime canon" and DBS as "manga canon".

The obvious problem with DBS is that it contradicts both anime and manga, so if we were to talk about canon, then DBS anime as a whole can't be canon in ANY way.
I guess it's just because Toriyama writes DBS as manga sequel while TOEI try to make it anime sequel. So in DBS anime we have things like filler Yadratian designs, Mr Satan students, Tuffles or Saiyaman being movie star, while in the same time we have completely retconned hell with Frieza having no idea about entire fight with Buu :wtf:

GT is pretty consistent with anime. While hell looks different, it's the same hell just redesigned because Goku said that it looks the same as always meaning:
-He was there before (he fell from snake way)
-It's meant to be exactly the same hell

Still, the safest solution that should please everyone would be:
Anime canon: DB->DBZ->DBGT
Manga canon: Jaco The Galactic Patrolman -> DB manga (42 volumes) -> DBS (whatever version you like)

Also, this shows GT and DBS on the same timeline.
And official DBS guide also showed GT as part of story, somehow.
Honestly only fans think about canon in DB.
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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by Kokonoe » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:10 am

sintzu wrote:DB and anything's "canon" depends on who's the writer. For DB, Toriyama is the writer and is clearly only taking the stories he's written into account while writing so as of now, what Toriyama writers is the "canon".

In terms of BOG, regardless of the movie or Super's version, it's basically the same story that leads into the same events.
The problem with using that is that Toriyama no longer is the role he once was back with the original Dragon Ball, Toei actually writes a lot of what goes on in Super which is why the manga of Super is vastly different to the anime.

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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by sintzu » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:18 am

Kokonoe wrote:The problem with using that is that Toriyama no longer is the role he once was back with the original Dragon Ball, Toei actually writes a lot of what goes on in Super which is why the manga of Super is vastly different to the anime.
Toriyama is still the head writer and so far there's been no effort to tie Super in with GT or even Z's movies. That could change once there's a new head writer.
sunsetshimmer wrote:Dragon Ball doesn't have official canon.
No one has to come out and say A, B & C happened while E, F & G didn't. Watching the show/ reading the manga shows what's being taken into account and what isn't.
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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by PsionicWarrior » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:32 am

No it's not, because

In the world of Dragon Ball, there exists a canon story and its non-canon supplements. “Canon” is everything and everyone in the original storyline of the Dragon Ball manga made by Akira Toriyama and products simply stated as canon by him. (BoG, TV Specials, OVA)

If something is said to be “non-canon” it means it never actually occurred in the original story of the manga. This goes for all filler episodes produced by Toei Animation, all movies other than Battle of Gods (which was directly stated as canon by Toriyama), all OVAs except the 2008 Jump Super Tour Anime Special, “Heya! Son Goku and His Friends Return” (since Tarble was mentioned in Battle of Gods, he is canon, and therefore this OVA is canon), and the Dragon Ball Z 2015 movie, Dragon Ball Z: Revival of ‘F’

If something is non-canon, it should NOT be intermixed with canon. Therefore, theories of when the movies took place are all incorrect. The movies never actually occurred in the series timeline (although they can be roughly placed in between events of the series if attempted to do so, but they are still by no means part of the official story). Any character from a non-canon product does NOT exist in the canon storyline and therefore cannot be intermixed.

As a result, are omitted Broly, Turles, and all other Saiyans from the movies, since they are not canon and DO NOT exist in the series official storyline.

In a nutshell, the only canon Dragon Ball content is the manga for both Dragon Ball and Jaco The Galactic Patrolman, “the Trunks and Bardock television specials” (the Trunks special simply because it was a bonus chapter in the manga), 2008 Jump Super Anime Tour Special, Battle of Gods and Revival of ‘F’. Everything else is not canon, and therefore does not really exist in the series at all. They’re mere “what if” side stories that have absolutely no relevance to the plot (although it is not wrong to acknowledge their existence!)

Kokonoe wrote:For a place in time Battle of the Gods was considered THE canon, but with Super out which one is more canon than the other?
Both are products from Toriyama's work so that's pretty much in the air, you can add a third layer with the manga if you want to scratch your head even further lol
Kokonoe wrote:And where does GT belong in all of this?
GT was neither written by Toriyama nor acknowledged as canon by him, so that should be self-explanatory, I hope you understand better now cheers lol

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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by coola » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:48 am

Well, Super changed things so much already (Kibitokai getting seperated, Freeza becoming much stronger) but that doesn't mean GT doesn't count, it just shows what would happen if series went to different part at certain point :) Like Saint Seiya, it have mulitple canons at this point, some show different outcome after ending of original series (Soul Of Gold, Tenkai-hen movie) http://saintseiya.wikia.com/wiki/Saint_ ... _Non_Canon Another example of multiple canons are Godzilla films, after certain point series restart back to Godzilla 1954, and we have new timeline (Showa era, Heisei era, Shinsei era is even more interesting, since, except Kiryu-Mechagodziila movies, every movie in that era is not related to one another)

Fans can also create their own canons, some people despise new Star Wars movies, and ignore Disney decision that Expanded Universe is not canon, and just ignore new movies altogether :)
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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by ABED » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:55 am

coola wrote:Fans can also create their own canons, some people despise new Star Wars movies, and ignore Disney decision that Expanded Universe is not canon, and just ignore new movies altogether :)
Fans can't create their own canon. That's not what canon is. Fans are welcome to like or dislike whatever they wish, but they don't determine canon.
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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by Cetra » Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:01 am

I hope you understand better now cheers lol
You literally just copied a fan-made explanation that ignores multiple things when it comes to the determination of canonicity. So no, he cannot understand it better this way.

Still remember that guy that wanted to embarass Yamamuro-san on Entrevista with the Toei staff just laughing about his question "but fans think because Mr. Toriyama". Toei couldn't care less. And that's how it should be.
Last edited by Cetra on Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by coola » Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:06 am

ABED wrote:
coola wrote:Fans can also create their own canons, some people despise new Star Wars movies, and ignore Disney decision that Expanded Universe is not canon, and just ignore new movies altogether :)
Fans can't create their own canon. That's not what canon is. Fans are welcome to like or dislike whatever they wish, but they don't determine canon.
That's entire problem altogether, Disney is not Lucas, soin theory, you can view new Star Wars as much of canon as EU, since they both weren't created by Lucas, but "outsiders"
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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by Cetra » Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:09 am

coola wrote:
ABED wrote:
coola wrote:Fans can also create their own canons, some people despise new Star Wars movies, and ignore Disney decision that Expanded Universe is not canon, and just ignore new movies altogether :)
Fans can't create their own canon. That's not what canon is. Fans are welcome to like or dislike whatever they wish, but they don't determine canon.
That's entire problem altogether, Disney is not Lucas, soin theory, you can view new Star Wars as much of canon as EU, since they both weren't created by Lucas, but "outsiders"
Disney is not Lucas but Lucas has nothing to say anymore either as long as they don't want to. Now they have what he once had: Ownership, creative rights, etc. The guy could literally write something right now and it would be worthless without Disney just like his "I wanted Episode 7-9 to be about the Midichlorians and the Wills".
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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by sunsetshimmer » Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:25 am

PsionicWarrior wrote: In a nutshell, the only canon Dragon Ball content is the manga for both Dragon Ball and Jaco The Galactic Patrolman, “the Trunks and Bardock television specials” (the Trunks special simply because it was a bonus chapter in the manga), 2008 Jump Super Anime Tour Special, Battle of Gods and Revival of ‘F’. Everything else is not canon, and therefore does not really exist in the series at all. They’re mere “what if” side stories that have absolutely no relevance to the plot (although it is not wrong to acknowledge their existence!
DBZ TV specials contradict manga so you can't call them canon anyway.
Jaco Galactic Patrolman overwrites "Bardock The Father of Goku"
Trunks in manga already could turn SSJ before Gohan died while in DBZ/DBS anime he achieved it after his death.
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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by ABED » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:28 am

sunsetshimmer wrote:
PsionicWarrior wrote: In a nutshell, the only canon Dragon Ball content is the manga for both Dragon Ball and Jaco The Galactic Patrolman, “the Trunks and Bardock television specials” (the Trunks special simply because it was a bonus chapter in the manga), 2008 Jump Super Anime Tour Special, Battle of Gods and Revival of ‘F’. Everything else is not canon, and therefore does not really exist in the series at all. They’re mere “what if” side stories that have absolutely no relevance to the plot (although it is not wrong to acknowledge their existence!
DBZ TV specials contradict manga so you can't call them canon anyway.
Trunks in manga already could turn SSJ before Gohan died while in DBZ/DBS anime he achieved it after his death.
That's a small detail in this context. The overwhelming majority of that story doesn't change between the adaptation and the manga. Goku is still dead, Gohan trains Trunks, dies fighting 17 and 18, Trunks fights them several years later, but fails, then leaves in the time machine.
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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by Kokonoe » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:37 am

PsionicWarrior wrote:No it's not, because

In the world of Dragon Ball, there exists a canon story and its non-canon supplements. “Canon” is everything and everyone in the original storyline of the Dragon Ball manga made by Akira Toriyama and products simply stated as canon by him. (BoG, TV Specials, OVA)

If something is said to be “non-canon” it means it never actually occurred in the original story of the manga. This goes for all filler episodes produced by Toei Animation, all movies other than Battle of Gods (which was directly stated as canon by Toriyama), all OVAs except the 2008 Jump Super Tour Anime Special, “Heya! Son Goku and His Friends Return” (since Tarble was mentioned in Battle of Gods, he is canon, and therefore this OVA is canon), and the Dragon Ball Z 2015 movie, Dragon Ball Z: Revival of ‘F’

If something is non-canon, it should NOT be intermixed with canon. Therefore, theories of when the movies took place are all incorrect. The movies never actually occurred in the series timeline (although they can be roughly placed in between events of the series if attempted to do so, but they are still by no means part of the official story). Any character from a non-canon product does NOT exist in the canon storyline and therefore cannot be intermixed.

As a result, are omitted Broly, Turles, and all other Saiyans from the movies, since they are not canon and DO NOT exist in the series official storyline.

In a nutshell, the only canon Dragon Ball content is the manga for both Dragon Ball and Jaco The Galactic Patrolman, “the Trunks and Bardock television specials” (the Trunks special simply because it was a bonus chapter in the manga), 2008 Jump Super Anime Tour Special, Battle of Gods and Revival of ‘F’. Everything else is not canon, and therefore does not really exist in the series at all. They’re mere “what if” side stories that have absolutely no relevance to the plot (although it is not wrong to acknowledge their existence!)

Kokonoe wrote:For a place in time Battle of the Gods was considered THE canon, but with Super out which one is more canon than the other?
Both are products from Toriyama's work so that's pretty much in the air, you can add a third layer with the manga if you want to scratch your head even further lol
Kokonoe wrote:And where does GT belong in all of this?
GT was neither written by Toriyama nor acknowledged as canon by him, so that should be self-explanatory, I hope you understand better now cheers lol
The point that Toriyama has to be involved for it to be canon is a pretty poor point being that, as I stated earlier, his involvement in Super is very low compared to how it was in Dragon Ball.

When you look at what goes on in the Super Manga, and the Super anime, the power ups and the events that take place, and how those power ups react, and the personalities are completely different for the most part. There are a few things that remain the same, but Toei's writing and Toyotaro's writing plays a much bigger role in how things get to that conclusion.

And when Toriyama dies someday the series will continue without him. This isn't like One Piece where Oda dictates every aspect of the series. Not only that, but GT was actually intended to be the sequel to Z, it failed but that's a whole other topic all together.

I myself don't like GT at all, but it certainly was intended and designed to be a sequel based on Z and marketed as such. It is it's own canon, and I feel as if Super branches off into it's own canon. Obviously with the success of Super and it benefiting from coming out so many years later will be what the content is focused in this time period and into the future, but there was certainly a period where GT was the focus and that cannot be changed.

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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by ABED » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:47 am

GT was canon to the anime, but canon can change.
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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by PsionicWarrior » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:00 am

Kokonoe wrote:The point that Toriyama has to be involved for it to be canon is a pretty poor point being that, as I stated earlier, his involvement in Super is very low compared to how it was in Dragon Ball.
And as sintzu replied you he still is Super's head writer which is literally 100% more involvement than in GT lol
And as ABED pointed out canon can change and BoG alongside Super definitely changed it (if anyone would consider GT canon to start with, I mean it doesn't even has a manga, it's literally a Toei fanfiction following an adaptation lol)

And about what happens once Toriyama is gone we'll see when we get there lol

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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by Grimlock » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:49 am

Kokonoe wrote:So Battle of the Gods was the moment where people considered GT dead from the main story as the events that take place undermine certain things that happened in GT early on. However if you look at Dragon Ball Super, the events play out a bit differently than Battle of the Gods albeit mostly the same. So in that regard, that would mean Super's canon isn't necessarily the movie's canon. The same thing occurs with Resurrection F and Super with a lot more changes.
If this franchise had a canon and Dragon Ball GT were canonical, it wouldn't be thrown out by the window because of Movie 14 (or by Toei's retellings), it would had been thrown out by the window years earlier, because of Dragon Ball Online. Which follows the manga and completely ignores Dragon Ball GT.

And yes, the retellings bring too much inconsistencies in regard to the movies, which creates another continuity in which the movies and the retellings don't take place in the same continuity. This generates something that I will comment below.
Kokonoe wrote:The reason I bring all of this up is because if BotG undermines GT, but Super undermines BotG in certain degrees as well as RF, then at this point you would have to pick and choose what is the canon here. The Dragon Ball Super manga is also a continuation of the series, but the events that occur are drastically different than the anime.
It has been like that for quite some time now. Since there is no canon and as I mentioned above, you are free to choose which continuity to follow. I consider Movie 14 and Movie 15 to be part of the main continuity and completely disregard their (horrendous) retellings. The events you choose are your canon, which no one has the right to tell you you are wrong unless the ones telling you so work for Toei Animation, Shueisha or they are Akira Toriyama himself.
Kokonoe wrote:For a place in time Battle of the Gods was considered THE canon, but with Super out which one is more canon than the other? And where does GT belong in all of this?
There isn't also "more canon than the other". Just like you can consider the movies, others can consider the retellings and completely disregard the movies just fine. Dragon Ball GT belongs to a different continuity in relation to the "main one".
Last edited by Grimlock on Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by ABED » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:51 am

Grimlock, how do you figure there is no canon?
The events you choose are your canon
That's not how it works. The fans who have no ownership of the series don't determine what is an isn't in continuity.
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