GT is canon as much as Super is

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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by ABED » Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:08 pm

Basaku wrote:
ABED wrote:I find no point in dwelling on that sort of "what if". A big difference in this case is DB was very continuity driven and DB eventually did have a conclusion which ended on its own terms. If he hadn't given the story a proper ending in your scenario, yes, it would've bugged me.
And it took over a decade to reach that end. Not quite the "one-off" short good stories
And if he wrapped it up earlier, like the 23rd TB, I would've been fine as well. As long as there's a proper conclusion, I'm fine. In fact, I'd prefer constant reboots to stretching the story out past the point it should've ended and then revive it with no end in sight.
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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by RedRibbonSoldier#42 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:08 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Does whether one piece of Dragon Ball media being "canon" or not ever matter that this stage?
Anime fans care more about canon than the Church. But now that Broly is in Super, I wonder if we have finally reached a singularity where DB fans give up on it. It's not like canon ever meant anything, the manga is still the manga and GT still exists.

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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by ABED » Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:12 pm

RedRibbonSoldier#42 wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Does whether one piece of Dragon Ball media being "canon" or not ever matter that this stage?
Anime fans care more about canon than the Church. But now that Broly is in Super, I wonder if we have finally reached a singularity where DB fans give up on it. It's not like canon ever meant anything, the manga is still the manga and GT still exists.
Get out of my brain!
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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by MetaMoss » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:29 pm

ABED wrote:Get out of my brain!
You could just, y'know, step away and never worry about Dragon Ball canon again. Let the canon-obsessed have their fun, and you could free up some brain-space for something else.
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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by Bullza » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:37 pm

I gave up on it once we had three different versions of the Battle of Gods story.

There's the movie, anime and manga now. Which is canon? Toriyama wrote the former so you'd think that was canon to the manga especially as Gregory wasn't in it.

The anime would be canon to Dragon Ball Kai bit it's not canon to Dragon Ball Z apparently so that's more confusion.

The manga now is completely different from the anime.

This new Super Dragon Ball Heroes anime supposedly features the canon Goku and Vegeta so is that canon? But then theres also a manga which is also slightly different.

If that's canon then wouldn't it also be canon that Dragon Ball Heroes does actually exist but just in a different timeline?

So then rather than GT being non canon then perhaps those events actually did happen but also in another time line.

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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by TheSeductiveTomato » Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:59 am

Bullza wrote: If that's canon then wouldn't it also be canon that Dragon Ball Heroes does actually exist but just in a different timeline?

So then rather than GT being non canon then perhaps those events actually did happen but also in another time line.
Pretty much. It's all canon if you want it to be. Just treat it all like a separate timeline:

-Main anime timeline (Dragon Ball/Z/Super)
-Manga timeline (counterpart to anime)
-Future timeline (Future Trunks)
-GT timeline
-Movie timeline (Dragon Ball movies, Dead Zone up to WotD, BotG and RoF)

Even Heroes. At least, that's my official "canon". Hell, even video games could be considered a part of their own timeline. That's the beauty of the multiverse theory in Dragon Ball; you can enjoy any Dragon Ball medium and not worry about it being discredited because it doesn't fit with the main canon.

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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by Anonymous Friend » Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:34 am

MetaMoss wrote:
ABED wrote:Get out of my brain!
You could just, y'know, step away and never worry about Dragon Ball canon again. Let the canon-obsessed have their fun, and you could free up some brain-space for something else.
And that's the end if the matter as far as a person who doesn't care about Canon should be concerned. Back out of the conversation, or better, don't even get involved to begin with. You don't need to be in it, especially if you're just going to derail it.

When it comes to determining what is and isn't canon, the rule of the newest official release over writes anything old is fine to live by. And unless you get a statement from the authorized authors pertaining to something specific. Right now, Dragonball has a manga and anime that tends to divert at certain points. It's fine to have a anime canon and manga canon for this sort of situation. Moreso now, than in the past with Z where you had certain filler as a mostly non-intrusive side story.

Canonicity is important. It provides the basis and foundation for all future stories. What happened in the past matters. Sure, you can have a property where you get a fresh story every time and everything reverts back to default after matters are concluded. And this could work work our fine. But, if the works last long enough, after the third or fourth time your characters encountered the same situation, our minds will stop to wonder why they haven't learned anything yet.

And at the very least, knowing what's true history and what's not as true history helps to keep confuidown when when having discussions with other people.
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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by MetaMoss » Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:07 am

Anonymous Friend wrote: And that's the end if the matter as far as a person who doesn't care about Canon should be concerned. Back out of the conversation, or better, don't even get involved to begin with. You don't need to be in it, especially if you're just going to derail it.

When it comes to determining what is and isn't canon, the rule of the newest official release over writes anything old is fine to live by. And unless you get a statement from the authorized authors pertaining to something specific. Right now, Dragonball has a manga and anime that tends to divert at certain points. It's fine to have a anime canon and manga canon for this sort of situation. Moreso now, than in the past with Z where you had certain filler as a mostly non-intrusive side story.

Canonicity is important. It provides the basis and foundation for all future stories. What happened in the past matters. Sure, you can have a property where you get a fresh story every time and everything reverts back to default after matters are concluded. And this could work work our fine. But, if the works last long enough, after the third or fourth time your characters encountered the same situation, our minds will stop to wonder why they haven't learned anything yet.

And at the very least, knowing what's true history and what's not as true history helps to keep confuidown when when having discussions with other people.
I could hardly say that better myself. Having a clear-cut continuity can really help to make a fictional world believable, and I'm certainly not going to rain on the parade of any fan who comes up with their own canon to enhance their Dragon Ball experience. A big theme in Dragon Ball has been the progression of Goku and others, so coming up with a defined history for the characters and world is a natural conclusion, in my book.
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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by ABED » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:43 am

Nothing has been derailed. Sure, I don't think all this talk about canon (several threads worth) is necessary, but I've not taken the discussion off topic by bringing up that you can enjoy GT without it being canon. Obsessing over it and forcing it to be consistent with everything else is a headache waiting to happen.
MetaMoss wrote:
Anonymous Friend wrote: And that's the end if the matter as far as a person who doesn't care about Canon should be concerned. Back out of the conversation, or better, don't even get involved to begin with. You don't need to be in it, especially if you're just going to derail it.

When it comes to determining what is and isn't canon, the rule of the newest official release over writes anything old is fine to live by. And unless you get a statement from the authorized authors pertaining to something specific. Right now, Dragonball has a manga and anime that tends to divert at certain points. It's fine to have a anime canon and manga canon for this sort of situation. Moreso now, than in the past with Z where you had certain filler as a mostly non-intrusive side story.

Canonicity is important. It provides the basis and foundation for all future stories. What happened in the past matters. Sure, you can have a property where you get a fresh story every time and everything reverts back to default after matters are concluded. And this could work work our fine. But, if the works last long enough, after the third or fourth time your characters encountered the same situation, our minds will stop to wonder why they haven't learned anything yet.

And at the very least, knowing what's true history and what's not as true history helps to keep confuidown when when having discussions with other people.
I could hardly say that better myself. Having a clear-cut continuity can really help to make a fictional world believable, and I'm certainly not going to rain on the parade of any fan who comes up with their own canon to enhance their Dragon Ball experience. A big theme in Dragon Ball has been the progression of Goku and others, so coming up with a defined history for the characters and world is a natural conclusion, in my book.
I will rain on that person's parade by telling them they can't make up their own canon. And when has any of this actually cut down on the confusion? There doesn't even seem to be a universal understanding about what canon means, much less what DB canon is.
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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by Bebi Hatchiyack » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:06 am

Canonicity is important for a world building aspect.

I can count a lot of franchise that have the same issu with canon as Dragon Ball and anoy the shit out of me.

One franchise that is a western Franchise that I care a lot is the Highlander franchise look at the canon and don't tell me it's not a mess, Zoids another one does everything happen in Planet Zi and how does stories are apart from each other (timeskip), Saint Seiya a general mess like Dragon Ball, in toku we have Kamen Rider and Super Sentai which provide a lot of wibbley wobley. Oh another one the X-Men (Fox Univers) Franchise with a messy continuity that I lost track and give up ! (Can't wait for Disney to take other) speaking of Disney I would like to have them address us if the Princess Universe is set in the same world.

Whatever the franchise canon is important for two things, one world building and two consistency, without that even if the story can be good you have a wibbley wobley mess who doesn't hold itself as a whole.

As for the topic subject, someone told us this and reply this
Bebi Hatchiyack wrote:
Jackalope89 wrote:In DC Comics, there's a thing called Hyper Time, where, due to various circumstances, there are many futures that happen. Like one where Flash and a female Green Lantern have kids (along with various pairings in the League), another future where the sons of Batman and Superman take over for their fathers, one where the son of Superman accidentally kills millions when his power explodes (half human, half Kryptonian), one where all the former Robins cycle through the Bat mantle until Tim Drake kills Damian Wayne....

And all of those futures are on the table, but still exist independently. And as I understand it, Marvel does something similar.
This and that's why I think in fact everything is canon ! GT and Super are canon as well as Online and Heroes.
Why is that you will told me ?

For that we need a bit of a perspective and take a bit of a distance to see the larger picture of this beautiful canvas, bear this perspective with me please.

I like to think that Dragon Ball Heroes comes after Dragon Ball Online and Dragon Ball Xenoverse and that the chronological continuity of Dragon Ball GT was provoked by all the wobbly wobbly timey wimey stuff caused by Mira and Towa and the Timebreaker. So with that in mind we can argue that the Dragon Ball GT timeline could exist because of the actions of Towa & Mira and the timebreakers this of course retroactively.

Of course, all of this minus the arcade game side in universe and the avatar that enters a kind of virtual reality !

My perspective on GT can apply to the same thing for the movies (For exemple Slug movie or Bojack movie) and the exclusive stories of video games with the Artificial Human 21 / Majin Ozotto and Hatchiyack. Oh and I almost forgot Dragon Ball Legends with Sharrotto and Dragon Ball Fusions with Tekka and Pinijii. This may also explain why Dragon Ball Minus differs from Bardock's TV Special and why the Special TV's Trunks to the Manga's do not get the Super Saiya-jin at the same time.

So since the introduction of the timebreakers along with Towa and Mira all can be combined into a single multi-dimensional Universe with the action of timebreakers causing many new branch and continuity ! With this perspective everything would be canon somehow. So overall from a certain point of view, we can say that all the Dragon Ball franchise is interconnected to each other through the temporal actions created by the Timebreaker, and this also include action movies with actors, if we want to be consistent from start to finish.

In Fact it was a smart move to introduce the Timebreakers because with them now Toei, Toriyama and Namco Bandai can excuse a lot of stuff without the need of explanation.

Now I leave you with this idea in mind which is only my guess. Nothing theoretical just a point of view.
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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by STH » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:14 am

GT is it's own canon, the movies are their own canon, Super is it's own canon, the Super manga is it's own canon, etc.
I think so.
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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by ABED » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:35 am

World building is incredibly overrated. All other things being equal, it's nice for things to fit nice and tidy in a serialized story, but if they don't, the stories can still be good. You bring up X-Men, even out of all that mess we still got X2, DoFP, First Class, and most recently Logan. The Evil Dead franchise has a convoluted canon, but it's enjoyable regardless. Hell, even the ending of Army of Darkness: Director's Cut is entertaining, so why does it matter if it's not canon?

If you prefer GT as the continuation of DB, then the events of Super couldn't have happened. Is that really the big of a deal?

All the stuff about timebreakers feels like more effort than it's worth just to make everything fit.
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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by Anonymous Friend » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:12 am

ABED wrote:World building is incredibly overrated. All other things being equal, it's nice for things to fit nice and tidy in a serialized story, but if they don't, the stories can still be good. You bring up X-Men, even out of all that mess we still got X2, DoFP, First Class, and most recently Logan. The Evil Dead franchise has a convoluted canon, but it's enjoyable regardless. Hell, even the ending of Army of Darkness: Director's Cut is entertaining, so why does it matter if it's not canon?

If you prefer GT as the continuation of DB, then the events of Super couldn't have happened. Is that really the big of a deal?

All the stuff about timebreakers feels like more effort than it's worth just to make everything fit.
It's funny you bring up the Xmen film series. I was going to use that for an example based on how this conversation was going and decided to wait. Someone else kept bringing up the DC Multiverses and Elseworlds. I don't believe that correlates close enough to the situation we have with Dragonball simply because of it being written by one guy for a very long time with a singular narrative. Plus the fact that for the last four decades, DC and Marvel make it explicitly known which of their stories exist in their main canon of stories and which ones don't, and they follow the "newest thing over writes older thing" canon policy.

Back to the X-men films. If we are to believe that twelve films exist in the same timeline (three original trilogy, three Wolverine films, four prequel films, and two Deadpool films), everything that released before Days of Future Past, except for First Class, no longer exist in the form of what we watched at the very least, and the events that occurred at that place in the timeline are completely different at the most. On the other hand, you could say that since the Wolverine in Logan has memories from both timelines and, to a lesser extent, the Xavier from Logan has whatever he gleamed from time traveled Wolverine and old Xavier in Days of Future Past, that they still matter. Except, Logan never references these things in the movies and the writers of this series will never references anything meaningful from them beyond some minor easter egg. Also, if I remember what the creators said correctly, that's not even how the series actually ends. It's regarded by them as one of those Elseworlds stories. (If this was a comic book instead of a movie series, we definitely would see someone time traveling from that alternate future back to modern times for some sort of story reason.)

All of this has no bearing on a person's ability to enjoy these films. Heck, a couple weeks ago I rewatched the first six films (yes, even X3 and Origins). And it definitely doesn't stop you from discussing the films. But when discussions of canon, and how events matter in the greater overall narrative of the series as it currently exists.

GT falls under the same category as those other X-men movies. When it comes to discussing the facts of this universe currently, it does not exist.

As for my comment about "derailment". Yes, you are engaging in a form of derailment if your only contribution to a topic is "that thing you are discussing is stupid and doesn't matter".
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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by MetaMoss » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:25 am

ABED wrote:World building is incredibly overrated. All other things being equal, it's nice for things to fit nice and tidy in a serialized story, but if they don't, the stories can still be good. You bring up X-Men, even out of all that mess we still got X2, DoFP, First Class, and most recently Logan. The Evil Dead franchise has a convoluted canon, but it's enjoyable regardless. Hell, even the ending of Army of Darkness: Director's Cut is entertaining, so why does it matter if it's not canon?

If you prefer GT as the continuation of DB, then the events of Super couldn't have happened. Is that really the big of a deal?

All the stuff about timebreakers feels like more effort than it's worth just to make everything fit.
Yet, some people really enjoy it, and it's something that greatly enhances their engagement with Dragon Ball. I think you're gonna need to learn at some point that not every person is you or thinks like you or has the same tastes as you. That something you think is "stupid" has a lot of value to somebody else, and trying to convince them it is "stupid" is at best an exercise in futility. You keep mentioning how unnecessary making a canon for Dragon Ball is, but what do you call what you're doing here?
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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by Anonymous Friend » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:26 am

STH wrote:
GT is it's own canon, the movies are their own canon, Super is it's own canon, the Super manga is it's own canon, etc.
I think so.
Obviously a work exists to itself. That's really not actually saying anything. Saying "GT exists to itself" is meaningless. The discussion of canon pertains to how official works relate to other official works within the same franchise.

Here's some questions I'm going to put out there: Who do you consider official sources for release canon materials? If for whatever reasons Toriyama severed ties to the official releases, manga and anime, and decided to comment on things, would you consider what he said to be higher canon than the manga or anime? Sort of like if George Lucas was to give his own alternate take on events happening in The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi.
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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by ABED » Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:22 pm

what do you call what you're doing here?
Offering a disenting opinion. Are we not allowed to do so? I don't think this stuff has a lot of value to people nor makes them happy. It feels more like a compulsion.
It's funny you bring up the Xmen film series.
I wasn't the one who brought it up. I merely pointed out that even though the films play fast and loose with their continuity, there are still plenty of good to great movies in that franchise.
Yes, you are engaging in a form of derailment if your only contribution to a topic is "that thing you are discussing is stupid and doesn't matter".
I don't put it in those terms, and I think those points I've brought up and a dissenting opinion have value. Could we say each version has its own canon? Sure, but what are we getting from this? Someone said canon makes things less complicated, but given that we don't have universal agreement about what canon is, how has it made things simpler?

I do think continuity is important in certain contexts. For DB, given how serialized it is, it's a good idea for the writer to remember what he wrote before. That's pretty much where I stand on the issue. If Toei creates filler, it's a bad idea to fill in important details that the original writer hasn't when they can easily disregard them, that is, unless you will diverge when you get to that point. When Toei created GT, DB was done with, so they could do whatever they wanted in continuing their anime adaptation. It's their property. GT wasn't well recieved, so one thing I find odd is why anyone who wasn't a fan is bugged by GT being thrown out of the new continuity.
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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by MetaMoss » Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:53 pm

ABED wrote:
what do you call what you're doing here?
Offering a disenting opinion. Are we not allowed to do so? I don't think this stuff has a lot of value to people nor makes them happy. It feels more like a compulsion.
Yes, you are engaging in a form of derailment if your only contribution to a topic is "that thing you are discussing is stupid and doesn't matter".
I don't put it in those terms, and I think those points I've brought up and a dissenting opinion have value. Could we say each version has its own canon? Sure, but what are we getting from this? Someone said canon makes things less complicated, but given that we don't have universal agreement about what canon is, how has it made things simpler?
I don't have anything against a differing opinion, but I do think there is a time and place you can express it without coming off as rude. Considering this thread isn't titled "Does making a canon for Dragon Ball have merit" or something to that effect, what you are doing here is very much derailment. I certainly think that is a conversation worth having, but we should put it in its own thread. Coming into a thread where having a personal canon is already a foregone conclusion and saying "I think your base assumptions are dumb and pointless" doesn't really contribute anything.
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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by ABED » Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:22 pm

MetaMoss wrote:
ABED wrote:
what do you call what you're doing here?
Offering a disenting opinion. Are we not allowed to do so? I don't think this stuff has a lot of value to people nor makes them happy. It feels more like a compulsion.
Yes, you are engaging in a form of derailment if your only contribution to a topic is "that thing you are discussing is stupid and doesn't matter".
I don't put it in those terms, and I think those points I've brought up and a dissenting opinion have value. Could we say each version has its own canon? Sure, but what are we getting from this? Someone said canon makes things less complicated, but given that we don't have universal agreement about what canon is, how has it made things simpler?
I don't have anything against a differing opinion, but I do think there is a time and place you can express it without coming off as rude. Considering this thread isn't titled "Does making a canon for Dragon Ball have merit" or something to that effect, what you are doing here is very much derailment. I certainly think that is a conversation worth having, but we should put it in its own thread. Coming into a thread where having a personal canon is already a foregone conclusion and saying "I think your base assumptions are dumb and pointless" doesn't really contribute anything.
First off, you can't have your own canon.

And I have addressed the main point time and again. "with Super out which one is more canon than the other? And where does GT belong in all of this? " GT is Toei's continuation of the anime based on Toriyama's manga. Canon is whatever Toei portrays it to be. There's no "more canon than." GT's no longer considered canon like it once was, but you can still enjoy it. If that's your preference for how the story continues, then enjoy it as such, but that doesn't make it canon, nor should it matter. I guess you could look at it as the GT canon, but what is the point in doing so? Would it increase your ability to enjoy it if you can attach the "canon" label to a piece of fiction?
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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by Anonymous Friend » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:08 pm

ABED wrote:
MetaMoss wrote:
ABED wrote:Offering a disenting opinion. Are we not allowed to do so? I don't think this stuff has a lot of value to people nor makes them happy. It feels more like a compulsion.

I don't put it in those terms, and I think those points I've brought up and a dissenting opinion have value. Could we say each version has its own canon? Sure, but what are we getting from this? Someone said canon makes things less complicated, but given that we don't have universal agreement about what canon is, how has it made things simpler?
I don't have anything against a differing opinion, but I do think there is a time and place you can express it without coming off as rude. Considering this thread isn't titled "Does making a canon for Dragon Ball have merit" or something to that effect, what you are doing here is very much derailment. I certainly think that is a conversation worth having, but we should put it in its own thread. Coming into a thread where having a personal canon is already a foregone conclusion and saying "I think your base assumptions are dumb and pointless" doesn't really contribute anything.
First off, you can't have your own canon.

And I have addressed the main point time and again. "with Super out which one is more canon than the other? And where does GT belong in all of this? " GT is Toei's continuation of the anime based on Toriyama's manga. Canon is whatever Toei portrays it to be. There's no "more canon than." GT's no longer considered canon like it once was, but you can still enjoy it. If that's your preference for how the story continues, then enjoy it as such, but that doesn't make it canon, nor should it matter. I guess you could look at it as the GT canon, but what is the point in doing so? Would it increase your ability to enjoy it if you can attach the "canon" label to a piece of fiction?
It been said multiple times is that the purpose of an official canon is to determine events that happen when discussing a series. There's so much stuff that happens in GT that we doubt any of it will have come to pass in the future of the series. Piccolo ends up in Hell, Seventeen is dead, Goku is in the body of a child, and let's not forget all the stuff having to do with the dieties and the multiple universes. Even if all this stuff takes place ten years in the future of Super's timeline, can anyone honestly say that everything introduced in Super will still allow the events of GT to occur?

And, yes, people can have their own canon. It's call fan fiction. And those people just have to keep in mind that other people follow a different series of events and how the series played out.
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ABED
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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by ABED » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:32 pm

And, yes, people can have their own canon. It's call fan fiction. And those people just have to keep in mind that other people follow a different series of events and how the series played out.
Fan Fiction isn't canon! One of the defining criterion of canon is that it's official, as in it doesn't include fan fiction.

Official canon is redundantly redundant.
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