GT is canon as much as Super is

[Tai Lung]

when the movies were made, no series was planned. reason next why the series adapted those stories

canon is what the author says it is ..
toriyama I consider the super series as the main continuation that would be the canon

the manga is for publicity and is incomplete because it depends on the adaptations of the movies by toei animation

gt is a continuation of toei in which toriyama refused to continue in regards to histor. y he only made a few drawings
just like the movies are alternative stories but no-canon

Since DBS contradicts a large amounts of DBZ I always see it as a kind of side story with DB-Z-GT forming a more or less cohesive trilogy.
It's really a shame DBS took place after Buu since it caused all kinds of continuity problems like:

none of those things contradicts the epilogue of z, the design changes have nothing to do and that is not mentioned does not deny anything either

in gt
movie characters appear in gt that contradicts a lot of z
that and that the hell of z is different from that of gt
goku's ssj3 does not work for having the small body and however gotenks could use it
the tsufurujin are not as seen in gt
the black star dragon balls

just to name a few. I don't care that Toriyama wrote Super. I care about the quality and consistency of the story and Super fails on both accounts. Everyone is free to create their own head canon so I'm glad to leave out the mess that is Super. I also really don't care about all the retcons and added stuff to Z like minus and 17 and 18s real names. It just feels like Toriyama is coming up with things on the spot on no one filters his bad ideas.

that's not how works.
the owner it's that he decides how his story continues not the fans
another thing is that one prefers one or the other

GT&Z have literally the same hell&didnt movie characters like Garlic Jr&Pikkon also appear in Z?

filler .. and not cooler
piccolo says that the souls of the bad reincarnate in z how kid buu in super it is explained because it is not the case of frieza but in general it remains there are no dead villains walking around
still taking the filler they look different
z


gt

[saiyanhajime]

If it wasn't in the manga, it's not canon.

This, but also, sill no. Because if we’re gonna get really fussy, you also have to be able to read Japanese fluently. And what happens with regards to manga contradictions? Can two opposing facts be correct?

Very much a believer and advocate in death of the author... aka, the text is mine now and I will enjoy it and pick and choose aspects from it I like.

I kinda agree that Super is no more canon than GT. Mostly because I think drawing that arbitrary line in the sand with regard to what is or isn’t canon is so pointless. What level of involvement from the author is objectively required to call something canon, exactly?

[ABED]

Very much a believer and advocate in death of the author... aka, the text is mine now and I will enjoy it and pick and choose aspects from it I like.

Pretty sure that's not what the concept is meant to entail. It doesn't apply to canon.

The author doesn't have to actually be involved in an axillary work, they just have to give their appraisal. And it should be said that canon can change on a dime. Authors can change their mind.

[saiyanhajime]

Very much a believer and advocate in death of the author... aka, the text is mine now and I will enjoy it and pick and choose aspects from it I like.

Pretty sure that's not what the concept is meant to entail. It doesn't apply to canon.

It... Kinda does though? It's literally about interpretation. About how every single person who ever reads a text, each and every time (text in this context meaning any media, from manga, anime to simply stand alone art) will interpret it differently and "pick and choose" from the text. The point of death of the author as a concept is to push back against the idea of there being one true interpretation of a text, the one in which the author intends. The argument being that not only does that limit the text massively, but it's... Well, it's impossible. Authors are flawed and like you say they change their mind. If the text literally contradicts itself, how can there be one singular interpretation? Does the author even truly know what they want to convey 100% of the time and are they capable of getting that accross to anyone but their own clone? How can everyone around the world with their different life experiences, knowledge, language and personalities, interpret a text the same way an author penned it decades earlier? It's not possible, and so to elevate an author and their "canon" to God-like status is absurd. The text is ours, we interpret it as we wish on an individual basis.

Your second statement is absolutely spot on, completely agree. My point was basically that, being so picky about what is and isn't canon isn't really useful, because the actual canon would be such a marginal specific thing that no one could enjoy. When generally considered non-canon texts are excluded just because they don't fit into the timeline, how is that different to a generally considered canon text literally doing the same thing or even contradicting or "retconning" some major element of the original text? Why include one, but not the other? where do we draw the magical line in the sand? We don't know what the author really intends, so there is no true canon. And even if there was, it wouldn't make GT any less valid.

[TenshinFan]

Why does Toriyamas involvement determine canon? Isn't that a bit like saying only the Lee/Ditko spider-man issues are canon?

The series contradicts itself even within the original manga. The only things way off would be the movies, and even then toriyama designed several characters and concepts like the Tree of Might! So is that canon because toriyama was involved? It can't be because it doesn't fit in the timeline.

I think the argument here is that GT "should" count for all intents and purposes because it is the only followup to Z.

I think at this stage of the fanbase there are people now getting in to DB 30 years later, kids, and it's arguably more popular than ever, that have only really seen Kai and Super and maybe videogames like XenoVerse. Then there's the old guard that grew up fondly regarding the movies and GT because in the late 90s and 2000s, that's all we had! Movie and GT characters and concepts are still frequently being made into merchandise and figures and videogames and card games and are absolutely considered a part of the franchise.

I think there's a multiple time lines angle, which is really being played up in a lot of these video games too.

And then there's the multiple interpretations. The Manga only crowd. The Manga and anime only crowd. The Manga and Super crowd. And so on. I feel like there's a split in the fan base with the pre-2008 material and post-2008 material. They definitely don't really mesh well and there seems to be a lot of rebooting going on.

Personally I consider GT and the Movies "canon" to the extent that these characters exist in the DB universe, these fights happen, these transformations happen. Just details of the time line need altering and adjusting. In the same respect that Toriyama contradicted himself and events several times writing the original manga.

If it's Dragon Ball it counts. GT is what happens at the end of the series. Super is what's currently airing so that's the status quo, subject to inevitable scrutiny and change.

[ABED]

You are stretching the definition past the breaking point. Canon isn't about interpretation at all, it's about what is in continuity and that's the sole discretion of the author. And why is this a bad thing that the text is limited? All canon says at the end of the day is "X happened" or "Y didn't happen." Contradictions happen, which does create questions about which event should the viewer take as the truth assuming they care for the story to be fully consistent. However, I think as long as you use the definition as a north star as opposed to being nitpicky, you (the audience) will be okay.

Why does Toriyamas involvement determine canon? Isn't that a bit like saying only the Lee/Ditko spider-man issues are canon?

No, because they don't own the character and it's not all one story with a single author. It's more like saying only JK Rowling determines canon. At the very least, we know for certain the original story is canon. It's the starting point. Everything else is up in the air. There's a big difference between an almost inevitable continuity error that happens over the course of a long story and intentional retcons or contradictions.

there is no true canon.

What does this mean?

The way I think of it is mostly useful as a tool to get your bearings about what stories you need to take into account. For instance in GT, it considers the Tsufruians, a filler element, to be in its continuity.

[TenshinFan]

Um OK but toriyama created the concept of the tsufruians vs the saiyans.

And they have to "own the character"? OK not sure why you're just making up rules here. But then take Spawn by Todd McFarlane. He owns it. But the Brian Haberline issues are still canon. Even though they're not as good.

Everyone has their own idea of canon therefore there is no "true canon".

[saiyanhajime]

You are stretching the definition past the breaking point.

I think we are forced to do that because it's not black and white with DB. I doubt it is with anything.

[ABED]

You are stretching the definition past the breaking point.

I think we are forced to do that because it's not black and white with DB. I doubt it is with anything.

It's very clear that death of the author is about interpretation of text, not about continuity. One is opinion, the other has objective answers if the author decides to give them either explicitly or implicitly.

[saiyanhajime]

You are stretching the definition past the breaking point.

I think we are forced to do that because it's not black and white with DB. I doubt it is with anything.

It's very clear that death of the author is about interpretation of text, not about continuity. One is opinion, the other has objective answers if the author decides to give them either explicitly or implicitly.

Yes, you are absolutely correct. But where do we objectively draw the line about what is and is not canon?

I don't care what is or isn't canon. I care about what we, as individuals within a community, take from it. I care that we are taking something from it and enjoying it (or, at least, enjoying talking about it, heh). I care that I might not give a damn about GT, but to others it's really important. I care that the argument about what is or isn't canon is so often used in elitist ways to put down things other people love, and that should be stomped out. I think the idea of Toriyama (or any author) as god, especially when we have so little contemporary and consistent information about what what that author intends (often because they don't intend), isn't helpful. Death of the author does not mean there is no canon, but it absolutely does intertwine with the discussion about whether canon matters.

[ABED]

I hear you. I go back to the north star analogy. It's just a guide to say "these are the events that constitute the story." In the case of the manga, it didn't take the filler material from the anime into account when telling its story. For GT's continuity, it does take Toei's filler into account.

To use another series as an example, Will and Grace had a series finale, but the revival doesn't take into account the last season, or at least the last few episodes, so we know we can disregard the events at the end of season 8. If you like them or even prefer them to the revival, great, but the revival overwrote those stories so they could tell whatever stories they wanted in the revival.

[sunsetshimmer]

movie characters appear in gt that contradicts a lot of z
that and that the hell of z is different from that of gt
goku's ssj3 does not work for having the small body and however gotenks could use it
the tsufurujin are not as seen in gt
the black star dragon balls

-Garlic Jr was in Z so that's not a big problem. And the only movie character that appeared in GT was Cooler for like 2 seconds as an easter egg. Super has far worse problems here with including Gregory and Mr Satan's students like Caroni and Piiza. Not to mention using filler Yadratian design in both anime and manga.
-They look different but they are officially the same hell. Just like DBS Trunks is the same Trunks from Z despite having blue hair.
-How does it contradict anything? Gotenks was a fusion and that was the only reason they could turn SSJ3 in the first place.
-Tuffles in GT looked exactly the same as in Z
-What?

[Kokonoe]

The funny thing is at this point even the latest movie doesn't necessarily follow the anime. The lack of Vegeta Blue2 is proof of that, especially since that form doesn't exist in the manga so it was obviously a Toei thing and Vegeta has no reason to not use it in the Broly film. Being that's more Toriyama focused it's kinda proof of that.

[Tai Lung]

movie characters appear in gt that contradicts a lot of z
that and that the hell of z is different from that of gt
goku's ssj3 does not work for having the small body and however gotenks could use it
the tsufurujin are not as seen in gt
the black star dragon balls

-Garlic Jr was in Z so that's not a big problem. And the only movie character that appeared in GT was Cooler for like 2 seconds as an easter egg. Super has far worse problems here with including Gregory and Mr Satan's students like Caroni and Piiza. Not to mention using filler Yadratian design in both anime and manga.
-They look different but they are officially the same hell. Just like DBS Trunks is the same Trunks from Z despite having blue hair.
-How does it contradict anything? Gotenks was a fusion and that was the only reason they could turn SSJ3 in the first place.
-Tuffles in GT looked exactly the same as in Z
-What?

the introducction of cooler I take it as fanservice
the tsufurujin in z are liliputienses but in gt they have a normal size
Because being a child prevents you from being ssj3? if goku is supposed to be stronger than gotenks even if it's a fusion that should not change
the Yadratians never came out in the manga they are only mentioned does not contradict anything
How Gregory is a problem? is a secondary character not the villain of a movie, he was adopted in the canon as happened once with south kai that appeared first in the anime and then in the manga

[sunsetshimmer]

the introducction of cooler I take it as fanservice
the tsufurujin in z are liliputienses but in gt they have a normal size
Because being a child prevents you from being ssj3? if goku is supposed to be stronger than gotenks even if it's a fusion that should not change
the Yadratians never came out in the manga they are only mentioned does not contradict anything
How Gregory is a problem? is a secondary character not the villain of a movie, he was adopted in the canon as happened once with south kai that appeared first in the anime and then in the manga

-How do you know they were normal size? They weren't shown in comparison to saiyans in GT. Their design is basically the same. Actually, i'd say in GT they seemed even shorter than in Z:


-SSJ3 was always a form that was hard to mantain even for adult Goku and Goku's little body couldn't handle it. Gotenks was a fusion so that had to give him stronger body.
-Except that Toriyama provided his official design of this race for Dragon Ball Online and they look nothing like their filler design from Z/Super
-He is bigger problem being part of story in Super. Him and other filler characters have dialogues. While Cooler was just shown for 2 seconds.

[PFM18]

why does this thread even exist? Toriyama is integrally involved in Super but did next to nothing for GT. End of story.

[Kokonoe]

why does this thread even exist? Toriyama is integrally involved in Super but did next to nothing for GT. End of story.

So you're saying Battle of the Gods is more canon than Super is?

[Goten_jr]

DBS is part of the main Story&the Continuation of the Buu arc
GT is a (alternate)continuation of the end of Z&not part of Toriyamas Continuity. End of the Story

[Tai Lung]

the introducction of cooler I take it as fanservice
the tsufurujin in z are liliputienses but in gt they have a normal size
Because being a child prevents you from being ssj3? if goku is supposed to be stronger than gotenks even if it's a fusion that should not change
the Yadratians never came out in the manga they are only mentioned does not contradict anything
How Gregory is a problem? is a secondary character not the villain of a movie, he was adopted in the canon as happened once with south kai that appeared first in the anime and then in the manga

-How do you know they were normal size? They weren't shown in comparison to saiyans in GT. Their design is basically the same. Actually, i'd say in GT they seemed even shorter than in Z:

-SSJ3 was always a form that was hard to mantain even for adult Goku and Goku's little body couldn't handle it. Gotenks was a fusion so that had to give him stronger body.
-Except that Toriyama provided his official design of this race for Dragon Ball Online and they look nothing like their filler design from Z/Super
-He is bigger problem being part of story in Super. Him and other filler characters have dialogues. While Cooler was just shown for 2 seconds.

I will give you the reason that there is no direct comparison but here they look much higher




yeah .. goku had trouble maintaining it but it is a weaker goku (z) and could keep it, in the case of gotenks it also meant to wear and could keep it more time.
ok it could be ... but in the seires never said, just you're assuming
that does not change anything a game is a game simply, dragon ball online is no longer a canon for the arrival of super.
the same Gregory does not do anything the situation is the same as that of sourth kai appears in the manga but its existence is irrelevant to being a secondary character the same wirh gregory
Cooler is a villain of a movie whose chronology does not fit the canon I can take it as irrelevant if you want but it does not change what piccolo says of the souls in hell

[PFM18]

why does this thread even exist? Toriyama is integrally involved in Super but did next to nothing for GT. End of story.

So you're saying Battle of the Gods is more canon than Super is?

Only reason it isn't is because it was retconned. Battle of Gods the movie when it came out was more canon than GT.