GT is canon as much as Super is

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Jord
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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by Jord » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:38 am

Since DBS contradicts a large amounts of DBZ I always see it as a kind of side story with DB-Z-GT forming a more or less cohesive trilogy.
It's really a shame DBS took place after Buu since it caused all kinds of continuity problems like:

-Freeza not being in hell anymore
-Kibitokai not being fused anymore
-No one "remembering" everything that happened during Super when they meet again in the final Z eps (and GT)
-No one remembering the skills they acquired during Super.
-Emperor Pilaf and co. being young (which reminds me of that horrible pedophilia storyline in GT)
-Beerus saying he wiped out dinosaurs long ago (when we've seen dinosaurs earlier in Z and later on in Z)
-Trunks and Bulma suddenly having new hair colors for no reason.
-Kuriirin shrinking for some reason.

just to name a few. I don't care that Toriyama wrote Super. I care about the quality and consistency of the story and Super fails on both accounts. Everyone is free to create their own head canon so I'm glad to leave out the mess that is Super. I also really don't care about all the retcons and added stuff to Z like minus and 17 and 18s real names. It just feels like Toriyama is coming up with things on the spot on no one filters his bad ideas.

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Arian
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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by Arian » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:46 am

I couldn't have said it better myself. Most people just hate GT because it's popular to hate GT and because the messiah Toriyama had little to do with it.

But the fact of the matter is, the writers at Toei had a much better vision for following up on Z in 1996 than Toriyama did in 2015.

I could go into how trite and cheesy a lot of the "comedy" in Super is, but you're strictly talking about canon so we'll stick with that.

I don't know if I'd say GT is the one true path, but I'll take it over Super any day.
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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by Bebi Hatchiyack » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:58 pm

Here is my view take it or leave it lol

https://www.deviantart.com/teoma-the-na ... -603122194

8)
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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by Gligarman » Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:20 pm

If it wasn't in the manga, it's not canon.

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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by PFM18 » Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:42 pm

Jord wrote:-Freeza not being in hell anymore
-Kibitokai not being fused anymore
-No one "remembering" everything that happened during Super when they meet again in the final Z eps (and GT)
-No one remembering the skills they acquired during Super.
-Emperor Pilaf and co. being young (which reminds me of that horrible pedophilia storyline in GT)
-Beerus saying he wiped out dinosaurs long ago (when we've seen dinosaurs earlier in Z and later on in Z)
-Trunks and Bulma suddenly having new hair colors for no reason.
-Kuriirin shrinking for some reason.
1. Freeza in Hell was only filler. It doesn't contradict anything or cause any consistency issues within the original source material or the main continuity of the series.
2. Kibitokai not being fused doesn't contradict anything relevant from the original manga so it isn't an inconsistency.
3-4. I mean, they aren't necessarily not remembering it. It could still conceivably fit in that respect, just because they don't talk about it doesn't mean it didn''t happen.
5. Pilaf doesn't appear in EoZ IIRC so it doesn't actually cause any inconsistencies.
6. I mean sure, Beerus said he wiped out the dinosaurs. But this is more of a nitpick than anything else. And I'm not sure this is even in the Super adaptation of that arc.
7. Both have the same hair color. Bulma has Blue hair,
8. Kururin has always been very short, and he isn't definitively shorter in Super. This simply isn't an inconsistency, or at the absolute worst, is a very minor one.


Oh man, this ONE example of an inconsistency really means the series isn't consistent with the rest! Oh no!
Arian wrote:But the fact of the matter is, the writers at Toei had a much better vision for following up on Z in 1996 than Toriyama did in 2015.
It is a fact? Do you know what a fact is? I for one, am of the belief that GT is worse than Super in every conceivable way other than the ending, and doesn't even feel like Dragon Ball at all, let alone being a better vision for following up Z. Is that notion a fact? No, it isn't. Nor is your belief a "a fact of the matter."

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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by funrush » Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:16 am

There's so much stuff in Super that isn't in GT that it'd just be a huge box of continuity problems if they were on the same timeline. I like to consider them alternate versions of each other, Super being the more legit or "canon" one since it has Toriyama's direct involvement.

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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by Jord » Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:24 am

funrush wrote:There's so much stuff in Super that isn't in GT that it'd just be a huge box of continuity problems if they were on the same timeline. I like to consider them alternate versions of each other, Super being the more legit or "canon" one since it has Toriyama's direct involvement.
But does Toriyama's involvement actually makes it more legit (as in realistic) from a story point of view? I know who the man is and I really enjoy his manga work but the past few years the quality of his work for DBS actually took a big nosedive from his original work. Granted, we don't know exactly how much he actually contributes to the story but I assume that he at least comes up with the general outline for each chapter in Super. And it's just.....mediocre for the most part. There are some exceptions but large parts of Super just feel like filler but the most important thing I'm missing is a sense of progression.

In DB, Z and GT we saw characters grow. Literally as well as figuratively. In Super, everyone's character more or less stays the same except for a few power ups. This is largely due to the fact that it's shoehorned in just after the Buu saga after which most characters are concluded and we know how the characters will behave after Super due to the final Z episodes. From what I've read, this awkward placement was also a Toriyama choice. Even though I prefer GT over Super, I'd rather see a sequel series to Z since it would give the writers more freedom to do with the characters.

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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by KBABZ » Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:28 am

Jord wrote:But does Toriyama's involvement actually makes it more legit (as in realistic) from a story point of view? I know who the man is and I really enjoy his manga work but the past few years the quality of his work for DBS actually took a big nosedive from his original work.
I don't think it's about realism compared to the original work and more that the original author is contributing to the stories, which counts for a lot when deciding what the core works of the franchise are supposed to be these days.

Although apparently the buck stops with DB-, so that logic can only go so far it seems.

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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by Arian » Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:04 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Arian wrote:But the fact of the matter is, the writers at Toei had a much better vision for following up on Z in 1996 than Toriyama did in 2015.
It is a fact? Do you know what a fact is? I for one, am of the belief that GT is worse than Super in every conceivable way other than the ending, and doesn't even feel like Dragon Ball at all, let alone being a better vision for following up Z. Is that notion a fact? No, it isn't. Nor is your belief a "a fact of the matter."
Oooh, someone's coffee was pissed in this morning.

And yeah, because Vegeta sucking on a pacifier, Videl getting lotion, and Jaco the Galactic Patrol Man are so Dragon Ball-related. Enjoy those, by the way while you get salty about people with different opinions than you using terminology you don't like. Typical Super fan, I guess.
Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?
Super Saiyan Prime wrote:It's an edited, cynically produced, cheap recut with a poorly utilized ancient score and awful scene recreations that later got traded in for a weird green tint.

The story of Kai's production is far more interesting than the actual product.
Danfun64 wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:40 pm
Screw Corus and it's monopoly. It should sell off the Nick, Disney, and CN assets at minimum.

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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by PFM18 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:46 pm

Arian wrote:Enjoy those, by the way while you get salty about people with different opinions than you using terminology you don't like. Typical Super fan, I guess
That's entirely the point, the fact that you call it my "opinion" drives my point home. You said your opinion is a fact. No, this isnt some semantics issue or something.

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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by Shaddy » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:08 pm

The fact that this became a shit-flinging thread of "Super is better than GT" and "GT is better than Super" shows how dumb the divisions in the fandom are.

Gonna say this: The quality of a work is independent from how much it matters to a series' continuity. I think the Bardock special is actually good and the newer Bardock story is a pile of shit (well, "story"). But I cannot deny that the DB Minus way of doing things is how Bardock is now. Toriyama wrote it, Toei has conformed to his writing, it is pretty objectively the new truth, whether we like it or not.

Toriyama had little to do with GT beyond some ideas and character designs, about the same as all of the definitively not-canon movies, and he has obviously payed no mind to GT whatsoever in how he writes newer works. Whether you think Super is good or not, it is Toriyama's series more than GT ever was, even if he's not drawing it himself like he used to.

If you think he should write differently, it doesn't change that he is, at least as far as we can tell, as in-control of the story as he ever was, only opting to not do as much work because Toriyama doesn't actually like writing very much. I'd say that continuity and author involvement are all that exist within whether a work is canon or not, whether you personally enjoy it is irrelevant.

Which is not to say people aren't smug about considering GT worse for it not being canon, but the simple fact is that there's enough problems with every part of Dragon Ball that you could make a convincing argument towards almost all of them for being the best in some respect.
Last edited by Shaddy on Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by KBABZ » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:11 pm

Shaddy wrote:The quality of a work is independent from how much it matters to a series' continuity.
THANK YOU.

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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by PFM18 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:22 pm

Shaddy wrote:The fact that this became a shit-flinging thread of "Super is better than GT" and "GT is better than Super" shows how dumb the divisions in the fandom are.
Not in this case. I was just commenting on how he had claimed that GT being better than Super was a fact. As if it is somehow an undeniable truth or something....

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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by Arian » Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:23 am

PFM18 wrote:
Shaddy wrote:The fact that this became a shit-flinging thread of "Super is better than GT" and "GT is better than Super" shows how dumb the divisions in the fandom are.
Not in this case. I was just commenting on how he had claimed that GT being better than Super was a fact. As if it is somehow an undeniable truth or something....
No, you're just playing semantics. What? I gotta watch my talk because some idiot on Kanzenshuu said so? No thanks. Opinions in themselves are self-defined facts, so if I say something sucks, I don't always have to preface or follow it up with "in my opinion."
Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?
Super Saiyan Prime wrote:It's an edited, cynically produced, cheap recut with a poorly utilized ancient score and awful scene recreations that later got traded in for a weird green tint.

The story of Kai's production is far more interesting than the actual product.
Danfun64 wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:40 pm
Screw Corus and it's monopoly. It should sell off the Nick, Disney, and CN assets at minimum.

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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by KBABZ » Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:35 am

Arian wrote:Opinions in themselves are self-defined facts, so if I say something sucks, I don't always have to preface or follow it up with "in my opinion."
I feel like there are some times when you have to use it, like when you pepper in your opinion into a sentence that is otherwise factual in nature.

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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by PFM18 » Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:42 am

Arian wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Shaddy wrote:The fact that this became a shit-flinging thread of "Super is better than GT" and "GT is better than Super" shows how dumb the divisions in the fandom are.
Not in this case. I was just commenting on how he had claimed that GT being better than Super was a fact. As if it is somehow an undeniable truth or something....
No, you're just playing semantics. What? I gotta watch my talk because some idiot on Kanzenshuu said so? No thanks. Opinions in themselves are self-defined facts, so if I say something sucks, I don't always have to preface or follow it up with "in my opinion."
You don't have to say "in my opinion", because that much is implied. You just have to avoid claiming that your opinion is somehow a "fact of the matter."

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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by funrush » Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:44 am

Jord wrote:
funrush wrote:There's so much stuff in Super that isn't in GT that it'd just be a huge box of continuity problems if they were on the same timeline. I like to consider them alternate versions of each other, Super being the more legit or "canon" one since it has Toriyama's direct involvement.
But does Toriyama's involvement actually makes it more legit (as in realistic) from a story point of view? I know who the man is and I really enjoy his manga work but the past few years the quality of his work for DBS actually took a big nosedive from his original work. Granted, we don't know exactly how much he actually contributes to the story but I assume that he at least comes up with the general outline for each chapter in Super. And it's just.....mediocre for the most part. There are some exceptions but large parts of Super just feel like filler but the most important thing I'm missing is a sense of progression.

In DB, Z and GT we saw characters grow. Literally as well as figuratively. In Super, everyone's character more or less stays the same except for a few power ups. This is largely due to the fact that it's shoehorned in just after the Buu saga after which most characters are concluded and we know how the characters will behave after Super due to the final Z episodes. From what I've read, this awkward placement was also a Toriyama choice. Even though I prefer GT over Super, I'd rather see a sequel series to Z since it would give the writers more freedom to do with the characters.
I would argue that the only arc in Super that's even close to being filler is the Goku Black arc and even that has some neat lore details and consequences (Two Zenos). Every arc besides it introduces a bunch of interesting characters or lore or something that adds to the Dragon Ball universe. BoG, Resurrection F, Universe Tournament arcs, these all kind of built off of each other and IMO do have a sense of progression, even though it's mainly focused in the BoG and ToP arcs. I think because there's no timeskips and because the cast isn't changing as rapidly, that the sense of progression is lessened, but IMO it's still there and it still feels like the Dragon Ball universe is growing with each one.

As far as character work, there are 2 characters that have had noticeable shifts, Vegeta and Gohan. Vegeta is now fully a family man, and even kind of takes on a mentorship role with Cabba. He really feels like Goku's friend now. He's also learned to pursue power without chasing Goku, and his SSB2 (or whatever it's called) form in the ToP arc is a really awesome moment that kind of solidifies that. Gohan is now fully retired, a family man. There's that filler episode that puts up the facade that he's training again but in reality he is a bench character cause he prefers it that way. The fans might not be happy with that one but it is apparent.

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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by Goten_jr » Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:17 am

Honestly,As long as DBS stays in the 10 Years Timeskip I don’t even care about GT being canon or not it’s the only continuation of the end of Z&this is what matters for me

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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by Tai Lung » Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:27 pm

when the movies were made, no series was planned. reason next why the series adapted those stories

canon is what the author says it is ..
toriyama I consider the super series as the main continuation that would be the canon

the manga is for publicity and is incomplete because it depends on the adaptations of the movies by toei animation

gt is a continuation of toei in which toriyama refused to continue in regards to histor. y he only made a few drawings
just like the movies are alternative stories but no-canon
Jord wrote:Since DBS contradicts a large amounts of DBZ I always see it as a kind of side story with DB-Z-GT forming a more or less cohesive trilogy.
It's really a shame DBS took place after Buu since it caused all kinds of continuity problems like:
none of those things contradicts the epilogue of z, the design changes have nothing to do and that is not mentioned does not deny anything either

in gt
movie characters appear in gt that contradicts a lot of z
that and that the hell of z is different from that of gt
goku's ssj3 does not work for having the small body and however gotenks could use it
the tsufurujin are not as seen in gt
the black star dragon balls
Jord wrote:just to name a few. I don't care that Toriyama wrote Super. I care about the quality and consistency of the story and Super fails on both accounts. Everyone is free to create their own head canon so I'm glad to leave out the mess that is Super. I also really don't care about all the retcons and added stuff to Z like minus and 17 and 18s real names. It just feels like Toriyama is coming up with things on the spot on no one filters his bad ideas.
that's not how works.
the owner it's that he decides how his story continues not the fans
another thing is that one prefers one or the other

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Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Post by Goten_jr » Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:05 pm

Tai Lung wrote:when the movies were made, no series was planned. reason next why the series adapted those stories

canon is what the author says it is ..
toriyama I consider the super series as the main continuation that would be the canon

the manga is for publicity and is incomplete because it depends on the adaptations of the movies by toei animation

gt is a continuation of toei in which toriyama refused to continue in regards to histor. y he only made a few drawings
just like the movies are alternative stories but no-canon
Jord wrote:Since DBS contradicts a large amounts of DBZ I always see it as a kind of side story with DB-Z-GT forming a more or less cohesive trilogy.
It's really a shame DBS took place after Buu since it caused all kinds of continuity problems like:
none of those things contradicts the epilogue of z, the design changes have nothing to do and that is not mentioned does not deny anything either

in gt
movie characters appear in gt that contradicts a lot of z
that and that the hell of z is different from that of gt
goku's ssj3 does not work for having the small body and however gotenks could use it
the tsufurujin are not as seen in gt
the black star dragon balls
Jord wrote:just to name a few. I don't care that Toriyama wrote Super. I care about the quality and consistency of the story and Super fails on both accounts. Everyone is free to create their own head canon so I'm glad to leave out the mess that is Super. I also really don't care about all the retcons and added stuff to Z like minus and 17 and 18s real names. It just feels like Toriyama is coming up with things on the spot on no one filters his bad ideas.
that's not how works.
the owner it's that he decides how his story continues not the fans
another thing is that one prefers one or the other
GT&Z have literally the same hell&didnt movie characters like Garlic Jr&Pikkon also appear in Z?

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