Why do so many Z fans refuse to watch the original Dragon Ball?

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Re: Why do so many Z fans refuse to watch the original Dragon Ball?

Post by KBABZ » Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:32 pm

ABED wrote:Perhaps, though I don't think there's as much confusion about the canon of Harry Potter. I don't know if Rowling uses the term, but she says what counts in the world of her story and she is deeply invested in the integrity of the world she created, even in adaptations. Toriyama clearly has an affinity for DB, but I don't think he guards it as much as Rowling does, nor as much as I think he should.
Well I wasn't thinking about canon there, more trying to incite a discussion on how Harry Potter compares to Dragon Ball with a shift in style. Canon is easy for Harry Potter: Novels and Movies, done.

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Re: Why do so many Z fans refuse to watch the original Dragon Ball?

Post by ABED » Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:40 pm

KBABZ wrote:
ABED wrote:Perhaps, though I don't think there's as much confusion about the canon of Harry Potter. I don't know if Rowling uses the term, but she says what counts in the world of her story and she is deeply invested in the integrity of the world she created, even in adaptations. Toriyama clearly has an affinity for DB, but I don't think he guards it as much as Rowling does, nor as much as I think he should.
Well I wasn't thinking about canon there, more trying to incite a discussion on how Harry Potter compares to Dragon Ball with a shift in style. Canon is easy for Harry Potter: Novels and Movies, done.
I think she has said stuff on twitter that isn't in the books. Regardless, your point is well taken. In Harry Potter, there are big shifts in structure by the end, especially the last one where Harry, Ron, and Hermione don't even go to school like they did in the previous books. DB changed things up from pretty much the jump.
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Re: Why do so many Z fans refuse to watch the original Dragon Ball?

Post by KBABZ » Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:35 pm

ABED wrote:I think she has said stuff on twitter that isn't in the books.
Yeah, in addition to things like Pottermore and The Cursed Child, which I bet fans debate if they should be considered canon considering they were added much later. As well as things like "Are the Fantastic Beast films canon to the novels, the movies, or both?".
ABED wrote:In Harry Potter, there are big shifts in structure by the end, especially the last one where Harry, Ron, and Hermione don't even go to school like they did in the previous books. DB changed things up from pretty much the jump.
There's also a big shift in tone too. Starting with film three the story gets darker until it hits an even point with Order of the Phoenix, with a spike in Deathly Hallows. It's a contrast to the more light-hearted early books, which themselves had darker elements like Voldemort himself and the whole "Tom Riddle seduces a child to do his bidding" thing from the second book.

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Re: Why do so many Z fans refuse to watch the original Dragon Ball?

Post by DestructoDisc » Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:52 pm

I'm not sure if i'm allowed to post something like this here but recently there was a a DB vs DBS poll in a Google+ Dragon Ball group that has more than 300,000 members in it. The poll is still open but so far these are the results:

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240 voted for Dragon Ball
211 voted for Dragon Ball Super

Some of the people who voted for Super said that they didn't watch Dragon Ball, others said that they found it boring and uninteresting.

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Re: Why do so many Z fans refuse to watch the original Dragon Ball?

Post by KBABZ » Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:03 pm

DestructoDisc wrote: others said that they found it boring and uninteresting.
Oh like the Tournament of Power? :P

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Re: Why do so many Z fans refuse to watch the original Dragon Ball?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:48 pm

DestructoDisc wrote:I'm not sure if i'm allowed to post something like this here but recently there was a a DB vs DBS poll in a Google+ Dragon Ball group that has more than 300,000 members in it. The poll is still open but so far these are the results:

Image

240 voted for Dragon Ball
211 voted for Dragon Ball Super

Some of the people who voted for Super said that they didn't watch Dragon Ball, others said that they found it boring and uninteresting.
Do you have a link? I'd love to vote in this, because I'd never forgive the taste of those in the fandom if something as lackluster as Super managed to beat DB in popularity.
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Re: Why do so many Z fans refuse to watch the original Dragon Ball?

Post by MajinMan » Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:35 pm

People use Google+? There’s over 300k members in a Dragon Ball group? That’s what I find most surprising about that poll.
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Re: Why do so many Z fans refuse to watch the original Dragon Ball?

Post by Analytical Delusion » Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:26 am

I can’t speak for anyone other than myself, but watching portions of the original DB just feels like a chore for the most part. I have tried time and time again to watch it all the way through, but have stalled each time. That isn’t to say I haven’t watched the complete series - I have probably watched the first half a couple times, and from the 22nd TB on probably 5-6 times. It’s just that it’s diffixult for me to make it all the way through consecutively. This isn’t an issue for me with DBZ or Super (aside from the Gotenks/Super Buu portion of DBZ).

I don’t think it’s poorly written, but it’s difficult to get fully immersed without the high stakes. Yes, I probably do have some bias as someone who watched DBZ first, though I did watch DB before I saw the Cell or Buu arcs in the anime (aside from a handful of fansubs for some of the more ‘hyped’ portions). But when I watch, I find the plot and villains (again pre-22nd TB) to be a chore. I basically find myself watching for Goku/Kuririn/Bulma/Roshi, and their interactions. There are a couple elements that I find mildly interesting (Goku/Kuririn training, the concepts of Muscle Tower and Baba’s tournament), but the rest is lost on me. I don’t mind reading the pre-22nd TB stuff as much in the manga. It’s less entertaining, and less of a chore (but still is tough to get through; again, would say the same about the Gotenks/Super Buu stuff).

It’s hard for me to put my finger on a specific reason why the early DB stuff is so difficult for me to watch. The fights feel different and too gimmicky (particularly in the 21st TB, outside of the final fight). People decry the blurred punches/kicks and ki blast spamming, but one trick pony fighters are really lame to me. Especially because the joke is wasted on the viewer after watching the first time. Later in DB I think there is some element of tactical fighting, but I think people underestimate the strategy and choreography of fights in DBZ.

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Re: Why do so many Z fans refuse to watch the original Dragon Ball?

Post by DestructoDisc » Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:44 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:
DestructoDisc wrote:I'm not sure if i'm allowed to post something like this here but recently there was a a DB vs DBS poll in a Google+ Dragon Ball group that has more than 300,000 members in it. The poll is still open but so far these are the results:

Image

240 voted for Dragon Ball
211 voted for Dragon Ball Super

Some of the people who voted for Super said that they didn't watch Dragon Ball, others said that they found it boring and uninteresting.
Do you have a link? I'd love to vote in this, because I'd never forgive the taste of those in the fandom if something as lackluster as Super managed to beat DB in popularity.
Sure. Here's a link for it: https://plus.google.com/b/1085656398621 ... ti1jQbNpSr

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Re: Why do so many Z fans refuse to watch the original Dragon Ball?

Post by ABED » Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:50 am

I don’t think it’s poorly written, but it’s difficult to get fully immersed without the high stakes.
Things like that often bore me if the stakes aren't personal. The fate of the world and the universe don't really matter because it's too abstract. Buu's not a more compelling villain because he can destroy the universe.

I find Goku's goal of winning the TB to be incredibly compelling.
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Re: Why do so many Z fans refuse to watch the original Dragon Ball?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:52 am

DestructoDisc wrote:Sure. Here's a link for it:
Thanks!

And, oof, never read the comments.
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Re: Why do so many Z fans refuse to watch the original Dragon Ball?

Post by KBABZ » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:45 am

ABED wrote:
I don’t think it’s poorly written, but it’s difficult to get fully immersed without the high stakes.
I find Goku's goal of winning the TB to be incredibly compelling.
Agreed! Particularly with the 22nd, there's real tension as to whether Goku can win or not, and for a good moment it looks like he will... until he doesn't. I guess this is also another reason why I'm not as enamored with the 23rd TB; because Piccolo is a world-destroying villain rather than simply a fighting rival, that kind of guarantees that Goku will win, which spoiled some of the tension the first time I watched it.

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Re: Why do so many Z fans refuse to watch the original Dragon Ball?

Post by ABED » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:13 am

KBABZ wrote:
ABED wrote:
I don’t think it’s poorly written, but it’s difficult to get fully immersed without the high stakes.
I find Goku's goal of winning the TB to be incredibly compelling.
Agreed! Particularly with the 22nd, there's real tension as to whether Goku can win or not, and for a good moment it looks like he will... until he doesn't. I guess this is also another reason why I'm not as enamored with the 23rd TB; because Piccolo is a world-destroying villain rather than simply a fighting rival, that kind of guarantees that Goku will win, which spoiled some of the tension the first time I watched it.
I think the quality of the fight more than makes up for the predictability. Goku earns that victory. Hell, he puts winning above the fate of the world. That's how much he wants that title. After coming so close twice and losing that much blood, that victory is well deserved.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Why do so many Z fans refuse to watch the original Dragon Ball?

Post by majinwarman » Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:32 pm

ABED wrote:
Robo4900 wrote:
majinwarman wrote: I think that it is fine advice though I wouldn't like to skip episodes that are crucial to the story of the series.
I mean, given how most events in the early arcs tend to be built on in some way later on, and how the Red Ribbon arc had a direct sequel in the Cell arc(Which, at least in the original Z anime, even included the return of Tao Pai-Pai himself briefly), you're always going to miss important stuff if you skip material.
I know, but apparently there are plenty of fans that are fine with it seeing as how they started 1/3 of the way through the story.
That is their choice and they must live with it.
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Re: Why do so many Z fans refuse to watch the original Dragon Ball?

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:34 pm

majinwarman wrote:
ABED wrote:
Robo4900 wrote: I mean, given how most events in the early arcs tend to be built on in some way later on, and how the Red Ribbon arc had a direct sequel in the Cell arc(Which, at least in the original Z anime, even included the return of Tao Pai-Pai himself briefly), you're always going to miss important stuff if you skip material.
I know, but apparently there are plenty of fans that are fine with it seeing as how they started 1/3 of the way through the story.
That is their choice and they must live with it.
Sure. And if they refuse to try for a broader understanding of the franchise, that's their loss, and I'm not going to try to push against a brick wall with someone like that. I'm sure it'd be very interesting to discuss with them why they think like that, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it...

It is still mildly annoying, though.
Dragon Ball is a goofy kids cartoon from a long time ago. You take it too seriously at your own peril.
Debate the plot, characters, adaptations, dubs, etc., criticise the home video, but never lose sight of the fact that it's all just entertainment. You're supposed to enjoy it. If you're not enjoying it, just walk away.

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Re: Why do so many Z fans refuse to watch the original Dragon Ball?

Post by majinwarman » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:12 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
majinwarman wrote:
ABED wrote:I know, but apparently there are plenty of fans that are fine with it seeing as how they started 1/3 of the way through the story.
That is their choice and they must live with it.
Sure. And if they refuse to try for a broader understanding of the franchise, that's their loss, and I'm not going to try to push against a brick wall with someone like that. I'm sure it'd be very interesting to discuss with them why they think like that, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it...

It is still mildly annoying, though.
I understand what you mean man. I try to tell them to watch Dragon Ball but they like just watching only Z. Though since Super has come out, people have started to watch Dragon Ball to understand the references Super make about the past.
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Re: Why do so many Z fans refuse to watch the original Dragon Ball?

Post by Robo4900 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:12 pm

majinwarman wrote:
Robo4900 wrote:
majinwarman wrote: That is their choice and they must live with it.
Sure. And if they refuse to try for a broader understanding of the franchise, that's their loss, and I'm not going to try to push against a brick wall with someone like that. I'm sure it'd be very interesting to discuss with them why they think like that, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it...

It is still mildly annoying, though.
I understand what you mean man. I try to tell them to watch Dragon Ball but they like just watching only Z. Though since Super has come out, people have started to watch Dragon Ball to understand the references Super make about the past.
I hope that's happening. And with Super's hiatus, most fans would have at least 20 minutes a week free in which they're not watching Super, so surely now is the perfect time for OG DB to have a massive boost in popularity in the USA?
I'm honestly quite surprised Funi haven't been pushing this in marketing.
Dragon Ball is a goofy kids cartoon from a long time ago. You take it too seriously at your own peril.
Debate the plot, characters, adaptations, dubs, etc., criticise the home video, but never lose sight of the fact that it's all just entertainment. You're supposed to enjoy it. If you're not enjoying it, just walk away.

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Re: Why do so many Z fans refuse to watch the original Dragon Ball?

Post by ABED » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:38 pm

I don't know how much marketing has to do with it. FUNi's treatment of DB certainly hasn't helped. It seems the perception is that it is in fact a prequel to DBZ.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Why do so many Z fans refuse to watch the original Dragon Ball?

Post by ekrolo2 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:53 pm

The only thing that might give the pre-Raditz stuff a boost is if the newer material brought something back from it as a back deal, probably in a villain role to make people go "Holy shit! I better see where this comes from!".
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Re: Why do so many Z fans refuse to watch the original Dragon Ball?

Post by BWri » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:22 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:The only thing that might give the pre-Raditz stuff a boost is if the newer material brought something back from it as a back deal, probably in a villain role to make people go "Holy shit! I better see where this comes from!".
They should bring back Tao with a power boost and make him a full fledged Android like #17 and #18. We see how broken #17 can get, imagine if a real martial artist like Tao had that power.

*edit* or Spike the Devilman and make him a big time ally or antihero
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