I love the Funimation Dub pre-Kai

[90sDBZ]

You keep saying the dub was a success. It was DRAGON BALL that was a success. DB has been a success everywhere no matter what was done with it. DBZ got the most cheap and slipshod dub imaginable. Cheap music, cheap (and miscast) actors, and even cheap DVD/VHS cover art. Yet, despite all that, DBZ found huge success in the US. It seems that you're trying to claim that it's a success BECAUSE of those changes. Casual fans weren't watching the dub. They watched DBZ.

It was objectively not a quality dub. It was cheap. The actors were chosen because they were inexpensive and the talent pool was incredibly small, and they were hired not for their talent but for their ability to sound like the previous cast. None of this is remotely controversial. It's very well known. I don't know if you were around back when DBZ was first airing, but fans weren't enthusiastic about the new voices when season 3 started. At some point, that changed and people DBZ fans came to love them. That leads me to believe it's nostalgia of the casual audience. It's what they grew up with.

And why aren't they nostalgic for the Menza/Jonson scores too?

They weren't there when DB was at its peak in the US.

Are they somehow objective about voice acting but not music?

I know you want to claim this is a slam dunk argument, but plenty of people are nostalgic towards the previous cast.

I started watching in the year 2000 when the Saban dub started airing in the UK. Although I didn't have internet access until 2004, I did go back and check out many old forums and knew all too well how hated the Funimation dub was by the online fandom at the time. The thing that you've failed to mention is the fact that those fans were and still are a minority. The overwhelming majority of the audience from the US and other English speaking countries where kids too young to be posting on the internet until several years later.

If I had to give it a rough estimate I'd say the dub fans began to emerge online in their masses around 2007, by which time they were old enough to post online and more and more houses were getting access to the internet.

And again I have to stress I'm not attributing the entirety of the dubs success to the changes. I'm just pointing out that stuff like the Faulconer score and the various dub lines are still brought up fondly to this day. When you look at dub fans conversing amongst themselves you don't hear them say "DBZ was awesome. Except the music and stupid lines". On the contrary those things are brought up and praised regularly, especially the Faulconer score which many say fits the show perfectly and that the show would feel incomplete without it.

Your whole counterargument hinges on some outlandish claim that everyone who still likes the aspects of the old dub is a slave to nostalgia, and incapable of rational thought even after 15 years. At the same time you are somehow immune to having your judgement clouded and understand all of their minds better than they do themselves.

Where did you get your data to arrive at this conclusion? What survey did you conduct? What questions did you ask? How did you interpret and relate the answers to nostalgia blindness?

[MasenkoHA]

I want to point out go on Youtube and look at the comments there are definitely people who slam Kai for the voices despite only 4 major voice changes (3 of the 4. being improvements) and actually having the gall to say Sabat and Schemmel’s performances were better in Z than Kai which is laughable

As far as music. The Johnson score didn’t pop up until circa 2005? Much more people are nostalgic for the Faulconer score because its older and present during the height of Z’s popularity in the U.S

I wouldn’t go as far as say Faulconer’s score is objectively bad (even though I think its terrible and its trying so hard and failing to be Kristopher Carter’s Batman Beyond score) but I absolutely think a vast majority of people who prefer it it’s because it’s what they grew up with and are accustomed to.

It’s like when the old Sailor Moon dub switched to the Japanese bgm and fans hated it despite it being a clearly superior score (and I liked SM’s dub score better than I like Faulconer and Menza) and its obvious they were just used to the replacement score.

Had Funimation left the score alone I doubt anyone would have mind it. The draw for most kids was the action and violence and characters bleeding.

[thaman91]

The nostalgia argument is so bizarre. And instead of making the claim and then actually trying to support it with evidence, there's this strange tactic being used of "It's definitely nostalgia, now you need to prove that it's not". That's not how burden of proof works. You make the claim, you provide the evidence. And when people actually try to play into this game and give evidence of genuine enjoyment of the score....it's only met with "yeah but that doesn't prove it's not nostalgia, it still could've been because....peak popularity!" The fact is, anything at all can be explained away by "nostalgia". It's one of the most ridiculous catch-all arguments I've ever seen.

And, to play into this futile game myself...what about people who were introduced to it & liked it via the Orange Bricks? What about people who saw Kai first and then experienced and enjoyed the Faulconer score? Hell, there's someone who experienced the Faulconer score well after watching Kai, and liked it so much that he decided to do an entire fan project of putting that music into Kai. Come to think of it, the success of that project really weakens the nostalgia argument. Because it shows that people are "objective" enough to like the Kai voice acting and accuracy.....yet still nostalgia blinded about their musical preferences? How does that make sense? Surely if you're nostalgic about something, you're nostalgic about the entirety of that thing? Why are fans of that project only nostalgic about the music but not the older voice acting and dialogue? Why do they miss Vegeta's SSJ theme but not "Krillin's in da house"? Why do they miss the "Ginyu Transformation" theme but not "Cat loves food"? Now, don't get me wrong, a lot of people do miss the older lines, which is fine. But what I'm trying to say is that all Faulconer fans can't be painted with the same brush. Even among them, there is variation in preferences, and there is actual nuance in opinions.

About the Menza score, it started to air in 2003, which is the same year that the Z dub ended. So somehow, the "peak popularity" ended in the span of a few months which irrefutably explains why there's very little love (or "nostalgia") for this score...sure. I personally remember (when I was a kid) noticing and enjoying the scores for all the Dragon Ball shows (especially Faulconer, but it also includes Wasserman & Kikuchi)...that is, until Menza came around. But hey, maybe the earlier stuff got ingrained into my "nostalgia" or something.....except I later watched Kai and enjoyed Yamamoto as well. And the funny thing is, I'm not the only one with that experience! Also, wasn't GT actually quite popular in the US? The "peak" may have been over, but that doesn't mean it wasn't successful. It had 64 episodes to get people devoted to Menza, yet we see very little love for that score nowadays.

About youtube comments, they can always be selectively chosen to suite a narrative. Some people think Schemmel was better in Z than Kai? Boom, nostalgia exists and is a major force that shapes people's opinions!......Except there are also plenty of comments saying the opposite whilst also expressing preference for the Faulconer score. But let's ignore those because they don't fit the narrative. Let's just focus on the people who have only watched the Z dub and misunderstand the Japanese version because those types better fit our argument that Faulconer fans are nostalgia-blinded.

[ABED]

If you are going say I claimed things like the only reason people prefer the dub is due to nostalgia, then this isn't worth it. That's not what I'm claiming. It's definitely a reason, though.

especially the Faulconer score which many say fits the show perfectly and that the show would feel incomplete without it.

I don't know why I have to keep repeating that it's due to misconceptiosn, many of which are regurgitated on this very forum. If it sounds condescending, I'm fine with that. They can like what they want, but that doesn't make them right that DB and DBZ are two different shows or that Goku is Japanese Superman.

and incapable of rational thought even after 15 years. At the same time you are somehow immune to having your judgement clouded and understand all of their minds better than they do themselves.

People aren't nostalgic after 1 year. Nostalgia is by definition fond feelings after a significant passage of time. I'm not immune to nostalgia, I was just never fond of the Faulconer score.

Your evidence is just as anecdotal as mine. I can just as easily dismiss your assertions that people today are still fond of the music but not as fond of the old performances.

If your point ultimately boils down to "the dub was a success and people like the music", what are you looking to get from this conversation? My hope is that you at least concede that DB would've been a success regardless and most of those fans who do love the dub would've enjoyed it regardless. You can't miss what you never had. DB has been a massive success around the world with varying degrees of alterations, and in North America alone it's had several composers and two casts, one of which is noticeably more inexperienced. Yet, it has always found success and would've been a massive success no matter what FUNi did.

Thaman91, this isn't a court of law. We don't have burden of proof. Perhaps we're being hyperbolic, but I don't think anyone here is claiming it's ALL due to nostalgia, but to say nostalgia doesn't play a heavy role in these issues is silly. You're knocking down a strawman, especially when you make arguments such as if someone is nostalgic about something, it's the whole thing. That's not how that has ever worked.
-The Menza score started in 2005, not 2003.
-Your point about the Menza score in GT doesn't hold water because it's GT. People don't have fond memories of that show, by and large. No one is saying people don't like the Faulconer score itself, just that the preference for that score playing with DBZ over the original is mostly due to nostalgia and other misconceptions about the story itself. Why would anyone be nostalgic for Menza's GT score when they aren't nostalgic for GT?

[thaman91]

If you are going say I claimed things like the only reason people prefer the dub is due to nostalgia, then this isn't worth it. That's not what I'm claiming. It's definitely a reason, though.

I know you didn't say it's the only reason. You did say that it was the main reason though. Check your post.

Thaman91, this isn't a court of law. We don't have burden of proof. Perhaps we're being hyperbolic, but I don't think anyone here is claiming it's ALL due to nostalgia, but to say nostalgia doesn't play a heavy role in these issues is silly. You're knocking down a strawman, especially when you make arguments that if someone is nostalgic about something, it's the whole thing. That's not how that has ever worked.

Again, you claimed it was the main reason and others have claimed that the "vast majority" of people like it for nostalgic reasons. And of course it's not a court of law. The "burden of proof" idea is simply one I'm using to judge arguments. And if people make sweeping generalizations without providing evidence, then their arguments are weak. Simple as that. They are, of course, free to continue making these arguments. But the fragility of said arguments will be called out. And I'm knocking down a strawman? That's rich. A strawman is when you act like the argument is one thing and attack that instead of what the argument actually is. Me talking about the scope of nostalgia is not a strawman; it's an exploration into how nostalgia actually works. Nostalgia is an uncritical fondness for something in the past. So when people are "nostalgic" for a very specific part of the show but not other parts, then this indicates that there's a greater cognitive process going on than just an uncritical fondness for the past.

-The Menza score started in 2005.
-Your point about the Menza score in GT doesn't hold water because it's GT. People don't have fond memories of that show, by and large. No one is saying people don't like the Faulconer score itself, just that the preference for that score playing with DBZ over the original is mostly due to nostalgia and other misconceptions about the story itself. Why would anyone be nostalgic for Menza's GT score when they don't like GT?

You are wrong. The Menza score started in 2003. Check your facts. And again, GT was successful in the US. If there are a large amount of people who watched and liked GT, then there should be at least a decent level of nostalgia. But for how successful it was (I think even compared to Dragon Ball? in the US anyway), there's very little love for that score.

[ABED]

You are wrong. The Menza score started in 2003. Check your facts. And again, GT was successful in the US. If there are a large amount of people who watched and liked GT, then there should be at least a decent level of nostalgia. But for how successful it was (I think even compared to Dragon Ball? in the US anyway), there's very little love for that score.

Menza score for DBZ since that's the series in question. GT was successful ratings wise, but it's never been loved. It was coming right off of Z's tale, so it stands to reason it would be a success ratings wise.

Edit: I just remembered Menza didn't score the DBZ redub of season 1 and 2. That was Johnson. I was thinking of something else, but doesn't fundamentally change my point since GT is a very different series than DBZ

Nostalgia is an uncritical fondness for something in the past

No it's not. It's simply fond feelings for the past. I have fond feelings for my grandparents' place and would love to see it again despite knowing it was a shithole. If you don't know what nostalgia is, then of course that is going to color your perception of our arguments. And you don't have to love something wholesale to be nostalgic for it.

You did say that it was the main reason though

And I hold to that, as well as people's misperceptions about the story they watched. Wanna bet that there's a lot of overlap in the Venn Diagram between people who prefer the dub music and performances and those that believe DB is mostly like the early DB arcs and DBZ is non-stop action and sci-fi? Many of those people have even said DB has a lot of martial arts, whereas DBZ has far less, since they don't fight hand to hand. Most aren't aware of the Wuxia genre. Some look down on the original score because they think it sounds like an old 60's/70's Kung Fu movie! That's the point because that's what DB is. Of course many of those people will prefer a "non-stop action" score if your perception of what the show is if you don't get the show you're watching.

[thaman91]

Menza score for DBZ since that's the series in question. GT was successful ratings wise, but it's never been loved. It was coming right off of Z's tale, so it stands to reason it would be a success ratings wise.

It doesn't need to be as loved as DB or Z to still have a significant amount of fans. And even after the TV airings, weren't the home releases also successful? Even more so than Dragon Ball? I pose these as questions because I don't know for sure.

No it's not. It's simply fond feelings for the past. I have fond feelings for my grandparents' place and would love to see it again despite knowing it was a shithole. If you don't know what nostalgia is, then of course that is going to color your perception of our arguments. And you don't have to love something wholesale to be nostalgic for it.

I don't think we're saying different things here regarding what nostalgia is. When I say "uncritical", it's because "fond feelings" often tend to overpower critical thought. And no, you don't have to be nostalgic about the entire thing.....but a significant amount of people showing very specific preference towards a very specific aspect of the dub is quite telling.

And you don't have to love something wholesale to be nostalgic for it.

This right here is such a classic example of the nostalgia argument in all its ridiculous glory. Anyone could spend hours and hours giving examples of why something is loved, only to be retorted with "Yeah, but that doesn't mean it's not nostalgia. It could still be nostalgia". Anything at all can be hand-waved away with "Yeah but that doesn't disqualify it from being nostalgia". It's about as ridiculous as me asking "Yeah but how do you know for sure that there isn't an invisible unicorn flying through the sky right now?" Well there are planes in the sky so surely they would cause plane crashes. "The invisible unicorn doesn't have to follow the laws of physics. It could be invisible and not be able interact with the physical world. You don't know".

[ABED]

This right here is such a classic example of the nostalgia argument in all its ridiculous glory.

No, it's just an acknowledgement about what it is! That would be like saying to like something is to like it all. Why does nostalgia require someone like everything and not selected elements? Surely if you don't enjoy every aspect of something you can still be nostalgic for it. Your last statement makes no sense as this isn't about an arbitrary assertion. it's an acknowledgement of what nostalgia is. Even taking the dub out of the equation, you can be nostalgic for it without liking everything. For instance, you can have fond feelings for it while never at any point liking the filler.

You are both hung up on the nostalgia argument and rarely if ever make a counter point about misconceptions created by the dub.

When I say "uncritical", it's because "fond feelings" often tend to overpower critical thought.

"Tend to" being the choice phrase.

One of the big reason I'm suspect of your and 90sDBZ's analysis is because one thing I've noticed over the years is that people are good about telling WHAT they feel, but not necessarily WHY they feel something. I also fall into that category. I know how a work of art makes me feel, but I often don't know exactly why it makes me feel that way.

[thaman91]

You're conflating critical and financial success.

I'm not conflating the two. I'm simply saying GT was successful and it has its fans. How many fans, we don't really know.

This right here is such a classic example of the nostalgia argument in all its ridiculous glory.

No, it's just an acknowledgement about what it is! That would be like saying to like something is to like it all. Why does nostalgia require someone like everything and not selected elements? Surely if you don't enjoy every aspect of something you can still be nostalgic for it. Your last statement makes no sense as this isn't about an arbitrary assertion. it's an acknowledgement of what nostalgia is. Even taking the dub out of the equation, you can be nostalgic for it without liking everything. For instance, you can have fond feelings for it while never at any point liking the filler.

My point was not necessarily about that specific thing you said, but rather about what seems to be typical in these nostalgia assertions. You spend quite a few sentences explaining why specific patterns of preference don't disqualify something from being nostalgia. But....what was your reasoning again for why you think it is nostalgia that's driving the large amount of people to like the Kai Faulconer project? When they say that they feel Kai has better dialogue+acting but prefer Faulconer, do you think they're saying one thing but are actually feeling something else without knowing it? How do you know this? Because first, I'd like to establish your argument and evidence in support of your claim before you start on this whole "well that doesn't mean it's not nostalgia" spree.

You are both hung up on the nostalgia argument and rarely if ever make a counter point about misconceptions created by the dub.

The reason I don't make counterarguments to that is because I think there are misconceptions created by the dub. It wasn't very accurate, especially at the beginning, which creates different perceptions towards characters for dub-only watchers. But how can you jump from that to the argument of people liking the score mainly out of nostalgia? There's a logical leap being made that doesn't quite make sense. One can watch it, despite knowing about the inaccurate portrayals in characters & tone, and like what the score is doing anyway even though it's not true to the original version.

When I say "uncritical", it's because "fond feelings" often tend to overpower critical thought.

"
"Tend to" being the choice phrase.

One of the big reason I'm suspect of your and 90sDBZ's analysis is because one thing I've noticed over the years is that people are good about telling WHAT they feel, but not necessarily WHY they feel something. I also fall into that category. I know how a work of art makes me feel, but I often don't know exactly why it makes me feel that way.

I'm not sure what you mean by being "suspect" of my analysis. But I agree with you here. It is difficult to sometimes articulate why we like things. For example, I love the music of John Williams, but I can't really articulate why beyond "The themes are great and make me feel things". Then you have people who understand music being able to actually break down the chord structure and all that. I suspect that the more we learn about the fundamentals of what we like and how it was created, the closer we can get to figuring out the why of it.

[8000 Saiyan]

The fandom and series would be better off if it never existed.

Speak for yourself. I don't see what there is to support this beyond your own personal preference. At the end of the day the vast majority of people who watched that dub still love it to this day. The dub was only "harmful" because you as an individual don't like it, and that has nothing to do with the so called greater good or whether it had a positive ot negative impact on the lives of the masses.

Honestly people act as if the dub destroyed lives. This is why I roll my eyes most of the time when I see someone act as if a fictional movie or show caused real life damage based souly on the fact they didn't like it as an individual. There are obvious exceptions to this such as movies that present certain groups of people in a negative light and have a direct impact on how those people are perceived in the real world. But this is a cartoon about a bunch of guys pummeling the shit out of one another over some magic balls that was altered to feel more heroic. Hell if anything the dub is even less harmful than the original for turning the cast into less selfish role models. I know many dub fans view Goku as a role model, and I've seen comments from people saying Faulconer's SS3 theme inspired them to improve their lives.

And then there's the infamous portrayal of General Blue in the original, which was toned down considerably in the dub for the better.

Well, you do act as if the Westwood dub did the same thing.

[ABED]

But how can you jump from that to the argument of people liking the score mainly out of nostalgia?

I didn't, but even if I did, it's not a leap. If your view of the series is built on a lot of misconceptions and have little to no interest in the original and still insist the dub score and dialog and voices are better or more fitting despite more knowledgeable people pointing out the differences, then what other explanation is there? I accept that plenty of people enjoy the score on its own and that's not my issue with it.

I'm not sure what you mean by being "suspect" of my analysis.

It means I'm inclined to believe your analysis isn't correct without much other evidence. All people saying they like the Faulconer score says is they like the score. The reasons they say boil down to things like it accentuates the action better. With the voices, it's usually some complaint about Goku being voiced by a woman in the original. I'm suspicious of your claims regarding the Kai/Faulconer project. How is that one thing proof that there isn't as much love for the voices as there is the music?

[90sDBZ]

The fandom and series would be better off if it never existed.

Speak for yourself. I don't see what there is to support this beyond your own personal preference. At the end of the day the vast majority of people who watched that dub still love it to this day. The dub was only "harmful" because you as an individual don't like it, and that has nothing to do with the so called greater good or whether it had a positive ot negative impact on the lives of the masses.

Honestly people act as if the dub destroyed lives. This is why I roll my eyes most of the time when I see someone act as if a fictional movie or show caused real life damage based souly on the fact they didn't like it as an individual. There are obvious exceptions to this such as movies that present certain groups of people in a negative light and have a direct impact on how those people are perceived in the real world. But this is a cartoon about a bunch of guys pummeling the shit out of one another over some magic balls that was altered to feel more heroic. Hell if anything the dub is even less harmful than the original for turning the cast into less selfish role models. I know many dub fans view Goku as a role model, and I've seen comments from people saying Faulconer's SS3 theme inspired them to improve their lives.

And then there's the infamous portrayal of General Blue in the original, which was toned down considerably in the dub for the better.

Well, you do act as if the Westwood dub did the same thing.

I don't believe I've ever gone as far as that in critisizing it. It's definitely not my cup of tea despite growing up on it, and if it didn't exist I wouldn't be shedding any tears. On a personal level that wouldn't bother me. But I'll acknowledge it has a really passionate and dedicated following which is enough to justify its existence. And I will say it got noticebly better at the tail end of the run.

[ABED]

Here's another point regarding score - you can't think about score in isolation. I know people like it, but how many people even after truly understanding DB and its influences, story, and characters would say the changes to dialog, characterization, and music are better than the original?

I can imagine that there are plenty of people that even after knowing all that still prefer dub, but the question is why would they like a cheap and disintegrated product?

I understand people like stuff that's different than me, but I've never found "it has its fans, that's enough to justify its existence" a convincing argument.

[90sDBZ]

I've never found "it has its fans, that's enough to justify its existence" a convincing argument.

Why not? If something makes someone, even just one person happy then that's value. If you can't measure value in happiness/pleasure then truthfully what can you measure it in?

[thaman91]

But how can you jump from that to the argument of people liking the score mainly out of nostalgia?

I didn't, but even if I did, it's not a leap. If your view of the series is built on a lot of misconceptions and have little to no interest in the original and still insist the dub score and dialog and voices are better or more fitting despite more knowledgeable people pointing out the differences, then what other explanation is there? I accept that plenty of people enjoy the score on its own and that's not my issue with it.

To these people, I think they need to become better informed before even engaging in such discussions. That whole situation is a wildly different and multi-layered issue to the one we're discussing. But I think this may be somewhat of a strawman. We had been talking about the ability to like the score & its usage in the dub and whether it's due to nostalgia. Bringing up people like you mentioned is an extreme example and not really what's being discussed.

I'm not sure what you mean by being "suspect" of my analysis.

It means I'm inclined to believe your analysis isn't correct without much other evidence. All people saying they like the Faulconer score says is they like the score. The reasons they say boil down to things like it accentuates the action better. With the voices, it's usually some complaint about Goku being voiced by a woman in the original. I'm suspicious of your claims regarding the Kai/Faulconer project. How is that one thing proof that there isn't as much love for the voices as there is the music?

That doesn't encompass all the arguments about why they like the score. And the point of the Kai Faulconer project is that the creator saw Kai first with Yamamoto & Kikuchi and wasn't impressed by the music. Then he saw the Z dub with Faulconer and liked the music more but assessed that the acting and dialogue were better in Kai. So he decided to do a project that mixed the two. That's the premise of the project. So what is it that makes you think that the popularity of this project is due to nostalgia for the Faulconer score rather than people genuinely thinking that the acting/dialogue/music combo is at its best in that project?

[MasenkoHA]

The nostalgia argument is so bizarre. And instead of making the claim and then actually trying to support it with evidence, there's this strange tactic being used of "It's definitely nostalgia, now you need to prove that it's not". That's not how burden of proof works. You make the claim, you provide the evidence. And when people actually try to play into this game and give evidence of genuine enjoyment of the score....it's only met with "yeah but that doesn't prove it's not nostalgia, it still could've been because....peak popularity!" The fact is, anything at all can be explained away by "nostalgia". It's one of the most ridiculous catch-all arguments I've ever seen.

But the argument isn’t “people only like the Faulconer score because of nostalgia” musical taste is subjective. I, for the most part can’t stand the Faulconer score and Perfect Cell’s theme in particular theme causes me physic pain in my ears but I think the Super Buu theme is fire. Someone else might think the Faulconer score is top notch and Perfect Cell’s theme is the bees knees but Super Buu’s theme is the one huge swing and miss.

The argument that I, and I assume Abed (but I don’t speak for him) are trying to make is that there’s a significant amount of fans who only accept Faulconer (or music in that style) for DBZ because of nostalgia.

Thinking the Faulconer score is better than Kikuchi by ots own merits? I disagee so hard it’s not even funny but it’s not objectively wrong.

Saying it fits better? No that’s just incorrect. Fits the dub better maybe (I think the dub is more tolerable with the Japanese music but its polishing a turd)

What about people who saw Kai first and then experienced and enjoyed the Faulconer score? Hell, there's someone who experienced the Faulconer score well after watching Kai, and liked it so much that he decided to do an entire fan project of putting that music into Kai. Come to think of it, the success of that project really weakens the nostalgia argument.

I’m sure there are people who heard the Kikuchi and Yamato score first (although Kai’s use of Kikuchi’s music is fucking terrible and made me hate it at first until Ingot a chance to properly listen to it with the first 5 Z movies) and then heard Faulconer and decided they liked Faulconer better. They’re completely different musical scores and styles and the more techno feel of Faulconer may appeal to some people better.

Because it shows that people are "objective" enough to like the Kai voice acting and accuracy.....yet still nostalgia blinded about their musical preferences? How does that make sense? Surely if you're nostalgic about something, you're nostalgic about the entirety of that thing? Why are fans of that project only nostalgic about the music but not the older voice acting and dialogue?
Why do they miss Vegeta's SSJ theme but not "Krillin's in da house"? Why do they miss the "Ginyu Transformation" theme but not "Cat loves food"? Now, don't get me wrong, a lot of people do miss the older lines, which is fine. But what I'm trying to say is that all Faulconer fans can't be painted with the same brush. Even among them, there is variation in preferences, and there is actual nuance in opinions.

But there are huge segments of the fandom who are nostalgic for the Z dub despite some shitty ass voicr acting and cringe dialog (more so in s3)

I feel like you’re zeroing in on the Faulconer score and not the fact that’s there a ridiculous amount of nostalgia blindness toward the Z dub in general and the Faulconer music is only part of it.

About the Menza score, it started to air in 2003, which is the same year that the Z dub ended. So somehow, the "peak popularity" ended in the span of a few months which irrefutably explains why there's very little love (or "nostalgia") for this score...sure. I personally remember (when I was a kid) noticing and enjoying the scores for all the Dragon Ball shows (especially Faulconer, but it also includes Wasserman & Kikuchi)...that is, until Menza came around. But hey, maybe the earlier stuff got ingrained into my "nostalgia" or something.....except I later watched Kai and enjoyed Yamamoto as well. And the funny thing is, I'm not the only one with that experience! Also, wasn't GT actually quite popular in the US? The "peak" may have been over, but that doesn't mean it wasn't successful. It had 64 episodes to get people devoted to Menza, yet we see very little love for that score nowadays.

GT was nowhere near as popular as Z. That’s like comparing Powert Rangers Zeo to Mighty Morphin Power Rangers

About youtube comments, they can always be selectively chosen to suite a narrative. Some people think Schemmel was better in Z than Kai? Boom, nostalgia exists and is a major force that shapes people's opinions!......Except there are also plenty of comments saying the opposite whilst also expressing preference for the Faulconer score. But let's ignore those because they don't fit the narrative. Let's just focus on the people who have only watched the Z dub and misunderstand the Japanese version because those types better fit our argument that Faulconer fans are nostalgia-blinded.

The segment that acknowledge Kai’s dub is superior but think the Faulconer score is better certaintly exist but they’re the vast minority compared to Everything Z dub is great everything in the Kai dub is awful crowd

[ABED]

I've never found "it has its fans, that's enough to justify its existence" a convincing argument.

Why not? If something makes someone, even just one person happy then that's value. If you can't measure value in happiness/pleasure then truthfully what can you measure it in?

You can't miss something that never existed. And it's not like a DBZ that always had a competent dub is purely hypothetical. We had the first three movies done by the Ocean Group. I don't think that value is greater than the value of keeping the original product in tact. Think of pan and scan. Lots of people preferred it to widescreen because pan and scan filled up their TV back when TV's were squares. Which is better? Keeping the movies as they were meant to be seen or satisfying people happy because they want the image to fill up their screen? Keeping the original intent of the artist is an argument I find much more convincing.

That whole situation is a wildly different and multi-layered issue to the one we're discussing. But I think this may be somewhat of a strawman. We had been talking about the ability to like the score & its usage in the dub and whether it's due to nostalgia. Bringing up people like you mentioned is an extreme example and not really what's being discussed.

These aren't hermetically sealed issues. They like the dub because they have a skewed about what DBZ is BY THE DUB. You've made this whole thing about the nostalgia argument, but that's just one. The issues and examples I brought up aren't extreme and they are what we are discussing. If your conception of DBZ is that it's a superhero action show and not a martial arts fantasy based in a Chinese genre, then it's not surprising you're going to prefer the dub.

[thaman91]

But the argument isn’t “people only like the Faulconer score because of nostalgia” musical taste is subjective. I, for the most part can’t stand the Faulconer score and Perfect Cell’s theme in particular theme causes me physic pain in my ears but I think the Super Buu theme is fire. Someone else might think the Faulconer score is top notch and Perfect Cell’s theme is the bees knees but Super Buu’s theme is the one huge swing and miss.

The argument that I, and I assume Abed (but I don’t speak for him) are trying to make is that there’s a significant amount of fans who only accept Faulconer (or music in that style) for DBZ because of nostalgia.

Again, and I've said this before, I know that you both aren't saying it's the only reason. But you are saying that it's the main reason. Or that it's the main reason for most people who like it (although now it seems you have downgraded this to "a significant amount of fans"). And what I'm saying is that without any shred of evidence to support your claims, these generalizations are rather weak.

Because it shows that people are "objective" enough to like the Kai voice acting and accuracy.....yet still nostalgia blinded about their musical preferences? How does that make sense? Surely if you're nostalgic about something, you're nostalgic about the entirety of that thing? Why are fans of that project only nostalgic about the music but not the older voice acting and dialogue?
Why do they miss Vegeta's SSJ theme but not "Krillin's in da house"? Why do they miss the "Ginyu Transformation" theme but not "Cat loves food"? Now, don't get me wrong, a lot of people do miss the older lines, which is fine. But what I'm trying to say is that all Faulconer fans can't be painted with the same brush. Even among them, there is variation in preferences, and there is actual nuance in opinions.

But there are huge segments of the fandom who are nostalgic for the Z dub despite some shitty ass voicr acting and cringe dialog (more so in s3)

I feel like you’re zeroing in on the Faulconer score and not the fact that’s there a ridiculous amount of nostalgia blindness toward the Z dub in general and the Faulconer music is only part of it.

I'm zeroing in on arguments that I feel are weak. If you're going to claim that most people only like it because of nostalgia, then I'm going to call out the argument as being rather fragile. How exactly are you arriving at that conclusion? Youtube comments? Do Youtube comments represent everyone who has watched the show? Or are those who are less objective in their analysis more willing to make Youtube comments? Is there a statistic on this? What about people who watched the show as kids, enjoyed it, and are now too busy to engage in the online conversation? If they revisit the show and find that they like a lot of the dialogue and music, are they nostalgia-blinded?

And how exactly would you know whether or not there's a huge segment of the fandom that prefers Kai dialogue/acting but likes Faulconer more? Until rather recently, there wasn't much of a way for them to express this on Youtube since videos would either be Z or Kai.

And even if they do like things about the Z dub more than the Kai dub, so what? I myself like the slower pacing of the dialogue and I actually think some of the lines are better in the former, despite the acting being overall better in the latter. For example, I like Vegeta's line in the dub "Let me ask you, does a machine like yourself ever experience fear?" over his Kai dub line "I am curious. Are androids capable of feeling anything akin to real fear?".

GT was nowhere near as popular as Z. That’s like comparing Powert Rangers Zeo to Mighty Morphin Power Rangers

It was popular though. Wasn't it more popular in the US than it was in Japan? Yet....there's way more of a Tokunaga fanbase than there is a Menza fanbase. It wasn't as massive as Z, but it was a hit. Yet the Menza fans are a rare sight.

The segment that acknowledge Kai’s dub is superior but think the Faulconer score is better certaintly exist but they’re the vast minority compared to Everything Z dub is great everything in the Kai dub is awful crowd

How do you know this? What are you basing this off of? Anecdotal evidence from select Youtube videos? Please. What outlet did this particular segment even have prior to the Kai Faulconer project to express themselves?

The other thing is that there's an entire Youtube ecosystem that's not being taken into account. Isn't Youtube the place where people are typically more insulting and leave petty comments? And these types of comments tend to get reinforced with the "like" system. So I would ask, how much of the Youtube comments are simply people who have been conditioned by pettiness and tribalism to praise their dub and insult another, critical thinking be damned? And how much can you then extrapolate this type of petty tribal behavior to mean that they only like the dub or its music for nostalgia? For example, let's say somebody has only watched the dub, and someone leaves a comment on a dub video saying "Faulconer sux, Kikuchi is the best". Now, this dub fan, without even having watched the Japanese version, may feel inclined to act out a "revenge" of sorts by commenting with the opposite on Japanese videos. And pretty soon, there becomes this tribalistic ecosystem comprised of dub fans, sub fans, and Kai fans saying things in support of their party lines. But how can you then extrapolate that sort of tribalistic behavior to mean that the thing they like is mainly due to nostalgia? Is it their initial preference or their current behavior towards others that's being motivated by irrational thought? There's more nuance to this situation than it appears at first glance.

[ABED]

And what I'm saying is that without any shred of evidence to support your claims, these generalizations are rather weak.

Fine. We don't have quantitative evidence or peer reviewed studies. Now what? If your point is ultimately that we're making arbitrary assertions that can just be dismissed because we don't have evidence, why are you responding this much?

What we are fundamentally arguing is that someone who got what DB is would not think the Faulconer score is more fitting. The only reason to think it fits better is because misconceptions which they hold because they are either only a casual fan or due to nostalgia.

[thaman91]

And what I'm saying is that without any shred of evidence to support your claims, these generalizations are rather weak.

Fine. We don't have quantitative evidence or peer reviewed studies. Now what? If your point is ultimately that we're making arbitrary assertions that can just be dismissed because we don't have evidence, why are you responding this much?

Why does anyone respond to anything on a discussion forum? Why did you respond to my points? If there's disagreement on what's being said then this is the place to discuss it right? And it's not just to "dismiss" your points. I've also offered alternate interpretations to various types of Youtube behaviors.

What we are fundamentally arguing is that someone who got what DB is would not think the Faulconer score is more fitting. The only reason to think it fits better is because misconceptions which they hold because they are either only a casual fan or due to nostalgia.

And I kind of agree with this part of your argument. There are exceptions, but the "misconceptions" argument is one I've agreed with.