Why Do fans overlook the depth or Character Development in Dragon Ball?

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Why Do fans overlook the depth or Character Development in Dragon Ball?

Post by Ripper 30 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:12 am

When we mention Dragon Ball everyone only talks about screaming, Fighting, power ups or muscles. while it's true that Dragon Ball has all of those thing but why do majority assume that, Fighting is the only thing Dragon Ball had?
why do not only Casual Non DB fans but even the DB fans don't dig deeper other than new forms and have this kind of stereotype about the franchise "Dragon Ball is all about Chad-ness and Character development or Depth is nonexistent here", for almost every other anime like One Piece, Naruto, Fullmetal Alchemist, Hunter x Hunter or Yuu Yuu Hakusho everyone talks about Characterization, Depth and all but they just assume Dragon Ball is all mindless action which isn't supposed to be serious,when in reality that's not true, Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Gohan, Future Trunks they all have got depth and character development to them. Even plot/story is overlooked but i don't know why people don't care for these things. for me Dragon Ball is not about fighting but rather, the character who fight and one way or other they all get developed except few, still the characters in Dragon Ball are the best aspect for me.
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Re: Why Do fans overlook the depth or Character Development in Dragon Ball?

Post by Sin » Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:29 am

I don't think its that fans overlook it, there are just a large number of fans who enjoy the fighting side of the show. There is a massive Youtube community for Dragon Ball, and a lot of videos are based around power levels and fights, these are fans of the series for different reasons than you and I, that's all.

Equally if you look around these boards there are plenty of discussions into character development and the story, it is just how different platforms can provide a method to discuss/convey different discussions. I think the fan base is in a better place than it has been in the past, but because of the scale of Dragon Ball we will always be in an age of misinformation, and there will always be large fan-bases who enjoy the show for different reasons than you.

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Re: Why Do fans overlook the depth or Character Development in Dragon Ball?

Post by Robo4900 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:32 am

Well, to put it bluntly, Funimation's original dub of the show very blatantly dumbed the whole thing down, and de-emphasised the depth and character development in favour of action and other such things that are generally associated with the American verison of Dragon Ball. In fact, in the first two seasons, back when they still had Ocean doing the voices, Saban had them cut the run down significantly, turning 66½ episodes into 53, and in deciding what to cut, the first stuff Funi decided to excise was, of course, character stuff... Add to this the replacement score taking away a lot of the more subtle, slow, very '80s drama vibe, and making it feel more like a fairly generic '90s/'00s action show, and a lot of the depth is de-emphasised in favour of the action; the actual goings-on within the show become secondary to how they're presented.

It's similar to how the framing of certain shots of Transformers turns someone who is arguably the movie's deepest, most complex character into someone who's generally perceived as a flat, dull character who's only there for eyecandy(See here for a more in-depth explanation of what I'm referring to here. If you don't have time for all 15 minutes of it, I believe the first 6 minutes are the main relevant thing to what I'm talking about here. Though if you do have time for the full 15 minutes, you may also find it worthwhile to watch the rest of that video series; it's very interesting).
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Re: Why Do fans overlook the depth or Character Development in Dragon Ball?

Post by KBABZ » Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:41 am

I think the character development is overlooked by a lot of fans because it isn't as overt as other properties, or if it isn't overt, it's contained in the first half they ignore (see: Tien, Yamcha and Chi-Chi). Vegeta's progression from arc villain to true ally takes multiple arcs to complete, but most tend to focus on the rivalry with Goku, something that, outside of being so super-serious about it, hasn't evolved that much, so they see Vegeta as practically the same guy as when he's first introduced. Gohan going from scared four-year-old to an exceptional and brave fighter is similarly downplayed to "REMEMBER THAT BADASS MASENKO HE USED AGAINST FORM TWO FRIEZA?!?!" and other similar statements. Piccolo being a villain too is ignored because his being a villain is cut off almost entirely if you ignore Dragon Ball, as he's otherwise a big green guy who Bulma is briefly afraid of who's a grumpy uncle.

It doesn't really help either that this stuff is further stretched out by hours upon hours of filler content, making it even harder to notice as you watch five episodes a week.

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Re: Why Do fans overlook the depth or Character Development in Dragon Ball?

Post by OhHiRenan » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:22 am

Character development, and theme development at that, tend to be rather subtle in Dragon Ball, but, for whatever reason, there seems to be a consistent pushback against seeing Dragon Ball as a deeper work of art.

Maybe it’s due to Funimation, or the series’ demographic, or just its popularity, but I find it difficult to discuss the original manga’s nuances, and there are nuances, outside of Kanzenshuu.
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Re: Why Do fans overlook the depth or Character Development in Dragon Ball?

Post by Kuwabara » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:45 am

Even putting Funimation's dub aside, most people just don't watch Dragon Ball. They have little to no frame of reference for what's important about anything in Z.
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Re: Why Do fans overlook the depth or Character Development in Dragon Ball?

Post by Kokonoe » Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:03 am

Gohan's character development is actually brilliant writing up to the end of Cell saga. Piccolo's as well.

Both characters are a prime example of great progression and writing in Dragon Ball.

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Re: Why Do fans overlook the depth or Character Development in Dragon Ball?

Post by ekrolo2 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:13 am

Because nobody quite misses the points of Dragon Ball as the people who purport to love Dragon Ball.
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Re: Why Do fans overlook the depth or Character Development in Dragon Ball?

Post by Doctor. » Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:14 am

Character "depth" is a useless term that doesn't really mean anything and character development isn't something Dragon Ball does very well; maybe it does compared to a lot of other Shounen battle anime (and it does, don't get me wrong), but that's not exactly setting a high standard. Dragon Ball's characters are all very charming but that's because of their unique personalities and drives and interesting dynamics and interactions. Though I agree that some of the less superficial aspects of Dragon Ball are overlooked by the general fanbase, it's only because those aspects are there to complement the action.

And also, as OhHiRenan said, Dragon Ball is surprisingly a lot more subtle than its lesser successors.

And Dragon Ball is a victim of mob mentality outside of its fanbase, within the larger elitist anime community. It's seen as a show about mindless action by those who aren't fans, and sometimes that sentiment bleeds into the DB fanbase.

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Re: Why Do fans overlook the depth or Character Development in Dragon Ball?

Post by ekrolo2 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:48 am

Doctor. wrote:And Dragon Ball is a victim of mob mentality outside of its fanbase, within the larger elitist anime community.
Elitist is too insubstantial a word for it, I've seen meetings of the British royal family less pretentious and up their own ass than the western anime community.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Re: Why Do fans overlook the depth or Character Development in Dragon Ball?

Post by Doctor. » Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:15 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:And Dragon Ball is a victim of mob mentality outside of its fanbase, within the larger elitist anime community.
Elitist is too insubstantial a word for it, I've seen meetings of the British royal family less pretentious and up their own ass than the western anime community.
There's this sentiment that you can only like intellectual™ and DEEP™ deconstructions™ and anything that isn't portraying itself as that kind of show should be ridiculed, with the exception of cute girls doing cute things™, of course, because those shows are just FUN™.

It either stems from feeling like their hobby should be validated as a legitimate art form by the masses, which I can empathize with, or from a feeling of wanting to feel smarter than those filthy casuals.

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Re: Why Do fans overlook the depth or Character Development in Dragon Ball?

Post by ekrolo2 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:32 pm

Doctor. wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:And Dragon Ball is a victim of mob mentality outside of its fanbase, within the larger elitist anime community.
Elitist is too insubstantial a word for it, I've seen meetings of the British royal family less pretentious and up their own ass than the western anime community.
There's this sentiment that you can only like intellectual™ and DEEP™ deconstructions™ and anything that isn't portraying itself as that kind of show should be ridiculed, with the exception of cute girls doing cute things™, of course, because those shows are just FUN™.

It either stems from feeling like their hobby should be validated as a legitimate art form by the masses, which I can empathize with, or from a feeling of wanting to feel smarter than those filthy casuals.
Don't forget the fact nothing can be mediocre or okay or just good, a series is either the best or worst thing ever. Because the middle ground foreign concept to the western anime community as good pacing is to Japanese writers.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Re: Why Do fans overlook the depth or Character Development in Dragon Ball?

Post by ABED » Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:18 pm

It seems like some just assume that action and character development can't go hand in hand.
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Re: Why Do fans overlook the depth or Character Development in Dragon Ball?

Post by Ripper 30 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:07 pm

Robo4900 wrote:Well, to put it bluntly, Funimation's original dub of the show very blatantly dumbed the whole thing down, and de-emphasised the depth and character development in favour of action and other such things that are generally associated with the American verison of Dragon Ball. In fact, in the first two seasons, back when they still had Ocean doing the voices, Saban had them cut the run down significantly, turning 66½ episodes into 53, and in deciding what to cut, the first stuff Funi decided to excise was, of course, character stuff... Add to this the replacement score taking away a lot of the more subtle, slow, very '80s drama vibe, and making it feel more like a fairly generic '90s/'00s action show, and a lot of the depth is de-emphasised in favour of the action; the actual goings-on within the show become secondary to how they're presented.

It's similar to how the framing of certain shots of Transformers turns someone who is arguably the movie's deepest, most complex character into someone who's generally perceived as a flat, dull character who's only there for eyecandy(See here for a more in-depth explanation of what I'm referring to here. If you don't have time for all 15 minutes of it, I believe the first 6 minutes are the main relevant thing to what I'm talking about here. Though if you do have time for the full 15 minutes, you may also find it worthwhile to watch the rest of that video series; it's very interesting).
yea saw the clip and totally agreed with what they were trying to do.

Doctor. wrote:Character "depth" is a useless term that doesn't really mean anything and character development isn't something Dragon Ball does very well; maybe it does compared to a lot of other Shounen battle anime (and it does, don't get me wrong), but that's not exactly setting a high standard. Dragon Ball's characters are all very charming but that's because of their unique personalities and drives and interesting dynamics and interactions. Though I agree that some of the less superficial aspects of Dragon Ball are overlooked by the general fanbase, it's only because those aspects are there to complement the action.

And also, as OhHiRenan said, Dragon Ball is surprisingly a lot more subtle than its lesser successors.

And Dragon Ball is a victim of mob mentality outside of its fanbase, within the larger elitist anime community. It's seen as a show about mindless action by those who aren't fans, and sometimes that sentiment bleeds into the DB fanbase.
which are the anime you think Dragon Ball surpasses in Character Development and the more subtlety thing?
I prefer Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, DB/Z/GT Movies, Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball GT in Japanese.
For DBZ Kai and two new Movies I like both Dub and Sub. I Prefer Shunsuke Kikuchi Soundtracks over All other Composers.
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Re: Why Do fans overlook the depth or Character Development in Dragon Ball?

Post by Doctor. » Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:31 pm

Ripper 30 wrote:which are the anime you think Dragon Ball surpasses in Character Development and the more subtlety thing?
There are plenty, not sure it'd be worth it to list them all considering how sloppily Dragon Ball develops its characters. Characters regress or go through the same arc for the convenience of the story Toriyama's writing at the time, or they just abruptly change without much build-up; it's all just very messy most of the time, mostly due to Toriyama's improvised writing style. That's not to say the journey that gets a character from point A to point B isn't entertaining to follow, or that Toriyama can't write neat and compact arcs with a logical beginning, middle and end, but that's not usually how Dragon Ball writes its characters, at least not the ones who get multiple arcs of screentime rather than being shoved to the side following their introductory arc.

Subtlety is a thing Dragon Ball does well, surprisingly so in spite of the over-the-top nature of its setting, action and comedy. Just clarifying, as I'm not sure what you interpreted by what I said.

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Re: Why Do fans overlook the depth or Character Development in Dragon Ball?

Post by ABED » Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:08 am

Other than Gohan, who goes through the same arc?
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Re: Why Do fans overlook the depth or Character Development in Dragon Ball?

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:20 am

ABED wrote:Other than Gohan, who goes through the same arc?
You could make a solid argument that Piccolo and Vegeta get fairly similar arcs, though saying they're the exact same in all respects would be doing both of them a disservice.
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Re: Why Do fans overlook the depth or Character Development in Dragon Ball?

Post by Sin » Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:53 am

ekrolo2 wrote:
ABED wrote:Other than Gohan, who goes through the same arc?
You could make a solid argument that Piccolo and Vegeta get fairly similar arcs, though saying they're the exact same in all respects would be doing both of them a disservice.
When did Piccolo repeat an arc? To me it always felt that once his character had changed it never went back.

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Re: Why Do fans overlook the depth or Character Development in Dragon Ball?

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:22 am

Sin wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
ABED wrote:Other than Gohan, who goes through the same arc?
You could make a solid argument that Piccolo and Vegeta get fairly similar arcs, though saying they're the exact same in all respects would be doing both of them a disservice.
When did Piccolo repeat an arc? To me it always felt that once his character had changed it never went back.
I meant their arcs were similar in comparison to one another but specifically about Piccolo, you're right, he's been fine on the front of repeats.
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Re: Why Do fans overlook the depth or Character Development in Dragon Ball?

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:51 am

Character development in Dragon Ball is very nuanced and not as overt as its shonen battle manga descendants. So the wonderful subtleties, with regards to character progression and general development of the cast, are often never picked up on -- or criminally sold short-- by most fans, who are instead more drawn to the spectacle of the fights.

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