"GT = Goku Time" is an exaggeration.

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Re: "GT = Goku Time" is an exaggeration.

Post by sintzu » Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:16 pm

ricky84 wrote:Did the writers of GT really say that? Holy shit that's stupid smh. Not only does that go against Vegeta's character but it also contradicts saiyan biology in general (limitless potential and the natural urge to keep improving).
If I'm not mistaking it was said in one of the prefect files which are both translated here on the site. They could've simply let Vegeta keep his tail since, you know, it was already there when he went Ssj4 but that would've made someone other than Goku look good and they couldn't have that.
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Re: "GT = Goku Time" is an exaggeration.

Post by Timetraveller » Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:41 pm

sintzu wrote:
Koitsukai wrote:Absolutely was Goku Time and that was a good thing. He already had left everybody in the dust, Vegeta explains later that he stopped chasing after Goku after that N°1 speech in Z.
It's a shame we never got another show that had Vegeta training and trying to keep up after his #1 speech instead of the lazy road GT took by just having him give up. I wonder how that would've turned out. :wink: :roll:

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Kurakaio wrote:Vegeta eventually gets SSJ4, but it's useless and he only serves to fuse into Gogeta, who couldn't get the job done anyway.
If that wasn't bad enough, the writers went a step further by saying Vegeta couldn't transform into it again because he wasn't "special" like Goku. How they were picked to write for DB (or any Shonen for that matter) is something I'll never understand.
Honestly sounds like you as a Vegeta fan were just disappointed the show finally moved past him. It's not bad writing to have a character slowly develop over the course of 200+ episodes to where his family becomes his number one priority over of his obsession with defeating Goku. It's character development, and good character development at that. I saw this on twitter but someone realized that Toriyama symbolized Vegeta's humanization through his clothing (Source: https://twitter.com/SmugStick/status/10 ... 8571259904). Over the series, he is shown losing pieces of his saiyan armor until the show ends with Vegeta in full earthling clothing. Super backtracks on all of this because of fan service like they did with Frieza, Future Trunk, Broly etc.

Yamcha and Krillin fans were probably the same way when DBZ started. "Can you believe they made Krillin this weak?"

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Re: "GT = Goku Time" is an exaggeration.

Post by PFM18 » Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:57 pm

Koitsukai wrote:Absolutely was Goku Time and that was a good thing
There's absolutely nothing good about having a show about fighting in which there is only one relevant fighter. Especially when the previous series had his son and his rival surpass him and keep up with him multiple times only for both of them to become inconspicuously irrelevant in an extremely incoherent way. Vegeta's identity is tied to being a proud warrior who always strives to become stronger and stronger, and yet in GT training has just become a hobby and he's just a bum that lives with his wife and is irrelevant in terms of strength.

Not to mention the fact that it automatically makes everything extremely predictable.

"Oh I wonder who is going to get the major win of this arc?"
"Oh it was Goku.
".....and now it's Goku again."
"Is it going to be Goku again? Yup.
"How's Goku gonna win this time?"

Everybody else essentially cheers him on as he ultimately is victorious with very little room for any other character to have even a remotely shining moment.
Vegeta explains later that he stopped chasing after Goku
He gave up. It is fine for his priorities to shift from surpassing Goku being his only focus in his entire life, to more productive things like family, but for him to just give up on surpassing Goku is not in his character. Vegeta is not a character who just gives up. But that is what he was made into being. Not to mention the fact that his art design is an embarrassment to the character in GT.
Only Uub remained relevant in that regard but he was unfairly left out
Yes, DBZ handed GT a new character on a silver platter that they could go a million different directions with and make him useful and relevant but they instead do nothing with him and just pander to Goku the entire time.
sintzu wrote:
Koitsukai wrote:Absolutely was Goku Time and that was a good thing. He already had left everybody in the dust, Vegeta explains later that he stopped chasing after Goku after that N°1 speech in Z.
It's a shame we never got another show that had Vegeta training and trying to keep up after his #1 speech instead of the lazy road GT took by just having him give up. I wonder how that would've turned out. :wink: :roll:

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Kurakaio wrote:Vegeta eventually gets SSJ4, but it's useless and he only serves to fuse into Gogeta, who couldn't get the job done anyway.
If that wasn't bad enough, the writers went a step further by saying Vegeta couldn't transform into it again because he wasn't "special" like Goku. How they were picked to write for DB (or any Shonen for that matter) is something I'll never understand.
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Robo4900 wrote:Eh, not really. Those who hate Super are quite vocal, but are usually drowned out by the massive hate for GT online, and the massive love for Super online.
What massive love for Super online? I don't see it anywhere

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Re: "GT = Goku Time" is an exaggeration.

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:06 pm

Timetraveller wrote:I saw this on twitter but someone realized that Toriyama symbolized Vegeta's humanization through his clothing (Source: https://twitter.com/SmugStick/status/10 ... 8571259904). Over the series, he is shown losing pieces of his saiyan armor until the show ends with Vegeta in full earthling clothing. Super backtracks on all of this because of fan service like they did with Frieza, Future Trunk, Broly etc.
Just a quick note:

Vegeta has been wearing the quesdo-Saiyan battle armour since the 2008 OVA. It was only in Resurrection F that Vegeta got a new outfit. But that was ditched after the Champa arc in Super.

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Re: "GT = Goku Time" is an exaggeration.

Post by Robo4900 » Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:21 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Robo4900 wrote:Eh, not really. Those who hate Super are quite vocal, but are usually drowned out by the massive hate for GT online, and the massive love for Super online.
What massive love for Super online? I don't see it anywhere
I mean, it's hard to go anywhere Dragon Ball-related online where people aren't talking about Super, and at least half of the talk is praise, so I have no idea how you could miss that.
Last edited by Robo4900 on Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "GT = Goku Time" is an exaggeration.

Post by PFM18 » Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:21 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Timetraveller wrote:I saw this on twitter but someone realized that Toriyama symbolized Vegeta's humanization through his clothing (Source: https://twitter.com/SmugStick/status/10 ... 8571259904). Over the series, he is shown losing pieces of his saiyan armor until the show ends with Vegeta in full earthling clothing. Super backtracks on all of this because of fan service like they did with Frieza, Future Trunk, Broly etc.
Just a quick note:

Vegeta has been wearing the quesdo-Saiyan battle armour since the 2008 OVA. It was only in Resurrection F that Vegeta got a new outfit. But that was ditched after the Champa arc in Super.
But the EoZ happens after Super so it still kinda make sense.
Robo4900 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Robo4900 wrote:Eh, not really. Those who hate Super are quite vocal, but are usually drowned out by the massive hate for GT online, and the massive love for Super online.
What massive love for Super online? I don't see it anywhere
I mean, it's hard to go anywhere Dragon Ball-related online where people aren't talking about Super, and at least half of the talk is praise, so I have no idea how you could miss that.
You said "massive love for Super Online" and I don't see that. Sure, there's some praise but I wouldn't really even call that showing love as much as people seem to just think it is decent, and the frequency of these types of assertions are uncommon compared to all of the hate comments towards it. GT gets a worse reception but IMO that's just a reflection of the difference in quality between the two series.

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Re: "GT = Goku Time" is an exaggeration.

Post by Dbzk1999 » Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:46 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Timetraveller wrote:I saw this on twitter but someone realized that Toriyama symbolized Vegeta's humanization through his clothing (Source: https://twitter.com/SmugStick/status/10 ... 8571259904). Over the series, he is shown losing pieces of his saiyan armor until the show ends with Vegeta in full earthling clothing. Super backtracks on all of this because of fan service like they did with Frieza, Future Trunk, Broly etc.
Just a quick note:

Vegeta has been wearing the quesdo-Saiyan battle armour since the 2008 OVA. It was only in Resurrection F that Vegeta got a new outfit. But that was ditched after the Champa arc in Super.
Exactly, hell, didn’t he only wear the outfit he had in the buu arc because his armor wasn’t allowed in the tournament?
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Re: "GT = Goku Time" is an exaggeration.

Post by sintzu » Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:53 pm

Timetraveller wrote:Honestly sounds like you as a Vegeta fan were just disappointed the show finally moved past him.

It's not bad writing to have a character slowly develop over the course of 200+ episodes to where his family becomes his number one priority over of his obsession with defeating Goku. It's character development, and good character development at that.

Super backtracks on all of this because of fan service like they did with Frieza, Future Trunk, Broly etc.
That's part of it as no one likes seeing their favorite character being sidelined. I do however have the same complain in regards to Piccolo and Gohan in Super as despite them not being my #1 like Vegeta is, that doesn't change the fact that they shouldn't have been written the way they were.

So essentially the same development he's having in Super right now but without taking away what makes him who he is ?

Super hasn't backtracked on anything. In Super Vegeta's family are his #1 priority but unlike GT, that priority didn't change who he was. Vegeta is first and foremost a warrior and to take that away like what GT did is to change who he is. Super has clearly shown that he can care about his family and still be the proud warrior he's always been but unlike before, that warrior pride didn't take priority over his family such as what we saw in BOG. What makes Vegeta's development in Super so great is that his family is now the source of his power. GT simply took the safe and lazy road by sidelining Vegeta.
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Re: "GT = Goku Time" is an exaggeration.

Post by Robo4900 » Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:49 pm

sintzu wrote:
Timetraveller wrote:Honestly sounds like you as a Vegeta fan were just disappointed the show finally moved past him.
It's not bad writing to have a character slowly develop over the course of 200+ episodes to where his family becomes his number one priority over of his obsession with defeating Goku. It's character development, and good character development at that.
Super backtracks on all of this because of fan service like they did with Frieza, Future Trunk, Broly etc.
[...] In Super Vegeta's family are his #1 priority but unlike GT, that priority didn't change who he was. Vegeta is first and foremost a warrior and to take that away like what GT did is to change who he is. Super has clearly shown that he can care about his family and still be the proud warrior he's always been but unlike before, that warrior pride didn't take priority over his family such as what we saw in BOG. What makes Vegeta's development in Super so great is that his family is now the source of his power. GT simply took the safe and lazy road by sidelining Vegeta.
I don't know what show you were watching, but GT Vegeta is 100% consistent with who Vegeta was at the end of the Boo arc. Maybe you didn't see that whole internal monologue Vegeta gave, y'know that whole key moment that concluded his 200-plus-episodes-long character arc, where he finally learned to put aside his pride, and be content with the fact that Goku is stronger, and that it's more important to save the world than to get his win and feed his ego. Vegeta in GT has chilled out, and is finally the family man he was struggling against being throughout the Cell and Boo arcs. It's not that he doesn't train anymore, that he doesn't fight anymore, it's that he's not a self-destructive deadbeat dad like he was in the Cell arc, and like he immediately defaulted to the moment he was given the choice in the Boo arc.

Vegeta doesn't go out into space with Goku and co. Any why would he? There's literally no reason for him to go. If it was known there was a big bad like Baby out there, he'd probably have joined them, but as far as anyone on earth knew, all that was going on in space was that the balls had been scattered, and they needed a handful of people to go out and grab them all. I can't imagine Vegeta having any interest in this at this stage in his life. And if he had gone out there, where could he go as a character? His arc is complete, and putting him on a new arc just seems lazy and silly; Vegeta took centre stage as the developing character after Piccolo's arc took a less active role for a while before its conclusion in the Cell arc, so why not focus on some other characters for GT?
Only place for Vegeta to really go is showing us that he's continued to keep up his evolved persona, which does happen in GT; he takes his daughter shopping as they trust Goku and co. to save the world, he gives Goku the thumbs-up after Baby's defeat, he helps in the evacuation of earth, he chills out and has a bit of a laugh about it when Goku and Vegeta end up not fighting in the Tenkaichi Budoukai, he and Bulma cook up a plan to help in the Evil Dragons arc, which comes into force at the end, with one final show of how far Vegeta has come and how much he's committed to his growth, when he proposes a fusion with Goku.
And, of course, in Vegeta's spotlight episode in GT, he pretty much lays out for the audience his entire character arc, and how it's lead to where he is now. He even specifically says that it's just the crazy pursuit of being the strongest there is that he's given up on, he's never going to stop training, and trying to become the absolute best that he can be, I believe he literally says something to the effect of "I will keep pushing my limits to see just how strong I can get."

In Super, Vegeta is the same arrogant prick he was before Babidi possessed him; the "You are no. 1, Kakarrot!" speech has been rendered totally meaningless, as has every other step of his development since Goku and co. went into Babidi's ship. It's like GT Vegeta took everything in the Boo arc to heart, and his monologue on the Kaioshin planet was a genuine moment of growth for him, while Super Vegeta is still stubbornly wanting to stick to being a proud warrior who could surpass Goku. Or, to put it a little more bluntly, it's like GT Vegeta had the monologue we all know, while Super Vegeta had an internal tantrum we didn't see.
PFM18 wrote:
Robo4900 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:What massive love for Super online? I don't see it anywhere
I mean, it's hard to go anywhere Dragon Ball-related online where people aren't talking about Super, and at least half of the talk is praise, so I have no idea how you could miss that.
You said "massive love for Super Online" and I don't see that. Sure, there's some praise but I wouldn't really even call that showing love as much as people seem to just think it is decent, and the frequency of these types of assertions are uncommon compared to all of the hate comments towards it. GT gets a worse reception but IMO that's just a reflection of the difference in quality between the two series.
So, you're saying two different people who interact with the Dragon Ball fandom very differently have different experiences with the Dragon Ball fandom? Shocking. ;)

But seriously, go to any comments section, explore the Kanzenshuu threads, you'll see praise for Super everywhere. Hell, just pop over to the Wikipedia article's reception section, and you'll hear about all the praise thrown at it by critics, or check out its IMDB page where it has an 8.1/10 rating, or its Rotten Tomatoes page where the percentage of users who rated the show 3.5/5 or higher is 81%, or its TV.com page, where its average user rating is 8.6/10, or Google it, and you'll see the Google likes percentage is 96%, or look at the show's Crunchyroll page, where the show has an average rating of 4.5/5, further broken down into 36 ratings of 1, 24 ratings of 2, 26 ratings of 3, 47 ratings of 4, and 293 ratings of 5. Sales of the DVDs, BDs, and manga also speak volumes(No pun intended).

GT's hatred is not something you'll see very much of outside the western fandom. In fact, outside of the USA, Australia, and Germany, it's almost nonexistent. The UK and Canada have begun to adopt it over the past 10-ish years, but again, this is entirely contained within western fandom...
Latin American fans? They like GT. French fans? Generally, you'll find they like GT. Japanese fans? Pretty positive on GT. It's not like you'll find GT to be considered some incredible masterpiece outside of the western fanbase, but the hatred it has is pretty exclusive to us. Why exactly that is probably involves a lot of things.

The reasons why I think the western fandom is hard on GT boils down to three basic factors:

First off, western fans are generally more used to Funimation's more "Hardcore" punched-up version of the show, with even those who watched fansubs generally having a similar kind of experience, with fansubs inserting a lot of swears and such into their subs to give it a faux maturity, so a lighthearted, sentimental show that dials the Boo arc's tapping into the franchise's more comedic, absurd side up to eleven was likely never going to go down well. The Boo arc itself isn't particularly well-appreciated in the western fandom either, and you'll probably find the more comedic, absurd, mystical nature that the Boo arc re-incorporated that had been largely de-emphasised after the Piccolo arc is something the western fans are often somewhat averse to.
I would say it speaks volumes about what the western Dragon Ball fandom generally wants and expects from the franchise that OG Dragon Ball is pretty universally ignored outside of the more hardcore fandom, the YouTube clips of key moments are always the Funimation Z dub, usually with the replacement score, Super is often shortened to "DBZ Super" in online discourse, and everything from discussion, to what's focused on by clips online, to what's in all the marketing is always the fighting, the screaming, etc.
Whatever kind of fan of Dragon Ball you are, if you're in the western fandom, you'll be surrounded by the legacy of the Funi Z dub, because that is what entrenched itself into the USA and Australian popular culture, and that's what's on home video everywhere else.

Second off, Dragon Ball Z had concluded, and left us with a perceived end to one long chapter of the run, with GT opening up a new chapter for us to take in, and basically GT spent the first 8 episodes experimenting and in a lot of ways floundering to find its niche, and when it found its niche, the show was pretty good; not an incredible second coming of Toriyama's masterpiece, but a pretty good follow-up/conclusion to a decade-long-running franchise. A lot of fans preferred to just check out at Z. In fact, a lot of Japan had already stopped watching over the course of the Boo arc, likely finding Z to have just run its course, and to have had its day. Viewership spiked in the last few weeks of Z's run as a lot of fans in Japan tuned back in to see the finalé, but the regular viewing figures were at an all-time low, and stayed at about the same level across GT. In other words -- a lot of fans had already had their fill, or just weren't interested in what GT was offering anyway.

Third, and most obviously, Funimation's presentation of GT was about the worst it could have been; the first 16 episodes, which set up the style and tone of the show, give you a grounding in the characters, establish the somewhat back to basics approach of doing a smaller, more focused main cast of 4 instead of the ever-growing ensemble that had been forming since the Red Ribbon and 22nd Tenkaichi arcs... All of this was skipped to throw you straight into the action. And of the material that was covered, they replaced the somewhat melancholy yet uplifting, sophisticated Japanese score for a generic hiphop/metal score complete with a rap intro to replace the original. And, of course, the dialogue and delivery was directed in a rather intense direction in Funimation's dub, and combined with the poor scripting, everything about the spirit of the original was thrown out in favour of an awkward, faux-edgy attempt to follow what Funimation were doing in Z(Would have linked a clip of the narrator too, but I'm not sure I want to subject you to that... :wink:).
Oldschool British and Canadian fans tend to be softer on GT in my experience, and I think this is a large part of why. Though the above reasons, naturally, do still factor in, and the fact most fans over the past 10 years will have watched it on DVD with the Funi dub instead of on TV with the Blue Water dub has meant British and Canadian opinions online have soured somewhat.

And last but not least, its reputation. Everyone is so incredibly negative about GT online, obviously that influences the opinions of newcomers. I'm not qualified to go into this with any real depth, but this might get you started.
I think it is worth noting that many people I've encountered have admitted they've only seen the first few episodes, and yet openly bash the series. You'll probably find a good few such people in this thread. If not, you can look at past threads, and you'll see it. So, even those who haven't actually seen the show will go along with the public opinion. Add to that the problem of social influence, and... Well... Here we are.

For the record, I'm not saying you're wrong for disliking GT, but as I will always maintain -- it's worth revisiting the show in Japanese someday with an open mind, and be sure you do so with an open mind, I don't want to get someone to slog through something they don't want to watch just to make a point against me in an argument! Some day, if you're willing to go into it with an open mind, and just try to accept it for what it is, whatever that means, it's worth revisiting, and putting aside all preconceptions about it.
Last edited by Robo4900 on Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "GT = Goku Time" is an exaggeration.

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:01 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Koitsukai wrote:Absolutely was Goku Time and that was a good thing
There's absolutely nothing good about having a show about fighting in which there is only one relevant fighter. Especially when the previous series had his son and his rival surpass him and keep up with him multiple times only for both of them to become inconspicuously irrelevant in an extremely incoherent way. Vegeta's identity is tied to being a proud warrior who always strives to become stronger and stronger, and yet in GT training has just become a hobby and he's just a bum that lives with his wife and is irrelevant in terms of strength.
I wholehearedtly agree, but I meant that if they made it out to be that everyone else was just decoration and pretty much as lame as they could be(EoZ only made the hybrids move on from fighting, they could've kept Vegeta and Uub) then I prefer to have OP Goku dealing with enemies that are way out of everyone else's league. Having SS Goten harming Ozaru Baby or Clark Kent Gohan going mano a mano with Super 17 would've been just sad and unbelievable.
Sure, I would've preferred GT to have more involvement from the rest of the cast(we have like 25 episodes of just Goku, Pan and Trunks), that's why we don't even get more GT characters in videogames, what fight could we be missing? Goten vs those blond earthlings? Goten vs Gohan? Gohan vs Piccoro? Trunks vs band-aid Baby? all in all, with the direction they gave GT, I think it was the lesser evil to have Goku take pretty much all of the glory.

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Re: "GT = Goku Time" is an exaggeration.

Post by ABED » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:21 pm

There is one good that comes from it - FOCUS. Even if Goku is the only relevant fighter (whatever that means), he has antagonists. DB isn't an ensemble story. Yes, Gohan has surpassed Goku, but it's not a high point for the story.

I think there are ways to keep Vegeta consistent with his development at the end of Z while also keeping his competitive side, but DB is Goku's story. The one time I would consider it a two hander was at the very beginning.
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Re: "GT = Goku Time" is an exaggeration.

Post by TheMikado » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:32 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Koitsukai wrote:Absolutely was Goku Time and that was a good thing
There's absolutely nothing good about having a show about fighting in which there is only one relevant fighter. Especially when the previous series had his son and his rival surpass him and keep up with him multiple times only for both of them to become inconspicuously irrelevant in an extremely incoherent way. Vegeta's identity is tied to being a proud warrior who always strives to become stronger and stronger, and yet in GT training has just become a hobby and he's just a bum that lives with his wife and is irrelevant in terms of strength.
I wholehearedtly agree, but I meant that if they made it out to be that everyone else was just decoration and pretty much as lame as they could be(EoZ only made the hybrids move on from fighting, they could've kept Vegeta and Uub) then I prefer to have OP Goku dealing with enemies that are way out of everyone else's league. Having SS Goten harming Ozaru Baby or Clark Kent Gohan going mano a mano with Super 17 would've been just sad and unbelievable.
Sure, I would've preferred GT to have more involvement from the rest of the cast(we have like 25 episodes of just Goku, Pan and Trunks), that's why we don't even get more GT characters in videogames, what fight could we be missing? Goten vs those blond earthlings? Goten vs Gohan? Gohan vs Piccoro? Trunks vs band-aid Baby? all in all, with the direction they gave GT, I think it was the lesser evil to have Goku take pretty much all of the glory.
I couldn’t disagree more. I always preface this, but Vegeta is my favorite character. And GT is written by individuals who intimately understand Vegeta’s character and his lore. Vegeta is a fighter but he’s also an elitist and an individual lone wolf type. He’s doing it his way or not at all. His realization at the end of the Buu saga is carried over into GT correctly. You really need to rewatch the GT episode “Heart of the Prince”. Vegeta relives his experiences with Goku and comes to this crazy meta realization. He states:

It my only purpose/destiny to be the only one strong enough to comprehend your (Goku’s) strength?

It’s a crazy meta realization in universe that his only purpose in the series is to be strong enough to make Goku look good. It’s a frighteningly accurate self characterization that ironically is his entire purpose throughout Super some 20 years after GT was made. Personally I feel that it’s impossible to not have watched Z and then come to the conclusion that Vegeta should do anything but focus on his family and train for his own satisfaction. He never loses his desire to be better than Goku but his not chasing after him like it’s the only thing in the world important to him. He’s moved past that and evolved.

Anyway I highly highly highly recommend watching that GT episode Heart of the Prince. It gives some much need perspective and depth to Vegetas character.

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Re: "GT = Goku Time" is an exaggeration.

Post by sintzu » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:36 pm

ABED wrote: Even if Goku is the only relevant fighter (whatever that means)...

DB isn't an ensemble story. DB is Goku's story.
It means he's the only fighter who does anything meaningful.

Goku's story involves the people around him as well, he's not a character in a bubble. I don't know how you can watch DB and say it's only Goku's story when countless characters developed and fought alongside him from the beginning till the end of the original manga. No one's saying the focus should be taken away from Goku as DB at its core is Goku's story but a major part of that story is the characters around him so by taking that away they took away a part of what made Goku's story so good.
Robo4900 wrote:Maybe you didn't see that whole internal monologue Vegeta gave, y'know that whole moment where he finally learned to put aside his pride, and be content with the fact that Goku is stronger.
TheMikado wrote:GT is written by individuals who intimately understand Vegeta’s character and his lore.
Vegeta is a warrior. Whatever good you may think they did is overshadowed by them taking away his fighting side. Vegeta can be a family man, he can put earth before himself and he can do many other things but at his core he is a warrior who lives to fight and get as strong as he can. Super's characterization of him has its issues but one thing it nailed perfectly was showing him using his family and earth as motivation to get stronger, he didn't just give up and watch Goku surpass him. His efforts may not have been enough to close the gap between him and Goku but they still put him far above where he was in the Buu arc and resulted in him being the 3rd strongest fighter among the 80 fighters who participated in the tournament of power. If GT had a tournament of power Goku would be the only fighter representing U7. :lol:
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Re: "GT = Goku Time" is an exaggeration.

Post by ricky84 » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:57 pm

Robo4900 wrote: In Super, Vegeta is the same arrogant prick he was before Babidi possessed him; the "You are no. 1, Kakarrot!" speech has been rendered totally meaningless, as has every other step of his development since Goku and co. went into Babidi's ship. It's like GT Vegeta took everything in the Boo arc to heart, and his monologue on the Kaioshin planet was a genuine moment of growth for him, while Super Vegeta is still stubbornly wanting to stick to being a proud warrior who could surpass Goku. Or, to put it a little more bluntly, it's like GT Vegeta had the monologue we all know, while Super Vegeta had an internal tantrum we didn't see.
Aren't you forgetting some things? :http://www.kanzenshuu.com/features/fan- ... ll-ending/. https://twitter.com/MJxTV/status/1002445514724474881

Him still wanting to be better than Goku Post-Buu was in the original manga.

Your argument is also completely negated once you remember GT Vegeta wanted to become SSJ4 just to catch up to Goku (his words not mine): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hdbkkR5KM4

You also forgot that in Super, Vegeta was willing to sit out of the Tournament of Power just to take care of his daughter.
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Re: "GT = Goku Time" is an exaggeration.

Post by TheMikado » Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:06 pm

sintzu wrote:
ABED wrote: Even if Goku is the only relevant fighter (whatever that means)...

DB isn't an ensemble story. DB is Goku's story.
It means he's the only fighter who does anything meaningful.

Goku's story involves the people around him as well, he's not a character in a bubble. I don't know how you can watch DB and say it's only Goku's story when countless characters developed and fought alongside him from the beginning till the end of the original manga. No one's saying the focus should be taken away from Goku as DB at its core is Goku's story but a major part of that story is the characters around him so by taking that away they took away a part of what made Goku's story so good.
Robo4900 wrote:Maybe you didn't see that whole internal monologue Vegeta gave, y'know that whole moment where he finally learned to put aside his pride, and be content with the fact that Goku is stronger.
TheMikado wrote:GT is written by individuals who intimately understand Vegeta’s character and his lore.
Vegeta is a warrior. Whatever good you may think they did is overshadowed by them taking away his fighting side. Vegeta can be a family man, he can put earth before himself and he can do many other things but at his core he is a warrior who lives to fight and get as strong as he can. Super's characterization of him has its issues but one thing it nailed perfectly was showing him using his family and earth as motivation to get stronger, he didn't just give up and watch Goku surpass him. His efforts may not have been enough to close the gap between him and Goku but they still put him far above where he was in the Buu arc and resulted in him being the 3rd strongest fighter among the 80 fighters who participated in the tournament of power. If GT had a tournament of power Goku would be the only fighter representing U7. :lol:
Vegeta never gives up in GT though. He’s one of the first on the battle fields when the Earth is threatened and not sitting around waiting for Goku. We see he still trains and works out and he hasn’t given up at all. We even see him fairing better against Super 17 than Majuub who would be at least SSJ3 level of not more. It’s very apparent Vegeta didn’t just become a couch potato and sees his role as a defender of Earth, his words. He just had matured that he doesn’t need to tag along after Goku or be constantly associated with him. He’s his own character and says so.

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Re: "GT = Goku Time" is an exaggeration.

Post by ricky84 » Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:08 pm

TheMikado wrote:
Koitsukai wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
There's absolutely nothing good about having a show about fighting in which there is only one relevant fighter. Especially when the previous series had his son and his rival surpass him and keep up with him multiple times only for both of them to become inconspicuously irrelevant in an extremely incoherent way. Vegeta's identity is tied to being a proud warrior who always strives to become stronger and stronger, and yet in GT training has just become a hobby and he's just a bum that lives with his wife and is irrelevant in terms of strength.
I wholehearedtly agree, but I meant that if they made it out to be that everyone else was just decoration and pretty much as lame as they could be(EoZ only made the hybrids move on from fighting, they could've kept Vegeta and Uub) then I prefer to have OP Goku dealing with enemies that are way out of everyone else's league. Having SS Goten harming Ozaru Baby or Clark Kent Gohan going mano a mano with Super 17 would've been just sad and unbelievable.
Sure, I would've preferred GT to have more involvement from the rest of the cast(we have like 25 episodes of just Goku, Pan and Trunks), that's why we don't even get more GT characters in videogames, what fight could we be missing? Goten vs those blond earthlings? Goten vs Gohan? Gohan vs Piccoro? Trunks vs band-aid Baby? all in all, with the direction they gave GT, I think it was the lesser evil to have Goku take pretty much all of the glory.
I couldn’t disagree more. I always preface this, but Vegeta is my favorite character. And GT is written by individuals who intimately understand Vegeta’s character and his lore. Vegeta is a fighter but he’s also an elitist and an individual lone wolf type. He’s doing it his way or not at all. His realization at the end of the Buu saga is carried over into GT correctly. You really need to rewatch the GT episode “Heart of the Prince”. Vegeta relives his experiences with Goku and comes to this crazy meta realization. He states:

It my only purpose/destiny to be the only one strong enough to comprehend your (Goku’s) strength?

It’s a crazy meta realization in universe that his only purpose in the series is to be strong enough to make Goku look good. It’s a frighteningly accurate self characterization that ironically is his entire purpose throughout Super some 20 years after GT was made. Personally I feel that it’s impossible to not have watched Z and then come to the conclusion that Vegeta should do anything but focus on his family and train for his own satisfaction. He never loses his desire to be better than Goku but his not chasing after him like it’s the only thing in the world important to him. He’s moved past that and evolved.

Anyway I highly highly highly recommend watching that GT episode Heart of the Prince. It gives some much need perspective and depth to Vegetas character.
How does Vegeta in the Goku Black and ToP arcs make Goku look better, especially in the former? Goku gets destroyed by Black 3 times, then Vegeta beats Black. Goku and Vegeta spend most the ToP fighting separate battles, and Vegeta managed to do better against Jiren than Goku did in his first try.

Come to think of it, Goku actually lost more major fights in Super than Vegeta has, so I don't see how your claim works.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Re: "GT = Goku Time" is an exaggeration.

Post by TheMikado » Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:09 pm

ricky84 wrote:
Robo4900 wrote: In Super, Vegeta is the same arrogant prick he was before Babidi possessed him; the "You are no. 1, Kakarrot!" speech has been rendered totally meaningless, as has every other step of his development since Goku and co. went into Babidi's ship. It's like GT Vegeta took everything in the Boo arc to heart, and his monologue on the Kaioshin planet was a genuine moment of growth for him, while Super Vegeta is still stubbornly wanting to stick to being a proud warrior who could surpass Goku. Or, to put it a little more bluntly, it's like GT Vegeta had the monologue we all know, while Super Vegeta had an internal tantrum we didn't see.
Aren't you forgetting some things? :http://www.kanzenshuu.com/features/fan- ... ll-ending/. https://twitter.com/MJxTV/status/1002445514724474881

Him still wanting to be better than Goku Post-Buu was in the original manga.

Your argument is also completely negated once you remember GT Vegeta wanted to become SSJ4 just to catch up to Goku (his words not mine): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hdbkkR5KM4

You also forgot that in Super, Vegeta was willing to sit out of the Tournament of Power just to take care of his daughter.
I don’t see how he can’t desire to be stronger than Goku and still be realistic about his position. That’s the point, GT Vegeta acknowledges he’s a great fighter but not the best, Goku is. He finds out he has the opportunity to close the gap and he jumps at it. It’s a realistic scenario like a 2nd place athlete willing to take steroids to close the gap against the number one athlete.

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Re: "GT = Goku Time" is an exaggeration.

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:13 pm

I would certainly agree that Vegeta's characterisation in GT being a natural transition from the Majin Boo arc. But I don't agree that Vegeta in Super is anything like he was prior to the "You are Number One" speech. Vegeta may be arrogant and prideful sometimes in Super, but it's nowhere near as unhealthy or destructive (for himself and those around him) as it was in the past. Vegeta is far more friendly and generally sociable in Super.

I've talked about this in great length before:
It boggles my mind that people think that Vegeta's character in Super is anything like his characterisation in the Android/Cell arc. Android/Cell arc Vegeta was a bitter, angry, angsty bastard who bitched and moaned about nearly everything was willing to let people die to satisfy his ego. Vegeta's incarnation in Super is so far away from that.

In second episode of Super, he actually pulled through with his promise to go to take Kid Trunks on a day out, even though he clearly wasn't enjoying it, he still persevered for as long as he could to make Trunks and Bulma happy. Throughout the Future Trunks arc he was constantly supportive of Future Trunks and even mentioned that he wasn't fighting for himself but for Future Trunks world. And then he flat out refused to train with Goku in order to be with his wife at all times while she was heavily pregnant really speaks volumes for how much the character has progressed. He even wanted a more Saiyan-esque name form Bra and showed Trunks how to properly change her diaper. Vegeta during the Android/Cell arc would have never said or done any of this. Hell, even Majin Boo arc Vegeta wouldn't have said or done any of this since even during that time its established he's still quite distant with his family and socially reclusive given he admits he's never shown any physical affection towards his son.

People also take Vegeta's "Goku is Number 1" speech far to literally. There isn't enough context in the original story to suggest that after he admitted that Goku was "number 1", he just resided to that fact and stopped training because he's fine with status quo of being forever second banana to Goku. Vegeta knows that Goku for the moment is his superior but that doesn't equate to Vegeta residing to never wanting to improve himself. That is further emphasised with the Kanzenban ending of the final chapter in the manga where Vegeta states that he still wants to defeat Goku, and by that virtue, he wants to become as strong, if not, stronger than Goku. That desire of wanting to improve himself is still there. We don't actually know what Vegeta was doing from the end of Majin Boo arc to the final chapter in the manga. He may have still be training with the secret desire of wanting to keep with Goku.

The fact he's not perturbed at all by the wacky and goofy situations he may get himself into, like the escapades of the Copy Vegeta arc, the Baseball episode and the Arale episode, and the fact he's more than willing to humble himself, as shown with Beerus, just shows how much his character has grown. Yes, Vegeta still a guy that can still occasionally get angry and/or frustrated in some scenarios, like when Goku pulled off the SSJB/Kaioken combination technique, but quickly understands and accepts the fact that there some things that Goku can do that he can't, and doesn't angst and mentally stew over the whole deal and doesn't fly off the handle like he would have done many years ago. Hell, Vegeta attained a branched off transformation based on Super Saiyan Blue that was rooted to him accepting that he couldn't attain Ultra Instinct, and instead of desperately following in Goku's footsteps, he'd achieve his own unique of strength and out of desperation to save a race in another universe.

Vegeta is more than willing to express his love and care for his family from time to time and how much his friendship with Goku means to him. Vegeta talking about how he'll defeat Goku and be the last one standing in the Tournament Of Power are statements that don't really hold a lot of weight to them considering you know it's just typical competitive banter from the context of a rivalry that's far more friendly and civil. Anybody who's family with any kind competitive sport, especially football and boxing, know that rivalries like that exist and comments like the one Vegeta made are extremely common. The progress into being friendly rivals who use each other to measure their personal growth is progress indeed. Vegeta doesn't need to be completely indifferent to Goku's ability and his progression of strength. It's just no longer the sole factor in determining his self-worth.

People may not be so keen on Vegeta being domesticated, but I enjoy seeing dad and supporting husband and actually being more outward with how much he wants to care for his family instead of being a tsundere twit about it like he was in the Majin Boo arc or the spiteful, whiny, evil prick who had a huge chip on his shoulder and was willing to let people die to satisfy his ego like he was in the Android/Cell arc.

So... yeah. I can't understand how anyone can think that Vegeta's characterisation in Super resemble that of the how he was characterised prior to his "You are Number One" speech. He's shown in Super to be not the same guy who always seemed to have a stick the size of Texas always stuck up his ass. Vegeta's characterisation is natural evolution of the character given he's learnt that life is too short to be pissed, grumpy or condescending over everything or anything and just settled down.

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Re: "GT = Goku Time" is an exaggeration.

Post by ricky84 » Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:14 pm

Timetraveller wrote:
sintzu wrote:
Koitsukai wrote:Absolutely was Goku Time and that was a good thing. He already had left everybody in the dust, Vegeta explains later that he stopped chasing after Goku after that N°1 speech in Z.
It's a shame we never got another show that had Vegeta training and trying to keep up after his #1 speech instead of the lazy road GT took by just having him give up. I wonder how that would've turned out. :wink: :roll:

Image
Kurakaio wrote:Vegeta eventually gets SSJ4, but it's useless and he only serves to fuse into Gogeta, who couldn't get the job done anyway.
If that wasn't bad enough, the writers went a step further by saying Vegeta couldn't transform into it again because he wasn't "special" like Goku. How they were picked to write for DB (or any Shonen for that matter) is something I'll never understand.
Honestly sounds like you as a Vegeta fan were just disappointed the show finally moved past him. It's not bad writing to have a character slowly develop over the course of 200+ episodes to where his family becomes his number one priority over of his obsession with defeating Goku. It's character development, and good character development at that. I saw this on twitter but someone realized that Toriyama symbolized Vegeta's humanization through his clothing (Source: https://twitter.com/SmugStick/status/10 ... 8571259904). Over the series, he is shown losing pieces of his saiyan armor until the show ends with Vegeta in full earthling clothing. Super backtracks on all of this because of fan service like they did with Frieza, Future Trunk, Broly etc.

Yamcha and Krillin fans were probably the same way when DBZ started. "Can you believe they made Krillin this weak?"
You are over-reading things. The actually reason why Vegeta stops wearing saiyan armor in the Buu saga (and the end of Z) is because the tournament doesn't allow armor (he is shown wearing saiyan armor in the 2008 OVA, which is post-Buu). Besides, that interpretation doesn't match up with the 2004 ending of the original manga.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Re: "GT = Goku Time" is an exaggeration.

Post by ricky84 » Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:19 pm

TheMikado wrote:
ricky84 wrote:
Robo4900 wrote: In Super, Vegeta is the same arrogant prick he was before Babidi possessed him; the "You are no. 1, Kakarrot!" speech has been rendered totally meaningless, as has every other step of his development since Goku and co. went into Babidi's ship. It's like GT Vegeta took everything in the Boo arc to heart, and his monologue on the Kaioshin planet was a genuine moment of growth for him, while Super Vegeta is still stubbornly wanting to stick to being a proud warrior who could surpass Goku. Or, to put it a little more bluntly, it's like GT Vegeta had the monologue we all know, while Super Vegeta had an internal tantrum we didn't see.
Aren't you forgetting some things? :http://www.kanzenshuu.com/features/fan- ... ll-ending/. https://twitter.com/MJxTV/status/1002445514724474881

Him still wanting to be better than Goku Post-Buu was in the original manga.

Your argument is also completely negated once you remember GT Vegeta wanted to become SSJ4 just to catch up to Goku (his words not mine): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hdbkkR5KM4

You also forgot that in Super, Vegeta was willing to sit out of the Tournament of Power just to take care of his daughter.
I don’t see how he can’t desire to be stronger than Goku and still be realistic about his position. That’s the point, GT Vegeta acknowledges he’s a great fighter but not the best, Goku is. He finds out he has the opportunity to close the gap and he jumps at it. It’s a realistic scenario like a 2nd place athlete willing to take steroids to close the gap against the number one athlete.
If he was realistic about the situation, he wouldn't desire to surpass Goku at all. He wouldn't even want to close the gap with him and just focus on himself. At least in Super he actually manages to surpass Goku with training and effort in 3 separate occasions in justify this desire, unlike in GT were he never gets close and has to cheat his way into SSJ4 like how he cheated in the Buu saga with the Majin boost.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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