The Buu Arc as a Self Parody?

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Majin Buu
Regular
Posts: 538
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 2:23 pm

The Buu Arc as a Self Parody?

Post by Majin Buu » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:31 pm

I was looking back through my old posts and in threads about the Buu arc I noticed some people mentioning that it was a self-parody, that Toriyama was lampooning how overblown the series had become in the Z era and actively subverting the series’ conventions at that point. While we can never know what Toriyama had in mind when he was crafting the Buu arc (even if you could ask him directly he probably wouldn’t remember), I’d like to explore that idea since I don’t see it mentioned a whole lot. Looking through the Buu arc, there is evidence that supports this idea:

1. Toriyama started out as a gag manga author and has always remained one at heart. As such, conceiving a whole story arc as a stealth parody/subversion of his own series is something he would be capable of doing.

2. The return to the more humorous tone of early Dragon Ball. What better way to lay the groundwork for a parody arc than to reintroduce a long-neglected element of your series that would be most conductive to that?

3. Mr.Satan and Gotenks making up ridiculously over the top names for ineffective attacks in an obvious nod to the characters’ tendency to shout attack names as they’re performing them.

4. Gohan getting an enormous power up just by sitting still for a long time as opposed to the usual method of a grueling training session.

5. Characters becoming so ridiculously powerful that they can perform over the top feats like opening holes between dimensions just by screaming.

6. The main villain is built up as a powerful doomsday monster, but when he finally appears he is revealed to be a fat, pink, childlike being that kills people by turning them into sweets and eating them. If you were going to create a parody of a Dragon Ball villain, creating a character that is so unlike what you would expect of a typical Dragon Ball villain would be the way to do it.

7. The villain is so overpowered that his is nigh-unkillable. Dragon Ball villains have always been difficult to kill, but Buu takes this to a ridiculous extreme. He’s beaten to a pulp, impaled, bisected, decapitated, blown to bits, and even reduced to vapor and he comes back from all of it no worse for the wear.

8. The amount of death and destruction Buu causes is also taken to a ridiculous extreme. At one point almost the entire cast along with the entire population of Earth is dead and the planet itself destroyed.

9. Buu having an insane amount of transformations and alternate forms. Transformations are nothing new for the villains in this series. Each major antagonist from Piccolo Daimao to Cell had some kind of transformation, escalating with Freeza and Cell in the Z era having 4 and 3 forms respectively. With Buu though, this is taken to a ridiculous extreme with 8 forms in total (9 if you include his reincarnation Uub).

10. Mr.Satan, the joke character, ends up saving the world simply by telling Fat Buu that killing people is wrong. Having the joke character actually succeed in saving the world (even if only for a moment) is just the kind of subversive gag Toriyama would come up with.

11. The first half of Gotenks’ fight with Buu plays like an outright farce rather than a serious battle to the death with the fate of the world at stake (though they both start fighting seriously after leaving the Room of Spirit and Time). Keep in mind that at this point Gotenks is the planet’s last hope as far as any of the cast on Earth is considered.

12. Gohan, the hero of the previous arc, is built up as the one that will defeat Buu but fails. Gotenks, who for a while is built up as the Earth’s last hope against Buu, fails as well. Even Goku, the main character, fails in outright defeating Buu in battle. In fact, the only characters that outright defeat any version of Buu in battle are other versions of Buu (Evil Buu and Kid Buu respectively fight and defeat Fat Buu).

13. Super Saiyan 3 has a very exaggerated appearance and ends up being near useless in the end. If you were going to lampoon the Super Saiyan transformation, that’s exactly how you would do it: Make the hair ridiculously long, give it a flashy transformation sequence, but have it not be very effective in taking down the villain. And because the new Super Saiyan form isn’t the trump card it was in the previous two arcs, the villain has to be defeated through a collaborative effort rather than one character overpowering them with little to no help.

14. There is always a point in Dragon Ball arcs where the villain gets curbstopped by the powered up hero. We see that in the Buu arc too, but the most bizarre instance of it happens when Buu is curbstomped by a fighting piece of candy.

Granted, some of these are the reasons some fans don’t like the Buu arc so it didn’t work for everyone, but these indicate that Toriyama may have been doing more with the Buu arc than simply phoning it in like the popular opinion says.

So what does everyone think about this? Agree? Disagree? Have any additional points to add?

Lucky_Deity
Newbie
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:56 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Re: The Buu Arc as a Self Parody?

Post by Lucky_Deity » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:41 pm

And this is why the Buu arc is my favourite arc in DBZ, maybe my favourite arc in the entire series overall.

User avatar
JohnnyCashKami
Temporarily Banned
Posts: 1597
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:16 pm

Re: The Buu Arc as a Self Parody?

Post by JohnnyCashKami » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:45 pm

I had a blast watching the Majin Boo arc, it took me back to the innocent times of Dragon Ball where it was just about good old fun, characters being goofy and Son saving the day. Apparently, not many were too pleased with it.

How I'd love to watch the Majin Boo arc with in HD with the Level Blu-rays' treatment or something similar. Fingers crossed TOEI gets to it 'cause FUNimation doesn't really care about releasing the show in 4x3 AR as originally intended, and without filters that destroy detail, make it look like a water paint and whatnot.

User avatar
KBABZ
I Live Here
Posts: 4264
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: The tallest tower in West City

Re: The Buu Arc as a Self Parody?

Post by KBABZ » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:59 pm

Parody is appropriate, but I almost feel like saying "having fun with his own formula" is even moreso. The Buu arc is a lot like The Last Jedi actually; it very intentionally subverts a lot of expectations (high school arc aside because Toriyama hadn't changed the direction at that point). I think another aspect about the Buu arc that doesn't get called out enough is how the combination of gleeful fun romps with mass murder means that it can be quite unsettling at times. For example, Buu cheerfully blowing up an entire city, turning another's populace into candy, helping out a blind child by turning an old man into a carton of milk, vaporizing the population of the Earth in a single blast, turning Chi-Chi into an egg and stepping on her, and even the main cast by justifying letting Buu do all of that by saying they can wish them back with the Dragon Balls. It adds an interesting edge of the Buu arc that sets it apart from Cell and Frieza.

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: The Buu Arc as a Self Parody?

Post by sintzu » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:20 pm

Majin Buu wrote:So what does everyone think about this? Agree? Disagree? Have any additional points to add?
Let's take a look at each point you make.
1. Toriyama started out as a gag manga author and has always remained one at heart. As such, conceiving a whole story arc as a stealth parody/subversion of his own series is something he would be capable of doing.
This is true and he says it himself "my starting point for the Boo arc was, “This is the end, so I’m going to draw whatever I want!” I always liked dumb gags, so I made things comical, with the Great Saiyaman and Gotenks and whatnot".
2. The return to the more humorous tone of early Dragon Ball. What better way to lay the groundwork for a parody arc than to reintroduce a long-neglected element of your series that would be most conductive to that?
To be fair, even the Z portion of the story had gags like the Ginyu force and Mr. Satan trying to fight Cell.
3. Mr.Satan and Gotenks making up ridiculously over the top names for ineffective attacks in an obvious nod to the characters’ tendency to shout attack names as they’re performing them.
Already covered in point 1.
4. Gohan getting an enormous power up just by sitting still for a long time as opposed to the usual method of a grueling training session.
It was a funny way of powering up but I think it may have been done to change things up as opposed to being done just for laughs. There also wasn't time for hard training.
5. Characters becoming so ridiculously powerful that they can perform over the top feats like opening holes between dimensions just by screaming.
I think this was an anime only scene.
6.The main villain is built up as a powerful doomsday monster, but when he finally appears he is revealed to be a fat, pink, childlike being that kills people by turning them into sweets and eating them. If you were going to create a parody of a Dragon Ball villain, creating a character that is so unlike what you would expect of a typical Dragon Ball villain would be the way to do it.
This sounds about right.
7. The villain is so overpowered that his is nigh-unkillable. Dragon Ball villains have always been difficult to kill, but Buu takes this to a ridiculous extreme. He’s beaten to a pulp, impaled, bisected, decapitated, blown to bits, and even reduced to vapor and he comes back from all of it no worse for the wear.
I'd say Freeza was harder to kill as without his regeneration ability he would've died when Vegeta impaled him. Now let's look at Freeza, in his first form Vegeta had trouble keeping up with him. In his second form a newly fused Piccolo could barely hold his own against him, despite getting a huge power boost from the fusion. In his 3rd form he nearly killed Piccolo. In his final form he made Vegeta, the villain of the previous arc and at that point the 2nd strongest only to Goku cry like a bi*ch. Once a newly healed Goku (who was very much stronger than Vegeta) tried to fight him he ended up being toyed with. He tried using a full on Kamehameha with his Kaioken×20 yet he blocked it with ONE hand. When that didn't work Goku threw a spirit bomb in his face which really messed up the planet and he still didn't die (although it did hurt him). Goku then turns into the legendary Ssj and although he gets the upper hand, Freeza manages to jump back and even give Goku some trouble before he had stamina issues. After all that, he gets sliced in half, gets a kamehameha to the face and the planet blows up with him in the middle of it yet he still survives. It was only after Trunks sliced him into very small pieces that they finally got rid of him. Buu is strong but he has nothing on Freeza.
8. The amount of death and destruction Buu causes is also taken to a ridiculous extreme. At one point almost the entire cast along with the entire population of Earth is dead and the planet itself destroyed.
I think that was done for tension rather than a gag as earth had always been threatened but Buu actually pulled it off.
9. Buu having an insane amount of transformations and alternate forms.
The only forms I consider different are his Fat, Super and true form. I understand where you're coming from though.
10. Mr.Satan, the joke character, ends up saving the world simply by telling Fat Buu that killing people is wrong.
I think this was done to not only show Mr. Satan was a good guy but also to show there are other ways to resolve things beyond fighting. I actually really like this as everything could've been avoided if Goku simply tried talking to Buu.

11.The first half of Gotenks’ fight with Buu plays like an outright farce rather than a serious battle to the death with the fate of the world at stake.

Already covered in point 1.
12. Gohan, the hero of the previous arc, is built up as the one that will defeat Buu but fails. Gotenks, who for a while is built up as the Earth’s last hope against Buu, fails as well. Even Goku, the main character, fails in outright defeating Buu in battle.
This was happening in DB since day 1 so it's nothing new. Characters were always built up to be the heroes only to fail.
13. Super Saiyan 3 has a very exaggerated appearance and ends up being near useless in the end. Because the new Super Saiyan form isn’t the trump card it was in the previous two arcs, the villain has to be defeated through a collaborative effort rather than one character overpowering them with little to no help.
I think this was done to change things up as Ssj3 winning would be too predictable and repetitive. I think Ssj3 looked the way it did because like Toriyama said, he didn't think Goku could get any stronger and it was the end so he wanted to go all out with it.
14. There is always a point in Dragon Ball arcs where the villain gets curbstopped by the powered up hero.
Not Freeza, he held his own till the very end.
15. Toriyama may have been doing more with the Buu arc than simply phoning it in like the popular opinion says.
The Buu arc is just as good as the others. Among the things I like about it is the character development for Vegeta, showing that talking is a solution to problems, showing how bad humanity is when the old couple got shot, calling backs on past events like the 2 kids fighting resembling Goku and Krillin's fight, the way Buu was defeated and many more. If I had one complain about the Buu arc it's with the manga's fights but thankfully the anime made up for it. The Buu arc was a great way to end the original run and even if things stayed there nothing would've been taken away from it as it did a great job bringing things full circle and concluding DB on a very high note.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

User avatar
JohnnyCashKami
Temporarily Banned
Posts: 1597
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:16 pm

Re: The Buu Arc as a Self Parody?

Post by JohnnyCashKami » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:31 pm

sintzu wrote:The Buu arc was a great way to end the original run and even if things stayed there nothing would've been taken away from it as it did a great job bringing things full circle and concluding DB on a very high note.
The Majin Boo arc feels like it could have been a sequel to Dragon Ball Z than another saga, it even started out with the world being peaceful and then transitioned to your typical enemy.

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: The Buu Arc as a Self Parody?

Post by sintzu » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:48 pm

JohnnyCashKami wrote:
sintzu wrote:The Buu arc was a great way to end the original run and even if things stayed there nothing would've been taken away from it as it did a great job bringing things full circle and concluding DB on a very high note.
The Majin Boo arc feels like it could have been a sequel to Dragon Ball Z than another saga, it even started out with the world being peaceful and then transitioned to your typical enemy.
I think it could've as well (despite the manga all being under one name) but Z was too popular at that point and Toriyama said he decided on Buu being the final arc before it started so chances are they knew about it.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

User avatar
Majin Buu
Regular
Posts: 538
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 2:23 pm

Re: The Buu Arc as a Self Parody?

Post by Majin Buu » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:57 pm

sintzu wrote:
To be fair, even the Z portion of the story had gags like the Ginyu force and Mr. Satan trying to fight Cell.
True. Gags and humor never went away completely; but they were downplayed when the series stated taking itself more seriously.
It was a funny way of powering up but I think it may have been done to change things up as opposed to being done just for laughs. There also wasn't time for hard training.
Done for laughs as well as subversion is what I think that was. There being no time for hard training is just an in-story justification for it. Toriyama could have used a traditional hard training session and come up with an in-story justification for it as well.

I think this was an anime only scene.
Nope. Buu and Gotenks got out of the Room of Spirit and Time that way in the manga. The scene where Super Buu does that against Veggetto though is anime only.

I'd say Freeza was harder to kill as without his regeneration ability he would've died when Vegeta impaled him. Now let's look at Freeza, in his first form Vegeta had trouble keeping up with him. In his second form a newly fused Piccolo could barely hold his own against him, despite getting a huge power boost from the fusion. In his 3rd form he nearly killed Piccolo. In his final form he made Vegeta, the villain of the previous arc and at that point the 2nd strongest only to Goku cry like a bi*ch. Once a newly healed Goku (who was very much stronger than Vegeta) tried to fight him he ended up being toyed with. He tried using a full on Kamehameha with his Kaioken×20 yet he blocked it with ONE hand. When that didn't work Goku threw a spirit bomb in his face which really messed up the planet and he still didn't die (although it did hurt him). Goku then turns into the legendary Ssj and although he gets the upper hand, Freeza manages to jump back and even give Goku some trouble before he had stamina issues. After all that, he gets sliced in half, gets a kamehameha to the face and the planet blows up with him in the middle of it yet he still survives. It was only after Trunks sliced him into very small pieces that they finally got rid of him. Buu is strong but he has nothing on Freeza.

All this is tangential to my point and more a separate topic on its own. My point is that Buu survives things that would have killed any other Dragon Ball villain before him, Freeza included.

I think that was done for tension rather than a gag as earth had always been threatened but Buu actually pulled it off.
True, other villains had threatened it, but actually pulling the trigger on it feels like Toriyama escalating things to an extreme.

The only forms I consider different are his Fat, Super and true form. I understand where you're coming from though.
Agree to disagree.

I think this was done to not only show Mr. Satan was a good guy but also to show there are other ways to resolve things beyond fighting. I actually really like this as everything could've been avoided if Goku simply tried talking to Buu.
Yes. It does show that there are ways to resolve things beyond fighting. For a fighting series that is subversive, which is part of my point. It comes off as a gag to me because Satan is a comedic character and the idea that you can stop the main villain by doing something as simple as that in a fighting series is funny.

This was happening in DB since day 1 so it's nothing new. Characters were always built up to be the heroes only to fail.
The difference here is the failure is coming from characters that have been the heroes in previous arcs that you would expect succeed this time too (Goku and Gohan). Not so much Gotenks though so I'll give you that.

I think this was done to change things up as Ssj3 winning would be too predictable and repetitive. I think Ssj3 looked the way it did because like Toriyama said, he didn't think Goku could get any stronger and it was the end so he wanted to go all out with it.
Your point about it being too predictable and repetitive for it to be a deciding factor is true, that's why Toriyama not doing that and making it almost useless instead is subversive, which is part of my point. As for its appearance, I remember reading a webcomic a while back that mocked DBZ by giving the characters ridiculously long golden hair in a clear reference to Super Saiyan 3. In retrospect it feels pointless to do that because Super Saiyan 3 already looks like an exaggeration of the Super Saiyan transformation. That's what I'm getting at.

Not Freeza, he held his own till the very end.
Not really, Goku mentioned Freeza was losing strength after using his full power. True, Freeza wasn't curbstomped like Cell and Buu, but he was clearly outmatched at that point since he couldn't keep up anymore. Goku probably would have started curbstomping him had he not decided to stop the fight.

User avatar
Shaddy
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1148
Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:38 pm

Re: The Buu Arc as a Self Parody?

Post by Shaddy » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:07 pm

I think that while in retrospect you can certainly interpret it as self-parody, it's much more likely that it just kinda...turned out that way. We've known for years that Dragon Ball was constantly rewritten, altered and retconned, and I think the Buu saga, especially with Toriyama's new (lax) editor on staff, is just the epicenter of it all, since the arcs had been gradually becoming looser and looser with the way their events played out since maybe the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai. That's not to say it wasn't intentionally making fun of itself at many points, that's definitely true, but stuff like Gohan being ineffective, the Spirit Bomb actually working, and Buu taking so fucking long to beat that the story stops being fun are more likely the product of artificial extension and rewrites than the much more obvious stuff like Mister Satan's presence and Gotenks's wasting time.

The Last Jedi comparison is apt, though, since it's a story that manages to be fun, but unsatisfying, but interesting and in-line with the spirit of the original, but way too long, and that a lot of people hate, even though it's probably my favorite.
Mage of Blood yeets pizza wrote:Satanism is just Atheism wearing a funny hat
bjm knhhjnbguv cxkjmn bl,v wrote:Go yiff yourself

User avatar
Cipher
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5477
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:54 pm
Location: Nagano
Contact:

Re: The Buu Arc as a Self Parody?

Post by Cipher » Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:10 am

KBABZ wrote:Parody is appropriate, but I almost feel like saying "having fun with his own formula" is even moreso. The Buu arc is a lot like The Last Jedi actually; it very intentionally subverts a lot of expectations (high school arc aside because Toriyama hadn't changed the direction at that point). I think another aspect about the Buu arc that doesn't get called out enough is how the combination of gleeful fun romps with mass murder means that it can be quite unsettling at times. For example, Buu cheerfully blowing up an entire city, turning another's populace into candy, helping out a blind child by turning an old man into a carton of milk, vaporizing the population of the Earth in a single blast, turning Chi-Chi into an egg and stepping on her, and even the main cast by justifying letting Buu do all of that by saying they can wish them back with the Dragon Balls. It adds an interesting edge of the Buu arc that sets it apart from Cell and Frieza.
Definitely. The humor and horror work in tandem in the Boo arc. There's a sense of shit hitting the fan faster than any of the characters can keep up with. Part of the reason Gotenks plays so well as a source of humor is precisely because he's sandwiched into such a dire section of the plot--characters are forced to stake their last hopes on a cosmically powerful eight-year-old who, for the first time in all of Dragon Ball, actually acts like a cosmically powerful eight-year-old.

I don't know that I'd call it self-parody, but yes, I absolutely think the Boo arc is riffing on the series' own formulas and expectations in certain ways. It doesn't take away from the fact that it's still presenting its story sincerely, though, and that its events contain some of the most genuinely horrific elements of the series.

It's also absolutely my favorite arc in the series. For its final story line, Dragon Ball really comes into its own.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 16543
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: The Buu Arc as a Self Parody?

Post by ABED » Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:32 am

I don't think it takes 500 chapters to come into its own. My appraisal of the arc has changed, but I'd still put it to the bottom of the list of arcs. I like that Toriyama hangs a lantern on some of his tropes. My favorite example is when Goku points out Elder Kaioshin's ability to bring out someone's dormant power isn't unique. However, it's too long and the mix of humor and stakes doesn't work in this arc as well as it does in others. I wouldn't call it a parody.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

Vijay
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1150
Joined: Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:48 am

Re: The Buu Arc as a Self Parody?

Post by Vijay » Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:42 am

It does come off as Toriyama's way of trolling. God knows who. Maybe pressurizing Shueisha executive producers, TOEI staffs, hell even overwhelming burden exerted by a decade long workload & overwhelming fan-expectation

Think abt it. Cell Arc was vastly successful. Had Boo Arc been another fantastic outing, Shueisha, TOEI & fans alike would've hunted down Toriyama to continue till the last day he takes his breath on this planet.

Which is not reasonble at all.

Some call it parody. While some call it subversion.

I call it AT way of having things his way. Meaning, he wanted Boo Arc to be different compared to previous 4-5 major story arcs (Piccolo Daimou, Saiyan, Frieza, Android Arc) being comedic & wacky.

End of the day, Boo Arc felt like a very good story, told in different tone. Dats all.

Its still a great Arc imo. I like it. Manga felt supremely fast-paced & funny as hell.

Anime Boo Arc diluted some of AT's intention, but did felt satisfying Arc

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: The Buu Arc as a Self Parody?

Post by sintzu » Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:53 am

Vijay wrote:Think abt it. Cell Arc was vastly successful. Had Boo Arc been another fantastic outing, Shueisha, TOEI & fans alike would've hunted down Toriyama to continue till the last day he takes his breath on this planet.
Toriyama didn't write it with the intention of making it worse in fears of having to write more if it was good, he said he made up his mind about it being the final arc before he even wrote it so regardless of how good or bad it was going to turn out, the decision to end the manga was already made. He also said he decided to go out doing whatever he wanted to cause it was going to be the final one.

You can read more about Toriyama's thought process while working on the manga here :

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... interview/

I'm personally happy with it being the final arc as it tied everything up nicely and led the franchise out on a very high note.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

User avatar
Majin Buu
Regular
Posts: 538
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 2:23 pm

Re: The Buu Arc as a Self Parody?

Post by Majin Buu » Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:02 pm

Shaddy wrote:but stuff like Gohan being ineffective, the Spirit Bomb actually working, and Buu taking so fucking long to beat that the story stops being fun are more likely the product of artificial extension and rewrites than the much more obvious stuff like Mister Satan's presence and Gotenks's wasting time.
Yes. What happened with Gohan was the result of Toriyama deciding he wasn't fit to be the lead, that is true, and is something that just happened to fit into what I'm talking about rather than something that was intentional.

But with those other things, I always come back to the fact that Toriyama is and always will be a gag-manga author and is not above subverting his own conventions. Yes, those could just be a result of editorial decisions too, but stuff like Buu coming back from being reduced to vapor feels like Toriyama intentionally escalating things to the point of ridiculousness for comedic effect. Yes, it didn't work for everyone, but it's the type of thing I can picture Toryama doing.

Same thing with the Genki Dama. Using the Genki Dama in conjunction with an elaborate strategy to take down the villain rather than the new Super Saiyan form overpowering the villain is something that feels more like active subversion than an editorial rewrite (and I'm talking more about the strategy and collaboration that went into Buu's defeat, not so much the fact that the Genki Dama worked for once).

User avatar
ekrolo2
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7828
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:27 am
Location: Split, Croatia

Re: The Buu Arc as a Self Parody?

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:16 pm

ABED wrote:However, it's too long and the mix of humor and stakes doesn't work in this arc as well as it does in others. I wouldn't call it a parody.
I think the best example of the irreverence getting in the way of investment comes from Gotenks and by extension, Goten and Trunks, really not seeming to give a crap that Boo essentially kills everyone they know and care about. I mean, they cry about Vegeta and Gohan and want to get revenge but this quickly vanishes in favor of their usual antics. Then Gotenks returns to the Lookout in time to see Super Boo eat his mom(s) along with everyone else and he seems to care even less.

Gotenks also feels like a big waste of time because Gohan training in preparation for another big power-up is set up almost as soon as Gotenks himself is which basically tells us the audience that Gotenks won't do jack, much less beat the villain, before Gohan gets his next whatever power up. Then there's Super Boo who is by far among the most boring antagonist the series has ever produced and a big step down from Fat Boo.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):

User avatar
Majin Buu
Regular
Posts: 538
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 2:23 pm

Re: The Buu Arc as a Self Parody?

Post by Majin Buu » Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:05 pm

ekrolo2 wrote: Then Gotenks returns to the Lookout in time to see Super Boo eat his mom(s) along with everyone else and he seems to care even less.
Um, no. Gotenks gets genuinely pissed off after seeing that. Yeah, he still does some antics afterwards, but he's mostly fighting seriously from that point.

User avatar
ekrolo2
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7828
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:27 am
Location: Split, Croatia

Re: The Buu Arc as a Self Parody?

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:19 pm

Majin Buu wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote: Then Gotenks returns to the Lookout in time to see Super Boo eat his mom(s) along with everyone else and he seems to care even less.
Um, no. Gotenks gets genuinely pissed off after seeing that. Yeah, he still does some antics afterwards, but he's mostly fighting seriously from that point.
He dicks around immediately and constantly after his declaration of getting back at Boo. Toriyama has him get mad then immediately forgets this in the following chapter.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):

User avatar
Majin Buu
Regular
Posts: 538
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 2:23 pm

Re: The Buu Arc as a Self Parody?

Post by Majin Buu » Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:43 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:He dicks around immediately and constantly after his declaration of getting back at Boo. Toriyama has him get mad then immediately forgets this in the following chapter.
He expressed anger when he realized what Buu had done. It's factually incorrect to say that he didn't care. He's still going to engage in some silly antics because he's a comedic character with an enormous ego (and again, he was mostly fighting seriously from that point on), but it's incorrect to claim that he didn't care about what Buu did.

User avatar
ekrolo2
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7828
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:27 am
Location: Split, Croatia

Re: The Buu Arc as a Self Parody?

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:45 pm

Majin Buu wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:He dicks around immediately and constantly after his declaration of getting back at Boo. Toriyama has him get mad then immediately forgets this in the following chapter.
He expressed anger when he realized what Buu had done. It's factually incorrect to say that he didn't care. He's still going to engage in some silly antics because he's a comedic character with an enormous ego (and again, he was mostly fighting seriously from that point on), but it's incorrect to claim that he didn't care about what Buu did.
True, he cares momentarily only for Toriyama to ruin it with more gags which is no excuse as Fat Boo also served a gag character purpose and Toriyama created legitimate development for him like learning morality, helping cure people, risk his life to stop Kid Boo all of which was done with sincerity Gotenks never properly got.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):

Vijay
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1150
Joined: Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:48 am

Re: The Buu Arc as a Self Parody?

Post by Vijay » Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:59 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
Majin Buu wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:He dicks around immediately and constantly after his declaration of getting back at Boo. Toriyama has him get mad then immediately forgets this in the following chapter.
He expressed anger when he realized what Buu had done. It's factually incorrect to say that he didn't care. He's still going to engage in some silly antics because he's a comedic character with an enormous ego (and again, he was mostly fighting seriously from that point on), but it's incorrect to claim that he didn't care about what Buu did.
True, he cares momentarily only for Toriyama to ruin it with more gags which is no excuse as Fat Boo also served a gag character purpose and Toriyama created legitimate development for him like learning morality, helping cure people, risk his life to stop Kid Boo all of which was done with sincerity Gotenks never properly got.
Umm, the one riskin life to stop Kid Boo was Good Boo.

But I agree with all ya points

Btw, Gotenks was more of Namek/Frieza Arc Vegeta-ripoff

Fat Boo had his moments, but AT seemed to purposely avoid going dreadful pathway of creating a complex, unique & excruciating designed villain

Even with Super Boo, by far ultimate badass incarnation he still wasnt characterized properly & Toriyama gave vibes of purposefully choosing to gag off

Post Reply