Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?

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Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:25 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Because the almighty Yen has a significant bearing on the direction of Dragon Ball these days and Gotenks moves merch more than Teen Goten would.
I'm actually interested how true the merchandise explanation is, BaggieSaiyan seems to think its not based on the fact lots of newer stuff isn't getting merch produced for it.
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Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:02 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Because the almighty Yen has a significant bearing on the direction of Dragon Ball these days and Gotenks moves merch more than Teen Goten would.
I'm actually interested how true the merchandise explanation is, BaggieSaiyan seems to think its not based on the fact lots of newer stuff isn't getting merch produced for it.
Dragon Ball, as an entity in itself, is at the end of the day is driven by how much money it can make. I mean, the newest Dragon Ball movie is centered around a character based purely on his popularity.

But the franchise isn't completely cynically merchandise driven like Transformers, Digimon, My Little Pony, Power Rangers etc. As any kind of Dragon Ball story cropped up these days is completely inconsequential to the original product Toriyama crafted and finished decades ago.

BaggieSaiyan is correct in his assessment that merchandise sales don't totally dictate the mentality of all of the stories in modern Dragon Ball. I mean, if that were the case, every already extremely popular Saiyan character would be handed Super Saiyan Blue and/or Ultra Instinct.

But Bandia's profit margin -- with regards to Dragon Ball as an IP -- does have some hand in a few of the story beats every now and again. But it's nothing overtly offensive. Probably the worst example modern Dragon Ball has produced of shameless advertising was Kale. She initially existed just to shill out Broly. But ultimately her existence in Super bears no significant weight in the grand context of Dragon Ball's narrative, so she's pretty harmless.

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Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?

Post by Puaru » Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:56 pm

So if Goten is actually 13 now, despite looking the way he does, does that mean he is actually all horney and stuff like a regular 13 year old? Because that would be weird as fuck when he looks like a 7 year old.

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Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?

Post by SSJgogeto » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:07 am

JohnnyCashKami wrote:I miss Teen Goten (or Adult Goten, officially) but he only appeared in one DB series. :(
Not really:

Image

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCIzat4__II

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Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?

Post by Alruneia » Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:01 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:
JohnnyCashKami wrote:I miss Teen Goten (or Adult Goten, officially) but he only appeared in one DB series. :(
Not really:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCIzat4__II
Your screenshot is from GT and your video is from GT. Here, use this instead:
Like I said before, no need to bring up GT Goten when EoZ Goten exists.
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Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?

Post by GT_Goten10 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:10 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:
JohnnyCashKami wrote:I miss Teen Goten (or Adult Goten, officially) but he only appeared in one DB series. :(
Not really:

Image

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCIzat4__II
1-2 years before the end of Z :D
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Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?

Post by JohnnyCashKami » Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:15 pm

Alruneia wrote:
SSJgogeto wrote:
JohnnyCashKami wrote:I miss Teen Goten (or Adult Goten, officially) but he only appeared in one DB series. :(
Not really:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCIzat4__II
Your screenshot is from GT and your video is from GT. Here, use this instead:
Like I said before, no need to bring up GT Goten when EoZ Goten exists.
Huh, EoZ Goten and GT Goten look very much alike but then again, GT sorta continued from where Z ended so it's logical Teen Goten would be used.

This leaves Super in an odd place given that Goten was downgraded to a child.

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Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?

Post by Ssjcell » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:25 pm

Because he's goku's son Goku as a teenager looks similar to when he was a kid until he's like 18 it's not too tough to understand

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Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?

Post by JohnnyCashKami » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:33 pm

Ssjcell wrote:Because he's goku's son Goku as a teenager looks similar to when he was a kid until he's like 18 it's not too tough to understand
Well, by that thought of process then Gohan would have never become a teen nor an adult. Because, you know, he too looks like his father.

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Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?

Post by PFM18 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:03 pm

JohnnyCashKami wrote:
Ssjcell wrote:Because he's goku's son Goku as a teenager looks similar to when he was a kid until he's like 18 it's not too tough to understand
Well, by that thought of process then Gohan would have never become a teen nor an adult. Because, you know, he too looks like his father.
What? That that makes no sense.

The premise he was saying is that his father didn't show any real growth as a teenager and only started to really grow when he hit 18. When Gohan was around that age was the first we saw him actually look that much older. This has nothing to do with looking too much like your father.

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Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?

Post by JohnnyCashKami » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:07 pm

PFM18 wrote:
JohnnyCashKami wrote:
Ssjcell wrote:Because he's goku's son Goku as a teenager looks similar to when he was a kid until he's like 18 it's not too tough to understand
Well, by that thought of process then Gohan would have never become a teen nor an adult. Because, you know, he too looks like his father.
What? That that makes no sense.

The premise he was saying is that his father didn't show any real growth as a teenager and only started to really grow when he hit 18. When Gohan was around that age was the first we saw him actually look that much older. This has nothing to do with looking too much like your father.
Saying Gohan only grew by the age of 18 is a lie. Gohan evolved once he became a pre-adolescent (Teen Gohan).

The user Ssjcell was just trying to use a cheap excuse to try to reason why Goten should still be kept as a child while Goten was a teen in EoZ and GT.

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Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?

Post by Ssjcell » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:50 pm

JohnnyCashKami wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
JohnnyCashKami wrote: Well, by that thought of process then Gohan would have never become a teen nor an adult. Because, you know, he too looks like his father.
What? That that makes no sense.

The premise he was saying is that his father didn't show any real growth as a teenager and only started to really grow when he hit 18. When Gohan was around that age was the first we saw him actually look that much older. This has nothing to do with looking too much like your father.
Saying Gohan only grew by the age of 18 is a lie. Gohan evolved once he became a pre-adolescent (Teen Gohan).

The user Ssjcell was just trying to use a cheap excuse to try to reason why Goten should still be kept as a child while Goten was a teen in EoZ and GT.
It's not an excuse it's a legitimate reason he is gonna hit a growth spurt soon in Dragonball Goku changed so much that his friends didn't even recognize him

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Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?

Post by PFM18 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:05 pm

Ssjcell wrote:
JohnnyCashKami wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
What? That that makes no sense.

The premise he was saying is that his father didn't show any real growth as a teenager and only started to really grow when he hit 18. When Gohan was around that age was the first we saw him actually look that much older. This has nothing to do with looking too much like your father.
Saying Gohan only grew by the age of 18 is a lie. Gohan evolved once he became a pre-adolescent (Teen Gohan).

The user Ssjcell was just trying to use a cheap excuse to try to reason why Goten should still be kept as a child while Goten was a teen in EoZ and GT.
It's not an excuse it's a legitimate reason he is gonna hit a growth spurt soon in Dragonball Goku changed so much that his friends didn't even recognize him
A 3 year time skip and nobody recognized him.....wait a second here, what is in 3 years? EoZ? Well would you look at that!

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Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?

Post by majinwarman » Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:32 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Because the almighty Yen has a significant bearing on the direction of Dragon Ball these days and Gotenks moves merch more than Teen Goten would.
I'm actually interested how true the merchandise explanation is, BaggieSaiyan seems to think its not based on the fact lots of newer stuff isn't getting merch produced for it.
Dragon Ball, as an entity in itself, is at the end of the day is driven by how much money it can make. I mean, the newest Dragon Ball movie is centered around a character based purely on his popularity.

But the franchise isn't completely cynically merchandise driven like Transformers, Digimon, My Little Pony, Power Rangers etc. As any kind of Dragon Ball story cropped up these days is completely inconsequential to the original product Toriyama crafted and finished decades ago.

BaggieSaiyan is correct in his assessment that merchandise sales don't totally dictate the mentality of all of the stories in modern Dragon Ball. I mean, if that were the case, every already extremely popular Saiyan character would be handed Super Saiyan Blue and/or Ultra Instinct.

But Bandia's profit margin -- with regards to Dragon Ball as an IP -- does have some hand in a few of the story beats every now and again. But it's nothing overtly offensive. Probably the worst example modern Dragon Ball has produced of shameless advertising was Kale. She initially existed just to shill out Broly. But ultimately her existence in Super bears no significant weight in the grand context of Dragon Ball's narrative, so she's pretty harmless.
But, that won't stop them from not aging Goten and Trunks up.
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Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:40 pm

Attitudefan wrote:Well, when Toei tried to do new things, changing the look of all the characters with a large time skip, it didn't do too well. That was GT. I know it is a bit of a cop out, but I am sure that since GT didn't do well by going in a very different direction compared to the original series--from character designs to music and colour palette being vastly different--the Super creative and executive team probably didn't want to chance a repeat of GT. That's my guess at least and if it is true, going safe worked better for them. Super is vastly more popular than GT ever was.
You make it sound as if GT was the one and only time that DB had ever jumped forward in time and aged up the entire cast while radically altering their appearance.
Not only did DB plow ahead in time and progress the cast's age fairly often from nearly the beginning, it's one of its most iconic and defining storytelling devices that it's known for.

Hell, the Boo arc (which immediately preceded GT) was itself a radical jump forward in time with a substantial shakeup in the entire cast's age and visual appearance (down to Kuririn ditching his trademark Shaolin look for a full head of hair) and hardly it's first one by then. By this logic DB would've been doomed going all the way back to Goku's first major aging up in the 23rd Budokai.

The reason GT failed had nothing at all to do with moving time forward for the umpteenth time in the series history, and everything to do with general franchise fatigue: by the time GT started, DB had been going for over 11 years solid nonstop as a mega-popular, inescapably ubiquitous pop culture juggernaut.

Many fans had been long vocal by that point in being very much tired of the series in general and talk of it running on fumes and having worn out its welcome by the time of the latter stages if the Boo arc was increasingly common.

Acting as if aging the series cast forward in time is some sort of wild unprecedented risk for DB that was tried the one time in GT and caused the series' near 20 year dormancy is laughably ridiculous at best. Super's blatant and noticeable aversion to moving the timeframe forward is what's unprecedented and against the series general grain for DB.
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Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?

Post by USSJ Roshi » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:03 pm

JohnnyCashKami wrote:TOEI showed what Goten would be as a teenager in Dragon Ball GT but in Dragon Ball Super they regressed back to making him a kid again. I mean, why? Yes, he looks really cute and adorable but they shouldn't limit him to always being a child character.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Gohan eventually grew to being an adult.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
:idea:

Maybe he got caught in the wish that made Pilaf and his group kids.

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Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?

Post by Attitudefan » Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:05 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:
Attitudefan wrote:Well, when Toei tried to do new things, changing the look of all the characters with a large time skip, it didn't do too well. That was GT. I know it is a bit of a cop out, but I am sure that since GT didn't do well by going in a very different direction compared to the original series--from character designs to music and colour palette being vastly different--the Super creative and executive team probably didn't want to chance a repeat of GT. That's my guess at least and if it is true, going safe worked better for them. Super is vastly more popular than GT ever was.
You make it sound as if GT was the one and only time that DB had ever jumped forward in time and aged up the entire cast while radically altering their appearance.
Not only did DB plow ahead in time and progress the cast's age fairly often from nearly the beginning, it's one of its most iconic and defining storytelling devices that it's known for.

Hell, the Boo arc (which immediately preceded GT) was itself a radical jump forward in time with a substantial shakeup in the entire cast's age and visual appearance (down to Kuririn ditching his trademark Shaolin look for a full head of hair) and hardly it's first one by then. By this logic DB would've been doomed going all the way back to Goku's first major aging up in the 23rd Budokai.

The reason GT failed had nothing at all to do with moving time forward for the umpteenth time in the series history, and everything to do with general franchise fatigue: by the time GT started, DB had been going for over 11 years solid nonstop as a mega-popular, inescapably ubiquitous pop culture juggernaut.

Many fans had been long vocal by that point in being very much tired of the series in general and talk of it running on fumes and having worn out its welcome by the time of the latter stages if the Boo arc was increasingly common.

Acting as if aging the series cast forward in time is some sort of wild unprecedented risk for DB that was tried the one time in GT and caused the series' near 20 year dormancy is laughably ridiculous at best. Super's blatant and noticeable aversion to moving the timeframe forward is what's unprecedented and against the series general grain for DB.
Time skips worked in the earlier parts because we got to see our heroes grow into their prime and become masters. GT, especially the first arc, tried to move on to the next generation but never went the full distance to do so. The atmosphere of the show was changed drastically which was not the case for the previous time skips.

And yes franchise fatigue was in place and that is why GT tried to be different but still couldn't leave Goku behind. Dragon Ball is Goku, it is why Gohan could never be the protagonist of the story; GT tried to move on to the next generation but kept Goku at the forefront. It just didn't work. Super is much more familiar in feel and look to DBZ plus has nostalgia rather than fatigue running behind its success.
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Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?

Post by Kataphrut » Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:37 am

The problem with Goten (Trunks too, though he arguably got off better) is being a kid is all his character is. It's this weird thing where he and Trunks were marketed heavily throughout the Buu saga as the kids sidekicks, and were featured heavily in the movies that came out during that time getting up to all sorts of loveable kid-like antics. Gotenks took it further, being a "wacky" cartoon characters whose traits,flaws and techniques all come down to being a kid. So when Toriyama lost interest with them at the end of the arc, they had nowhere else to go. Unlike Gohan, there was never any care put into their development in the first place, so all they've been able to do in modern material is rehash the same ol' antics and keep the same ol' designs even as they rapidly approach age of maturity.

I just realised a perfect comparison: Gohan is a realised character with traits and flaws who developed and grew over multiple stories (that ultimately fell apart at the end, but that's neither here nor there). Goten is Child. He is Kid Sidekick who does Kid Sidekick things while the plot and drama is driven in the serious stories by the grownups. He gets a movie or two to star in, but it's ultimately a side story churned out by the dozen from the Happy Fun Times movie production house.

In other words, Gohan is Tobey Maguire's Spider-Man, Goten is Tom Holland's.

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Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?

Post by Kaiza_Toshiyuki » Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:41 am

USSJ Roshi wrote:
JohnnyCashKami wrote:TOEI showed what Goten would be as a teenager in Dragon Ball GT but in Dragon Ball Super they regressed back to making him a kid again. I mean, why? Yes, he looks really cute and adorable but they shouldn't limit him to always being a child character.
Gohan eventually grew to being an adult.
:idea:

Maybe he got caught in the wish that made Pilaf and his group kids.
I really hope this is sarcasm

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Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?

Post by Waluigiman » Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:04 pm

In-universe: Some unknown force messed up the aging process possibly a result of time traveling or some unseen wish with the Dragon Balls(none are true but just theories.) Goten and Trunks have Kid Goku syndrome and Maron is probably not acting her age and is short because of Krillin's genes.
real life: Goten was designed as a child and is more reckognizable as one. The character design is just this deceiving which is why the cast looks younger. They didn't age Trunks in the Zamasu arc so he could be more visually different from future Trunks(besides the hair color.) but for some reason Toriyama or whoever else designs them just thought it was un-necessary to visually age Goten and Trunks at the Tournament of Power.

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