I'm actually interested how true the merchandise explanation is, BaggieSaiyan seems to think its not based on the fact lots of newer stuff isn't getting merch produced for it.Lord Beerus wrote:Because the almighty Yen has a significant bearing on the direction of Dragon Ball these days and Gotenks moves merch more than Teen Goten would.
Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?
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Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
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Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?
Dragon Ball, as an entity in itself, is at the end of the day is driven by how much money it can make. I mean, the newest Dragon Ball movie is centered around a character based purely on his popularity.ekrolo2 wrote:I'm actually interested how true the merchandise explanation is, BaggieSaiyan seems to think its not based on the fact lots of newer stuff isn't getting merch produced for it.Lord Beerus wrote:Because the almighty Yen has a significant bearing on the direction of Dragon Ball these days and Gotenks moves merch more than Teen Goten would.
But the franchise isn't completely cynically merchandise driven like Transformers, Digimon, My Little Pony, Power Rangers etc. As any kind of Dragon Ball story cropped up these days is completely inconsequential to the original product Toriyama crafted and finished decades ago.
BaggieSaiyan is correct in his assessment that merchandise sales don't totally dictate the mentality of all of the stories in modern Dragon Ball. I mean, if that were the case, every already extremely popular Saiyan character would be handed Super Saiyan Blue and/or Ultra Instinct.
But Bandia's profit margin -- with regards to Dragon Ball as an IP -- does have some hand in a few of the story beats every now and again. But it's nothing overtly offensive. Probably the worst example modern Dragon Ball has produced of shameless advertising was Kale. She initially existed just to shill out Broly. But ultimately her existence in Super bears no significant weight in the grand context of Dragon Ball's narrative, so she's pretty harmless.
Spoiler:
Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?
So if Goten is actually 13 now, despite looking the way he does, does that mean he is actually all horney and stuff like a regular 13 year old? Because that would be weird as fuck when he looks like a 7 year old.
Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?
Not really:JohnnyCashKami wrote:I miss Teen Goten (or Adult Goten, officially) but he only appeared in one DB series.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCIzat4__II
Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?
Your screenshot is from GT and your video is from GT. Here, use this instead:SSJgogeto wrote:Not really:JohnnyCashKami wrote:I miss Teen Goten (or Adult Goten, officially) but he only appeared in one DB series.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCIzat4__II
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Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?
1-2 years before the end of ZSSJgogeto wrote:Not really:JohnnyCashKami wrote:I miss Teen Goten (or Adult Goten, officially) but he only appeared in one DB series.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCIzat4__II
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Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?
Huh, EoZ Goten and GT Goten look very much alike but then again, GT sorta continued from where Z ended so it's logical Teen Goten would be used.Alruneia wrote:Your screenshot is from GT and your video is from GT. Here, use this instead:SSJgogeto wrote:Not really:JohnnyCashKami wrote:I miss Teen Goten (or Adult Goten, officially) but he only appeared in one DB series.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCIzat4__IILike I said before, no need to bring up GT Goten when EoZ Goten exists.Spoiler:
This leaves Super in an odd place given that Goten was downgraded to a child.
Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?
Because he's goku's son Goku as a teenager looks similar to when he was a kid until he's like 18 it's not too tough to understand
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Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?
Well, by that thought of process then Gohan would have never become a teen nor an adult. Because, you know, he too looks like his father.Ssjcell wrote:Because he's goku's son Goku as a teenager looks similar to when he was a kid until he's like 18 it's not too tough to understand
Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?
What? That that makes no sense.JohnnyCashKami wrote:Well, by that thought of process then Gohan would have never become a teen nor an adult. Because, you know, he too looks like his father.Ssjcell wrote:Because he's goku's son Goku as a teenager looks similar to when he was a kid until he's like 18 it's not too tough to understand
The premise he was saying is that his father didn't show any real growth as a teenager and only started to really grow when he hit 18. When Gohan was around that age was the first we saw him actually look that much older. This has nothing to do with looking too much like your father.
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Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?
Saying Gohan only grew by the age of 18 is a lie. Gohan evolved once he became a pre-adolescent (Teen Gohan).PFM18 wrote:What? That that makes no sense.JohnnyCashKami wrote:Well, by that thought of process then Gohan would have never become a teen nor an adult. Because, you know, he too looks like his father.Ssjcell wrote:Because he's goku's son Goku as a teenager looks similar to when he was a kid until he's like 18 it's not too tough to understand
The premise he was saying is that his father didn't show any real growth as a teenager and only started to really grow when he hit 18. When Gohan was around that age was the first we saw him actually look that much older. This has nothing to do with looking too much like your father.
The user Ssjcell was just trying to use a cheap excuse to try to reason why Goten should still be kept as a child while Goten was a teen in EoZ and GT.
Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?
It's not an excuse it's a legitimate reason he is gonna hit a growth spurt soon in Dragonball Goku changed so much that his friends didn't even recognize himJohnnyCashKami wrote:Saying Gohan only grew by the age of 18 is a lie. Gohan evolved once he became a pre-adolescent (Teen Gohan).PFM18 wrote:What? That that makes no sense.JohnnyCashKami wrote: Well, by that thought of process then Gohan would have never become a teen nor an adult. Because, you know, he too looks like his father.
The premise he was saying is that his father didn't show any real growth as a teenager and only started to really grow when he hit 18. When Gohan was around that age was the first we saw him actually look that much older. This has nothing to do with looking too much like your father.
The user Ssjcell was just trying to use a cheap excuse to try to reason why Goten should still be kept as a child while Goten was a teen in EoZ and GT.
Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?
A 3 year time skip and nobody recognized him.....wait a second here, what is in 3 years? EoZ? Well would you look at that!Ssjcell wrote:It's not an excuse it's a legitimate reason he is gonna hit a growth spurt soon in Dragonball Goku changed so much that his friends didn't even recognize himJohnnyCashKami wrote:Saying Gohan only grew by the age of 18 is a lie. Gohan evolved once he became a pre-adolescent (Teen Gohan).PFM18 wrote:
What? That that makes no sense.
The premise he was saying is that his father didn't show any real growth as a teenager and only started to really grow when he hit 18. When Gohan was around that age was the first we saw him actually look that much older. This has nothing to do with looking too much like your father.
The user Ssjcell was just trying to use a cheap excuse to try to reason why Goten should still be kept as a child while Goten was a teen in EoZ and GT.
Spoiler:
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Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?
But, that won't stop them from not aging Goten and Trunks up.Lord Beerus wrote:Dragon Ball, as an entity in itself, is at the end of the day is driven by how much money it can make. I mean, the newest Dragon Ball movie is centered around a character based purely on his popularity.ekrolo2 wrote:I'm actually interested how true the merchandise explanation is, BaggieSaiyan seems to think its not based on the fact lots of newer stuff isn't getting merch produced for it.Lord Beerus wrote:Because the almighty Yen has a significant bearing on the direction of Dragon Ball these days and Gotenks moves merch more than Teen Goten would.
But the franchise isn't completely cynically merchandise driven like Transformers, Digimon, My Little Pony, Power Rangers etc. As any kind of Dragon Ball story cropped up these days is completely inconsequential to the original product Toriyama crafted and finished decades ago.
BaggieSaiyan is correct in his assessment that merchandise sales don't totally dictate the mentality of all of the stories in modern Dragon Ball. I mean, if that were the case, every already extremely popular Saiyan character would be handed Super Saiyan Blue and/or Ultra Instinct.
But Bandia's profit margin -- with regards to Dragon Ball as an IP -- does have some hand in a few of the story beats every now and again. But it's nothing overtly offensive. Probably the worst example modern Dragon Ball has produced of shameless advertising was Kale. She initially existed just to shill out Broly. But ultimately her existence in Super bears no significant weight in the grand context of Dragon Ball's narrative, so she's pretty harmless.
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Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?
You make it sound as if GT was the one and only time that DB had ever jumped forward in time and aged up the entire cast while radically altering their appearance.Attitudefan wrote:Well, when Toei tried to do new things, changing the look of all the characters with a large time skip, it didn't do too well. That was GT. I know it is a bit of a cop out, but I am sure that since GT didn't do well by going in a very different direction compared to the original series--from character designs to music and colour palette being vastly different--the Super creative and executive team probably didn't want to chance a repeat of GT. That's my guess at least and if it is true, going safe worked better for them. Super is vastly more popular than GT ever was.
Not only did DB plow ahead in time and progress the cast's age fairly often from nearly the beginning, it's one of its most iconic and defining storytelling devices that it's known for.
Hell, the Boo arc (which immediately preceded GT) was itself a radical jump forward in time with a substantial shakeup in the entire cast's age and visual appearance (down to Kuririn ditching his trademark Shaolin look for a full head of hair) and hardly it's first one by then. By this logic DB would've been doomed going all the way back to Goku's first major aging up in the 23rd Budokai.
The reason GT failed had nothing at all to do with moving time forward for the umpteenth time in the series history, and everything to do with general franchise fatigue: by the time GT started, DB had been going for over 11 years solid nonstop as a mega-popular, inescapably ubiquitous pop culture juggernaut.
Many fans had been long vocal by that point in being very much tired of the series in general and talk of it running on fumes and having worn out its welcome by the time of the latter stages if the Boo arc was increasingly common.
Acting as if aging the series cast forward in time is some sort of wild unprecedented risk for DB that was tried the one time in GT and caused the series' near 20 year dormancy is laughably ridiculous at best. Super's blatant and noticeable aversion to moving the timeframe forward is what's unprecedented and against the series general grain for DB.
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Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
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Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?
JohnnyCashKami wrote:TOEI showed what Goten would be as a teenager in Dragon Ball GT but in Dragon Ball Super they regressed back to making him a kid again. I mean, why? Yes, he looks really cute and adorable but they shouldn't limit him to always being a child character.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Gohan eventually grew to being an adult.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Maybe he got caught in the wish that made Pilaf and his group kids.
- Attitudefan
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Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?
Time skips worked in the earlier parts because we got to see our heroes grow into their prime and become masters. GT, especially the first arc, tried to move on to the next generation but never went the full distance to do so. The atmosphere of the show was changed drastically which was not the case for the previous time skips.Kunzait_83 wrote:You make it sound as if GT was the one and only time that DB had ever jumped forward in time and aged up the entire cast while radically altering their appearance.Attitudefan wrote:Well, when Toei tried to do new things, changing the look of all the characters with a large time skip, it didn't do too well. That was GT. I know it is a bit of a cop out, but I am sure that since GT didn't do well by going in a very different direction compared to the original series--from character designs to music and colour palette being vastly different--the Super creative and executive team probably didn't want to chance a repeat of GT. That's my guess at least and if it is true, going safe worked better for them. Super is vastly more popular than GT ever was.
Not only did DB plow ahead in time and progress the cast's age fairly often from nearly the beginning, it's one of its most iconic and defining storytelling devices that it's known for.
Hell, the Boo arc (which immediately preceded GT) was itself a radical jump forward in time with a substantial shakeup in the entire cast's age and visual appearance (down to Kuririn ditching his trademark Shaolin look for a full head of hair) and hardly it's first one by then. By this logic DB would've been doomed going all the way back to Goku's first major aging up in the 23rd Budokai.
The reason GT failed had nothing at all to do with moving time forward for the umpteenth time in the series history, and everything to do with general franchise fatigue: by the time GT started, DB had been going for over 11 years solid nonstop as a mega-popular, inescapably ubiquitous pop culture juggernaut.
Many fans had been long vocal by that point in being very much tired of the series in general and talk of it running on fumes and having worn out its welcome by the time of the latter stages if the Boo arc was increasingly common.
Acting as if aging the series cast forward in time is some sort of wild unprecedented risk for DB that was tried the one time in GT and caused the series' near 20 year dormancy is laughably ridiculous at best. Super's blatant and noticeable aversion to moving the timeframe forward is what's unprecedented and against the series general grain for DB.
And yes franchise fatigue was in place and that is why GT tried to be different but still couldn't leave Goku behind. Dragon Ball is Goku, it is why Gohan could never be the protagonist of the story; GT tried to move on to the next generation but kept Goku at the forefront. It just didn't work. Super is much more familiar in feel and look to DBZ plus has nostalgia rather than fatigue running behind its success.
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Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?
The problem with Goten (Trunks too, though he arguably got off better) is being a kid is all his character is. It's this weird thing where he and Trunks were marketed heavily throughout the Buu saga as the kids sidekicks, and were featured heavily in the movies that came out during that time getting up to all sorts of loveable kid-like antics. Gotenks took it further, being a "wacky" cartoon characters whose traits,flaws and techniques all come down to being a kid. So when Toriyama lost interest with them at the end of the arc, they had nowhere else to go. Unlike Gohan, there was never any care put into their development in the first place, so all they've been able to do in modern material is rehash the same ol' antics and keep the same ol' designs even as they rapidly approach age of maturity.
I just realised a perfect comparison: Gohan is a realised character with traits and flaws who developed and grew over multiple stories (that ultimately fell apart at the end, but that's neither here nor there). Goten is Child. He is Kid Sidekick who does Kid Sidekick things while the plot and drama is driven in the serious stories by the grownups. He gets a movie or two to star in, but it's ultimately a side story churned out by the dozen from the Happy Fun Times movie production house.
In other words, Gohan is Tobey Maguire's Spider-Man, Goten is Tom Holland's.
I just realised a perfect comparison: Gohan is a realised character with traits and flaws who developed and grew over multiple stories (that ultimately fell apart at the end, but that's neither here nor there). Goten is Child. He is Kid Sidekick who does Kid Sidekick things while the plot and drama is driven in the serious stories by the grownups. He gets a movie or two to star in, but it's ultimately a side story churned out by the dozen from the Happy Fun Times movie production house.
In other words, Gohan is Tobey Maguire's Spider-Man, Goten is Tom Holland's.
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Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?
I really hope this is sarcasmUSSJ Roshi wrote:JohnnyCashKami wrote:TOEI showed what Goten would be as a teenager in Dragon Ball GT but in Dragon Ball Super they regressed back to making him a kid again. I mean, why? Yes, he looks really cute and adorable but they shouldn't limit him to always being a child character.
Gohan eventually grew to being an adult.Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Maybe he got caught in the wish that made Pilaf and his group kids.
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Re: Why is Goten still a kid in Modern Dragon Ball?
In-universe: Some unknown force messed up the aging process possibly a result of time traveling or some unseen wish with the Dragon Balls(none are true but just theories.) Goten and Trunks have Kid Goku syndrome and Maron is probably not acting her age and is short because of Krillin's genes.
real life: Goten was designed as a child and is more reckognizable as one. The character design is just this deceiving which is why the cast looks younger. They didn't age Trunks in the Zamasu arc so he could be more visually different from future Trunks(besides the hair color.) but for some reason Toriyama or whoever else designs them just thought it was un-necessary to visually age Goten and Trunks at the Tournament of Power.
real life: Goten was designed as a child and is more reckognizable as one. The character design is just this deceiving which is why the cast looks younger. They didn't age Trunks in the Zamasu arc so he could be more visually different from future Trunks(besides the hair color.) but for some reason Toriyama or whoever else designs them just thought it was un-necessary to visually age Goten and Trunks at the Tournament of Power.