Toyotaro's art

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Doctor.
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Toyotaro's art

Post by Doctor. » Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:49 pm

This may be stepping into forbidden ground considering the manga thread is locked right now, but after seeing the leaks this week, I couldn't help notice how atrocious Toyotaro's art has gotten. And obviously this doesn't apply to the latest chapter, the entire ToP has been progressively getting worse month-by-month. There's no sense of scale, proportions and anatomy are screwed up beyond belief, constant repetition in terms of poses, moves and expressions, bland and boring angles. It's like he took the worst possible traits of modern Yamamuro and modern DB promotional material and incorporated it into his art. Even his very best (his U6 and Black arc work) is unimpressive; it feels lifeless, dull and overall lacking in any sense of dynamism.

So my question is: his writing skill aside, from an artwork standpoint, is anyone sincerely happy with Toyotaro as the one to carry on with this series? As the successor to an incredibly talented and professional artist such as Toriyama, he doesn't do the series justice, and that would be fine if Super was merely a short side story, but it's clear at this point that Dragon Ball is here to stay and Toyotaro is its face in the manga side.

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Re: Toyotaro's art

Post by Fionordequester » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:03 pm

Yes, I am glad he was the successor. I personally think his art looks great; plus it's far more consistent than what the anime gets.
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Re: Toyotaro's art

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:09 pm

I'd definitely agree with the fact he's got a Yamamuro problem of having only a very limited idea of how to frame combat scenes, though after re-reading the Zamasu arc from him, I'd say my general opinion on him has improved writing and art wise.
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Re: Toyotaro's art

Post by Spider-Man » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:12 pm

Yeah I noticed that, his art is getting weaker heck he keep drawing Jiren like el hermano.
    Although I do like how he draw the U6 saiyans.

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    Re: Toyotaro's art

    Post by kudo6000 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:30 pm

    Toyotarou's art has always been mediocre, but with each passing chapter, it gets progressively worse.

    I could overlook it if the manga itself was good story telling-wise, much like with other manga.

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    Re: Toyotaro's art

    Post by Shaddy » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:34 pm

    It's just seemed derpy as time has passed. I can't say it's all bad but stuff just feels off at a lot of points.

    I don't think the "Better than le anime xddd" excuse is viable, by the way. Not when one is held back by being, y'know, animated, and is drawn by multiple people so of course it wouldn't all look the same constantly.
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    Re: Toyotaro's art

    Post by Majin Jator » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:42 pm

    I'm not happy with him as the successor, but I don't give him much thought either. The schedule doesn't help him, that's for sure; but I think he is a bad visual narrator, the rhythm of his battles usually ruined by unnecessary panels. This is the worst sin for someone labeled as Toriyama's successor.

    I won't say any of the usual suspects (Young Jiji, Dragon Garou Lee...) is a better candidate than him, but that doesn't make him good.

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    Re: Toyotaro's art

    Post by kudo6000 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:49 pm

    Even Toriyama's modern art (coming from a mini-gag comic) is superior to Toyotarou. Using the pages below, Neko Majin, and Jaco as an example.

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    Re: Toyotaro's art

    Post by Shaddy » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:55 pm

    Okay, well I don't think it's really a surprise that the guy who drew the series from day one knows how it's supposed to be drawn the best. Toriyama's as capable an artist now as he's ever been.
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    Re: Toyotaro's art

    Post by Doctor. » Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:06 pm

    kudo6000 wrote:Even Toriyama's modern art (coming from a mini-gag comic) is superior to Toyotarou. Using the pages below, Neko Majin, and Jaco as an example.
    Neko Majin has some really impressive stuff.
    This flows so seamlessly and has such interesting angles and it would barely register as a filler fight in Dragon Ball. And yet, it would be hard to find something as visually interesting in anything Toyotaro draws unless he's feeling exceptionally creative.
    Shaddy wrote:Okay, well I don't think it's really a surprise that the guy who drew the series from day one knows how it's supposed to be drawn the best. Toriyama's as capable an artist now as he's ever been.
    Well, obviously Toriyama is always going to be better at drawing Dragon Ball than anyone else, but I don't think the comparisons are entirely unfair. Toyotaro is not only being judged by his skill as a Dragon Ball artist, but as a battle manga artist as well; and compared to his predecessor, he fails on both fronts. It's not unfair to expect a suitable successor to take charge of the series.

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    Re: Toyotaro's art

    Post by BlueBasilisk » Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:17 pm

    I've noticed he has a serious problem drawing necks. If there's a character powering up or doing one of those rush attacks from any angle but head-on, their neck is most likely going to be completely out of place, and often a limb or two.

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    Re: Toyotaro's art

    Post by Shaddy » Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:34 pm

    Doctor. wrote: Well, obviously Toriyama is always going to be better at drawing Dragon Ball than anyone else, but I don't think the comparisons are entirely unfair. Toyotaro is not only being judged by his skill as a Dragon Ball artist, but as a battle manga artist as well; and compared to his predecessor, he fails on both fronts. It's not unfair to expect a suitable successor to take charge of the series.
    Well no, I'm just saying that being worse at drawing shonen battle manga from the guy who basically invented the modern style isn't much of a criticism. I'm not calling Toyo beyond criticism, in fact I really dislike his approach. It's just better to compare him to, say, other mangaka that Toriyama has worked with or who have worked on other Dragon Ball stuff. And yeah, even compared to them he ain't great. Nagayama's SDBH manga for example. I hate Heroes and it's non-approach to storytelling, but the artwork is much more dynamic and readable always. The artstyle, especially for big bursts of emotion, really looks nothing like what Toriyama would draw, but it's that on purpose. Toyo's Super just feels un-expressive in general.
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    Re: Toyotaro's art

    Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:12 pm

    I'd be interested in seeing someone like Murata do something for DB. A big criticism I have with a lot of Toriyama's supposed successors is that they're way too focused on trying to emulate him that they stunt themselves as artists in their own right. Having someone like Murata who's already got his own thing divorced from DB being put on a project and illustrating it in his own style would make for a refreshing change of pace. Toriyama's shadow is something the franchise period desperately needs to flip off with bold middle fingers erect. Even Shintani's so-called new designs are just a softer version of Namek Era DB while the lauded Takahashi is just aping Yamamuro back when he was worth a damn.
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    Re: Toyotaro's art

    Post by Doctor. » Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:43 pm

    ekrolo2 wrote:I'd be interested in seeing someone like Murata do something for DB. A big criticism I have with a lot of Toriyama's supposed successors is that they're way too focused on trying to emulate him that they stunt themselves as artists in their own right. Having someone like Murata who's already got his own thing divorced from DB being put on a project and illustrating it in his own style would make for a refreshing change of pace. Toriyama's shadow is something the franchise period desperately needs to flip off with bold middle fingers erect. Even Shintani's so-called new designs are just a softer version of Namek Era DB while the lauded Takahashi is just aping Yamamuro back when he was worth a damn.
    I don't think Murata would cut it. He's talented, his art is gorgeous, but his panelling and composition feel too cluttered and busy. There's none of the distinctive Dragon Ball flow. I would prefer someone like Togashi as lazy as he is.

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    Re: Toyotaro's art

    Post by Chuquita » Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:10 pm

    Toyotaro's art looks too much like the art style you'd see in GT and not enough like Toriyama's imo. There's something vaguely 90's mid range Yamamuro about his art. I don't dislike it (I bought the first four volumes) but I only bought the first four. I dropped it once the ToP started.

    It's ok, but it strikes me as something that relies too much on references for the wrong reasons. References are good if you aren't used to drawing certain poses, but I'm talking more about those posable art figures and less about reusing frames from the original Dragon Ball manga as your skeleton when your end product is something official and not just a fan manga sold at a convention.


    He probably doesn't have the time, but I think he needs to practice his anatomy in regards to necks. It's something that can be improved with time and practice naturally, but it won't happen as fast as it would if he set the time aside regularly to try to improve it.
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    Re: Toyotaro's art

    Post by Appers » Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:14 am

    I'm not satisfied with it at all, to be quite honest.

    Toyotaro doesn't have the same solid understanding of anatomy and objects relative to space that Toriyama does and it shows.

    The linework is mediocre, the proportions are off, the poses he makes characters do aren't very dynamic and don't portray the same sense of "movement" and "action" that Toriyama was known for back when dragon ball was still serialized, lacks creativity and he's not very good at drawing machinery or backgrounds either.

    I searched on google and found this comparison photo and I think it illustrates the point I'm trying to make here.
    All in all...

    The easiest way I can describe his art is that it's clearly done by someone who "copies" dragon ball art without being experienced enough to really understand what makes the art style in itself so engaging and expressive. He merely attempts to copy it at face value and it still falls flat.

    Additionally, even though I never cared for his art in the first place, my opinion of him really soured when he copied that Captain America pose for some of his work. Dragon ball deserves better. As for what "better" is, I've honestly got no idea. I've seen some of Dragon GaroLee's work and I feel that although he isn't perfect, he's got a much better understanding of what dragon ball is, and how to portray the characters/scenery more closely to Toriyama in his heyday.

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    Re: Toyotaro's art

    Post by Super Saiyan Swagger » Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:41 am

    I think he's just burnt out with the Tournament of Power. It feels that way not just through his illustrations, but in his writing as well. I reread the Future Trunks arc manga and it is leagues better than his work on the current arc. Makes you wonder what kind of work he'd put out if he was doing this weekly.

    I'm hoping that if Shintani's designs end up being modern Dragon Ball's new look, it'll influence Toyotaro's work. I am not a big fan of his current Yamamuro inspired illustrations.

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    Re: Toyotaro's art

    Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:09 am

    It's a shame to hear he is not improving, there are other fan artists that I am sure would have excelled and honed their craft by now, instead we're stuck with a dude that by the sounds of it still can't even draw a neck properly!

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    Re: Toyotaro's art

    Post by Xeztin » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:18 am

    You’ve also got to look at how far he has improved. Look at his early AF work and compare it to his Super work. He went from drawing a 60 page doujin a year to 50 pages a month. I think he can do a lot better even than the Zamasu arc but doesn’t have the time. Also in the Zamasu arc his art almost looked too good, or more like a CGI 3d chaaracter than a manga drawing which I disliked, this happened multiple times for Zamasu. To be fair as well, we seen Dragon Garrow Lee strugle with the Yamcha manga as he took to long between the Yamcha chapters. The way he acted on his twitter it seemed he probably wouldn’t do another official DB work because of the demand of the work schedule. He is more laid back then Toyotaro in his Toyble days, as he doesn’t seem to have the patience to release a full 50 page manga every month even when he is getting paid for it. Young Jijii on the other hand is pumping out 70 page volumes every month, I think he would been a good candidate for something at least.

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    Re: Toyotaro's art

    Post by Doctor. » Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:18 pm

    Xeztin wrote:You’ve also got to look at how far he has improved. Look at his early AF work and compare it to his Super work. He went from drawing a 60 page doujin a year to 50 pages a month. I think he can do a lot better even than the Zamasu arc but doesn’t have the time. Also in the Zamasu arc his art almost looked too good, or more like a CGI 3d chaaracter than a manga drawing which I disliked, this happened multiple times for Zamasu. To be fair as well, we seen Dragon Garrow Lee strugle with the Yamcha manga as he took to long between the Yamcha chapters. The way he acted on his twitter it seemed he probably wouldn’t do another official DB work because of the demand of the work schedule. He is more laid back then Toyotaro in his Toyble days, as he doesn’t seem to have the patience to release a full 50 page manga every month even when he is getting paid for it. Young Jijii on the other hand is pumping out 70 page volumes every month, I think he would been a good candidate for something at least.
    As long as he stops tracing.

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