Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by ekrolo2 » Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:02 pm

ABED wrote:
I'd had loved to see Yu Yu Hakusho continue, especially if it was just about to break its own routine and subvert its own habits
Which habits?

One of the reasons I like YYH so much is because it was long enough to create a world and live in it and get a lot out of it all the while incrementally growing its characters and changing things up, but left before it began doing the same things over and over again. A big problem I have with DB is that it's too long and it falls into a few big ruts. One big one is taking Goku out of action early in the arc.
You're in for a rough time with the new stuff if/when you get to it.
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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by Zephyr » Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:36 pm

ABED wrote:
I'd had loved to see Yu Yu Hakusho continue, especially if it was just about to break its own routine and subvert its own habits
Which habits?

One of the reasons I like YYH so much is because it was long enough to create a world and live in it and get a lot out of it all the while incrementally growing its characters and changing things up, but left before it began doing the same things over and over again. A big problem I have with DB is that it's too long and it falls into a few big ruts. One big one is taking Goku out of action early in the arc.
I felt like it left right after it just started to flirt with changing things up. Yusuke always finds some miraculous new way to beat the bad guy at the end, sans the final arc. Yusuke always acts the same way, and nobody ever really bats an eye. I'm fine with a character so devoted to a good fight that they'll endanger others, but when Yusuke attacked Koenma, and stopped him from trying to use the Mafuken on Sensui, something that at the time seemed tantamount to bringing about the end of the world, nobody really batted an eye; nobody was like "this is something we need to talk about". The characters butt heads every so often, but it's always quickly resolved; they never come into real, long term conflict with one another; Yusuke's demon heritage seemed like it was going to open something like that up, and the three way Demon king war seemed like it was going to do the same thing, but in both cases it was just very quickly resolved.

Maybe it's because I've only watched the anime as of right now, and perhaps it stems from my own personal issues with the story, but I get the sense that these are the things that Togashi may have been referring to in that interview. I still adore the series, and think it's still very coherent, well-written, and enjoyable, but I feel like is was cut down well before it needed to be, unlike Dragon Ball (which, while you think it went on too long, I think went on just long enough; in either case, we were definitely not in need of more).

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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by ABED » Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:00 pm

Yusuke's demon heritage wasn't about bringing them into conflict, it was about Yusuke resolving his inner conflict. I never got the feeling you got that they interrupted anything. It ended the way it need to. Everyone resolved their inner conflicts. Yusuke's was his self destructive streak. Was he going to end up like either Sensui or Toguro who were looking to die. Hiei had anger issues stemming from being left for dead. Kurama from having two identities. I have zero interest in seeing them in a big conflict. Kurama's not the type, and we've been there, done that with Hiei. Seeing continual progress is refreshing. Conflict is great, but being at each other's throats is been there, done that. The final arc was very different from what came before, so I'm not seeing what habits it didn't break. It did change things up. Yusuke isn't victorious.

After Goku fights the biggest of big bads, the other two are a let down and go on for far too long. DB definitely jumped the shark.

I have very little anime experience beyond those two. I've seen Gundam Wing. Robots are fun, but that series is convoluted. is that a Shonen series?
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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by Blondiebear_17 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:20 pm

1.) Hunter X Hunter
2.) My Hero Academia
3.) Dragon Ball Z
4.) Yu Yu Hakusho
5.) Inuyasha

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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by Blondiebear_17 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 1:07 am

Hellspawn28 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Kunzait_83 wrote:snip
Seems like you like Yu Yu Hakusho quite a bit. Are you not interested in Hunter x Hunter? Level E is also pretty good.

I was gonna say Parasyte seems like your kind of manga, but then I figured it probably isn't really within the Shounen demographic.
I remember Kunzait saying that he didn't like Hunter x Hunter. I personally don't like it and I watch up to 15-17 episodes of the newer show on Toonami. It didn't seem anything special to me and it came off as another "Benn there, done that" type of shows. It was cliche and generic to me.
This is a common opinion I think I personally look back at that stuff very fondly now and I am not really sure why I was not that into it but I didn't feel totally sold on the show as more than a time killer till about episode 35. I also don't mean to sound like one of those people but the dub is not great in my opinion a lot of the voice acting does not measure up to the Japanese performances.

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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by xarmyz » Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:17 am

I can get why people would think Hunter X Hunter and One Piece are better than Dragon Ball but I am utterly at a loss as to why you guys think Yu Yu Hakusho is so good. To me, it is the definition of mediocre with The Dark Tournament being the only good part (and even then it had problems such as Hiei the boring Vegeta knock-off winning his fights much too easily which gets old fast and Genkai not staying dead) And I think the Sensui Arc is outright bad for so many reasons. A main villain who's plan and personality is utterly incoherent going from destroy Humanity at all cost to only caring about fighting Yusuke to really just wanting to die in lazy rehash of Toguro's motives with the excuse that he has multiple personalities to badly cover the the poor character writing. The whole are Humans worse than Demons? theme ultimately being both just widow dressing to the conflict and being misanthropy of the most tiresome adolescent kind. Territory abilities ultimately going nowhere and getting throw out in favor of poor man's DB fights and of course, the out of nowhere, completely unjustified asspull to end all asspulls of Yusuke being of descendant of a Demon King to bring the arc to rushed and anti-climatic ending. And the final arc just makes it worse when it turns out that all the S-Class Demons are fairly nice and reasonable guys which destroys any remain tension the arc had. Togashi even admits in an interview that he is not proud of the back half of YYH because he was burned-out by weekly deadlines and bored with the limitations of the series.

Give me any iteration of Dragon Ball over it any day. (Okay fine, it's better than GT and Super's Movie redux arcs but that's a very low bar to clear.) Give me also Hunter x Hunter which while it can be frustrating at times is absolutely Yu Yu Hakusho done right in my eyes.

Also people who brought up Rurouni Kenshin.... It being written by a vile pedophile who while hypocritically preaching about the value of life in his work, has in the real world contributes to harming of it. That disqualifies it big time.

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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by Blondiebear_17 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:32 am

xarmyz wrote:I can get why people would think Hunter X Hunter and One Piece are better than Dragon Ball but I am utterly at a loss as to why you guys think Yu Yu Hakusho is so good. To me, it is the definition of mediocre with The Dark Tournament being the only good part (and even then it had problems such as Hiei the boring Vegeta knock-off winning his fights much too easily which gets old fast and Genkai not staying dead) And I think the Sensui Arc is outright bad for so many reasons. A main villain who's plan and personality is utterly incoherent going from destroy Humanity at all cost to only caring about fighting Yusuke to really just wanting to die in lazy rehash of Toguro's motives with the excuse that he has multiple personalities to badly cover the the poor character writing. The whole are Humans worse than Demons? theme ultimately being both just widow dressing to the conflict and being misanthropy of the most tiresome adolescent kind. Territory abilities ultimately going nowhere and getting throw out in favor of poor man's DB fights and of course, the out of nowhere, completely unjustified asspull to end all asspulls of Yusuke being of descendant of a Demon King to bring the arc to rushed and anti-climatic ending. And the final arc just makes it worse when it turns out that all the S-Class Demons are fairly nice and reasonable guys which destroys any remain tension the arc had. Togashi even admits in an interview that he is not proud of the back half of YYH because he was burned-out by weekly deadlines and bored with the limitations of the series.

Give me any iteration of Dragon Ball over it any day. (Okay fine, it's better than GT and Super's Movie redux arcs but that's a very low bar to clear.) Give me also Hunter x Hunter which while it can be frustrating at times is absolutely Yu Yu Hakusho done right in my eyes.

Also people who brought up Rurouni Kenshin.... It being written by a vile pedophile who while hypocritically preaching about the value of life in his work, has in the real world contributes to harming of it. That disqualifies it big time.
The characters are so lovable that any shortcomings the plot has don't really matter much to me. The show could literally just be slice of life and I would still enjoy it. I think if you also take away the added humor of the funimation dub theres even less to work with. I believe most people are ranking things by feelings and nostalgia which I think is normal. A lot of the mainstream shonen properties are really bad if you want to judge them as a whole but I think most people don't.

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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by Doctor. » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:35 am

xarmyz wrote: Also people who brought up Rurouni Kenshin.... It being written by a vile pedophile who while hypocritically preaching about the value of life in his work, has in the real world contributes to harming of it. That disqualifies it big time.
How does it discredit his work in any way?

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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by Desassina » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:11 am

Doctor. wrote:
xarmyz wrote: Also people who brought up Rurouni Kenshin.... It being written by a vile pedophile who while hypocritically preaching about the value of life in his work, has in the real world contributes to harming of it. That disqualifies it big time.
How does it discredit his work in any way?
I've seen that joke run around for quite a while. And it's about a manga that was written before the event. The latter is not the joke, but the fact that we should stop reading his work, because I don't know the guy except what was written/drawn by him.

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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:15 pm

Rurouni Kenshin is meh. Just read Lone Wolf & Cub instead ;).
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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:23 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote:Rurouni Kenshin is meh. Just read Lone Wolf & Cub instead ;).
The Rurouni Kenshin manga has stunning artwork, the anime is really good, and the OVA (Tsuioku-hen) is a masterpiece.

But I will check out Lone Wolf & Cub out of curiosity.

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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:36 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:Rurouni Kenshin is meh. Just read Lone Wolf & Cub instead ;).
The Rurouni Kenshin manga has stunning artwork, the anime is really good, and the OVA (Tsuioku-hen) is a masterpiece.

But I will check out Lone Wolf & Cub out of curiosity.
Assassination Classroom is another you should check out. It's probably the only newer Shonen Jump manga that didn't make me want to put my face through a meat grinder.
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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:47 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:Rurouni Kenshin is meh. Just read Lone Wolf & Cub instead ;).
The Rurouni Kenshin manga has stunning artwork, the anime is really good, and the OVA (Tsuioku-hen) is a masterpiece.

But I will check out Lone Wolf & Cub out of curiosity.
Assassination Classroom is another you should check out. It's probably the only newer Shonen Jump manga that didn't make me want to put my face through a meat grinder.
I've actually watched the anime (both seasons), and I was legitimately blown away by how amazing it was. Koro-sensei is one of the best anime characters in the last 15 years. I'd love for him to be my teacher.

I'm currently going through the manga, and trying to finish it while I have the spare time in my schedule. And so far the manga is fucking great. Assassination Classroom really is a hidden gem.

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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by xarmyz » Sun Sep 30, 2018 1:36 pm

Doctor. wrote:
xarmyz wrote: Also people who brought up Rurouni Kenshin.... It being written by a vile pedophile who while hypocritically preaching about the value of life in his work, has in the real world contributes to harming of it. That disqualifies it big time.
How does it discredit his work in any way?
Actions in real life that hurt real people are more important than how good a work of fiction. To not care about that and to continue to praise the work like Lord Berrus just did is privileged and sociopathic.

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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by Doctor. » Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:05 pm

xarmyz wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
xarmyz wrote: Also people who brought up Rurouni Kenshin.... It being written by a vile pedophile who while hypocritically preaching about the value of life in his work, has in the real world contributes to harming of it. That disqualifies it big time.
How does it discredit his work in any way?
Actions in real life that hurt real people are more important than how good a work of fiction. To not care about that and to continue to praise the work like Lord Berrus just did is privileged and sociopathic.
Actions in real life don't affect a work of fiction. A work of fiction stands separate from its author.

How is it "privileged and sociopathic"?

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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by Kunzait_83 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:22 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:Rurouni Kenshin is meh. Just read Lone Wolf & Cub instead ;).
The Rurouni Kenshin manga has stunning artwork, the anime is really good, and the OVA (Tsuioku-hen) is a masterpiece.

But I will check out Lone Wolf & Cub out of curiosity.
Anyone who's into manga in any way should read Lone Wolf & Cub out of way more than just curiosity: its one of the most historically significant, iconic, and best crafted manga of all time.

The Trust & Betrayal OVA is indeed stunningly masterful and essential; but outside of that lone gem, Kenshin is otherwise exceedingly overrated and honestly kinda mediocre (and no, that appraisal has nothing at all to do with the author's warped sexual proclivities: myself and others have been saying this since many, many long years before that all came to light).

Trust & Betrayal aside, Kenshin is basically just " baby's first chanbara manga" (lacking most of the emotional depth and social commentary of its more older-skewed brethren) and its mostly as well regarded as it is (at least in the U.S.) because its one of the only chanbara manga/anime series that most post-CN anime fans can even name (since its both a Shonen Jump and a Toonami title). In and of itself, Kenshin's fine as a starting point to get people (especially kids) hooked into much deeper, better crafted chanbara series. But that's all it should be: a jumping on point for newbies of the genre, not its end all, be all and the one example of it that most people are familiar with.

Chanbara-wise, Lone Wolf & Cub, along with Vagabond, Lady Snowblood, Path of the Assassin, Samurai Executioner, Legend of Kamui, and about a zillion other series all eat Kenshin's lunch effortlessly. Honestly when it comes to Chanbara manga, get Koike or get out: he's the standard-bearer for much of it, and once you dig into his work, its not hard to see why.
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Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by Doctor. » Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:30 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:Rurouni Kenshin is meh. Just read Lone Wolf & Cub instead ;).
The Rurouni Kenshin manga has stunning artwork, the anime is really good, and the OVA (Tsuioku-hen) is a masterpiece.

But I will check out Lone Wolf & Cub out of curiosity.
Anyone who's into manga in any way should read Lone Wolf & Cub out of way more than just curiosity: its one of the most historically significant, iconic, and best crafted manga of all time.

The Trust & Betrayal OVA is indeed stunningly masterful and essential; but outside of that lone gem, Kenshin is otherwise exceedingly overrated and honestly kinda mediocre (and no, that appraisal has nothing at all to do with the author's warped sexual proclivities: myself and others have been saying this since many, many long years before that all came to light).

Trust & Betrayal aside, Kenshin is basically just " baby's first chanbara manga" and its mostly as well regarded as it is (at least in the U.S.) because its one of the only chanbara manga/anime series that most post-CN anime fans can even name (since its both a Shonen Jump and a Toonami title). Lone Wolf & Cub, along with Vagabond, Lady Snowblood, Path of the Assassin, Samurai Executioner, Legend of Kamui, and about a zillion other chanbara series all eat Kenshin's lunch effortlessly. Honestly when it comes to Chanbara manga, get Koike or get out.
This is off-topic, but out of curiosity, Kunzait, have you read any of Naoki Urasawa's work?

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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by Kunzait_83 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:53 pm

Doctor. wrote:This is off-topic, but out of curiosity, Kunzait, have you read any of Naoki Urasawa's work?
Of course. I've read Pineapple Army, Yawara, Master Keaton, Monster, 20th Century Boys, Pluto, and just a little bit of Billy Bat. Yawara was a fairly notable title back in my late 80s/early 90s formative days in fandom and was my first introduction to his work back in the day. And Pineapple Army was something I also gravitated to early on due to my long interest in realistic military-focused manga (though it went untranslated for ages, and like with a ton of untranslated manga at the time I was stuck with raws and online FAQs for entirely too long before an at least partial scanlation finally happened).

Monster and 20th Century Boys both came a bit later on, and need no introduction of course. 20th Century Boys is definitely the guy's magnum opus and deserves all the love & praise it gets and then some. Pluto and Keaton are both also really solid work. Got nothing but love and respect for Urasawa's work overall. He's great.
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Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by ABED » Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:13 pm

Marc Bernardin from the formerly Fatman on Batman podcast and writer on Castle Rock has made numerous mentions about Lonewolf and Cub. I have a backlog of stuff I mean to watch and read, but this is on the list.
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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by Kid Buu » Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:57 pm

Doctor. wrote: What people in the anime community refer to as deconstruction is pretty much a "good, innovative show that toys or shows the flaws in the conventions and tropes of the genre" which is a very loose definition considering it applies to just about every parody show, for instance.
Could you provide some examples on what makes HxH deconstruct tropes? I always see people allege it does, but never see an elaboration on why.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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