Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by Kunzait_83 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:58 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Kunzait_83 wrote:snip
Seems like you like Yu Yu Hakusho quite a bit. Are you not interested in Hunter x Hunter? Level E is also pretty good.

I was gonna say Parasyte seems like your kind of manga, but then I figured it probably isn't really within the Shounen demographic.
Yeah, Parasyte is a very, very cherished and beloved personal favorite of mine, going back to the manga in the mid-90s; my eyes practically bugged out of my skull with shock and joy when the much newer anime was first announced: though I'm definitely not a fan of a few of its design choices for some characters, namely Shin at the beginning, its overall a very solid adaptation and I couldn't be happier that its now a series that younger fans actually at least KNOW exists rather than responding to the title with blank puzzlement. But its in no way, shape or form Shonen in the slightest, so its not at all relevant to this thread.

Hunter X Hunter left a very bad taste in my mouth going back ages ago, and very little of what its done since then has really done much to remedy that. To me its always just been boilerplate, generic turn-of-the-millennium Shonen, with its various stabs at "deconstructing" that whole formula in its later arcs coming across as not terribly interesting or compelling or nearly as "deep" as people like to make it out as. It touches on some decently cool martial arts fantasy/wuxia stuff here or there in certain arcs, but its nothing that YYH hasn't already done VASTLY better.

Level E is a title I really, really need to revisit: I only checked it out once forever and ever ago, and only fuzzily remember it now. All I clearly remember is a few interesting visuals.

Yu Yu Hakusho is easily a better series overall than even DB in my eyes (which obviously I think fairly highly of to begin with), and its basically neck and neck with Fist of the North Star for my all time personal favorite Wuxia anime/manga series; Fist only juuuuust about edges it out, mainly due to Hara's jaw droppingly incredible art and how much I adore the series' world, its themes, and its ridiculously brutal martial arts fighting styles/techniques. YYH though utterly trounces and downright embarrasses pretty much ALL of the various later post-DB "Battle Shonen" series, including its creator's own HxH, and its not even remotely close at all.

It has some of the all time best character dynamics, ingeniously thought out and executed martial arts/wuxia fights and setpieces, spectacular visuals, art, and general design sensibilities, and by far the most interesting and richest subtext of pretty much ANY of these series bar none and without question (that's actually, genuinely there as subtext and not clumsily, amateurishly clunky emo teen-esque monologuing/soliloquising from the various characters that spells everything out in crayon... *cough*Naruto&OnePiece*cough*). It isn't even a contest: YYH is lightyears beyond most of its later competition, HxH included, and would be my immediate go-to were I to recommend only one "Battle Shonen" series to anyone who otherwise is put off by anime/manga.

Not to mention most of YYH's characters are genuinely down to earth, likable, and relatable, as opposed to most of the irritatingly obnoxious, punchable little shit stains that populate most other post-DB Battle Shonen shit: even HxH's Gon is little more than yet another in an endlessly, tiresomely long line of annoying Goku knockoffs ala Luffy, Naruto, etc. And no amount of tepidly dull and milquetoast "genre deconstruction" in the series justifies the hollow, repetitive tiredness of Gon's whole "simple, upbeat, cheerful, naive country bumpkin looking for adventure" shtick that's been done to death endlessly since DB ended (while totally and utterly missing the entire point of why it worked in DB to begin with).

Yusuke, while something of a familiar trope himself (albeit from a TOTALLY different genre: that of bosozoku/delinquent manga & anime) is at least cut from a refreshingly different cloth than most other latter-day Shonen protags: and one that's vastly, vastly more relatable to actual, real life flesh and blood human beings (troubled, loner kid with a bad home life) than the cartoonishly mascot-esque clowns that often act as the centerpiece of many if not most Battle Shonen/Dragon Ball Wannabe series.

For all the bullshit sentimental "right in the feels" moments that many of these series positively live and die on as they fall all over themselves to grope at their audience's heartstrings, there isn't a single damn bit of over the top ridiculous maudlin emotional grandstanding in modern Shonen that in any way matches the simple, low key, understated humanity of moments like Yusuke's wordless, subtle reaction of seeing his mother (who he'd never gotten along with at all prior) break down sobbing in genuine (and non-over the top ala Kuwabara) grief at his funeral after Yusuke initially though that no one in his life would miss him or care that much after he'd died.
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Kunzait's Wuxia Thread
Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by ClutchBangstrip » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:29 am

FortuneSSJ wrote:Objectively speaking, HunterxHunter and One Piece are above everything else.
Subjectively speaking, Dragon Ball is not only my favourite shounen, but also my favourite anime/manga overall so in that way it's the "best" for me.

Something that a lot of people still don't understand and thus why they often wonder how Dragon Ball is more successful than their favourite better written manga/anime is that it's all about entertainment. A better written show is not guaranteed to be more popular, if it fails to be entertaining.

The causal audience is not looking for plot holes, they don't care about asspulls or retcons, how many characters have a sad backstory, etc... they just want to be entertained and holy shit, Dragon Ball sure is entertaining!

The most recent example of this is the Universe Survival arc. A minority of the fanbase was wondering where the plot was, while the majority was wondering who would fight who next, because the fights are obviously one of the most loved things in this franchise and Toriyama/Toei know that. And that's it. As long as Dragon Ball can be entertaining, it will always be around in one way or another.

Another good example is Pokémon. Pokémon doesn't have a deep plot but when I was a kid, no other anime entertained me as much as Pokémon besides Dragon Ball.
Nowadays it's still going, while other better written animes/mangas are buried and there's no interest in bringing them back.
Amen, brother. DB legitimately helped me see things from a casual's perspective n not immediately hate on the experience. If you produce something for the public, entertainment should obviously be the primary focus, unless something else is specifically specified by the powers that be. When I see a crowd of 100k+ in Mexico go nuts at a cartoon on the big screen, I say to myself, "I understand it, now...".

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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by sintzu » Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:31 am

FortuneSSJ wrote:Pokémon doesn't have a deep plot but when I was a kid, no other anime entertained me as much as Pokémon besides Dragon Ball. Nowadays it's still going, while other better written animes/mangas are buried and there's no interest in bringing them back.
This brings up the question of whether or not something should be milked for all its worth based on popularity or end with dignity when the time is right. Let's look at DB, from a business point of view it made total sense to bring it back when they did (some will argue it should've came back sooner) but what about an art point of view ? what has the new content added to the art value of Toriyama's original work ? Apart from the BOG movie, everything has been rehashed material relying on nostalgia to carry it through, a far cry from what the original arcs of the manga were and even the BOG movie. It's been fun don't get me wrong and will probably continue to be but it's like junk food, it tastes good but it's just empty calories with no real food value. The same thing applies to Pokemon, I highly doubt you'll see it on a top list of influential/great anime. It's fun for what it is (which is important) but it doesn't have that high quality factor that other anime do.
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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by Metalwario64 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:09 am

Kunzait_83 wrote: 1) Barefoot Gen
2) Area 88
3) Galaxy Express 999
4) Rokudenashi Blues
5) Ashita no Joe/Tomorrow's Joe
6) Violence Jack (first half)
7) Devilman
8 ) Metropolis
9) Guyver
10) Hokuto no Ken/Fist of the North Star
11) Yu Yu Hakusho
12) Mermaid Saga
13) Venus Wars
14) Silent Mobius
15) Dragon Ball
16) Space Adventure Cobra
17) City Hunter
18) Drifting Classroom
19) Crows
20) JoJo's Bizarre Adventure
I must say I appreciate how high up the list you put Area 88. I'm a huge fan of the OVAs, and it's a title I rarely see brought up these days.

My sister's also largely into Devilman. It's something I've been wanting to check out as well, along with several other titles on your list. I myself am very big into Fist of the North Star and Yu Yu Hakusho, and I like Jojo quite a bit as well (I've only seen up to part 3 so far).

Guyver, and Galaxy Express are others I've wanted to check out as well.
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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by Kunzait_83 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:33 am

Metalwario64 wrote:I must say I appreciate how high up the list you put Area 88. I'm a huge fan of the OVAs, and it's a title I rarely see brought up these days.
Both the 1979 Galaxy Express 999 movie and the original Area 88 OVAs are seriously some of the most incredible examples of effective and emotionally resonant storytelling that anything, anime or manga, within the confines of Shonen has ever accomplished. Both are absolute musts for not just any fan of anime and Japanese media, but anyone who genuinely appreciates quality film and narrative storytelling in general.

Area 88 tackles the ugly psychological realities of war with an unbelievable level of sobering humanity, subtlety, and maturity, going to places emotionally that basically ANY Shonen of the last 20 years would never, n-e-v-e-r even FATHOM of coming within a million miles of. The ending especially is absolutely breathtakingly impactful and one of the most gut-wrenching emotional roller coasters in any anime I can think of that isn't something like Grave of the Fireflies or Barefoot Gen.

Its the complete and total abject loss of stories like THIS from the entire realm of Shonen the past couple of decades that is precisely why it is that I mourn and disrespect the long-term effect and lasting impact that Dragon Ball's success has had on Shonen since the late 90s.
Metalwario64 wrote:My sister's also largely into Devilman. It's something I've been wanting to check out as well, along with several other titles on your list.
Right now's as good a time as any to be a Devilman fan. Crybaby is both amazingly, lovingly well done in and of itself (as I'd expect no less from anything coming from Yuasa) and its sparked an amazing resurgence in Western/U.S. awareness of the franchise that it hasn't seen since the earlier half of the 90s, which is giving us everything from the first ever proper full English translated release of Nagai's original manga (which is shamefully, inexcusably decades and decades overdue) to a gorgeously remastered rerelease of the original 80s and 90s OVAs (which animation-wise are a work of art unto themselves, and easily puts to shame the old 1970s TV series) courtesy of Discotek. Here's hoping we finally get a proper U.S. release for the Amon OVA next.

Anyone that's somehow still never delved into Nagai's gothic horror/superhero classic now officially has even less of an excuse to ignore or bypass it than ever before, and should dive right on into it ASAP.
Metalwario64 wrote:I myself am very big into Fist of the North Star and Yu Yu Hakusho, and I like Jojo quite a bit as well (I've only seen up to part 3 so far).
There's still quite a bit more solid JoJo material to come after Stardust Crusaders, but its definitely kinda diminishing returns after awhile (its been literally forever though since I last followed it and I'm admittedly very, very much behind). Crusaders is definitely the peak of the series and its most iconic arc for damn good reason. Definitely check the rest out and judge for yourself though.
Metalwario64 wrote:Guyver, and Galaxy Express are others I've wanted to check out as well.
Get. On. Galaxy Express. Like NOW. That goes for anyone and everyone else reading this thread. Not seeing Galaxy Express is the anime equivalent of never having seen The Wizard of Oz before as far as I'm concerned.

Image

The whole original series is outstanding and a timeless classic, but its the 1979 GE999 film that's the real crown jewel masterwork of the whole franchise. Its easily among the greatest anime films of all time, certainly without question the greatest non-Ghibli anime children's film of all time bar none. It takes a very, VERY special kind of kids' movie to be capable of getting a sick, twisted old fuck like ME misty eyed and emotional by the end (I'm notoriously bulletproof to every single solitary Pixar film ever made: I absolutely can't stand literally any of them and am moved more towards the nearest vomit bag by them than I am the nearest box of tissues), and Galaxy Express certainly and without question meets that unicorn-rare criteria for me.

Its also an absolute must for any Dragon Ball fan since Tetsuro is also Nozawa's OTHER iconic, culturally significant, career-defining role apart from Goku. Seriously, if you love anime, Masako Nozawa, and timelessly excellent children's animated films in general, there's literally NO acceptable excuse for not having watched the '79 Galaxy Express movie yet.

Guyver meanwhile is just a stellar, outright iconic action/henshin superhero series. I'd personally take it over any of the Kamen Rider and Ultraman series easily: I'm just a sucker not only for its rampant body-horror motifs (the whole concept behind the Bio Booster Armor and how it works/interacts with the human nervous system is just wonderfully grotesque and disturbed), but also its bugfuck paranoid conspiracy streak of hyper-cynical anti-authoritarianism. If you're into the whole henshin hero thing and don't mind seeing it getting taken to some relentlessly nasty and mean-spirited places, then Guyver's an absolute no-brainer of a series to get on.
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Kunzait's Wuxia Thread
Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by Michsi » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:49 am

Pretty high-up there in terms of entertainment. What's funny with this franchise is that though I can very easily acknowledged that there are plenty of stories out there with better plot, deeper characters, greater art etc,very few of those actually managed go get me to care about them more or even anywhere near as much as DB. I appreciate them for their merits and applaud the artistry, but at the end of the day, I'm still more likely to go re-read the Saiyan Saga for the 20th or watch my favorite episode from DB, than revisit most of those better crafted shows.

And just in case anyone thinks this is due to nostalgia, most shows I used to enjoy as a kid aren't doing anything for me as an adult.

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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by jjgp1112 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:52 am

:lol: Well shit, DB, One Piece, and Yu Yu Hakusho are the only anime in general that I've watched substantially, so I'd go:

1) Yu Yu Hakusho
2) One Piece
3) DB
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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by Oniman » Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:36 pm

Nope, but the mighty and legendary Devilman is!!

Image

I LOVE Devilman since 1995 when I rented the OVAs on VHS from Manga Entertainment at a local video shop. I rented that and Faces of Death IV during that same night. Dragon Ball is cool, but I don't think it reaches the same level as Devilman for me. I'm metal as fuck, but I do enjoy my good share of friendly anime. I do enjoy Kimagure Orange Road, Digimon, Maison Ikkoku, Captain Tsubasa and Kenyuu Densetsu Yaiba.
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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by Kid Buu » Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:50 pm

jjgp1112 wrote::lol: Well shit, DB, One Piece, and Yu Yu Hakusho are the only anime in general that I've watched substantially, so I'd go:

1) Yu Yu Hakusho
2) One Piece
3) DB
But where would The Boondocks rank on this list? :lol:
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by Doctor. » Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:08 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:Not to mention most of YYH's characters are genuinely down to earth, likable, and relatable, as opposed to most of the irritatingly obnoxious, punchable little shit stains that populate most other post-DB Battle Shonen shit: even HxH's Gon is little more than yet another in an endlessly, tiresomely long line of annoying Goku knockoffs ala Luffy, Naruto, etc. And no amount of tepidly dull and milquetoast "genre deconstruction" in the series justifies the hollow, repetitive tiredness of Gon's whole "simple, upbeat, cheerful, naive country bumpkin looking for adventure" shtick that's been done to death endlessly since DB ended (while totally and utterly missing the entire point of why it worked in DB to begin with).
I thought you were selling HxH short, but I can see where you're coming from. It always felt to me like it plays into the so-called "genre's" modern conventions and tropes far too often without innovating nearly as much as the fans like to think it does. It annoys me when the word "deconstruction" is thrown around so loosely, because HxH does not fit that definition in the slightest (primarily because it's first-and-foremost a method of literary criticism, but even the definition of "an extraordinary work that toys with the conventions of the genre" the community uses doesn't apply to the series). Even Gon's "revolutionary" characterization during the Chimera Ant arc is nothing more than a slightly more aggressive portrayal of Namek's Super Saiyan Goku; they go through the same arc. He's the worst part of the series, to me at least. Even so, as much as the series is edgy and over-the-top at times, I really think Togashi is at his best when it comes to action; his paneling and composition is superb, especially in the earlier arcs.

I have to reread YYH, it has been years since the last time I read it. I remember there's a chapter during the first arc where a tanuki comforts an old man that has always stuck with me. It's simple but genuine.

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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by Oniman » Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:33 am

Put me in the "I don't like Hunter x Hunter" boat as well. I try to watch fan subs of it on bootleg tapes back in 2000 and I didn't care for it.
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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by jjgp1112 » Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:53 am

Doctor. wrote:

I have to reread YYH, it has been years since the last time I read it. I remember there's a chapter during the first arc where a tanuki comforts an old man that has always stuck with me. It's simple but genuine.
YYH is actually something I'd recommend getting into through the anime. It never suffered through he excessive filler of most weekly shonen anime and once you get to around the Dark Tournament the animation is by and large spectacular on a regular basis. Not to mention the final arc is actually handled better, as in the manga that's where Togashis health issues started piling up
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by ricky84 » Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:05 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Kunzait_83 wrote:snip
Seems like you like Yu Yu Hakusho quite a bit. Are you not interested in Hunter x Hunter? Level E is also pretty good.

I was gonna say Parasyte seems like your kind of manga, but then I figured it probably isn't really within the Shounen demographic.
Yeah, Parasyte is a very, very cherished and beloved personal favorite of mine, going back to the manga in the mid-90s; my eyes practically bugged out of my skull with shock and joy when the much newer anime was first announced: though I'm definitely not a fan of a few of its design choices for some characters, namely Shin at the beginning, its overall a very solid adaptation and I couldn't be happier that its now a series that younger fans actually at least KNOW exists rather than responding to the title with blank puzzlement. But its in no way, shape or form Shonen in the slightest, so its not at all relevant to this thread.

Hunter X Hunter left a very bad taste in my mouth going back ages ago, and very little of what its done since then has really done much to remedy that. To me its always just been boilerplate, generic turn-of-the-millennium Shonen, with its various stabs at "deconstructing" that whole formula in its later arcs coming across as not terribly interesting or compelling or nearly as "deep" as people like to make it out as. It touches on some decently cool martial arts fantasy/wuxia stuff here or there in certain arcs, but its nothing that YYH hasn't already done VASTLY better.

Level E is a title I really, really need to revisit: I only checked it out once forever and ever ago, and only fuzzily remember it now. All I clearly remember is a few interesting visuals.

Yu Yu Hakusho is easily a better series overall than even DB in my eyes (which obviously I think fairly highly of to begin with), and its basically neck and neck with Fist of the North Star for my all time personal favorite Wuxia anime/manga series; Fist only juuuuust about edges it out, mainly due to Hara's jaw droppingly incredible art and how much I adore the series' world, its themes, and its ridiculously brutal martial arts fighting styles/techniques. YYH though utterly trounces and downright embarrasses pretty much ALL of the various later post-DB "Battle Shonen" series, including its creator's own HxH, and its not even remotely close at all.

It has some of the all time best character dynamics, ingeniously thought out and executed martial arts/wuxia fights and setpieces, spectacular visuals, art, and general design sensibilities, and by far the most interesting and richest subtext of pretty much ANY of these series bar none and without question (that's actually, genuinely there as subtext and not clumsily, amateurishly clunky emo teen-esque monologuing/soliloquising from the various characters that spells everything out in crayon... *cough*Naruto&OnePiece*cough*). It isn't even a contest: YYH is lightyears beyond most of its later competition, HxH included, and would be my immediate go-to were I to recommend only one "Battle Shonen" series to anyone who otherwise is put off by anime/manga.

Not to mention most of YYH's characters are genuinely down to earth, likable, and relatable, as opposed to most of the irritatingly obnoxious, punchable little shit stains that populate most other post-DB Battle Shonen shit: even HxH's Gon is little more than yet another in an endlessly, tiresomely long line of annoying Goku knockoffs ala Luffy, Naruto, etc. And no amount of tepidly dull and milquetoast "genre deconstruction" in the series justifies the hollow, repetitive tiredness of Gon's whole "simple, upbeat, cheerful, naive country bumpkin looking for adventure" shtick that's been done to death endlessly since DB ended (while totally and utterly missing the entire point of why it worked in DB to begin with).

Yusuke, while something of a familiar trope himself (albeit from a TOTALLY different genre: that of bosozoku/delinquent manga & anime) is at least cut from a refreshingly different cloth than most other latter-day Shonen protags: and one that's vastly, vastly more relatable to actual, real life flesh and blood human beings (troubled, loner kid with a bad home life) than the cartoonishly mascot-esque clowns that often act as the centerpiece of many if not most Battle Shonen/Dragon Ball Wannabe series.

For all the bullshit sentimental "right in the feels" moments that many of these series positively live and die on as they fall all over themselves to grope at their audience's heartstrings, there isn't a single damn bit of over the top ridiculous maudlin emotional grandstanding in modern Shonen that in any way matches the simple, low key, understated humanity of moments like Yusuke's wordless, subtle reaction of seeing his mother (who he'd never gotten along with at all prior) break down sobbing in genuine (and non-over the top ala Kuwabara) grief at his funeral after Yusuke initially though that no one in his life would miss him or care that much after he'd died.
Interesting opinions, particularity about HxH (I don't necessary agree with you there, but whatever). Tell me, what do you think of Saint Seiya, One Piece and JoJo's Bizarre Adventure?
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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by ricky84 » Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:13 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Kunzait_83 wrote:Not to mention most of YYH's characters are genuinely down to earth, likable, and relatable, as opposed to most of the irritatingly obnoxious, punchable little shit stains that populate most other post-DB Battle Shonen shit: even HxH's Gon is little more than yet another in an endlessly, tiresomely long line of annoying Goku knockoffs ala Luffy, Naruto, etc. And no amount of tepidly dull and milquetoast "genre deconstruction" in the series justifies the hollow, repetitive tiredness of Gon's whole "simple, upbeat, cheerful, naive country bumpkin looking for adventure" shtick that's been done to death endlessly since DB ended (while totally and utterly missing the entire point of why it worked in DB to begin with).
I thought you were selling HxH short, but I can see where you're coming from. It always felt to me like it plays into the so-called "genre's" modern conventions and tropes far too often without innovating nearly as much as the fans like to think it does. It annoys me when the word "deconstruction" is thrown around so loosely, because HxH does not fit that definition in the slightest (primarily because it's first-and-foremost a method of literary criticism, but even the definition of "an extraordinary work that toys with the conventions of the genre" the community uses doesn't apply to the series). Even Gon's "revolutionary" characterization during the Chimera Ant arc is nothing more than a slightly more aggressive portrayal of Namek's Super Saiyan Goku; they go through the same arc. He's the worst part of the series, to me at least. Even so, as much as the series is edgy and over-the-top at times, I really think Togashi is at his best when it comes to action; his paneling and composition is superb, especially in the earlier arcs.

I have to reread YYH, it has been years since the last time I read it. I remember there's a chapter during the first arc where a tanuki comforts an old man that has always stuck with me. It's simple but genuine.
To be honest, most works of fiction that try to be deconstructions of genres tend to come across as pretentious and pseudo-intellectual (though it can, and has, been argued that deconstructionism as an idea itself is pretentious and pseudo-intellectual). The only times deconstructionism actually works is when the genre its using serves a back drop for something else. What made Evangelion great for example wasn't what it had to say about Mecha anime (it didn't really do anything groundbreaking there tbh) but how its used for the shows real focus: the psychological drama of its characters.
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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by ABED » Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:34 pm

Maybe it just goes over my head, but I never seen a solid definition of what exactly a deconstruction is. I know certain examples but I don't have a firm understanding of the concept, especially since it's a word that gets thrown around a lot.
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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by Kid Buu » Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:24 pm

ABED wrote:Maybe it just goes over my head, but I never seen a solid definition of what exactly a deconstruction is. I know certain examples but I don't have a firm understanding of the concept, especially since it's a word that gets thrown around a lot.
I too am very confused by this....
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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by Zephyr » Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:38 pm

I don't really go out of my way to watch things that are "Shonen", especially ones that are labelled as such under the pretense that it's a genre (which basically just amount to the umpteenth flavor of the month imitator of Dragon Ball and Yu Yu Hakusho). So I don't really conceive of something as "my favorite Shonen" or "the best Shonen". That said, there's a fair number of anime/manga I love, which are Shonen. Among those that I've both completed, and really enjoyed, I'd probably rank them as such:

1. Dragon Ball
This one is, frankly, never going to lose its spot. It's the first anime that I got hooked on. My best friend and his brothers were hooked on it when we were growing up. It was the first anime series that made me interested in checking out the Japanese version, and now I watch anime in Japanese on principle. It was one of the first creative works that I "jumped down the rabbit hole" for, so to speak, and I still haven't reached the bottom. Every time I re-read or re-watch it, or learn something about its production or its creator, the work feels more robust. I've gone from viewing it as a "universe" to piece together and "explore" via wikis, video games, and other trivia, to something I appreciate as a work of art, for all of the different creative juices and distinctive quirks that synthesized to create it. I now view other anime, manga, films, and such this way as well, and Dragon Ball was probably my gateway for doing that.

2. Mobile Fighter G Gundam
This one might not stay number 2 forever, but I don't see it leaving the top 5. It's an over the top wuxia martial arts series like Dragon Ball, but it's somehow more absurd. The martial artists fight one another in giant robots; they enter these giant robots in faux magical girl transformation sequences; each Gundam is based on one country's stereotype or another; there's a fucking horse Gundam. The last time I watched through it, it somehow managed to get increasingly absurd with each episode, and its finale was no exception. I don't think the story has any real emotional substance to it like I'd argue Dragon Ball subtly does, but goddamn does this have style.

3. Yu Yu Hakusho
Just finished the anime up for this, and I'm starting on the manga. Loved this the whole way through. Another wuxia series, more in the vein of Dragon Ball than G Gundam was, and there were a lot of parts that I feel paralleled Dragon Ball. The Dark Tournament, in the real world, was contemporary with the Cell Games, and their climaxes were eerily similar (I have to wonder if Toriyama and Togashi were sharing notes). Sensui, a character introduced during the story's back half, felt familiar to me, and that's because I'd watched Dragon Ball Super; Zamasu and Goku Black feel like diet dollar store off brand Sensui. Also, while watching through this, I became aware of something that I wasn't prior: I just really dig settings that heavily feature demons. Berserk, Doom, Inuyasha, etc. The atmosphere and mood of everything is significantly influenced by the presence of demonic forces, and this no doubt heavily factored into my enjoyment of this one. Dragon Ball has it's own demons, for sure, but they don't help set the tone quite as much as they do in these other works.

4. Azumanga Daioh
Did not expect to love this as much as I do. Part of the reason it's special to me, I'm sure, is because it reminds me of when my girlfriend and I first started dating (it was around this time that we went to an anime convention, and saw a lot of footage from this in AMV Hell, and that was my introduction to this). Besides that, it's genuinely funny, and at the end of it I had this deep sense of melancholy that I still can't fully explain.

5. Mobile Suit Gundam 79
Hadn't seen this until recently. Was nice to see one of the earliest "mecha anime" in action, and the story went to a really interesting place near the end. Looking forward to starting Zeta.

6. Ronin Warriors
Between Voltron, Sailor Moon, and this, I'm not sure which one was actually my first anime. Regardless, I really liked this one. I couldn't really give a worthwhile explanation for why, because I'm due for a rewatch. I do know that I liked the designs of the armor, and the different abilities that each character had.

Then there are works that I've yet to finish, possibly only even sampled, but am heavily interested in continuing/finishing at some point. These ones are in no particular order:

- Vinland Saga (starts off Shonen)
- Jojo's Bizarre Adventure (starts of Shonen)
- Fist of the North Star
- Inuyasha
- Rurouni Kenshin
- Trigun (starts off Shonen)
- Android Kikaider
- The Disastrous Life of Saiki K.
- The Devil Is a Part-Timer!
- Tenchi Muyo!
- Bakemonogatari

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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by Doctor. » Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:48 pm

ABED wrote:Maybe it just goes over my head, but I never seen a solid definition of what exactly a deconstruction is. I know certain examples but I don't have a firm understanding of the concept, especially since it's a word that gets thrown around a lot.
That's because no critic that I've read really uses "deconstruction" as a way to classify a piece of work. That's a phenomenon I've seen exclusively in the anime community. I could be wrong and it is actually used by critics, post-modern criticism isn't my strong suit. Deconstruction is a method of literary analysis that consists in deciphering different meanings of words and sentences outside of the one intended. It has a philosophical application as well but that's above me.

What people in the anime community refer to as deconstruction is pretty much a "good, innovative show that toys or shows the flaws in the conventions and tropes of the genre" which is a very loose definition considering it applies to just about every parody show, for instance.

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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by Zephyr » Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:08 pm

Maybe Togashi himself is to blame? In the final volume of Yu Yu Hakusho, it seems he says this:
It saddens me to say this, but I had explored every possible direction for the YYH characters that I could in the context of a professional publication. All I could do at this point was to start deconstructing the characters, or go on repeating the same storylines over and over until the readers got bored. My attempts to deconstruct the characters were, of course, turned down by Jump. I didn't have the strength, physically and mentally, to keep doing the same thing over and over.

So I went ahead and did what I had always wanted to do: "If I ever manage to have a long serialization in Jump, I will end it on my own terms." I knew that Jump dropped a manga after 10 weeks if the readers' surveys proved it to be unpopular, and I knew this when I started working for them. This system proved encouraging for me, and I learned a lot by being aware of readers reactions. But I ended up wanting to draw manga for myself, without thinking about anyone's reactions. I don't believe that anything I came up with on this premise will live up to Jump's standards, so I will not try.
The semantic value of "deconstruction" aside, though, it seems as if he was doing what he wanted to do with Yu Yu Hakusho, vicariously through Hunter X Hunter. Which really sucks, I'd had loved to see Yu Yu Hakusho continue, especially if it was just about to break its own routine and subvert its own habits (similar to what Toriyama did with Dragon Ball during the Buu arc). If what you guys are saying about Gon is any indication (ie: him being an annoying and insufferable shit of a protagonist), then Hunter X Hunter doing these things seems like a paltry compensation for Yu Yu Hakusho never getting to.

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Re: Where would you rank DB among "Shounen" Anime

Post by ABED » Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:14 pm

I'd had loved to see Yu Yu Hakusho continue, especially if it was just about to break its own routine and subvert its own habits
Which habits?

One of the reasons I like YYH so much is because it was long enough to create a world and live in it and get a lot out of it all the while incrementally growing its characters and changing things up, but left before it began doing the same things over and over again. A big problem I have with DB is that it's too long and it falls into a few big ruts. One big one is taking Goku out of action early in the arc.
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