Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
PFM18
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 3701
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by PFM18 » Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:19 pm

VegettoEX wrote:Please do not make up collective boogeymen to argue against. Who is this specific person citing a very specific example of some very specific writing technique in one particular media as a dislike and simultaneously citing the same, exactly, specific aspect in a different media as a positive? Have they explained themselves? Have you taken the time to hear them out? Like, honestly and truly taken the time and given thought to it? Was their explanation reasonable and thoughtful and in line with our community guidelines? And if not, are they even therefore a member anymore?
\

They don't necessarily cite it as something they dislike and then call it a positive in another, they just dislike one form of media for something that is also at least as prevalent in the other form of media. I'm not going to get into too much detail but just to give a few quick examples:

"Super has too many tournaments! They don't even have actual stories!"

When the original story has 3 tournament arcs that make up half of the arcs in the first show "Dragon Ball." In both ways quantified, Dragon Ball Super utilizes tournaments less than Dragon Ball and yet it is never criticized for it and Super is.

"Super has too many transformations!"

When Goku and Vegeta's main/top transformation is literally the same now in the movie following the DBS series, as it was before the DBS series was even announced. The main cast go several arcs without even achieving a new transformation that they use constantly. Then in DBZ, new transformations are literally a core part of every major arc. Yet, again, unsurprisingly, Super is criticized for it and Z isn't.

"The power-scaling is so bad! It is so inconsistent!"


The power scaling has never been 100% consistent. If it was, Piccolo would have pounded Perfect Cell's face in, Vegeta would have welcomed Goku to the battlefield rather than being on the brink of death, Tenshinhan wouldn't have been able to distract Cell for a millisecond, and Goku would have no chance in hell during EoZ fighting somebody in his Base who apparently has the same latent power as Majin Buu.(just to name a few) The power scaling inconsistencies are objectively not much more prevalent, if more prevalent at all, and yet the very first thing that people mention is the power scaling problems that Super supposedly has.

The double standard is as clear as day. This isn't about a "collective boogeyman", this is about acknowledging a very prevalent bias that exists within this fandom.

kemuri07
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 420
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:09 am

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by kemuri07 » Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:25 pm

Because DBZ is better executed. It's really that simple.

DBZ is a better show therefore it gets away with a lot. DBS is a shit show, therefore a lot of it is pretty shitty.


Pretending that DBZ and DBS are on the same level is ridiculous. I can absolutely agree that DBZ has significant flaws, especially as it went along. And I can still claim that it's a better show than DBS will ever be. There's a reason why DBZ will continue to be remember for years on end, and DBS will just be that show you might watch a clip on youtube every now and then.
Last edited by kemuri07 on Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
VegettoEX
Kanzenshuu Co-Owner & Administrator
Posts: 16326
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:10 pm
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by VegettoEX » Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:25 pm

I ask again: who is the "they" here?
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::

kemuri07
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 420
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:09 am

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by kemuri07 » Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:27 pm

VegettoEX wrote:I ask again: who is the "they" here?
Communists. Obviously.

User avatar
PFM18
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 3701
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by PFM18 » Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:35 pm

VegettoEX wrote:I ask again: who is the "they" here?
Do you expect me to cite certain users and have a compiled list of people that do this? What exactly are you asking of me?

These are common criticisms as to why Super is so bad compared to the original series and yet they are at least as applicable to the original series. These are just tendencies that I see, I'm not interested in giving specific names.
kemuri07 wrote:Because DBZ is better executed. It's really that simple.
That is an entirely different issue altogether and wasn't what was being addressed.
Pretending that DBZ and DBS are on the same level is ridiculous. I can absolutely agree that DBZ has significant flaws, especially as it went along. And I can still claim that it's a better show than DBS will ever be. There's a reason why DBZ will continue to be remember for years on end, and DBS will just be that show you might watch a clip on youtube every now and then.
Interesting that you already know what the legacy of each show is when Super just ended 6 months ago and the story is being continued in this movie and possibly going to return after that. I find myself rewatching Super more than I do Z. I don't see how you could possibly know that DBZ will be remembered for years any more so than DBS will be.

User avatar
Gaffer Tape
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5830
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:25 pm
Contact:

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:39 pm

PFM18 wrote:
kemuri07 wrote:Because DBZ is better executed. It's really that simple.
That is an entirely different issue altogether and wasn't what was being addressed.
It seems to me it's exactly what's being addressed. You asked why earlier DB gets a pass for the same concepts Super doesn't, and that is a very valid answer. Ideas by themselves do not a story make. I thought Super had some amazing ideas going in. I couldn't wait to see how this crazy, universe-destroying, team battle royale thing was going to play itself out. Fast forward six months, and you'd see me dreading Sunday mornings because I was just so bored every single week. Execution is very, very important.

Look, it's impossible for me to disprove your theory that some Super hate is motivated by nostalgia. I'd probably be inclined to agree with you. But you don't think it's possible, or even likely, that a lot of people have given Super a fair chance, watched every episode, admitted when they've liked certain parts, but still, overall, just don't think it's very good?

Just for fun, I can try to address some of the double standards you've brought up. Keep in mind, I speak for myself alone, not for the greater Dragon Ball community.

Tournaments: I feel like I'm very much in the minority here, but I thought tournaments were getting kind of tired by the 23rd. Don't get me wrong. I still find that arc very enjoyable, and the sense of maturity and camaraderie between the characters is as good it gets in the franchise. But I felt they were pushing it by then. Three tournaments? That's about the limit. And I also feel that that tournament format was already pushing the boundaries of what felt plausible for characters at the level of superhuman strength and agility they had reached by that point. By the end of the final fight, it seems quite ridiculous to me, what with Piccolo becoming a giant and the entire area being blown up, that no one managed to step outside of the ring at any point. How can a tiny ring contain everyone when they can fly? How can it contain them when they can easily blow up everything in a five-mile radius? So I have tons of criticisms about that arc, and it's from the original series.

However, I find both of the tournament arcs in Super worse by an order of magnitude, especially the latter, which has gone down as one of my least favorite Dragon Ball things ever. I can barely remember the former, so clearly it didn't leave that much of an impression on me, and I feel I can't speak to it now because of that. But as for the Tournament of Power, it contained the most boring main antagonist I've ever, ever seen. The format and sheer scope of it made it extremely difficult to keep track of anything. The great thing about one-on-one tournament matches is that you feel a clear sense of progression. You know how close you are to the end. You feel the stakes rise as you get closer to that point. The ToP doesn't feel like it has a natural progression. I suppose if you keep your own flowchart handy, you might be able to keep up with how many characters are left, but what's the fun in that? In most episodes, conflicts weren't even resolved. A fight would happen, and, by the end, the opponent would twirl his or her mustache and run off, and then I'd forget who they are. It's just bloated. And since I wasn't keeping a flowchart of which character was which, which universe they were from, what they could do, and who they were (not that most of them could be more than flat characters since they were sharing the spotlight with dozens and dozens of other characters), the whole just seemed like a convoluted mess to me. And don't even get me started on the damn time limit. Ultimately making each episode a single minute further emphasized just how little was being accomplished. And, yes, the Freeza Arc did it too. And I think the pacing (especially in the DBZ adaptation) is horrendous as well. But it still didn't eat up as much of my time as this did.

And that's really the main point. I'm going to go ahead and dispense with the other two points because I largely don't care about power scaling, and because this point will tie in with the transformation point. Here we go: Dragon Ball Super is not, by and large, removed from the problems of later Dragon Ball. It's not. For the most part it is a logical extension of everything that preceded it. And that, to me, is a problem. Because, yeah, I complain about the over-reliance of transformations and hype moments in the Freeza, Cell, and Boo arcs as well. That's where I feel Dragon Ball started to dip in quality, and, overall, it got worse and worse as the series progressed. And that's the nature of the formula Toriyama trapped himself into. Each successive conflict had to be bigger and more bombastic than the last, and, eventually, there's only so far you can go. That's why I'm glad he stopped after The Boo Arc. It was already getting tired by then, and the tropes were getting extremely worn out. Thankfully, that arc was saved by parodying elements of it in some places and scaling back in others to small, legitimately human moments like Boo and his puppy. That salvaged it just enough to be a serviceable finale.

Super, of course, has to be even bigger. The stakes have to be even more astronomically huge at a point where the stakes were already too high to really be emotionally investing. So all the same tired tropes are on display but even more pronounced then before. And then, amidst that, Super strips out most of the humanity and inventiveness the original run had that made those memorable. Most importantly, though, it stripped out any sense of growth and progression. That's always what made Dragon Ball feel more sprawling, epic, and deeper than it had any legitimate claim to be. Characters aged. They grew. They changed. I could dip my toe into two different parts of the series, and they'd be totally different. The tone would be different. The characters would be different. The ages would be different. The locations would be different. The original run of Dragon Ball could always, ALWAYS be counted on to reinvent itself. And that kept it fresh for an entire decade. Even when the quality would slip, it still felt like you were growing with these characters. Do you have any idea what it felt like, if you'd only seen the Saiyan and Freeza Arcs on Toonami, to come across a fansub of the Boo Arc? And to pop it in and see Gohan in high school? And he's a superhero? Or to see that one-off girl from the first arc come back YEARS later to marry Goku, who's now all grown up?

Super is far too mired in the mindset of keeping Dragon Ball as recognizably Dragon Ball as possible. And that takes away a huge chunk of what makes Dragon Ball appealing. It is stuck in this ageless, changeless interquel status. Sure, it's still serialized, but nothing overall really ever changes in that entire series. More often than not, Beerus and Whis show up to either introduce or clarify a problem. Goku and Vegeta punch at it a lot. And then they all have a party at Capsule Corporation. It's no coincidence that the best episodes of Super are the one-off comedy episodes. They're not trying to force bigger and better hype. And the episodic format is a better fit for these time-warped characters. Unlike the original run, I could dip my toes into two parts of Super, and, yeah, they'll both be instantly recognizable. And for me, that's a problem. Without that sense of growth and change, Dragon Ball is reduced to its most basic elements. It's no longer a multi-generational epic. It's just fighting with the occasional gag. And the fighting in and of itself, while I enjoy it if it's well-executed, is what I find least interesting about Dragon Ball.

Obviously, you are free to disagree, and you most certainly do, I'm sure. But I'm someone who is highly critical of Dragon Ball, even parts that I like, even parts that I love. I most certainly lob a lot of the same criticisms you mentioned at the original run. But even so, I find Super to be much, much worse on all those fronts.
Do you follow the most comprehensive and entertaining Dragon Ball analysis series on YouTube? If you do, you're smart and awesome and fairly attractive. If not, see what all the fuss is about without even having to leave Kanzenshuu:

MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection Series Discussion Thread! (Updated 8/5/19!)
Current Episode: Broli, the Legendary Marketing Ploy - DBD: Burn Up!! Hot Fight, Fierce Fight, Super Violent Fight

kemuri07
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 420
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:09 am

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by kemuri07 » Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:32 pm

That is an entirely different issue altogether and wasn't what was being addressed.
No not really. Gaffer already checked you so I'll try to keep it simple: DBZ is a nearly 30 year old anime that helped begin many of the shonen tropes that we see today. Your argument is that you don't understand why DBZ isn't criticized the same way that DBS routinely is. My point is that DBS premiered in 2015, 26 years after the first DBZ episode premiered, and not only did that timeframe contain the entire run of DBZ, but a boatload of shonen anime, many of which were clearly influenced by DBZ's original run.

My point is that this shit doesn't exist entirely in a box, and just because DBZ did it, doesnt' suddenly make it okay for DBS to do it. Especially since DBS has no where near the talent that Akira Toriyama and co' had when DBZ first released.
Super is far too mired in the mindset of keeping Dragon Ball as recognizably Dragon Ball as possible. And that takes away a huge chunk of what makes Dragon Ball appealing. It is stuck in this ageless, changeless interquel status.
Exactly. I never believed Super should have ever happened for this reason exact. And it's the exact problem Toei faced with GT all those years ago: How the hell do you make a sequel to DBZ? Sure, you can just have Goku and Vegeta punch something else; but it'd be the exact thing that they've been doing for years. And sure enough, that's Super feels: more of the same. So I'm less impressed by what I see in that anime, especially since everything about it is much, much worse than DBZ.
I don't see how you could possibly know that DBZ will be remembered for years any more so than DBS will be.
Dude, you serious?

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10529
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Doctor. » Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:32 am

PFM18 wrote:[
This kind of gross oversimplification is a perfect example. "The Cell and Zamasu arcs are basically the same because Trunks came back from the future to start the arc!" The Cell and Zamasu arcs are absolutely nothing alike outside of that.
Good thing I said the Goku Black arc borrows its premise from the Cell arc, not that they were identical, then.

User avatar
Nokra
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 224
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:39 pm
Location: Transcendent Realm

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Nokra » Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:06 pm

People don't like change especially in this fandom so when things were being changed or retconned fans immediately started hating on dbs. I don't care that much as long as its entertaining but some people expect a super complex story in dragonball probably because of other anime influemces. But don't seem to understand this series will always be inconsistent and have retcons the longer it is on. If people really don't like the new dragonball then they can either stop watching and find something else or stop complaining.

User avatar
Kunzait_83
I Live Here
Posts: 2633
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 5:19 pm

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:03 pm

Nokra wrote:People don't like change especially in this fandom so when things were being changed or retconned fans immediately started hating on dbs.
......

Dude...
Gaffer Tape wrote:Most importantly, though, it stripped out any sense of growth and progression. That's always what made Dragon Ball feel more sprawling, epic, and deeper than it had any legitimate claim to be. Characters aged. They grew. They changed. I could dip my toe into two different parts of the series, and they'd be totally different. The tone would be different. The characters would be different. The ages would be different. The locations would be different. The original run of Dragon Ball could always, ALWAYS be counted on to reinvent itself. And that kept it fresh for an entire decade. Even when the quality would slip, it still felt like you were growing with these characters. Do you have any idea what it felt like, if you'd only seen the Saiyan and Freeza Arcs on Toonami, to come across a fansub of the Boo Arc? And to pop it in and see Gohan in high school? And he's a superhero? Or to see that one-off girl from the first arc come back YEARS later to marry Goku, who's now all grown up?

Super is far too mired in the mindset of keeping Dragon Ball as recognizably Dragon Ball as possible. And that takes away a huge chunk of what makes Dragon Ball appealing. It is stuck in this ageless, changeless interquel status. Sure, it's still serialized, but nothing overall really ever changes in that entire series. More often than not, Beerus and Whis show up to either introduce or clarify a problem. Goku and Vegeta punch at it a lot. And then they all have a party at Capsule Corporation. It's no coincidence that the best episodes of Super are the one-off comedy episodes. They're not trying to force bigger and better hype. And the episodic format is a better fit for these time-warped characters. Unlike the original run, I could dip my toes into two parts of Super, and, yeah, they'll both be instantly recognizable. And for me, that's a problem. Without that sense of growth and change, Dragon Ball is reduced to its most basic elements. It's no longer a multi-generational epic. It's just fighting with the occasional gag.

Nice to see that we're all reading one another's posts and are critically engaged in a back and forth discussion and not just talking past one another trying to have our opinions override everyone else's by sheer force of will. :roll: :roll: :roll:

For my part though, while I certainly DON'T agree with a decent chunk of Gaffer's criticisms and analysis (of both the original series AND Super: I actually DO find the fighting in and of itself, when its executed well mind you, to be interesting and I think that the "slice of life" portions of Super are easily and by lightyears some of its worst and most unwatchable parts), the part I highlighted up top here is SPOT ON THE MONEY regarding Super's biggest, most egregious failings that make it demonstrably lesser than the original series.

Dragon Ball to me is DEFINED by its CONSTANT series-wide reinventing of itself and its seemingly bottomless yearning to shake up its status quo at every turn and never keep things the same or frozen in a particular stasis for too long. Apart from its core premise of being a Wuxia epic spanning generations of martial arts masters with varying degrees of Dr. Slump-like DNA mixed into it, Dragon Ball has otherwise always been loathe to keep itself contained into too much of a narrowly defined box: despite belonging to a fairly definitive genre of fantasy fiction, Dragon Ball could ALSO at the same time and within the same exact breath be anything from a space opera, to a B monster movie with a mutant insect-man, to a time travel story about mad scientists and killer robots from the future, to a Tokusatsu/Sentai/Henshin Hero parody to a Bangsian fantasy with Lovecraftian cosmic abominations: it could do a big, splashy action epic one moment, and then at least semi-grounded, intimate character pieces the next, and then back again without missing a beat.

And most impressively of all, it could do all of these disparate things while ALWAYS maintaining that signature snarky, irreverent, tongue-firmly-in-cheek Toriyama wink and nod at the audience... while simultaneously STILL being genuinely dramatically earnest and emotionally committed to its characters and the world they inhabit. That kind of "having one's cake and eating it too" tightrope balance is exceedingly exceedingly fucking difficult to maintain for ANY length of time for pretty much ANY other writer/artist out there; and Toriyama managed it with seeming effortlessness for 11 years and 42 volumes worth of manga. The series is still FAR from flawless by any metric: but nonetheless that kind of creative feat is still grounds for some kind of a Hat Trick award.

The series would ALWAYS keep you guessing from one arc to the next on where it was going to go and what kinds of off the wall shenanigans Toriyama would throw into the mix this time (and I can say that from actual firsthand experience of actually following it from one arc to the next during its original Japanese run, without ANY degree of "spoilers" out there). For all the criticisms it gets (some of them certainly warranted obviously) about being too long and draggy in spots, the series was also a LOT less outwardly formulaic and predictable in its overall grand scheme than I think some people are willing to admit to or realize.

Don't misunderstand me: there are indeed elements of Super that I genuinely DO like a lot and that I think ARE very much still in keeping with the original series at its best. Most of it though is on a raw CONCEPTUAL level, and the issues with Super arise with the actual execution of those concepts: which is precisely where the "crazy/silly" theory that the source of one of Super's biggest problems is that it isn't being mined from a full-blown actual manga of Toriyama's own direct creation.

Granted, Minus is indeed a worrying hint that even THEN Super might still have been an artistic failure due to some kind of artistic atrophy on Toriyama's part over the years: but apart from Minus at least, Toriyama has otherwise historically always been at his creative best when he's improvising and winging a manga together on the fly from one week or month to the next, and a whole lot less consistently so when other artists/creators are attempting to cobble something together from his brief notations and concept sketches (a lot of fantastic things and a lot of outright garbage alike have resulted from the latter approach, with Super certainly falling more closely into the latter camp).

But nonetheless, for as much shit as I give Super, I'm probably slightly MORE forgiving of some of its faults than even someone like Gaffer is. There are indeed certain stretches of Super here or there where some fleeting glimpses of "the old DB magic" seem to surface for a brief spell (and once again no, I disagree very strongly that its in the "slice of life" episodes, which are mostly just vapid and obnoxious nothings in themselves). But those moments are few and far and fleeting: overall, Super is very much a victim of a level of corporate influence hewing towards "play everything safe and familiar and pandering" that was (very much demonstrably and objectively) a LOT less overtly prevalent in the world of Japanese Shonen manga/anime back in the time period in which DB was originally being serialized (1980s and early 1990s, and in the 1970s before that as well) than it has been in the years since (late 90s to now).

If Super were willing to still continually shake up the series' status quo and take the characters and stories to new and interesting places (rather than merely hint at doing so briefly a lot of the time before falling back into old, familiar, popular beats from the original series run), I'd rag on it a HELLUVA lot less: to the limited degree that I even pay any serious attention to it as it is at any rate (its hard to when large chunks of it are so deathly dull and stale).

And yeah, sorry to be that guy, but going back and retconning critically important and defining old stories from the original run of the series (even anime-exclusive ones like the Bardock special) into something WILDLY less effective and compelling, is also something that doesn't do Super any real favors either. And no, OBVIOUSLY in this context, that isn't an "all change is bad" lamentation of nostalgia from some old dude.

If you'd been paying attention to ANY of my (and others like Gaffer's) criticisms of Super, not to mention many of my constant blasting away on this forum at the tiresomeness of obsessive/pandering nostalgia fetishization on the parts of both fans and creators alike, then clearly the bitching at retconning isn't about any sort of aversion to something new (since its Super's own aversion to trying new things and making them stick that's at the very heart of a lot of the non-power scaling-related complaints being lobbied at it): its about when the new thing in question is something that is demonstrably of greatly lesser quality and thought than what came before. That the lesser thing is also actually trying to overwrite the much better executed and handled older thing is simply adding further insult to injury.
http://80s90sdragonballart.tumblr.com/

Kunzait's Wuxia Thread
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

User avatar
VegettoEX
Kanzenshuu Co-Owner & Administrator
Posts: 16326
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:10 pm
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:43 pm

There's some genuine good discussion happening now, but we are getting a bit away from the intended question of: "Why does everyone take Dragon Ball so seriously?"

I'd personally like to hear more thoughts on that matter, particularly in light of what I was explaining myself earlier.
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::

User avatar
PFM18
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 3701
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by PFM18 » Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:58 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:It seems to me it's exactly what's being addressed. You asked why earlier DB gets a pass for the same concepts Super doesn't, and that is a very valid answer. Ideas by themselves do not a story make. I thought Super had some amazing ideas going in. I couldn't wait to see how this crazy, universe-destroying, team battle royale thing was going to play itself out. Fast forward six months, and you'd see me dreading Sunday mornings because I was just so bored every single week. Execution is very, very important.
Well it isn't exactly what I'm trying to address. Expressing concerns for the quality of the execution is perfectly legitimate and if you feel there's problems with the execution, then it's reasonable for you to voice that viewpoint. The problem is just as you said, that Z gets a pass for things that Super doesn't. Sure, you may think things are better executed in Z than Super. But then the criticism should be "Super didn't execute their tournaments well" or "Super didn't execute their transformations well." Otherwise, you are creating a double standard by saying "Super has too many transformations!" when Z has more transformations, or "Super has too many tournaments!" when DB had more tournaments. If it is executed poorly then the problem isn't that there's too many tournaments, transformations but rather the way that it was handled. Sure, execution is important I am not denying that.

You're criticism makes sense. By the time of the 23rd Budokai you were tired of tournaments, and so naturally you wouldn't be a fan of the 4th and 5th tournaments. Also, you thought that arcs within Z depended too much on transformations and so naturally you may consider it an issue in Super. This is fair criticism that is logically coherent and not something that I'm trying to address. I'm not trying to say that Super is great and you'd be dumb not to like it or something like that, I'm just saying that there's clearly a biased view of it when compared to the original series. Like I said, it may be nostalgia based or not, I don't care much to speculate too much why, but objectively it does exist.

As far as the way that you were dreading each episode every week, that's a shame. I guess we fall on the opposite sides of this spectrum because I literally could not wait for the next episode every week, to the point where Super ending kind of impacted my life style in the sense that Saturday nights were just another night. Personally, I am looking forward to getting a chance to re-watch it for a 2nd time. I found it to be the most enjoyable tournament by far in the franchise. It was the first battle royale, and I think the dynamic nature that resulted made things more interesting. Even if it did become a little more predictable because all the Universes made a decision to target Universe 7, I still got the idea that I didn't know what was going to happen next. I mean absolutely nobody came even close to predicting what actually happened even within the smaller scope of the end of the tournament. Don't get me wrong, I loved the 22nd and 23rd Tenkaichi Budokais, but this was a better experience for me, and that admittedly may have something to do with my affinity for stories involving Vegeta.\

More on topic, I don't see anything wrong with taking Dragon Ball very seriously. If it is something that you enjoy as much as a lot of fans do, then naturally you become emotionally invested and passionate about it. Life is too short to not be passionate about things that you like or enjoy.

User avatar
Kaiza_Toshiyuki
Temporarily Banned
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:32 pm
Location: South Carolina

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Kaiza_Toshiyuki » Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:03 pm

The question I originally displayed as the title would be better stated as ¨Why do some unsavory individuals feel that when their Ideals or views are challenged by other fans of the series, or by retcons within the series, they feel the need to voice their displeasure in the most annoying, disrespectful way possible.¨ My original intent was to hear others experiences with these types of fans and get some insight on the way these people have made discussions within the fanbase difficult. I didn't intend to hear about peoples criticisms for the series and stuff about ¨Whats wrong with Dragon Ball¨. To put it simply, I wanted to hear about the people that are labeled as ¨Toxic¨

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 15499
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by ABED » Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:12 pm

I realize I rub some people the wrong way. I get very passionate about the points I make because I enjoy a good spirited debate, but it's never to insult people. I honestly don't see the issue with telling someone they're wrong in very blunt terms.

I admit I like to be right (something I'm trying to work on), but I'm not the most effective communicator so what is more me trying to argue my point comes across as less positive than I intend. All this meaning I think short of insults, seemingly toxic behavior is often miscommunication.
Last edited by ABED on Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10529
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Doctor. » Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:14 pm

Kaiza_Toshiyuki wrote:The question I originally displayed as the title would be better stated as ¨Why do some unsavory individuals feel that when their Ideals or views are challenged by other fans of the series, or by retcons within the series, they feel the need to voice their displeasure in the most annoying, disrespectful way possible.¨ My original intent was to hear others experiences with these types of fans and get some insight on the way these people have made discussions within the fanbase difficult. I didn't intend to hear about peoples criticisms for the series and stuff about ¨Whats wrong with Dragon Ball¨. To put it simply, I wanted to hear about the people that are labeled as ¨Toxic¨
People connect to art. When someone challenges their perception of the work of art in question, be it other fans or the author himself, then naturally that is going to elicit some kind of response. This isn't exclusive to Dragon Ball, you may just notice it more because: 1) it is a very popular franchise, and 2) it's getting fresh new material years after its original run.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 15499
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by ABED » Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:19 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Kaiza_Toshiyuki wrote:The question I originally displayed as the title would be better stated as ¨Why do some unsavory individuals feel that when their Ideals or views are challenged by other fans of the series, or by retcons within the series, they feel the need to voice their displeasure in the most annoying, disrespectful way possible.¨ My original intent was to hear others experiences with these types of fans and get some insight on the way these people have made discussions within the fanbase difficult. I didn't intend to hear about peoples criticisms for the series and stuff about ¨Whats wrong with Dragon Ball¨. To put it simply, I wanted to hear about the people that are labeled as ¨Toxic¨
People connect to art. When someone challenges their perception of the work of art in question, be it other fans or the author himself, then naturally that is going to illicit some kind of response. This isn't exclusive to Dragon Ball, you may just notice it more because: 1) it is a very popular franchise, and 2) it's getting fresh new material years after its original run.
That's another thing. It can feel bad to hear someone knock something we like, even art. We personally connect to the art we like for reasons such as it expresses our view of the world, our sense of life. It's not surprising when people don't take it well.

I do think online fandoms are nice because they connect people who wouldn't otherwise meet, but the downside is there's very little cost to saying the worst things that are on your mind and hitting "enter." Before the internet, if you disliked something and wanted people to know it, it took more effort.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Eire
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1042
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:58 pm
Location: The Promised Land
Contact:

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Eire » Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:34 pm

Before the Internet you had to tell it face to face and it was harder than writing to avatar. I'm active Star Wars fan and I've met the worst forms of shaming, insulting and gatekeeping when I frequented online fora so I wasn't surprised with latest scandals. Meanwhile those who I met in person are gently, cheerful, energetic people with hearts on their sleeves.

Back to Kanzenshuu: some posts might come more offensive than they were intended to be. The art of discussing via posts is different from talking face to face or even in chat and everyone must learn to paint his emotion with wall of text.
It's even more difficult for users for whom English is not a native language. Even those with perfect grammar and orthography often struggle with emotional weight of foreign words since dictionaries doesn't fully explain all nuances that natives feel instantly. I mentioned here that I'm uncomfortable with frequent use of "hate" in English since it's equivalent is a very strong word in Polish and we tend to favor milder forms for expressing discontent (at least wen you don't want to imply that you are ready to nuke something).
Last edited by Eire on Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Per aspera ad astra, man!

Women belong in the kitchen.
Men belong in the kitchen.
Everyone belongs in the kitchen, the kitchen has food

User avatar
Kaiza_Toshiyuki
Temporarily Banned
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:32 pm
Location: South Carolina

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Kaiza_Toshiyuki » Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:37 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Kaiza_Toshiyuki wrote:The question I originally displayed as the title would be better stated as ¨Why do some unsavory individuals feel that when their Ideals or views are challenged by other fans of the series, or by retcons within the series, they feel the need to voice their displeasure in the most annoying, disrespectful way possible.¨ My original intent was to hear others experiences with these types of fans and get some insight on the way these people have made discussions within the fanbase difficult. I didn't intend to hear about peoples criticisms for the series and stuff about ¨Whats wrong with Dragon Ball¨. To put it simply, I wanted to hear about the people that are labeled as ¨Toxic¨
People connect to art. When someone challenges their perception of the work of art in question, be it other fans or the author himself, then naturally that is going to elicit some kind of response. This isn't exclusive to Dragon Ball, you may just notice it more because: 1) it is a very popular franchise, and 2) it's getting fresh new material years after its original run.
Oh yeah, I know it not just in Dragon Ball. It's in all kinds of things like Steven universe, Rick and morty, Undertale, the list goes on. But this is a Dragon Ball forum, so I´m talking about Dragon Ball.
ABED wrote:I realize I rub some people the wrong way. I get very passionate about the points I make because I enjoy a good spirited debate, but it's never to insult people. I honestly don't see the issue with telling someone they're wrong in very blunt terms.

I admit I like to be right (something I'm trying to work on), but I'm not the most effective communicator so what is more me trying to argue my point comes across as less positive than I intend. All this meaning I think short of insults, seemingly toxic behavior is often miscommunication.
You are absolutely right. Using blunt terms to get your point across is just a part of discussing anything really. But I feel like a line is crossed when you go from calling someone stupid or an idiot, to making comments about ethnicity, race, personal background, and other things of the sort.
Last edited by Kaiza_Toshiyuki on Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10529
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Doctor. » Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:44 pm

Kaiza_Toshiyuki wrote:You are absolutely right. Using blunt terms to get your point across is just a part of discussing anything really. But I feel like a line a crossed when you go from calling someone stupid or an idiot, to making comments about ethnicity, race, personal background, and other things of the sort.
Then that's a bigger issue with that specific individual than just "taking Dragon Ball so seriously."

User avatar
VegettoEX
Kanzenshuu Co-Owner & Administrator
Posts: 16326
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:10 pm
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:47 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Kaiza_Toshiyuki wrote:You are absolutely right. Using blunt terms to get your point across is just a part of discussing anything really. But I feel like a line a crossed when you go from calling someone stupid or an idiot, to making comments about ethnicity, race, personal background, and other things of the sort.
Then that's a bigger issue with that specific individual than just "taking Dragon Ball so seriously."
Agreed. This kind of stuff is absolutely not in line with our community guidelines, and if you see it happening and it is not already clearly addressed by a moderator, please use the built-in functionality to report the post and let us know.

That kind of stuff is not welcome, does not, and will never represent Kanzenshuu as website or its community.

(That being said, as is already being discussed a little bit here: harsh criticism of art is not a condemnation on "you" as an individual.)
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::

Post Reply