Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by ABED » Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:03 pm

Not only did you have to talk to someone face to face pre-internet, if you wanted your views to be made public, you might have to send a letter to the editor in which case there was an editor who could simply refuse to publish. Before then you had to actually write, put it in an envelope, place a stamp, and put it in the mail box and wait for something to happen, if it ever did. By then, you had to REALLY want people to know how you felt. Hitting "enter" is SO much easier.
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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by PFM18 » Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:42 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Kaiza_Toshiyuki wrote:You are absolutely right. Using blunt terms to get your point across is just a part of discussing anything really. But I feel like a line a crossed when you go from calling someone stupid or an idiot, to making comments about ethnicity, race, personal background, and other things of the sort.
Then that's a bigger issue with that specific individual than just "taking Dragon Ball so seriously."
I have definitely never agreed with you more lol. I'd contend that the extent to which they take Dragon Ball seriously is pretty much irrelevant to their problem here.

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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Kaiza_Toshiyuki » Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:58 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Kaiza_Toshiyuki wrote:You are absolutely right. Using blunt terms to get your point across is just a part of discussing anything really. But I feel like a line a crossed when you go from calling someone stupid or an idiot, to making comments about ethnicity, race, personal background, and other things of the sort.
Then that's a bigger issue with that specific individual than just "taking Dragon Ball so seriously."
I have definitely never agreed with you more lol. I'd contend that the extent to which they take Dragon Ball seriously is pretty much irrelevant to their problem here.
The end result is fueled by them loving the franchise so much to the point of saying and doing stupid stuff, as stated in the opening post of this thread. I´d thought I´d made that clear. It's not irrelevant. That's like saying that failing a drivers test is irrelevant to why a drunk guy crashed a car. I´m not saying all people in the fandom, let alone all toxic fans are like this, but you would be surprised by how often it happens. It's a substantial amount.

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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Doctor. » Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:02 pm

Kaiza_Toshiyuki wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Then that's a bigger issue with that specific individual than just "taking Dragon Ball so seriously."
I have definitely never agreed with you more lol. I'd contend that the extent to which they take Dragon Ball seriously is pretty much irrelevant to their problem here.
The end result is fueled by them loving the franchise so much to the point of saying and doing stupid stuff, as stated in the opening post of this thread. I´d thought I´d made that clear. It's not irrelevant. That's like saying that failing a drivers test is irrelevant to why a drunk guy crashed a car. I´m not saying all people in the fandom, let alone all toxic fans are like this, but you would be surprised by how often it happens. It's a substantial amount.
If someone gets so mad over an argument that they call someone the n-word, then that's not because they got too attached to Dragon Ball. That's because they have some deeper, more important issues which would surface regardless of the topic of discussion.

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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by PFM18 » Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:34 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Kaiza_Toshiyuki wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
I have definitely never agreed with you more lol. I'd contend that the extent to which they take Dragon Ball seriously is pretty much irrelevant to their problem here.
The end result is fueled by them loving the franchise so much to the point of saying and doing stupid stuff, as stated in the opening post of this thread. I´d thought I´d made that clear. It's not irrelevant. That's like saying that failing a drivers test is irrelevant to why a drunk guy crashed a car. I´m not saying all people in the fandom, let alone all toxic fans are like this, but you would be surprised by how often it happens. It's a substantial amount.
If someone gets so mad over an argument that they call someone the n-word, then that's not because they got too attached to Dragon Ball. That's because they have some deeper, more important issues which would surface regardless of the topic of discussion.
Yeah exactly. I don't think a side effect of being emotionally invested in Dragon Ball is becoming racist and/or malicious.

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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by coola » Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:39 am

I don't mind BS power ups, since thats one of charms of shounen ;) What i don't like however, is breaking estabilished rules, first you say evil being are going to hell as souls or get reincarnated if they wre really bad, and then you have Freeza and others keeping their bodies, and then Freeza have its own place in hell, like, make up your mind! And then there are cases when writers clearly don't know what they are doing (Piccolo getting eliminated without hearing enemy sneaking up to him, throwing rocks at GoD Toppo)
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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by ShadowBardock89 » Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:02 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Kaiza_Toshiyuki wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
I have definitely never agreed with you more lol. I'd contend that the extent to which they take Dragon Ball seriously is pretty much irrelevant to their problem here.
The end result is fueled by them loving the franchise so much to the point of saying and doing stupid stuff, as stated in the opening post of this thread. I´d thought I´d made that clear. It's not irrelevant. That's like saying that failing a drivers test is irrelevant to why a drunk guy crashed a car. I´m not saying all people in the fandom, let alone all toxic fans are like this, but you would be surprised by how often it happens. It's a substantial amount.
If someone gets so mad over an argument that they call someone the n-word, then that's not because they got too attached to Dragon Ball. That's because they have some deeper, more important issues which would surface regardless of the topic of discussion.
Agreed, at that point the conversation ceases to be on the topic of Dragon Ball and more centered on the "toxic fan."
Another point to consider is how much of the "unrighteous indignation" uncouthly expressed by the "fan" is legitimate? "Kicking the hornet's nest" is exactly what trolls do.
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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by SSJ YUSUKE » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:01 pm

coola wrote:I don't mind BS power ups, since thats one of charms of shounen ;) What i don't like however, is breaking estabilished rules, first you say evil being are going to hell as souls or get reincarnated if they wre really bad, and then you have Freeza and others keeping their bodies, and then Freeza have its own place in hell, like, make up your mind! And then there are cases when writers clearly don't know what they are doing (Piccolo getting eliminated without hearing enemy sneaking up to him, throwing rocks at GoD Toppo)
There are no established rules in the series. They have constantly been broken even since the early days of dragonball. Its not the kind of series that is supposed to be analyzed in that way. The writers clearly understand writing better than you since they are proffesionals, you may not agree with them, doesn't mean that they don't know what they are doing.

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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by SSJ YUSUKE » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:14 pm

The people who complain about Super on this site and on youtube and other platforms are a vocal minority who consume and analyze the franchise differently than the vast majority of fans.
The franchise is not disliked. Believe it or not most of us fans just enjoy watching cool fights and seeing the franchise continue, the vocal fanboy minority does not understand this and they are able to create echo chambers on forums such as this one where most of us can't be really bothered to comment anymore.
I want to talk about how cool Trunks cutting Zamasu in half was, the tragic but unique ending of the Future Trunks arc. I want to talk about how we are able to see weak characters fighting again. I want to talk about the awesome battle between the Z fighters and the frieza army. I want to talk about how badass female characters like Mai, Bulma, Caulifla, Kale and 18 have been. I want to talk about so many things. Unfourtantly a certian part of the toxic fandom makes it impossible for fans like us to enjoy discussing the series in this way.

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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Forte224 » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:28 pm

Can you provide proof of this vocal minority? Or are you just coming up with these things to support your argument?

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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Kuwabara » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:01 pm

Doctor. wrote:Good thing I said the Goku Black arc borrows its premise from the Cell arc, not that they were identical, then.
They were still right to call you out, the arcs have nothing in common besides having Trunks and time travel. Most obvious of note is the lack of any androids, and Goku Black even flips the Cell arc's premise on its head by flinging Goku and Vegeta into the future this time around.
Doctor. wrote:It depends on what you mean by "flaws that are also quite prevalent in Z." I find that it's a matter of execution. While Super and Z may share the same flaws superficially, they may be less intrusive to the experience in Z, while they may stick out like a sore thumb in Super. The nonsensical and arbitrary power-ups for one.
Yeah, none of the power-ups matter in the slightest unlike Ultra Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 3, most of the Freeza's forms, most of Buu's forms etc.

And in Z's case, I'd definitely say the flaws in common are more than superficial. For example, complaints about the Tournament of Power's pacing are a complete joke in the face of the Buu arc taking up nearly a third of the entire series in Z. That certainly sticks out like a sore thumb.
Doctor. wrote:There was no need for Trunks or time travel to be involved in a plot about a rogue Kaioshin stealing Goku's body, and the premise of the arc could have actually been far more interesting if reworked to make Goku take a backseat for the majority of the arc, but they decided to bank on familiarity and bring back future Trunks.
To borrow some of your parlance, I find that it's a matter of execution... How is Trunks' involvement needless when he serves as a perfect foil to Zamasu? Mortal conviction vs. malevolent deism is a conflict well worth exploring, and it appears to climax beautifully in Trunks dealing what he believes to be the finishing blow to Zamasu. Trunks' rousing speech, the aid of his timeline's scant survivors in a time of need, and the mysterious nature of their combined power, all speak to the profound nature of human potential. Unfortunately, Trunks' limits, the limits of mankind, can only be pushed so far... Sometimes, they're pushed too far.

Enter Zamasu: a deity driven mad by the boundless potential for beauty that mortal life could attain... If only those pesky mortals just fell in line! In Zamasu's eyes, Trunks might be the worst of the lot... Broke cosmic laws to attain much of his power, was borne of an era ripped to shreds by a malicious Android attack (orchestrated by a mortal, himself crudely augmented by technology to exceed mortality), and fought alongside Saiyans frolicking about like gods... The nerve! What better justification could Zamasu have? Zamasu himself also breaks rules in his quest for justice: killing his master, stealing sacred tools that bend the fabric of time and space, using the Super Dragon Balls for vengeful purposes, robbing the body, the flesh of another, even embodying evil itself... But they're not at all equal. Trunks' brand of justice represents all that Zamasu, in all his beauty and godliness, could never achieve, for it's a sense of justice intrinsically mortal, innocent, and earnest in nature. Goku mirrors this as well, for his childlike innocence sways Zeno and serves as the true, ultimate blow to Zamasu. It's not unlike Satan's fall from grace before heaven, and it should be no coincidence that Whis, an angel, takes it upon himself to right the wrongs of Zamasu in a timeline Trunks is allowed to inhabit, a world fallen from what could be framed as Paradise. Trunks and his mother eat the fruit and open Pandora's Box as soon as they travel through time... It seems fittingly cruel that Trunks must deal with the death of Bulma in at least one timeline, all because he wanted to right the wrongs of his world. The extent of Trunks' selflessness is exemplified in the Cell arc, when he stands to fight with everyone in the main timeline in spite of it making no difference in his. For this reason, I believe Trunks to be the true hero of that arc, and of this one as well... But a flawed hero, not without selfishness as well. This is a prevailing theme in Dragon Ball.

In fighting for justice, in exceeding their limits, or more appropriately their bounds, Trunks and Zamasu both pay a hefty price. Instead of crafting a perfect plane of existence, Zamasu is instead banished from existence completely. The embodiment of hypocrisy and selfish evil, masquerading as holy justice, becomes the embodiment of nothing at all in one fell swoop. And Trunks, for all his effort, must bear the burden of his whole world being erased, along with all the evil he had been striving to purge from it. In the end, no one gets away scot-free. Trunks manages to persevere in spite of all that has happened, and appreciates what little humanity he has left to cherish. This is the perfect arc for Trunks as a character to end on, and is very much in the Dragon Ball tradition of mortals making terrible mistakes and pushing through them in spite of their consequences. The difference with the Goku Black arc is that all of the selfish mortality and meddling finally come to a head in the biggest way yet. The Elder Kaioshin warned of it profusely, and Goku initially resisted coming back to life after the Cell Games because of what his presence could continue to mean for the Earth. Goku comes back, what happens? The Earth and several other planets are blown up by Buu! They're all brought back by the Dragon Balls, but what cosmic chaos might that incur upon our heroes later? None of this is arbitrary, and the Goku Black arc builds upon all of it splendidly, not poorly as you suggest. It's the most substantive sequence of events in Dragon Ball history, with several events in Z helping to set the stage. The Goku Black arc also complements the main theme running throughout Super, that of mortals ascending to godhood. The road there isn't going to be all sunshine and roses... This is what the Tournament of Power continues to pave the way toward. Goku momentarily exceeds Gods of Destruction, Freeza may prove to be another Zamasu, and Jiren represents yet another ugly price to pay for power...
Doctor. wrote:and the premise of the arc could have actually been far more interesting if reworked to make Goku take a backseat for the majority of the arc, but they decided to bank on familiarity and bring back future Trunks.
I'm curious to know what you had in mind here. I certainly don't think Goku's role in the arc is without merit or purpose, but I might have dispensed with some of his screen time in favor of more focus on Trunks and Zamasu.
Doctor. wrote:I say the series has no identity, because it really has no identity; there's very little iconic imagery in Super that doesn't borrow from the original series. And as for the Tournament of the Power, though the premise may be unique, in execution it plays out exactly like any other arc in Z. It's just a series of isolated fights, with very little being done with the actual setting and scenario being presented.
From a visual standpoint I'd have to disagree, as Super has some of the most thrilling examples of sakuga and fight choreography in the series. In terms of singular moments, there are several worth pointing out: Vegeta becoming engulfed with rage after Beerus hits Bulma, Goku's clash with Beerus in space, Goku's finishing blow on Hit, Trunks slicing Zamasu in two, Gohan's farewell to Trunks as him and Mai fly off in the time machine, the hilarious baseball and Dr. Slump episodes, Gohan standing by his convictions and maintaining his Mystic form in the face of his father's godly ki (advancing the theme of mortal potential), Roshi's plea for his students to keep fighting and living to the fullest, Vegeta knocking down Jiren, Goku's various brushes with Ultra Instinct, Vegeta's promise to Cabba, Vegeta's battle with Toppo, Goku and Freeza using the final shreds of their power to take down Jiren, 17 of all people winning the whole tournament... The way in which the Tournament of Power progresses is kind of a manic mess to experience, and the stakes aren't heightened with a time limit being involved at all... But the arc also accounts for much of Super's most standout scenes. And for any of them that might borrow from the original series... Don't sequels kind of do that out of necessity?
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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by PFM18 » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:28 pm

SSJ YUSUKE wrote:most of us fans just enjoy watching cool fights and seeing the franchise continue
Yeah I can't agree with that myself. While cool fights are obviously important,They lose all value if they aren't surrounded by quality in other aspects. In a vaccum, an aesthetically pleasing fight has no emotional weight and isn't compelling in any way further than just superficial ones.
Forte224 wrote:Can you provide proof of this vocal minority? Or are you just coming up with these things to support your argument?
I mean if the fandom on this site reflected the reception of the fandom as a whole then Super wouldn't be so wildly successful. As things stand right now, It is very popular and is making a lot of money and that can be proven in several ways. The dichotomy between the almost unanimous hate towards Super on this site compared to the reception you see on things like twitter, reddit and other forums, shows that this is a vocal minority.

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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Nokra » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:38 pm

SSJ YUSUKE wrote:The people who complain about Super on this site and on youtube and other platforms are a vocal minority who consume and analyze the franchise differently than the vast majority of fans.
The franchise is not disliked. Believe it or not most of us fans just enjoy watching cool fights and seeing the franchise continue, the vocal fanboy minority does not understand this and they are able to create echo chambers on forums such as this one where most of us can't be really bothered to comment anymore.
I want to talk about how cool Trunks cutting Zamasu in half was, the tragic but unique ending of the Future Trunks arc. I want to talk about how we are able to see weak characters fighting again. I want to talk about the awesome battle between the Z fighters and the frieza army. I want to talk about how badass female characters like Mai, Bulma, Caulifla, Kale and 18 have been. I want to talk about so many things. Unfourtantly a certian part of the toxic fandom makes it impossible for fans like us to enjoy discussing the series in this way.
I agree but of course there will always be those certain fans trying to micro analyze everything and look for inconsistencies or plot holes instead of just enjoying the series for what it is. And if you say that you just want to watch it for what it is they'll insult you. I love dragonball but the fandom can be really cancerous and toxic most of the time.

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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Forte224 » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:59 pm

I've seen tons of criticism for Super in places besides here. Dragon Ball sells regardless of quality. It's Dragon Ball. Look how well Resurrection F did.

I'm not here to argue about Super's quality, but I can't stand fanboy logic that tosses aside criticism by saying "Well yeah that's just a minority BLAH BLAH BLAH I can't hear you and your criticism."

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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Kuwabara » Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:06 pm

Forte224 wrote:I've seen tons of criticism for Super in places besides here. Dragon Ball sells regardless of quality. It's Dragon Ball. Look how well Resurrection F did.
I happen to like Resurrection F just fine for the record, but the movie version pales before Battle of Gods, and is the weakest part of Super by far.
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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by PFM18 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:37 am

Forte224 wrote:I've seen tons of criticism for Super in places besides here. Dragon Ball sells regardless of quality. It's Dragon Ball. Look how well Resurrection F did.

I'm not here to argue about Super's quality, but I can't stand fanboy logic that tosses aside criticism by saying "Well yeah that's just a minority BLAH BLAH BLAH I can't hear you and your criticism."
You can't just dismiss any possible success as just being because of the DB label. You and I both know if it was truly crap it wouldn't be popular. Look at GT. GT was crap so it only lasted 64 episodes, wasn't as popular, didn't make as much money and just generally didn't have as much success. The success of the product is a reflection of the quality

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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Forte224 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:53 am

PFM18 wrote:
Forte224 wrote:I've seen tons of criticism for Super in places besides here. Dragon Ball sells regardless of quality. It's Dragon Ball. Look how well Resurrection F did.

I'm not here to argue about Super's quality, but I can't stand fanboy logic that tosses aside criticism by saying "Well yeah that's just a minority BLAH BLAH BLAH I can't hear you and your criticism."
You can't just dismiss any possible success as just being because of the DB label. You and I both know if it was truly crap it wouldn't be popular. Look at GT. GT was crap so it only lasted 64 episodes, wasn't as popular, didn't make as much money and just generally didn't have as much success. The success of the product is a reflection of the quality
The Resurrection F movie is almost universally viewed as poor and it too still made tons of money. You're ignoring my point anyway. Shutting off your ears to your beloved Super by saying "Oh it's just a vocal minority" in an attempt to negate the criticism is a weak stance to take. Kanzenshuu is most certainly not the only place Super receives criticism. And if you're talking yourself into believing so, then I don't know why we're even having a discussion. Shallow blanket statements are the weapons of fanboys.

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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by PFM18 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:20 am

Forte224 wrote:The Resurrection F movie is almost universally viewed as poor and it too still made tons of money.
A movie is not a one-to-one comparison here and it is a poor example. The reception of a movie functions completely differently. People like Dragon Ball, so they go see the Dragon Ball movie. But if they realized that it sucked, it doesn't really matter because Toei already got their money. The exchange was already made. The only influence they could have is discouraging others from seeing it. The views is a reflection of the hype of a movie. Also, Ressurrection F wasn't THAT bad.

longevity of an anime is a function of it's quality. In the anime, sure, people may initially tune in because it is Dragon Ball, but if the product is bad people will stop tuning in. The longer the product stays bad, the more people that will lose interest in it and stop watching, and obviously result in less money. In Super's case, the demand and popularity didn't drop towards the end, it stayed fairly constant. It didn't sour to the fans. With GT, it wasn't that good so it simply wasn't successful.
Shutting off your ears to your beloved Super by saying "Oh it's just a vocal minority"
This isn't a matter of "shutting off your ears" this is simply a matter of acknowledging that there is a vocal minority. Obviously people can still criticize it and it will be discussed.
Kanzenshuu is most certainly not the only place Super receives criticism
I never said it was? Not even close. Here you are accusing me of making blanket statements and are just blatantly strawmaning me. Kanzenshuu appears to have a disproportionately high amount of people criticizing it when compared to the rest of the fandom. Of course other places still criticize it and frequently. But across the fandom as a whole, Super has clearly received positive reception. The vocal minority exists in the fandom as a whole, not just on Kanzenshuu, obviously. Although from my personal experience it is where it receives the most negative feedback compared to other places. Had this negative feedback constituted the majority, or even close, it wouldn't have had the success that it has had.

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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Timetraveller » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:27 am

PFM18 wrote:
Forte224 wrote:The Resurrection F movie is almost universally viewed as poor and it too still made tons of money.
A movie is not a one-to-one comparison here and it is a poor example. The reception of a movie functions completely differently. People like Dragon Ball, so they go see the Dragon Ball movie. But if they realized that it sucked, it doesn't really matter because Toei already got their money. The exchange was already made. The only influence they could have is discouraging others from seeing it. The views is a reflection of the hype of a movie. Also, Ressurrection F wasn't THAT bad.

longevity of an anime is a function of it's quality. In the anime, sure, people may initially tune in because it is Dragon Ball, but if the product is bad people will stop tuning in. The longer the product stays bad, the more people that will lose interest in it and stop watching, and obviously result in less money. In Super's case, the demand and popularity didn't drop towards the end, it stayed fairly constant. It didn't sour to the fans. With GT, it wasn't that good so it simply wasn't successful.
Shutting off your ears to your beloved Super by saying "Oh it's just a vocal minority"
This isn't a matter of "shutting off your ears" this is simply a matter of acknowledging that there is a vocal minority. Obviously people can still criticize it and it will be discussed.
Kanzenshuu is most certainly not the only place Super receives criticism
I never said it was? Not even close. Here you are accusing me of making blanket statements and are just blatantly strawmaning me. Kanzenshuu appears to have a disproportionately high amount of people criticizing it when compared to the rest of the fandom. Of course other places still criticize it and frequently. But across the fandom as a whole, Super has clearly received positive reception. The vocal minority exists in the fandom as a whole, not just on Kanzenshuu, obviously. Although from my personal experience it is where it receives the most negative feedback compared to other places. Had this negative feedback constituted the majority, or even close, it wouldn't have had the success that it has had.
Longevity of an anime or any media is almost always purely dependent on financial success. You only have to look at films like the Transformers series or long-running shows like the Simpsons. They're long because they're still financially viable not because they're high quality shows. Both shows have one thing in common (among other things). They rely heavily on people's nostalgia and there'll always be an audience for it as long as it stays mediocre and watchable. So how many episodes a tv show is or how many sequels a film spawns isn't actually an accurate measure of its "quality". The best shows are well-planned out and know when to end. They don't run indefinitely until the money runs out. It took more than 3 decades for Blade Runner to get a sequel in spite of its critical acclaim. Doesn't mean it was a bad movie.

With GT, the show likely wasn't making as much money as DBZ did so they didn't have the incentive to milk it dry. It didn't abruptly end mid-season like other cancelled shows and actually had a nice finale that tied everything up quite nicely with the hero and the dragonballs.

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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:01 am

SSJ YUSUKE wrote:most of us fans just enjoy watching cool fights and seeing the franchise continue
I wish someone could actually take a moment to explain why exactly they think it is that just seeing something continue on for its own sake, irrespective of content or quality, is seen as such a desirable end unto itself.
SSJ YUSUKE wrote:the vocal fanboy minority does not understand this and they are able to create echo chambers on forums such as this one where most of us can't be really bothered to comment anymore.
I want to talk about how cool Trunks cutting Zamasu in half was, the tragic but unique ending of the Future Trunks arc. I want to talk about how we are able to see weak characters fighting again. I want to talk about the awesome battle between the Z fighters and the frieza army. I want to talk about how badass female characters like Mai, Bulma, Caulifla, Kale and 18 have been. I want to talk about so many things. Unfourtantly a certian part of the toxic fandom makes it impossible for fans like us to enjoy discussing the series in this way.
What you just said is a blatant contradiction. It effectively amounts to:

"I just want a place where me and people who think exactly like me can just gush about something we all have the same exact opinion on without ANY dissenting views whatsoever. Why must these people who disagree with me keep popping up and saying things that clash against what I think and thus... somehow make everything into an echo chamber?"

This sounds like textbook projection: the person who clearly wants the "echo chamber" is YOU. Other people are acting like free thinking individuals coming to their own opinions and conclusions that differ greatly from yours and people you see as agreeing with you. And because its bothering you that you aren't having your exact opinions echoed back to you enough, you claim that the people with the dissenting perspectives are "creating an echo chamber", accusing them of doing exactly what it is that you want to be doing. When ultimately, people are just saying what they really think about Super, after thinking about it critically.

And no, critical thinking does NOT in ANY way make for a "toxic fandom", as you seem to be alluding to here. Thinking critically beyond just what pleases one's lizard brain and pleasure centers is the EXACT opposite of what generally leads to toxic discourse in many/most cases.

And I say all of this as someone who loves cool supernatural martial arts fighting in and of itself (including some of the ones featured in Super) more than just fine, thanks very much.

And lastly, there's MORE than PLENTY of people on this forum who seem to love Super a great deal plenty and are positively eating most of it up. So I don't even understand what the problem even is here exactly, other than "Why must some people think differently than me and say things that I disagree with!?"
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Kunzait's Wuxia Thread
Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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