Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

SSJ YUSUKE
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 203
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:48 pm

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by SSJ YUSUKE » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:10 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:
SSJ YUSUKE wrote:most of us fans just enjoy watching cool fights and seeing the franchise continue
I wish someone could actually take a moment to explain why exactly they think it is that just seeing something continue on for its own sake, irrespective of content or quality, is seen as such a desirable end unto itself.
SSJ YUSUKE wrote:the vocal fanboy minority does not understand this and they are able to create echo chambers on forums such as this one where most of us can't be really bothered to comment anymore.
I want to talk about how cool Trunks cutting Zamasu in half was, the tragic but unique ending of the Future Trunks arc. I want to talk about how we are able to see weak characters fighting again. I want to talk about the awesome battle between the Z fighters and the frieza army. I want to talk about how badass female characters like Mai, Bulma, Caulifla, Kale and 18 have been. I want to talk about so many things. Unfourtantly a certian part of the toxic fandom makes it impossible for fans like us to enjoy discussing the series in this way.
What you just said is a blatant contradiction. It effectively amounts to:

"I just want a place where me and people who think exactly like me can just gush about something we all have the same exact opinion on without ANY dissenting views whatsoever. Why must these people who disagree with me keep popping up and saying things that clash against what I think and thus... somehow make everything into an echo chamber?"

This sounds like textbook projection: the person who clearly wants the "echo chamber" is YOU. Other people are acting like free thinking individuals coming to their own opinions and conclusions that differ greatly from yours and people you see as agreeing with you. And because its bothering you that you aren't having your exact opinions echoed back to you enough, you claim that the people with the dissenting perspectives are "creating an echo chamber", accusing them of doing exactly what it is that you want to be doing. When ultimately, people are just saying what they really think about Super, after thinking about it critically.

And no, critical thinking does NOT in ANY way make for a "toxic fandom", as you seem to be alluding to here. Thinking critically beyond just what pleases one's lizard brain and pleasure centers is the EXACT opposite of what generally leads to toxic discourse in many/most cases.

And I say all of this as someone who loves cool supernatural martial arts fighting in and of itself (including some of the ones featured in Super) more than just fine, thanks very much.

And lastly, there's MORE than PLENTY of people on this forum who seem to love Super a great deal plenty and are positively eating most of it up. So I don't even understand what the problem even is here exactly, other than "Why must some people think differently than me and say things that I disagree with!?"
Its pretty arrogant assumuming that people who enjoy Super do not think critically or that people who choose to take it for what it is are mindless fanboys. I actaully do think Super is good and surpasses the rest of the series in many ways but that doesn't take away from the fact that I think you have a right to have your own opinion about the franchise.
Everything about your response comes across as defensive and aggresive and I am not willing to have long arguments and waste my days arguing about a childrens cartoon that was never supposed to be analyzed or viewed "crtitcally". Its entertainment for kids.
I live and work in South East Asia as a teacher. You know who are the biggest fans of Dragonball Super I know? My students who are 6-10 years old. Its a series that is aimed at them. They don't care about critical thinking nonesense that grown up fanboys agonize over everyday. They just want to see cool action and cool transformations. Because believe or not they are the main demographic that the series is aimed at. I can enjoy Dragonball and so can other adults but you have to realise that whatever descions are made, you are not thw intended audience. My students love drawing pictures of Super Sayians and Super Saiyan blue whoever and bring their drogonball toys to school while eating their Dragonball brand of crisps at school where they can then get special cards in each pack which they share and swap with their friends because it is meant to cater to their age group and it through that lens that I view the series. Its a kids show, therefore as an adult and teacher it would be ridiculous to argue or think too much about a show meant for kids.
Doesn't mean I still can't enjoy it. I am happy to analyze and think about art and media that is meant to viewed through a more critical lense but Dragonball is definitly not one of those shows which was ever meant to appeal to that sensibility

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 16073
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by ABED » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:52 pm

Nothing is meant to be examined like that. Entertainment and stories are first and foremost meant to be enjoyed, but it's not at all asinine to ask that even a children's cartoon adhere to its own logic.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Majin Buu
Regular
Posts: 533
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 2:23 pm

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Majin Buu » Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:43 pm

SSJ YUSUKE wrote:I live and work in South East Asia as a teacher. You know who are the biggest fans of Dragonball Super I know? My students who are 6-10 years old. Its a series that is aimed at them. They don't care about critical thinking nonesense that grown up fanboys agonize over everyday. They just want to see cool action and cool transformations. Because believe or not they are the main demographic that the series is aimed at. I can enjoy Dragonball and so can other adults but you have to realise that whatever descions are made, you are not thw intended audience. My students love drawing pictures of Super Sayians and Super Saiyan blue whoever and bring their drogonball toys to school while eating their Dragonball brand of crisps at school where they can then get special cards in each pack which they share and swap with their friends because it is meant to cater to their age group and it through that lens that I view the series. Its a kids show, therefore as an adult and teacher it would be ridiculous to argue or think too much about a show meant for kids.
This is a non-argument. The target demographic liking it doesn't take away from any of what Kunzait said.

User avatar
Gaffer Tape
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5869
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:25 pm
Contact:

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:44 pm

SSJ YUSUKE wrote:*snip*
I'm not really sure what has you so bothered then if it's not what Kunzait said. I thought he was right on the money. You like Super? That's great. The kids you teach like Super? Also great. I'm happy for anyone who finds joy in something. But not everyone is going to. You say that Dragon Ball is targeted primarily at 6-10 year old boys, right? I'm certainly not going to argue that. Do you know what you're going to find a surprising shortage of on these boards? 6-10 year old boys. You're acting as if we're coming into your classroom, snatching the Super Saiyan Blue Goku action figures out of your kids' hands and telling them to stop having fun. What those of us who dislike Super think should be of no consequence to you, your students, or anybody else. You want to talk about how awesome you found Ultra Instinct? Have at it. There are lots of people on these boards who agree with you and would be happy to have that discussion with you. There is certainly nothing here that makes that "impossible" as you say. The only way there'd be a problem is if you expect your opinions to always go unquestioned. Because this is a discussion board, and you are going to find a wide range of opinions. There's nothing remotely toxic about that. Again, no one's telling you to stop having fun or enjoy what you like, so we'd appreciate the same courtesy as to not be called a toxic echo chamber just because some of us don't think it's very good, even by the standards of a work meant for children or the standards of Dragon Ball, specifically.
Do you follow the most comprehensive and entertaining Dragon Ball analysis series on YouTube? If you do, you're smart and awesome and fairly attractive. If not, see what all the fuss is about without even having to leave Kanzenshuu:

MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection Series Discussion Thread! (Updated 12/4/19!)
Current Episode: The Collapse of DBZ's Animation and Pacing - DBD TV: The Freeza Arc Part 2!

User avatar
Thanos
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1431
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:33 am
Location: San Antonio, TX

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Thanos » Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:51 pm

I'm curious as to what constitutes "way too seriously". That strikes me as gate-keeping. Who are you or I to tell someone their measure of enjoyment is incorrect somehow? Because of an arbitrary societal standard? I don't know why anyone would care about that. If you live, eat, breathe Dragon Ball and would defend your positions on power levels with your life, well... as long as you're not hurting anyone, what's that have to do with anyone else? If you're happy, go nuts.
Thanos before Thanos was cool.

User avatar
Ripper 30
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 768
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:16 am
Location: India
Contact:

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Ripper 30 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:54 pm

Why do some people take sports so seriously? why do people take video games so seriously? why do people take Marvel/DC so seriously?
because they love it or have passion for it.

we all are here on this site for a reason... what would it be?...
ofcourse its DRAGON BALL.

Everyone takes their favourite thing seriously. this Franchise till 1997 was awesome entertaining one with material with substance. but nowdays, after its revival it has turned into garbage cash cow after BoG.

SSJ YUSUKE wrote:The people who complain about Super on this site and on youtube and other platforms are a vocal minority who consume and analyze the franchise differently than the vast majority of fans.
The franchise is not disliked. Believe it or not most of us fans just enjoy watching cool fights and seeing the franchise continue, the vocal fanboy minority does not understand this and they are able to create echo chambers on forums such as this one where most of us can't be really bothered to comment anymore.
I want to talk about how cool Trunks cutting Zamasu in half was, the tragic but unique ending of the Future Trunks arc. I want to talk about how we are able to see weak characters fighting again. I want to talk about the awesome battle between the Z fighters and the frieza army. I want to talk about how badass female characters like Mai, Bulma, Caulifla, Kale and 18 have been. I want to talk about so many things. Unfourtantly a certian part of the toxic fandom makes it impossible for fans like us to enjoy discussing the series in this way.
The reason though why Dragonball super is so criticized is because, it doesn't met the bar that newer shounen shows have set for the genre. Not at all. It barely has a story, characters don't develop at all, no other characters do anything on screen outside filler, the constant aspulls and broken scaling, and the fighting choreography has been piss poor. Fanfic ideas like multi-colored Saiyan haired forms and Freeza being revived and nonsensical powerscaling and jumping leagues of power ahead in 6 months to the extent of what Freeza did never happened in Z. The only time when it was iffy was when Goku and Vegeta's Zenkais exponentially grew (numerically I mean, via the scouters' readings in the Saiyan/Namek arcs) and Piccolo's powerups, that's it. In Super, you have 17 vs a GoD in Toppo, SSj2 Trunks on par with SSj Blue and later on beating Merged Zamasu who was on-par with Vegetto Blue, etc. it has stupid commentary/expositions.I mean DB/Z had commentary during fighting, but it wasn't "useless" like in Super. Commentary like say, during the Cell Games, wasn't used as fluff to prolong an episode's length, whereas in Super, its exactly that lol. It also didn't happen every 2 min either. plot in Super has been convoluted and actually requires head canon just to understand (bad writing), and that it doesn't build off of the standards Z started. Z still holds up water to the newer shows inspired by Z. Even GT to some people gets its respect for at least still feeling like Z even if its delivery has the same problems, but its strengths over Super still hold up the bar Z did. Most modern anime raised the bar far higher than the cashgrab Toei sees Super as. I don't really care what Super fanboys will say, compared to shows like Hero Academia and Hunter X Hunter.

i mean just read the comments of Toriyama on Broli movie idea. he added him "because fans love it and he's popular among us", WHAT?
that's like Oda bringing back Ace again because fans love him or Araki bringing Back Jonathan, Jotaro and Joseph because fans love them, etc.

obviously everyone will take this seriously and get mad because we can critisize the things we like. Dragon Ball nowdays is garbage franchise in terms of storytelling and its all about Fan pandering now.
I prefer Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, DB/Z/GT Movies, Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball GT in Japanese.
For DBZ Kai and two new Movies I like both Dub and Sub. I Prefer Shunsuke Kikuchi Soundtracks over All other Composers.
My MAL profile : https://myanimelist.net/profile/Ripper_30

User avatar
PFM18
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 3701
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by PFM18 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:03 pm

Ripper 99 wrote:It barely has a story, characters don't develop at all,
*Has the most complex villain with nuanced motivations and aspirations with a full-scale story alongside what is by far the most ambitious story in the franchise that actually brings light to Goku's reckless obsession with fighting*

"barely has a story"

Sure man, totally. Also, this is the 3rd installment of the anime and a sequel to a manga of 519 chapters in length. Obviously, the characters aren't going to develop as much. Even then, there's still character development whether you actually decide to see it or not.
. Fanfic ideas like multi-colored Saiyan haired forms and Freeza being revived and nonsensical powerscaling and jumping leagues of power ahead in 6 months to the extent of what Freeza did never happened in Z
The original Super Saiyan is literally re-colored hair because Toriyama was too lazy to fill in Goku's hair. This is hardly new territory or any different. Freeza getting a huge power-up contradicts absolutely nothing because there was never a precedent set for what you should expect from his power gains from training. The only legitimately inconsistent power-up is Future Trunks. The same cannot be said about DBZ. Not even close. You're either confused or being biased because the scaling sure as hell wasn't any better in Z.
The only time when it was iffy was when Goku and Vegeta's Zenkais exponentially grew (numerically I mean, via the scouters' readings in the Saiyan/Namek arcs) and Piccolo's powerups, that's it
Yeah, you missed a lot of things dude. You and I both know there's a lot more than that.
you have 17 vs a GoD in Toppo
Yes, it is so inconsistent that 17 did not instantly disintegrate in the face of Toppo. It was made abundantly clear that he had no chance and his barrier was easily broken by it from normal ki blasts. This is a terrible example of bad scaling.
it has stupid commentary/expositions.I mean DB/Z had commentary during fighting, but it wasn't "useless" like in Super. Commentary like say, during the Cell Games, wasn't used as fluff to prolong an episode's length, whereas in Super, its exactly that lol
I can't even take you seriously at this point. There wasn't pointless commentary in Z? Z is literally known for having entire episodes where nothing happens and prolonging episode lengths for no reason.
Even GT to some people gets its respect for at least still feeling like Z even if its delivery has the same problems
GT felt NOTHING like Z whatsoever. It had an entirely different feel and that is part of the reason the reception is so poor. Why might this be? Because it had no involvement from the original series creator who wrote the story depicted in Z.

User avatar
Nokra
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 268
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:39 pm
Location: Transcendent Realm

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Nokra » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:33 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Ripper 99 wrote:It barely has a story, characters don't develop at all,
*Has the most complex villain with nuanced motivations and aspirations with a full-scale story alongside what is by far the most ambitious story in the franchise that actually brings light to Goku's reckless obsession with fighting*

"barely has a story"

Sure man, totally. Also, this is the 3rd installment of the anime and a sequel to a manga of 519 chapters in length. Obviously, the characters aren't going to develop as much. Even then, there's still character development whether you actually decide to see it or not.
. Fanfic ideas like multi-colored Saiyan haired forms and Freeza being revived and nonsensical powerscaling and jumping leagues of power ahead in 6 months to the extent of what Freeza did never happened in Z
The original Super Saiyan is literally re-colored hair because Toriyama was too lazy to fill in Goku's hair. This is hardly new territory or any different. Freeza getting a huge power-up contradicts absolutely nothing because there was never a precedent set for what you should expect from his power gains from training. The only legitimately inconsistent power-up is Future Trunks. The same cannot be said about DBZ. Not even close. You're either confused or being biased because the scaling sure as hell wasn't any better in Z.
The only time when it was iffy was when Goku and Vegeta's Zenkais exponentially grew (numerically I mean, via the scouters' readings in the Saiyan/Namek arcs) and Piccolo's powerups, that's it
Yeah, you missed a lot of things dude. You and I both know there's a lot more than that.
you have 17 vs a GoD in Toppo
Yes, it is so inconsistent that 17 did not instantly disintegrate in the face of Toppo. It was made abundantly clear that he had no chance and his barrier was easily broken by it from normal ki blasts. This is a terrible example of bad scaling.
it has stupid commentary/expositions.I mean DB/Z had commentary during fighting, but it wasn't "useless" like in Super. Commentary like say, during the Cell Games, wasn't used as fluff to prolong an episode's length, whereas in Super, its exactly that lol
I can't even take you seriously at this point. There wasn't pointless commentary in Z? Z is literally known for having entire episodes where nothing happens and prolonging episode lengths for no reason.
Even GT to some people gets its respect for at least still feeling like Z even if its delivery has the same problems
GT felt NOTHING like Z whatsoever. It had an entirely different feel and that is part of the reason the reception is so poor. Why might this be? Because it had no involvement from the original series creator who wrote the story depicted in Z.
I think the guy who said all that stuff about dbs is either extremely blinded by nostalgia or trolling. He's also calling dbs trash while having ssg goku from his fight with caulfila and kale as his avatar which is just...strange.

User avatar
Jackalope89
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 889
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:36 pm

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Jackalope89 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:43 pm

Cue the old "Why so serious?" meme.

But I think a lot of it has to do with nostalgia of only certain scenes in DBZ and the films/specials. A lot of those people only focus on the action, with some STILL being ignorant of the original Dragon Ball run. Which was lighter in tone compared to Z. Super as well, barring the Future Trunks Arc.

User avatar
Ripper 30
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 768
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:16 am
Location: India
Contact:

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Ripper 30 » Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:55 am

PFM18 wrote:
Ripper 99 wrote:It barely has a story, characters don't develop at all,
*Has the most complex villain with nuanced motivations and aspirations with a full-scale story alongside what is by far the most ambitious story in the franchise that actually brings light to Goku's reckless obsession with fighting*

"barely has a story"

Sure man, totally. Also, this is the 3rd installment of the anime and a sequel to a manga of 519 chapters in length. Obviously, the characters aren't going to develop as much. Even then, there's still character development whether you actually decide to see it or not.
Zamasu and Goku Black are cliché villains. don't tell me the idea of an Evil Kaioshin and Evil Goku hasn't been there in fanfiction. their motivation is nonsensical and delusional. these types of villains only work if they have a solid backstory which makes the audience relate with him. what does Kaioshin have? he hates mortals from the start for reasons... we don't know. why he hates them other than "mortals cause destruction"? ... we don't know. just repeating some philosophical lines wouldn't make him "Complex" lmao, even if he is complex that still doesn't mean he's good.

Sensui, Nagato have a similar mindset of reforming the world according to their wishes but the difference is we delve into their past and that helps us understand what they want. what do we see in Zamasu? just seeing two Barbarians fight and losing to a mortal isn't really much of a sensible reason. It was incredibly stupid for Zamasu to be pushed over the edge by a primitive barbaric race like the Babarians, OF COURSE any primitive race without much intelligence is going to have a savage nature. What he SHOULD'VE been pushed over the edge by was a more civilized group of people using violence for hedonistic purposes. The fact that the only conclusion he came to after watching these people for so many years (whose universe has people who are civilized given what Gowasu said) is that they're violent and they need to be wiped out WITHOUT showing said stuff is horrible writing. It doesn't matter whether there are people who desire the extinction of humanity, those aren't people we even think about or whose opinions we values. The reason we don't, is because their rationale makes no sense, they have no merit or actual facts to back up their claim. As soon as someone brings up Hitler, another can bring up Mother Teresa. Who cares whether they exist or not? That still doesn't make their arguments any less dumb. Zamasu doesn't have a point because the people he's talking about are not shown in the case of Universe 10, and the people he presumably learns about from Zuno are such a small iota of the entire mortal population. He's trying to justify his ideology and there is no justification. In the case of all the other villains who came before him and have that similar ideology, they are justified. You don't kill life across all 12 universes because a small sliver of the multiversal population like Freeza and the Saiyans and Cell were terrible people and fought. That's just stupid reasoning no matter whether you want to admit it or not. His whole rhetoric is immediately voided when he gets to the Universe 6 Saiyans or the Universe 7 Namekians. Those are peaceful people who CAN fight, but don't choose to when they don't have to. But no, shitty writing has him oversee that and kill them anyway.
Kaioshin from Universe 7 had more reasons to do what Zamasu did since he LOST his fellow Kaioshins because of Boo's rampage who is a mortal. what does Zamasu lose? he is bragging about the mortal from the start but we don't even see why he has thus pre-established hate.
there is nothing "Nuanced" about Zamasu, his motivations are fucking cliché, as if characters with God complex totally don't exist *cough*Sensui*cough*Light Yagami*cough*. there is nothing ambiguous about it lmao, it's a wannabe-complex fucked up badly written arc with fake tension.
BoG was fine but everything after it was trash like seriously? bringing back freeza and giving Goku and vegeta another chance to beat Freeza, Freeza losing the fight with same stamina issue of Namek due to not being used to new form then a retarded ending with God interfering. so the plot is : Bring back Freeza -> make everyone retarded to not pay attention to someone summoning Shen Long even though previously they always used to rush to the point where someone is summoning it -> make goku and vegeta achieve yet another form with lazy recolor over original one and saying they can tap the power of ssj with God ki, awesome now they have different hair colors to select from (3 to be precise) -> then make them act stupid and vegeta behaving with Goku as if Boo arc never happened and they are in Cell arc -> Goku not killing Freeza straight away and standing there like an idiot despite knowing This is the same Freeza who is bad to the core and Goku after Namek doesn't spare enemies if they are a threat like how he asked Gohan to kill cell before he regenerated -> Whis saves the day, wow excellent plot. U6 Tournament is just bunch of fights and recycled character designs and it serves no purpose at all. Goku Black arc only had potential initially but got worser and eventually turned into crap with awful subplots which served no purpose. over acting and pretentious melodrama. ToP is just a garbage mindless entertainment, nothing more than that.
PFM18 wrote:
Ripper 99 wrote:Fanfic ideas like multi-colored Saiyan haired forms and Freeza being revived and nonsensical powerscaling and jumping leagues of power ahead in 6 months to the extent of what Freeza did never happened in Z
The original Super Saiyan is literally re-colored hair because Toriyama was too lazy to fill in Goku's hair. This is hardly new territory or any different. Freeza getting a huge power-up contradicts absolutely nothing because there was never a precedent set for what you should expect from his power gains from training. The only legitimately inconsistent power-up is Future Trunks. The same cannot be said about DBZ. Not even close. You're either confused or being biased because the scaling sure as hell wasn't any better in Z.
When he did things like not color in Goku's hair to come up with SSj, or intentionally make things simple, those things gave his story a character and made him himself as a person interesting because he only did those things once, and didn't abuse those things like in Super. how many recolors did you see in DBZ? yellow, yellow and yellow is all i see. even the forms SS, SS grade 2,SS grade 3, SS 2, SS3 all had a distinct look to itself. Freeza Power up is issue because it's done for the sake of fanservice. no dbz villain came back again to become the main villain in New arc, Freeza asspulling his way from being weaker than ssj to ssj blue is awful. Ssj God itself is stronger than vegetto super saiyan and ssj blue is even more so it's ridiculous to think that he could get that much stronger in just 4 months training. Even in Cell arc they had to spend 12 Months in RoSaT. oh please don't, there is no only, #17, Gohan, Freeza, kefla, Kale are another example of retarded power scaling. Roshi goes from weaker than 18 year old Goku to on par with Base Goku Post-Goku Black arc. that's insanely stupid. Goku going ssj blue just to do Kamehameha with Kuririn without explaining why is another example of it.
PFM18 wrote:
Ripper 30 wrote:The only time when it was iffy was when Goku and Vegeta's Zenkais exponentially grew (numerically I mean, via the scouters' readings in the Saiyan/Namek arcs) and Piccolo's powerups, that's it
Yeah, you missed a lot of things dude. You and I both know there's a lot more than that.


again, i am not saying Z was perfect but it was definitely not this retarded. for every power up we were given a cool Plot device like RoSaT, Fusion, Potara Fusion, Zenkai Boost and awakening Dormant power.

what does DBS have? a guy who could tank Vegetto Blue's Final Kamehameha but getting sliced by a character who was supposed to be weaker than ssj3 and gathering enough genki from a post-apocalyptic Timeline to beat a guy far above Kid Boo who was killed by the Genkidama of entire Earth in Z, you serious?
Goku getting his ssj God ass beaten by Kefla is so bad.
#17 offscreen getting on par with SSJ Blue.
Gohan getting an Ultimate Form like it's some transformation When elder Kaioshin stated that it was a state of being where all dormant power is in base form.
i can go on... [/quote]
PFM18 wrote:
Ripper 99 wrote:you have 17 vs a GoD in Toppo
Yes, it is so inconsistent that 17 did not instantly disintegrate in the face of Toppo. It was made abundantly clear that he had no chance and his barrier was easily broken by it from normal ki blasts. This is a terrible example of bad scaling.
he should be dead. God of Destruction is like a big feat, you cannot nerf it like that. Android should have got killed by it.
[/quote]
Neither of them. first of all, after 7th Grade i lost interest in DBZ and never really watched more than one arc that too randomly. i was more of a DBZ game fan than show and its only in college that one of my college friend told me about it, i was basically watching DBS and DBZ side by side and the difference was clear. the character development, growth, story, fights and execution was way Better in Z. i kept defending this crap till end of Goku Black arc and i used to watch Hailzeon reviews and then hope that it gets better but episode 66 was the point where i gave up on this crap and just started following it to see how far it goes instead of being interested in plot. ToP is some of the most boring narrative i have ever seen.
Watching Super is like reading a fanfic written by someone who watched the show as a kid and is currently watching the abridged as it airs attempt to write the characters correctly from memory without ever taking the time to actually try to understand the characters. it's Worse than Fan fiction nowdays.

as For pic, thanks for reminding me that i have to change it. i never said dbs doesn't have good stuff. this pic is Takahashi's Goku firing Yusuke's Reigan style ki blast that's why I like it, infact the Takahashi animated Fight in this episode was pretty good but bad outweighed the good in DBS.
I prefer Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, DB/Z/GT Movies, Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball GT in Japanese.
For DBZ Kai and two new Movies I like both Dub and Sub. I Prefer Shunsuke Kikuchi Soundtracks over All other Composers.
My MAL profile : https://myanimelist.net/profile/Ripper_30

User avatar
Nokra
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 268
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:39 pm
Location: Transcendent Realm

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Nokra » Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:25 pm

Ripper 30 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Ripper 99 wrote:It barely has a story, characters don't develop at all,
*Has the most complex villain with nuanced motivations and aspirations with a full-scale story alongside what is by far the most ambitious story in the franchise that actually brings light to Goku's reckless obsession with fighting*

"barely has a story"

Sure man, totally. Also, this is the 3rd installment of the anime and a sequel to a manga of 519 chapters in length. Obviously, the characters aren't going to develop as much. Even then, there's still character development whether you actually decide to see it or not.
Zamasu and Goku Black are cliché villains. don't tell me the idea of an Evil Kaioshin and Evil Goku hasn't been there in fanfiction. their motivation is nonsensical and delusional. these types of villains only work if they have a solid backstory which makes the audience relate with him. what does Kaioshin have? he hates mortals from the start for reasons... we don't know. why he hates them other than "mortals cause destruction"? ... we don't know. just repeating some philosophical lines wouldn't make him "Complex" lmao, even if he is complex that still doesn't mean he's good.

Sensui, Nagato have a similar mindset of reforming the world according to their wishes but the difference is we delve into their past and that helps us understand what they want. what do we see in Zamasu? just seeing two Barbarians fight and losing to a mortal isn't really much of a sensible reason. It was incredibly stupid for Zamasu to be pushed over the edge by a primitive barbaric race like the Babarians, OF COURSE any primitive race without much intelligence is going to have a savage nature. What he SHOULD'VE been pushed over the edge by was a more civilized group of people using violence for hedonistic purposes. The fact that the only conclusion he came to after watching these people for so many years (whose universe has people who are civilized given what Gowasu said) is that they're violent and they need to be wiped out WITHOUT showing said stuff is horrible writing. It doesn't matter whether there are people who desire the extinction of humanity, those aren't people we even think about or whose opinions we values. The reason we don't, is because their rationale makes no sense, they have no merit or actual facts to back up their claim. As soon as someone brings up Hitler, another can bring up Mother Teresa. Who cares whether they exist or not? That still doesn't make their arguments any less dumb. Zamasu doesn't have a point because the people he's talking about are not shown in the case of Universe 10, and the people he presumably learns about from Zuno are such a small iota of the entire mortal population. He's trying to justify his ideology and there is no justification. In the case of all the other villains who came before him and have that similar ideology, they are justified. You don't kill life across all 12 universes because a small sliver of the multiversal population like Freeza and the Saiyans and Cell were terrible people and fought. That's just stupid reasoning no matter whether you want to admit it or not. His whole rhetoric is immediately voided when he gets to the Universe 6 Saiyans or the Universe 7 Namekians. Those are peaceful people who CAN fight, but don't choose to when they don't have to. But no, shitty writing has him oversee that and kill them anyway.
Kaioshin from Universe 7 had more reasons to do what Zamasu did since he LOST his fellow Kaioshins because of Boo's rampage who is a mortal. what does Zamasu lose? he is bragging about the mortal from the start but we don't even see why he has thus pre-established hate.
there is nothing "Nuanced" about Zamasu, his motivations are fucking cliché, as if characters with God complex totally don't exist *cough*Sensui*cough*Light Yagami*cough*. there is nothing ambiguous about it lmao, it's a wannabe-complex fucked up badly written arc with fake tension.
BoG was fine but everything after it was trash like seriously? bringing back freeza and giving Goku and vegeta another chance to beat Freeza, Freeza losing the fight with same stamina issue of Namek due to not being used to new form then a retarded ending with God interfering. so the plot is : Bring back Freeza -> make everyone retarded to not pay attention to someone summoning Shen Long even though previously they always used to rush to the point where someone is summoning it -> make goku and vegeta achieve yet another form with lazy recolor over original one and saying they can tap the power of ssj with God ki, awesome now they have different hair colors to select from (3 to be precise) -> then make them act stupid and vegeta behaving with Goku as if Boo arc never happened and they are in Cell arc -> Goku not killing Freeza straight away and standing there like an idiot despite knowing This is the same Freeza who is bad to the core and Goku after Namek doesn't spare enemies if they are a threat like how he asked Gohan to kill cell before he regenerated -> Whis saves the day, wow excellent plot. U6 Tournament is just bunch of fights and recycled character designs and it serves no purpose at all. Goku Black arc only had potential initially but got worser and eventually turned into crap with awful subplots which served no purpose. over acting and pretentious melodrama. ToP is just a garbage mindless entertainment, nothing more than that.
PFM18 wrote:
Ripper 99 wrote:Fanfic ideas like multi-colored Saiyan haired forms and Freeza being revived and nonsensical powerscaling and jumping leagues of power ahead in 6 months to the extent of what Freeza did never happened in Z
The original Super Saiyan is literally re-colored hair because Toriyama was too lazy to fill in Goku's hair. This is hardly new territory or any different. Freeza getting a huge power-up contradicts absolutely nothing because there was never a precedent set for what you should expect from his power gains from training. The only legitimately inconsistent power-up is Future Trunks. The same cannot be said about DBZ. Not even close. You're either confused or being biased because the scaling sure as hell wasn't any better in Z.
When he did things like not color in Goku's hair to come up with SSj, or intentionally make things simple, those things gave his story a character and made him himself as a person interesting because he only did those things once, and didn't abuse those things like in Super. how many recolors did you see in DBZ? yellow, yellow and yellow is all i see. even the forms SS, SS grade 2,SS grade 3, SS 2, SS3 all had a distinct look to itself. Freeza Power up is issue because it's done for the sake of fanservice. no dbz villain came back again to become the main villain in New arc, Freeza asspulling his way from being weaker than ssj to ssj blue is awful. Ssj God itself is stronger than vegetto super saiyan and ssj blue is even more so it's ridiculous to think that he could get that much stronger in just 4 months training. Even in Cell arc they had to spend 12 Months in RoSaT. oh please don't, there is no only, #17, Gohan, Freeza, kefla, Kale are another example of retarded power scaling. Roshi goes from weaker than 18 year old Goku to on par with Base Goku Post-Goku Black arc. that's insanely stupid. Goku going ssj blue just to do Kamehameha with Kuririn without explaining why is another example of it.
PFM18 wrote:
Ripper 30 wrote:The only time when it was iffy was when Goku and Vegeta's Zenkais exponentially grew (numerically I mean, via the scouters' readings in the Saiyan/Namek arcs) and Piccolo's powerups, that's it
Yeah, you missed a lot of things dude. You and I both know there's a lot more than that.


again, i am not saying Z was perfect but it was definitely not this retarded. for every power up we were given a cool Plot device like RoSaT, Fusion, Potara Fusion, Zenkai Boost and awakening Dormant power.

what does DBS have? a guy who could tank Vegetto Blue's Final Kamehameha but getting sliced by a character who was supposed to be weaker than ssj3 and gathering enough genki from a post-apocalyptic Timeline to beat a guy far above Kid Boo who was killed by the Genkidama of entire Earth in Z, you serious?
Goku getting his ssj God ass beaten by Kefla is so bad.
#17 offscreen getting on par with SSJ Blue.
Gohan getting an Ultimate Form like it's some transformation When elder Kaioshin stated that it was a state of being where all dormant power is in base form.
i can go on...

PFM18 wrote:
Ripper 99 wrote:you have 17 vs a GoD in Toppo
Yes, it is so inconsistent that 17 did not instantly disintegrate in the face of Toppo. It was made abundantly clear that he had no chance and his barrier was easily broken by it from normal ki blasts. This is a terrible example of bad scaling.
he should be dead. God of Destruction is like a big feat, you cannot nerf it like that. Android should have got killed by it.
[/quote]
Neither of them. first of all, after 7th Grade i lost interest in DBZ and never really watched more than one arc that too randomly. i was more of a DBZ game fan than show and its only in college that one of my college friend told me about it, i was basically watching DBS and DBZ side by side and the difference was clear. the character development, growth, story, fights and execution was way Better in Z. i kept defending this crap till end of Goku Black arc and i used to watch Hailzeon reviews and then hope that it gets better but episode 66 was the point where i gave up on this crap and just started following it to see how far it goes instead of being interested in plot. ToP is some of the most boring narrative i have ever seen.
Watching Super is like reading a fanfic written by someone who watched the show as a kid and is currently watching the abridged as it airs attempt to write the characters correctly from memory without ever taking the time to actually try to understand the characters. it's Worse than Fan fiction nowdays.

as For pic, thanks for reminding me that i have to change it. i never said dbs doesn't have good stuff. this pic is Takahashi's Goku firing Yusuke's Reigan style ki blast that's why I like it, infact the Takahashi animated Fight in this episode was pretty good but bad outweighed the good in DBS.[/quote]
I'm guessing you are one of those people who watched dbs every Saturday/Sunday, complained and said you would drop it, only to come back and watch it again next week to do it again wash, rinse, repeat?

User avatar
Ripper 30
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 768
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:16 am
Location: India
Contact:

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Ripper 30 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:11 am

Nokra wrote: I'm guessing you are one of those people who watched dbs every Saturday/Sunday, complained and said you would drop it, only to come back and watch it again next week to do it again wash, rinse, repeat?
again nope, i was trying to enjoy the good Parts and never really complained that much and if it's Dragon Ball then i won't drop it because i want to stay updated with the franchise no matter how bad it gets. but once the Tournament started i realized how garbage the show is example is Episode 100 where female Broli rekts Goku because of fanservice nothing else, same Movie 8 moves, same quotes, it was crap .
I prefer Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, DB/Z/GT Movies, Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball GT in Japanese.
For DBZ Kai and two new Movies I like both Dub and Sub. I Prefer Shunsuke Kikuchi Soundtracks over All other Composers.
My MAL profile : https://myanimelist.net/profile/Ripper_30

User avatar
Nokra
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 268
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:39 pm
Location: Transcendent Realm

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Nokra » Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:30 am

Ripper 30 wrote:
Nokra wrote: I'm guessing you are one of those people who watched dbs every Saturday/Sunday, complained and said you would drop it, only to come back and watch it again next week to do it again wash, rinse, repeat?
again nope, i was trying to enjoy the good Parts and never really complained that much and if it's Dragon Ball then i won't drop it because i want to stay updated with the franchise no matter how bad it gets. but once the Tournament started i realized how garbage the show is example is Episode 100 where female Broli rekts Goku because of fanservice nothing else, same Movie 8 moves, same quotes, it was crap .
I figured you use the "its Dragonball" excuse to justify sticking around just to complain about a show you apparently think is "garbage". If you really hated the show you'd probably stop watching it entirely but clearly something is keeping you coming back. It being "Dragonball" can't be the only thing keeping you around unless you really like torturing yourself by watching something you supposedly hate? I'm truly curious. Let me get into the mind of a typical dbs hater and help me to understand how people who share your feelings about the show can hate it yet keep watching despite thinking it's bad?

User avatar
SupremeKai25
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1264
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:21 am

List of Dragon Ball villains who had a God complex and weren't just evil for the sake of destruction/murder:

- Zamasu
- ???

See now why Zamasu is a unique and original villain in Dragon Ball? Obviously his concept is overused in general, compare him to some of the villains from other Anime, and he is very generic and shallow. But for a Dragon Ball villain, his motivations are somewhat relatable for once (since everyone wants to achieve multiversal peace), and his character arc was astonishing, because every Dragon Ball villain is presented to us as an evil scumbag, but Zamasu was the first who, at the beginning, was not evil, he was pure, he had a pure heart. But then we saw him degenerate slowly but gradually into a bloodthirsty lunatic, and then he devolved into the same barbaric beast as the Babarians that he so fervently despised.

Plus obviously there is his whole design as Fused Zamasu which is very interesting and reminds a lot of people of Final Fantasy. Fused Zamasu is the only Final Fantasy-esque villain in Dragon Ball, another point in favour of his originality in Dragon Ball.
"Light of Divine Justice! Strike at me now! A cowering God who appeases evil can never prevail!"

Zamasu/Fused Zamasu fan.

User avatar
Cetra
I Live Here
Posts: 3856
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:01 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Cetra » Sun Oct 14, 2018 12:03 pm

Not fully correct. Vayne Novus I'm ff12 looks a lot like Broly from the body and clothes. The head not really. Zamasu ja so significant because after Lavos from Chrono Trigger in his First Form that ja straight Cell, head resemblances to Square original villains like Sephiroth and Xehanort are visible.
"Citation needed."
"too lazy

feel free to take it with grain of salt or discredit me altogether, I'm not losing any sleep"

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10529
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Doctor. » Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:48 pm

Kuwabara, I'm working on a response to your post, but I've been a bit short on time.
SupremeKai25 wrote: because every Dragon Ball villain is presented to us as an evil scumbag
Tenshinhan, Androids 16, 17 and 18, Fat Boo, Majin Vegeta.

User avatar
SupremeKai25
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1264
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:45 pm

Doctor. wrote:Kuwabara, I'm working on a response to your post, but I've been a bit short on time.
SupremeKai25 wrote: because every Dragon Ball villain is presented to us as an evil scumbag
Tenshinhan, Androids 16, 17 and 18, Fat Boo, Majin Vegeta.
Not really, all of them are presented as evil monsters, especially the Androids and Fat Buu who are described by various characters as extremely dangerous and cruel individuals. Maybe Tenshinhan wasn't downright evil at first, but he certainly wasn't introduced in a good light, since he was very cold-hearted and ruthless, especially in his fight against Yamcha.

Zamasu is different though. When Whis describes him, he remarks how he is a very powerful fighter and a prodigy, so much so that he was hand-picked to become the next Supreme Kai of Universe 10, and Supreme Kais are benevolent and generous deities. In the first scene where Zamasu appears, his teacher Gowasu congratulates him for having a pure heart, and Zamasu not only is very polite and respectful, but has a gentle smile on his face.
"Light of Divine Justice! Strike at me now! A cowering God who appeases evil can never prevail!"

Zamasu/Fused Zamasu fan.

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10529
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Doctor. » Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:03 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Kuwabara, I'm working on a response to your post, but I've been a bit short on time.
SupremeKai25 wrote: because every Dragon Ball villain is presented to us as an evil scumbag
Tenshinhan, Androids 16, 17 and 18, Fat Boo, Majin Vegeta.
Not really, all of them are presented as evil monsters, especially the Androids and Fat Buu who are described by various characters as extremely dangerous and cruel individuals. Maybe Tenshinhan wasn't downright evil at first, but he certainly wasn't introduced in a good light, since he was very cold-hearted and ruthless, especially in his fight against Yamcha.

Zamasu is different though. When Whis describes him, he remarks how he is a very powerful fighter and a prodigy, so much so that he was hand-picked to become the next Supreme Kai of Universe 10, and Supreme Kais are benevolent and generous deities. In the first scene where Zamasu appears, his teacher Gowasu congratulates him for having a pure heart, and Zamasu not only is very polite and respectful, but has a gentle smile on his face.
Black appears first and he's presented as a ruthless, evil monster from the start. Just because we got to learn his more nuanced motivations later through present Zamasu doesn't mean it's an entirely new kind of villain in the franchise; Majin Vegeta did the same thing.

zarmack
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 852
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:22 am

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by zarmack » Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:30 pm

Because people have standards and don't won't their intelligence insulted.

User avatar
Ripper 30
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 768
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:16 am
Location: India
Contact:

Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Ripper 30 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:48 pm

Doctor. wrote:
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Kuwabara, I'm working on a response to your post, but I've been a bit short on time.



Tenshinhan, Androids 16, 17 and 18, Fat Boo, Majin Vegeta.
Not really, all of them are presented as evil monsters, especially the Androids and Fat Buu who are described by various characters as extremely dangerous and cruel individuals. Maybe Tenshinhan wasn't downright evil at first, but he certainly wasn't introduced in a good light, since he was very cold-hearted and ruthless, especially in his fight against Yamcha.

Zamasu is different though. When Whis describes him, he remarks how he is a very powerful fighter and a prodigy, so much so that he was hand-picked to become the next Supreme Kai of Universe 10, and Supreme Kais are benevolent and generous deities. In the first scene where Zamasu appears, his teacher Gowasu congratulates him for having a pure heart, and Zamasu not only is very polite and respectful, but has a gentle smile on his face.
Black appears first and he's presented as a ruthless, evil monster from the start. Just because we got to learn his more nuanced motivations later through present Zamasu doesn't mean it's an entirely new kind of villain in the franchise; Majin Vegeta did the same thing.
also the claim that Z villains have no reason for doing what they did is retarded imo. Freeza had this paranoia of Saiyans one day destroying him after getting stronger so he killed them all to prevent any chance of an attack like that to take place. Cell is fulfilling his life long purpose of achieving Perfection and his primary motivation is to test his power. Boo is embodiment of evil with irrational nature so it makes sense.
Zamasu's an idiotic character who doesn't even ask Zuno for other important things but only switching bodies with Goku then instead of wishing everyone to die he puts himself in more risk by trying to eliminate all humans. the fact is we don't see why Zamasu had this pre-established hate for mortals, what fueled him to start arguing over it? his iota of judging is retarded. he might as well see two dogs fighting and destroy the universe based on that.
I prefer Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, DB/Z/GT Movies, Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball GT in Japanese.
For DBZ Kai and two new Movies I like both Dub and Sub. I Prefer Shunsuke Kikuchi Soundtracks over All other Composers.
My MAL profile : https://myanimelist.net/profile/Ripper_30

Post Reply