So Son Goku was actually sent from Planet Vegeta as a kid, not as a baby?
Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff
- JohnnyCashKami
- Temporarily Banned
- Posts: 1597
- Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:16 pm
So Son Goku was actually sent from Planet Vegeta as a kid, not as a baby?
The newest trailer of Super Broly's movie shows that Goku was shipped out as a child rather than a baby and so, what happens to Grandpa Gohan and the whole story of Son Goku growing up as a monkey boy and facing the Pilaf Gang, meeting Kuririn, facing Piccolo Daimao and all that?
Back in Classic Dragon Ball days, Super Saiyan 3 and 4 were the most powerful forms for Goku and that was it, but now it's Super Saiyan Blue (or the Mastered UI thingy) until Toriyama/TOEI decide to come up with another, stronger evolution.
I don't care much about canon and non-canon but good grief, it isn't much to ask for some consistency.
Back in Classic Dragon Ball days, Super Saiyan 3 and 4 were the most powerful forms for Goku and that was it, but now it's Super Saiyan Blue (or the Mastered UI thingy) until Toriyama/TOEI decide to come up with another, stronger evolution.
I don't care much about canon and non-canon but good grief, it isn't much to ask for some consistency.
Re: So Son Goku was actually sent from Planet Vegeta as a kid, not as a baby?
The only time we seen Goku get sent as a baby was in the Bardock special and in non-canon movies. It was never shown how old Goku was when he was sent off. It was actually revealed that Goku was a kid when he was went off back in Dragon Ball Minus, a canon story that Toriyama himself wrote and drawed.
- NintendoBlaze53
- Regular
- Posts: 567
- Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:24 am
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
Re: So Son Goku was actually sent from Planet Vegeta as a kid, not as a baby?
Dragon Ball has turned into a story the same degree as American comic books. There is no one defined canon and there doesn't need to be. When your franchise is almost 35 years old, it's common for certain events to be rewritten or redone to meet new narrative needs. This has happened before in Dragon Ball too with the contradictions created by fillers in the anime and the movies.
"You should enjoy the little detours. To the fullest. Because that's where you'll find the things more important than what you want." -Ging Freecss
If you care about opinionated/critical analysis and reviews of anime, manga and gaming products, feel free to check out my website. https://otakustance.wordpress.com/
If you care about opinionated/critical analysis and reviews of anime, manga and gaming products, feel free to check out my website. https://otakustance.wordpress.com/
- ABED
- Namekian Warrior
- Posts: 20276
- Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
- Location: Skippack, PA
- Contact:
Re: So Son Goku was actually sent from Planet Vegeta as a kid, not as a baby?
But it wasn't meant to be like American comic books which started out as mostly one off stories. DB was one story from beginning to end.NintendoBlaze53 wrote:Dragon Ball has turned into a story the same degree as American comic books. There is no one defined canon and there doesn't need to be. When your franchise is almost 35 years old, it's common for certain events to be rewritten or redone to meet new narrative needs. This has happened before in Dragon Ball too with the contradictions created by fillers in the anime and the movies.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
- NintendoBlaze53
- Regular
- Posts: 567
- Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:24 am
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
Re: So Son Goku was actually sent from Planet Vegeta as a kid, not as a baby?
And Star Wars was originally one film, just because it was originally one story doesn't mean over time it hasn't grown into something more. For better or worse.ABED wrote:But it wasn't meant to be like American comic books which started out as mostly one off stories. DB was one story from beginning to end.NintendoBlaze53 wrote:Dragon Ball has turned into a story the same degree as American comic books. There is no one defined canon and there doesn't need to be. When your franchise is almost 35 years old, it's common for certain events to be rewritten or redone to meet new narrative needs. This has happened before in Dragon Ball too with the contradictions created by fillers in the anime and the movies.
"You should enjoy the little detours. To the fullest. Because that's where you'll find the things more important than what you want." -Ging Freecss
If you care about opinionated/critical analysis and reviews of anime, manga and gaming products, feel free to check out my website. https://otakustance.wordpress.com/
If you care about opinionated/critical analysis and reviews of anime, manga and gaming products, feel free to check out my website. https://otakustance.wordpress.com/
-
- I Live Here
- Posts: 3540
- Joined: Thu May 21, 2015 9:09 am
- Location: Sligo, Ireland
Re: So Son Goku was actually sent from Planet Vegeta as a kid, not as a baby?
Toriyama is basically the Japanese George Lucas, whenever he's unsatisfied with any aspect of the story he originally wrote he will go back and change it. Although he hasn't sold the franchise to anyone so unfortunately this probably won't be the last time something like this happens.
Do you have any info about international non-English broadcasts about the Dragon Ball anime or manga translations/editions? Please message me. Researching for a future book with Dragon Ball scholar Derek Padula
- GT_Goten10
- Beyond Newbie
- Posts: 266
- Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:46 pm
- Location: Germany
Re: So Son Goku was actually sent from Planet Vegeta as a kid, not as a baby?
I would say in the The new Continuity(DB Minus->DBS..) he was sent as a Kid in the Classic Continuity(Bardock Special..) he was sent as a Baby
GT Fighter
- ABED
- Namekian Warrior
- Posts: 20276
- Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
- Location: Skippack, PA
- Contact:
Re: So Son Goku was actually sent from Planet Vegeta as a kid, not as a baby?
Yes, it was originally just one script but by the time it was finished, he had already decided it would be a trilogy.NintendoBlaze53 wrote:And Star Wars was originally one film, just because it was originally one story doesn't mean over time it hasn't grown into something more. For better or worse.ABED wrote:But it wasn't meant to be like American comic books which started out as mostly one off stories. DB was one story from beginning to end.NintendoBlaze53 wrote:Dragon Ball has turned into a story the same degree as American comic books. There is no one defined canon and there doesn't need to be. When your franchise is almost 35 years old, it's common for certain events to be rewritten or redone to meet new narrative needs. This has happened before in Dragon Ball too with the contradictions created by fillers in the anime and the movies.
I understand that things change, but we're talking about something that was one single story for DECADES and was meant to be that and is now changed over and over to make square pegs fit in round holes. American comic books are different in that they were designed to be malleable. They always had a beginning and an infinite middle.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
- The Tori-bot
- I Live Here
- Posts: 3216
- Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 12:00 pm
- Location: Penguin Village
- Contact:
Re: So Son Goku was actually sent from Planet Vegeta as a kid, not as a baby?
You have to think of it from Toriyama's perspective. He hasn't "changed" or "rewritten" anything. For all we know, he always intended for Goku to be this age and the anime peeps interpreted it differently. See also: the depiction of Hell in Resurrection 'F' vs. the rest of the anime. Indeed, when Roshi is talking about Gohan finding Goku in the mountains, the word he uses is "child" rather than "baby". And really, a young warrior child having a mission to wipe out a species makes more sense than a newborn.
One has to watch this movie with regard to the manga only for it to make sense, because that's what Toriyama's doing. He's not beholden to some other writer's version of his main character's origin (regardless of how much he's said he likes it). We already saw this version in Dragon Ball Minus - it's not a new development. We're simply seeing another divergence between "Toriyama-continuity" and "Toei-continuity" play out on screen. Just like Roshi's story of the Dragon Balls' origin or Dr. Frappe: "Our Lord Creator came up with something else, so we have no choice but to adapt that and quietly ignore what we came up with by ourselves."
The Lucas comparison is a good one - the Expanded Universe was not his story or under his control, so he had no problems overwriting whatever he wanted when creating new material. And really, why should he? It's not his problem that some people treat these ancillary things like immutable stone tablets handed down by Moses. If somebody wrote an origin story for my protagonist as a tie-in novel or something, you'd better believe I'd ignore the shit out of it if I wanted to tell that story myself, even if it was good - because chances are it never lined up with my notions of what that story would be anyway.
One has to watch this movie with regard to the manga only for it to make sense, because that's what Toriyama's doing. He's not beholden to some other writer's version of his main character's origin (regardless of how much he's said he likes it). We already saw this version in Dragon Ball Minus - it's not a new development. We're simply seeing another divergence between "Toriyama-continuity" and "Toei-continuity" play out on screen. Just like Roshi's story of the Dragon Balls' origin or Dr. Frappe: "Our Lord Creator came up with something else, so we have no choice but to adapt that and quietly ignore what we came up with by ourselves."
The Lucas comparison is a good one - the Expanded Universe was not his story or under his control, so he had no problems overwriting whatever he wanted when creating new material. And really, why should he? It's not his problem that some people treat these ancillary things like immutable stone tablets handed down by Moses. If somebody wrote an origin story for my protagonist as a tie-in novel or something, you'd better believe I'd ignore the shit out of it if I wanted to tell that story myself, even if it was good - because chances are it never lined up with my notions of what that story would be anyway.
New to the forum? Just want to know when you'll hit your next posting rank? Ever wondered why some users have special titles, and what they mean? The answers to all these questions and more are waiting for you in the Kanzenshuu Member Hierarchy Guide!!
"Of all the things to worry about... the Wookiee has no pants." -- Mark Hamill
"Of all the things to worry about... the Wookiee has no pants." -- Mark Hamill
Herms wrote:Really, you could translate either title either way and nobody would care. But God would know.
- ABED
- Namekian Warrior
- Posts: 20276
- Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
- Location: Skippack, PA
- Contact:
Re: So Son Goku was actually sent from Planet Vegeta as a kid, not as a baby?
It's not about overwriting the expanded universe, it's things like Greedo shooting first and Hayden Christensen inserted into Return of the Jedi.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
Re: So Son Goku was actually sent from Planet Vegeta as a kid, not as a baby?
See, the difference is, Star Wars gets respect from people and Dragon Ball doesn't, on any level whatsoever so Toriyama can out Lucas, Lucas (which he's already done by a country mile) and get away with it.ABED wrote:It's not about overwriting the expanded universe, it's things like Greedo shooting first and Hayden Christensen inserted into Return of the Jedi.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
- The Tori-bot
- I Live Here
- Posts: 3216
- Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 12:00 pm
- Location: Penguin Village
- Contact:
Re: So Son Goku was actually sent from Planet Vegeta as a kid, not as a baby?
Nothing to do with my point. Besides, Toriyama hasn't done anything like that. The closest he's come is rewriting the ending slightly for the kanzenban, and nobody freaked out over that.ABED wrote:It's not about overwriting the expanded universe, it's things like Greedo shooting first and Hayden Christensen inserted into Return of the Jedi.
New to the forum? Just want to know when you'll hit your next posting rank? Ever wondered why some users have special titles, and what they mean? The answers to all these questions and more are waiting for you in the Kanzenshuu Member Hierarchy Guide!!
"Of all the things to worry about... the Wookiee has no pants." -- Mark Hamill
"Of all the things to worry about... the Wookiee has no pants." -- Mark Hamill
Herms wrote:Really, you could translate either title either way and nobody would care. But God would know.
- Kunzait_83
- I Live Here
- Posts: 2974
- Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 5:19 pm
Re: So Son Goku was actually sent from Planet Vegeta as a kid, not as a baby?
How do you figure Toriyama's outdone Lucas? Is the original DBZ rendered an out of print relic with Kai (which Toriyama certainly had no involvement in to begin with) having "replaced" it in availability? Are the original 43 volume Tankobon's rendered unpurchaseable with only the Kanzenban's available? Are the Kanzenban's themselves really THAT heavily altered, aside from the last couple pages of the last volume (and small errors like the #17 & #18/#19 & #20 mention from Future Trunks being fixed)?ekrolo2 wrote:See, the difference is, Star Wars gets respect from people and Dragon Ball doesn't, on any level whatsoever so Toriyama can out Lucas, Lucas (which he's already done by a country mile) and get away with it.
I mean really, what exactly HAS Toriyama done since DB's original end that has "outdone" Lucas "by a country mile" on things like making the original versions of the original SW trilogy as unavailable as he possibly can, heavily re-editing, digitally altering, tweaking dialogue, and in some instances outright re-scoring, various scenes?
I think that Dragon Ball Minus is out and out garbage and easily the single worst thing bar none to ever come from Toriyama's direct pen: that having been said though, the original Batdock special, as far as we know, isn't going anywhere. Dragon Ball Super itself is "meh" at best; at the end of the day though, all it is basically is an alternative to GT. The original run of the series is still ultimately the original run of the series, and it ain't going ANYPLACE.
The original version of DBZ is still out there, same as ever (though FUNimation REALLY should've made sure to make the Dragon Box masters their new standard for re-releases going forward, but that's neither here nor there). The Kanzenban are hardly any different AT ALL from the old Tankobons, apart from those last couple pages in the final volume: and even then, you can still more than easily get the old Tankobon's pretty much anywhere and everywhere with the old ending intact.
Toriyama as I see it is mainly guilty of two things here ultimately:
1) Completely and utterly dropping the ball with Dragon Ball Minus, which is just outright worthless, lazy dogshit by any objective standpoint that is demonstrably LEAGUES beneath his ability as an artist (not to mention a MASSIVE, colossal downgrade from Toei's own original stab at Bardock lo those many years ago).
And 2) half-assing it on his involvement in Super, as he's basically only MARGINALLY more involved in it ultimately than he was in GT. Movie scripting aside, people otherwise WILDLY over-embellish what he actually contributes to Super at the end of the day (effectively cocktail napkin bullet points on the bare-most skeleton of the arc's trajectory and some character designs): its hardly "his" series at the end of the day and is WAY more a Toei product than anything else overall.
I personally think it was kinda dumb of him to do a "one foot in, one foot out" on his involvement in Super: if he REALLY isn't feeling a "proper" return to the series and just wants to enjoy his retirement, he should've just done that and left Super entirely up to Toei same as he did with GT. But if he REALLY was THAT fumed over Evolution and whatnot and wanted to really start caring about DB once again, then he probably should've bitten the bullet and just did a proper manga once again.
As it stands he tried to have his cake and eat it too: "return" to Dragon Ball creatively, while trying to at the same time still be effectively "retired" simultaneously. And yeah, I more than respect the guy as an artist as much as anyone else here, and god knows I'm 100,000% in the camp of "If the guy doesn't want to do Dragon Ball anymore, its MORE than his right to just enjoy his retirement and leave the series finished and dormant: he doesn't owe the fanbase more of the series no matter how much they bitch and plead for it, especially since he dumped 11 years worth of his blood, sweat, and tears into it WEEKLY without missing a fucking beat".
But that said, I also think that if you're gonna do something, ANYTHING, no matter WHAT it is, ESPECIALLY if its something that is supposed to be important to you and a part of your life's work: don't EVER just do it by half. Put EVERYTHING you have into it, and if you can't, then just leave it alone. Toriyama tried to do Super by half, and the results are what they are in large part because of it (that and corporate greed over on Toei's end).
Other than those two things though: citing Toriyama as guilty of being a "George Lucas" to DB at this stage in the game is still a MASSIVE overstatement of where things currently stand right now. Dragon Ball's original run has yet to be retroactively tampered with any in some insane, pathological attempt at rewriting history: we're not seeing DBZ dvd's and Tankobon's being ripped off the shelves and thrust into out of print obscurity whilst vastly altered "reversionings" are being shoveled into their place and forced down everyone's throats whether they want them or not.
Kai's a thing, yeah, and I can't stand it myself either: it hasn't REPLACED DBZ though. Its being sold ALONGSIDE it as an "alternative" with the original Z anime still more than amply available to anyone who wants it (and plenty still do). Which is in NO way the same thing as what Lucas ultimately did with the original SW trilogy (that and Kai isn't even something that's creatively on Toriyama's hands anyway: that one's 100% Toei).
If that ever DOES happen, should DB ever become the anime/manga equivalent to what ended up ultimately happening with Star Wars, I'll be as rightly pissed as anyone else, and I'll more than happily agree that yeah, Toriyama went full blown George Lucas on his old baby here. But I just don't see how that comparison is in any way merited at this juncture. It may WELL be somewhere down the line: and I sure as hell hope we never get there, cause that'd be a REAL terrible fucking shame.
But we're NOT there yet, and so far all we have here is a half-assed, lazy, nostalgia-pandering revival (that still has a couple of genuine bright spots here or there, fleeting and minor as they are) that you can ultimately completely dismiss and stick with the original run of the series should you so choose to (and as I myself choose to). And as bad of a look as that is on Toriyama (and I 100% make no excuses or apologies for him on that score), it's still a LOOOONG ways away from George Lucas territory.
http://80s90sdragonballart.tumblr.com/
Kunzait's Wuxia Thread
Kunzait's Wuxia Thread
Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.
- KBABZ
- Born 'n Bred Here
- Posts: 5180
- Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:38 pm
- Location: The tallest tower in West City
Re: So Son Goku was actually sent from Planet Vegeta as a kid, not as a baby?
Personally I don't mind the DB- take with how Bardock sent him away long before the destruction of the planet, but I do feel it's odd to have aged Goku up to the point where he was wearing Saiyan armor. Where the heck did that armor go? Did Dr. Briefs just not even mention it at all when he make Goku's ship for the trip to Namek? Did Grandpa Gohan not even take note of it or keep it or anything? How long was the gap between Gohan finding Goku and the start of Dragon Ball? With an aged up Goku, there's now considerably less time for him to have his accident and become a nice guy and form a strong emotional bond to Gohan before accidentally killing him.
Re: So Son Goku was actually sent from Planet Vegeta as a kid, not as a baby?
I think Toriyama crossed the line with Minus well into Lucas territory. Not only did he get rid of a lot of what makes Goku great as a character for an ill conceived attempt to flesh out his backstory but heavily diminished the Saiyan arc by extension.Kunzait_83 wrote:How do you figure Toriyama's outdone Lucas? Is the original DBZ rendered an out of print relic with Kai (which Toriyama certainly had no involvement in to begin with) having "replaced" it in availability? Are the original 43 volume Tankobon's rendered unpurchaseable with only the Kanzenban's available? Are the Kanzenban's themselves really THAT heavily altered, aside from the last couple pages of the last volume (and small errors like the #17 & #18/#19 & #20 mention from Future Trunks being fixed)?ekrolo2 wrote:See, the difference is, Star Wars gets respect from people and Dragon Ball doesn't, on any level whatsoever so Toriyama can out Lucas, Lucas (which he's already done by a country mile) and get away with it.
I mean really, what exactly HAS Toriyama done since DB's original end that has "outdone" Lucas "by a country mile" on things like making the original versions of the original SW trilogy as unavailable as he possibly can, heavily re-editing, digitally altering, tweaking dialogue, and in some instances outright re-scoring, various scenes?
I think that Dragon Ball Minus is out and out garbage and easily the single worst thing bar none to ever come from Toriyama's direct pen: that having been said though, the original Batdock special, as far as we know, isn't going anywhere. Dragon Ball Super itself is "meh" at best; at the end of the day though, all it is basically is an alternative to GT. The original run of the series is still ultimately the original run of the series, and it ain't going ANYPLACE.
The original version of DBZ is still out there, same as ever (though FUNimation REALLY should've made sure to make the Dragon Box masters their new standard for re-releases going forward, but that's neither here nor there). The Kanzenban are hardly any different AT ALL from the old Tankobons, apart from those last couple pages in the final volume: and even then, you can still more than easily get the old Tankobon's pretty much anywhere and everywhere with the old ending intact.
Toriyama as I see it is mainly guilty of two things here ultimately:
1) Completely and utterly dropping the ball with Dragon Ball Minus, which is just outright worthless, lazy dogshit by any objective standpoint that is demonstrably LEAGUES beneath his ability as an artist (not to mention a MASSIVE, colossal downgrade from Toei's own original stab at Bardock lo those many years ago).
And 2) half-assing it on his involvement in Super, as he's basically only MARGINALLY more involved in it ultimately than he was in GT. Movie scripting aside, people otherwise WILDLY over-embellish what he actually contributes to Super at the end of the day (effectively cocktail napkin bullet points on the bare-most skeleton of the arc's trajectory and some character designs): its hardly "his" series at the end of the day and is WAY more a Toei product than anything else overall.
I personally think it was kinda dumb of him to do a "one foot in, one foot out" on his involvement in Super: if he REALLY isn't feeling a "proper" return to the series and just wants to enjoy his retirement, he should've just done that and left Super entirely up to Toei same as he did with GT. But if he REALLY was THAT fumed over Evolution and whatnot and wanted to really start caring about DB once again, then he probably should've bitten the bullet and just did a proper manga once again.
As it stands he tried to have his cake and eat it too: "return" to Dragon Ball creatively, while trying to at the same time still be effectively "retired" simultaneously. And yeah, I more than respect the guy as an artist as much as anyone else here, and god knows I'm 100,000% in the camp of "If the guy doesn't want to do Dragon Ball anymore, its MORE than his right to just enjoy his retirement and leave the series finished and dormant: he doesn't owe the fanbase more of the series no matter how much they bitch and plead for it, especially since he dumped 11 years worth of his blood, sweat, and tears into it WEEKLY without missing a fucking beat".
But that said, I also think that if you're gonna do something, ANYTHING, no matter WHAT it is, ESPECIALLY if its something that is supposed to be important to you and a part of your life's work: don't EVER just do it by half. Put EVERYTHING you have into it, and if you can't, then just leave it alone. Toriyama tried to do Super by half, and the results are what they are in large part because of it (that and corporate greed over on Toei's end).
Other than those two things though: citing Toriyama as guilty of being a "George Lucas" to DB at this stage in the game is still a MASSIVE overstatement of where things currently stand right now. Dragon Ball's original run has yet to be retroactively tampered with any in some insane, pathological attempt at rewriting history: we're not seeing DBZ dvd's and Tankobon's being ripped off the shelves and thrust into out of print obscurity whilst vastly altered "reversionings" are being shoveled into their place and forced down everyone's throats whether they want them or not.
Kai's a thing, yeah, and I can't stand it myself either: it hasn't REPLACED DBZ though. Its being sold ALONGSIDE it as an "alternative" with the original Z anime still more than amply available to anyone who wants it (and plenty still do). Which is in NO way the same thing as what Lucas ultimately did with the original SW trilogy (that and Kai isn't even something that's creatively on Toriyama's hands anyway: that one's 100% Toei).
If that ever DOES happen, should DB ever become the anime/manga equivalent to what ended up ultimately happening with Star Wars, I'll be as rightly pissed as anyone else, and I'll more than happily agree that yeah, Toriyama went full blown George Lucas on his old baby here. But I just don't see how that comparison is in any way merited at this juncture. It may WELL be somewhere down the line: and I sure as hell hope we never get there, cause that'd be a REAL terrible fucking shame.
But we're NOT there yet, and so far all we have here is a half-assed, lazy, nostalgia-pandering revival (that still has a couple of genuine bright spots here or there, fleeting and minor as they are) that you can ultimately completely dismiss and stick with the original run of the series should you so choose to (and as I myself choose to). And as bad of a look as that is on Toriyama (and I 100% make no excuses or apologies for him on that score), it's still a LOOOONG ways away from George Lucas territory.
Goku's character, completely ignoring the Bardock special, was two things: a worthless cast off who nobody cared about (even Bardock in the special only does as a means to get revenge on Freeza) who was deemed trash from birth and sent off to destroy the planet Earth. Then, thanks to lots of lucky breaks and his own actions along with the people around him, Goku helps save the planet and people he was supposed to destroy. Goku of course doesn't fight to save the planet, that's never his main goal, he wants to test himself by fighting greater opponents but it is something he accomplishes nonetheless as a byproduct OF beating the strong opponents he's currently facing.
Through all this, he proves the Saiyan society wrong for thinking of him as worthless trash by training with great martial arts masters and proceeding to beat the crap out of Prince Vegeta, the representation of that elitist society. Now, once again, Goku doesn't fight Vegeta to prove this point but much like how he saves the world as a happy byproduct, he too proves Vegeta and all the Saiyans wrong. He becomes way better than absolutely all of them.
Now, thanks to Minus, the irony of saving the planet and people he was supposed to destroy? Gone, his status as a worthless cast off nobody cared about? Gone. Goku is now the special love child of a unique Saiyan relationship unlike any other with loving parents who love him and suck each others dicks off because they're oh so special and in love. That is so, so, SO much less interesting and really takes the wind out of Goku's sails which coupled with his horrendous characterization in Super has done quite a lot to damage the character and I absolutely blame Toriyama for this.
The cherry on this shit sunday is nuBroly getting several traits of Goku's old backstory because Goku being turned into a considerably shitier character is totally warranted so Broly of all people can be marginally less shit.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Re: So Son Goku was actually sent from Planet Vegeta as a kid, not as a baby?
Toriyama is worse than GL. Lucas at least came up with new ideas
- ABED
- Namekian Warrior
- Posts: 20276
- Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
- Location: Skippack, PA
- Contact:
Re: So Son Goku was actually sent from Planet Vegeta as a kid, not as a baby?
How does it have nothing to do with your point? At this point, yes, Toriyama hasn't done anything close to physically inserting new material into his old material and making the older version unavailable, but saying things like Beerus was the one to tell Freeza to destroy Planet Vegeta does come AWFULLY close. It changes things a lot.The Tori-bot wrote:Nothing to do with my point. Besides, Toriyama hasn't done anything like that. The closest he's come is rewriting the ending slightly for the kanzenban, and nobody freaked out over that.ABED wrote:It's not about overwriting the expanded universe, it's things like Greedo shooting first and Hayden Christensen inserted into Return of the Jedi.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
-
- I Live Here
- Posts: 4170
- Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
- Location: Houston, Texas
Re: So Son Goku was actually sent from Planet Vegeta as a kid, not as a baby?
Apart from undermining Freeza’s role in wiping out the Saiyan race, the most confusing thing about that retcon is that it makes you wonder why Beerus couldn’t just destroy Planet Vegeta himself. I get that Beerus is lazy, but his entire thing is that he destroys planets for a living, and is able to do so with no effort whatsoever, so if he wanted the Saiyans gone, why did he need to get Freeza to do it for him?ABED wrote:How does it have nothing to do with your point? At this point, yes, Toriyama hasn't done anything close to physically inserting new material into his old material and making the older version unavailable, but saying things like Beerus was the one to tell Freeza to destroy Planet Vegeta does come AWFULLY close. It changes things a lot.The Tori-bot wrote:Nothing to do with my point. Besides, Toriyama hasn't done anything like that. The closest he's come is rewriting the ending slightly for the kanzenban, and nobody freaked out over that.ABED wrote:It's not about overwriting the expanded universe, it's things like Greedo shooting first and Hayden Christensen inserted into Return of the Jedi.
- Kaiza_Toshiyuki
- Temporarily Banned
- Posts: 262
- Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:32 pm
- Location: South Carolina
Re: So Son Goku was actually sent from Planet Vegeta as a kid, not as a baby?
I think you answered your own question. He is lazy. It has been shown time and time again how Beerus and Shin are terrible at thier jobs, so you´d think this would not be a question.WittyUsername wrote:Apart from undermining Freeza’s role in wiping out the Saiyan race, the most confusing thing about that retcon is that it makes you wonder why Beerus couldn’t just destroy Planet Vegeta himself. I get that Beerus is lazy, but his entire thing is that he destroys planets for a living, and is able to do so with no effort whatsoever, so if he wanted the Saiyans gone, why did he need to get Freeza to do it for him?ABED wrote:How does it have nothing to do with your point? At this point, yes, Toriyama hasn't done anything close to physically inserting new material into his old material and making the older version unavailable, but saying things like Beerus was the one to tell Freeza to destroy Planet Vegeta does come AWFULLY close. It changes things a lot.The Tori-bot wrote: Nothing to do with my point. Besides, Toriyama hasn't done anything like that. The closest he's come is rewriting the ending slightly for the kanzenban, and nobody freaked out over that.
-
- I Live Here
- Posts: 4170
- Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
- Location: Houston, Texas
Re: So Son Goku was actually sent from Planet Vegeta as a kid, not as a baby?
But again, Beerus has already been established as the kind of person who destroys planets on a regular basis, and doing so requires virtually no effort on his part. It’s not like destroying Planet Vegeta would be any more of a time consuming task for him than telling Freeza to destroy it.Kaiza_Toshiyuki wrote:I think you answered your own question. He is lazy. It has been shown time and time again how Beerus and Shin are terrible at thier jobs, so you´d think this would not be a question.WittyUsername wrote:Apart from undermining Freeza’s role in wiping out the Saiyan race, the most confusing thing about that retcon is that it makes you wonder why Beerus couldn’t just destroy Planet Vegeta himself. I get that Beerus is lazy, but his entire thing is that he destroys planets for a living, and is able to do so with no effort whatsoever, so if he wanted the Saiyans gone, why did he need to get Freeza to do it for him?ABED wrote:How does it have nothing to do with your point? At this point, yes, Toriyama hasn't done anything close to physically inserting new material into his old material and making the older version unavailable, but saying things like Beerus was the one to tell Freeza to destroy Planet Vegeta does come AWFULLY close. It changes things a lot.