Was Vegeta "third time's the charm" for a rival?

[ABED]

Neither characters' acknowledgement is neccessary for it to be so.

[Michsi]

I disagree, but that's also only a part of the reason it isn't.

[KBABZ]

From a Google search of Top Anime Rivalries:

Goku & Vegeta: #1
Goku & Vegeta: #3
Goku & Vegeta: #1
Goku & Vegeta stated as "hard to forget"
Goku & Vegeta: #1
Goku & Vegeta: #2

[ABED]

I disagree, but that's also only a part of the reason it isn't.

It doesn't matter if you agree. It's a fact by definition. It doesn't require acknowledgement by either participant.

[Michsi]

I disagree, but that's also only a part of the reason it isn't.

It doesn't matter if you agree. It's a fact by definition. It doesn't require acknowledgement by either participant.

We are clearly not on the same page regarding the term. I am not and was never talking about the term as you find it in the dex.

From a Google search of Top Anime Rivalries:

Goku & Vegeta: #1
Goku & Vegeta: #3
Goku & Vegeta: #1
Goku & Vegeta stated as "hard to forget"
Goku & Vegeta: #1
Goku & Vegeta: #2

Yes, it's this perception among the fandom that led Vegeta to actually be officially seen as that. No denied that's how the majority of fans view him.

[ABED]

So you made up your own definition? I'm legitimately trying to understand where you're coming from.

[Michsi]

No, I'm talking about the term as it's generally used now when referring to the modern shounen action genre, a glorified position/role among the main cast due to the dynamic it brings. The reason it's not seen so much as a character type but more like a role that the character fulfills is because the personality differs depending on the MC, but the dynamic is usually the same. It's not so much about competing for the same goal as it is having someone around to butt heads with the MC.

[ABED]

But Vegeta is constantly butting head with Goku.

[Michsi]

But Vegeta is constantly butting head with Goku.

He'd like to, it's Goku that doesn't really play along, hence my stance on the issue. It's the protagonist that gives importance to the role through how much he sees the rival character as a threat or ,as it is in certain cases, a goal to aspire to. After the Namek saga, Goku is mindful of Vegeta's strength, but never treats him as someone he looks forward to fighting. The closest it ever got was when they were supposed to fight each other in the tournament, but even then we know Goku was far stronger than Vegeta.

[ABED]

But Vegeta is constantly butting head with Goku.

He'd like to, it's Goku that doesn't really play along, hence my stance on the issue. It's the protagonist that gives importance to the role through how much he sees the rival character as a threat or ,as it is in certain cases, a goal to aspire to.

Where did this idea come from? I've never heard anyone claim that for something to be a rivalry, at the very least the protagonist has to think so.

We know due to a retcon.

[Michsi]

But Vegeta is constantly butting head with Goku.

He'd like to, it's Goku that doesn't really play along, hence my stance on the issue. It's the protagonist that gives importance to the role through how much he sees the rival character as a threat or ,as it is in certain cases, a goal to aspire to.

Where did this idea come from? I've never heard anyone claim that for something to be a rivalry, at the very least the protagonist has to think so.

We know due to a retcon.

Genre observation and general consensus within the anime community that recognizes story patterns and popular tropes? There's no academy that covers these things, it's just part of the community discourse.

Retcon or no retcon, (why is it a retcon) it's part of the original story. Not to mention that we know Goku was stronger than Vegeta even without the SSJ3, it's the reason he chooses to accept Babidi in the first place.

[KBABZ]

He'd like to, it's Goku that doesn't really play along, hence my stance on the issue. It's the protagonist that gives importance to the role through how much he sees the rival character as a threat or ,as it is in certain cases, a goal to aspire to. After the Namek saga, Goku is mindful of Vegeta's strength, but never treats him as someone he looks forward to fighting. The closest it ever got was when they were supposed to fight each other in the tournament, but even then we know Goku was far stronger than Vegeta.

Goku was very excited to have the chance to face Goku again when talking with him, at least as far as I can tell. Also, isn't the entire reason he spared Vegeta on Earth was for the chance to fight him again?

[ABED]

There's a big difference between a trope and a rule. And I don't even buy that it's a trope. How would a trope like this arise, textually I mean? I can't imagine how this discussion occurs in the series themselves. How do you recognize something like this as a trope. "Hey do you guys notice how these two aren't rivals because the protagonist doesn't see it like that?"

It's a retcon because Goku tells Vegeta he's going to fight all out and why would he lie about that? Not only that, but in-universe, it's not in Goku's character to get into that sort of fight with someone that much weaker than him. What does he have to gain by letting the fight get that intense when he has the power to defeat Vegeta with minimal effort? Lastly, it's Toriyama is a pantser. He didn't think that far ahead. There are a few other reasons but little point in giving them all.

Yes, Goku was stronger, but with Majin and SSJ2, Vegeta was on par with Goku hence the brutality of their battle, that is before Toriyama had Goku pull out SSJ3 many chapters later.

[lancerman]

Tenshinhan and Piccolo became allies with the heroes immediately in the next arc and didn’t have time to develop into rivals.

Vegeta was an antihero in the arc following his and it always felt like a marriage of convenience. Vegeta also was never on anything resembling good terms with Goku until the conclusion of the series.

[Michsi]

There's a big difference between a trope and a rule. And I don't even buy that it's a trope. How would a trope like this arise, textually I mean? I can't imagine how this discussion occurs in the series themselves. How do you recognize something like this as a trope. "Hey do you guys notice how these two aren't rivals because the protagonist doesn't see it like that?"

No one ever said anything about a rule. And it is very much a trope. And the series usually makes it evident by having the protagonist either loudly proclaim it or have them focus on each other intently throughout their journey.

It's a retcon because Goku tells Vegeta he's going to fight all out and why would he lie about that? Not only that, but in-universe, it's not in Goku's character to get into that sort of fight with someone that much weaker than him. What does he have to gain by letting the fight get that intense when he has the power to defeat Vegeta with minimal effort? Lastly, it's Toriyama is a pantser. He didn't think that far ahead. There are a few other reasons but little point in giving them all.

I don't remember Goku saying he'll fight all out but I can't check it myself right now. Regardless, it makes Vegeta's effort retroactively look worse, and whether it was planned or not, it is what it is.

[ABED]

No one ever said anything about a rule. And it is very much a trope. And the series usually makes it evident by having the protagonist either loudly proclaim it or have them focus on each other intently throughout their journey.

Of course, because it's not a rule. It's an arbitrary distinction that the antagonist's views don't matter. Vegeta constantly focuses on Goku. Perhaps it's a trope that the characters will proclaim it, but who decided that unless they are on the nose, it doesn't constitute a rivalry? Does anyone need characters to proclaim what should be obvious in order for it to be so?

I don't remember Goku saying he'll fight all out but I can't check it myself right now. Regardless, it makes Vegeta's effort retroactively look worse, and whether it was planned or not, it is what it is.

I don't recall if he said he'd fight all out, I think he said he'd end it quick.

It isn't just what it is. It's BOTH. That's what a retcon is - it's rewriting previously established fact.

You seem to be drawing a distinction between A rival and THE rival of a series, but I would just consider Vegeta to be Goku's most persistent rival.

[Nokra]

Vegeta was barely Gokus rival in dbz and really only became a true rival in dbs. I think the reason he stuck is mostly due to the fact he's a saiyan and saiyan have always been popular unlike namekians or earthlings.