Orange Bricks/Blu-Ray Comparisons

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Re: Orange Bricks/Blu-Ray Comparisons

Post by sangofe » Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:34 am

JohnnyCashKami wrote:
uzuni wrote:I should also note that their Japanese streams for Seasons 8 and 9 are Dragon Box footage!
FUNimation is in possession of Dragon Box footage for Z and GT so it could just be a matter of time before they re-release Z properly.

Edit: Apparently, they also have Dragon Box: The Movies but never released.
They are surely waiting for the new toei remaster.

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Re: Orange Bricks/Blu-Ray Comparisons

Post by JEFFMAN219 » Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:59 am

sangofe wrote:
JohnnyCashKami wrote:
uzuni wrote:I should also note that their Japanese streams for Seasons 8 and 9 are Dragon Box footage!
FUNimation is in possession of Dragon Box footage for Z and GT so it could just be a matter of time before they re-release Z properly.

Edit: Apparently, they also have Dragon Box: The Movies but never released.
They are surely waiting for the new toei remaster.
Hopefully Toei does a proper HD remaster for DBZ's 30th anniversary next year.

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Re: Orange Bricks/Blu-Ray Comparisons

Post by sangofe » Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:53 am

JEFFMAN219 wrote:
sangofe wrote:
JohnnyCashKami wrote: FUNimation is in possession of Dragon Box footage for Z and GT so it could just be a matter of time before they re-release Z properly.

Edit: Apparently, they also have Dragon Box: The Movies but never released.
They are surely waiting for the new toei remaster.
Hopefully Toei does a proper HD remaster for DBZ's 30th anniversary next year.
It's becoming more and more likely as they remastered the bardock special since they always bundled the specials with the tv episodes.

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Re: Orange Bricks/Blu-Ray Comparisons

Post by nato25 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:37 pm

JohnnyCashKami wrote:
Kakacarrottop wrote:
uzuni wrote:I've compiled what I think is enough images from SEASON 3 to have conclusive evidence as to which variant is better.

Episode 75
Episode 85
Episode 96
Episode 107
If you turned down the contrast levels of the Orange Bricks on Avidemux or some other video editing software I'm pretty sure what you would get is the Blu-Rays
True. The Blu-rays are nearly identical to the DVDs with some minor tweaks.

It's funny people think the Season BDs are that much better when it's a tiny improvement anyone could have done.

Ah, Amazon reviews.. :lol:
Please don't take this in an aggressive tone, but what would you consider a major improvement though then I ask? To me the Bluray's sharpness is a massive step up over the DVD's. The brightness and colours are also corrected to something much more acceptable. I don't know how much better the quality can get considering the age of this show now.

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Re: Orange Bricks/Blu-Ray Comparisons

Post by JohnnyCashKami » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:23 am

nato25 wrote:Please don't take this in an aggressive tone, but what would you consider a major improvement though then I ask? To me the Bluray's sharpness is a massive step up over the DVD's. The brightness and colours are also corrected to something much more acceptable. I don't know how much better the quality can get considering the age of this show now.
Dude, FUNimation did a literal shit job with both of their Dragon Ball Z remasters. The series definitely can look vastly better than that piece of dogshit you see on the Orange Bricks and Season Blu-rays.

Let's go back to 2011 when FUNimation was remastering Z properly but then canceled...

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Don't forget that Dragon Ball Kai used Dragon Ball Z footage remastered in high definition though not in the way we expected (with the level of finesse FUNimation did).

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Not sure if these screenshots are from the Dragon Box Z JP or Dragon Box Z US, but got 'em from here

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If you still can't see how much better the series can be seen in, then I don't know what could convince ya.

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Re: Orange Bricks/Blu-Ray Comparisons

Post by nato25 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:34 am

I guess its hard for me to see the difference there without comaprison shots. You seem to know your stuff so ill take your word for it.

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Re: Orange Bricks/Blu-Ray Comparisons

Post by JohnnyCashKami » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:14 am

nato25 wrote:I guess its hard for me to see the difference there without comaprison shots. You seem to know your stuff so ill take your word for it.
FUNi's 'remaster' is cropped, saturated, tons of loss of detail, too much brightness at time, art lines go missing and episode scenes get shaky (Season Blu-rays). Just some examples.

I thought that most people at this point would know what to expect from OB/Season BDs to then compare to actual proper remasters. Sorry, bud.

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Re: Orange Bricks/Blu-Ray Comparisons

Post by Kakacarrottop » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:16 am

nato25 wrote:
JohnnyCashKami wrote:
Kakacarrottop wrote: If you turned down the contrast levels of the Orange Bricks on Avidemux or some other video editing software I'm pretty sure what you would get is the Blu-Rays
True. The Blu-rays are nearly identical to the DVDs with some minor tweaks.

It's funny people think the Season BDs are that much better when it's a tiny improvement anyone could have done.

Ah, Amazon reviews.. :lol:
Please don't take this in an aggressive tone, but what would you consider a major improvement though then I ask? To me the Bluray's sharpness is a massive step up over the DVD's. The brightness and colours are also corrected to something much more acceptable. I don't know how much better the quality can get considering the age of this show now.
Image
All the lazy DVNR processing turns it into something that isn't natural at all, something that almost resembles a pastel painting at times. Funi's attempts to undo the damage of the Orange Bricks turns the Blu-Rays into an artifical Frankenstein-like mess.

The original singles from the early 2000s might be poorly encoded and from low quality tape masters, but they still look like Dragon Ball Z to me; ie an old grainy 4:3 cartoon that aired from 1989 to 1996.
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Re: Orange Bricks/Blu-Ray Comparisons

Post by nato25 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:26 am

I see this topic has caught the attention of Ajay which is cool. I'm sure this is an unpopular opinion but i prefer as much grain removed as possible. To me grain is a limitation of the medium used at the time. I wouldn't want all those weird film crackles and pops to still exist in those films if they were 'remastered' today for example.

I definitely agree with that pastel painting comment made earlier but I don't mind that look at all. If you think those top pictures shots from the saiyan saga look better than all I can say is we have a differing opinion and I respect that. I'll keep my blu-ray season sets until something better (in my eyes) comes along.

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Re: Orange Bricks/Blu-Ray Comparisons

Post by Ajay » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:52 am

Grain =/= film damage.

Every single piece of film you watch has grain. It's an inherent part of the format. Filmmakers will choose specific types of film based on their grain structure as it helps define the aesthetic and feel of the film.

The horrific butchering of the show by Funimation flies entirely in the face of what the show is supposed to look like. Even if you removed the grain in the least destructive way possible, their oversaturated and over-contrasted colour work is still a total disgrace. It is laughably poor.
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Re: Orange Bricks/Blu-Ray Comparisons

Post by KBABZ » Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:21 am

Congrats on 6,000 posts, Ajay!

I agree on the grain. I think the amount seen in the Level Set shots is a bit extreme, but in motion it'd look a lot better.

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Re: Orange Bricks/Blu-Ray Comparisons

Post by Sin » Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:47 am

Ajay wrote:Grain =/= film damage.

Every single piece of film you watch has grain. It's an inherent part of the format. Filmmakers will choose specific types of film based on their grain structure as it helps define the aesthetic and feel of the film.

The horrific butchering of the show by Funimation flies entirely in the face of what the show is supposed to look like. Even if you removed the grain in the least destructive way possible, their oversaturated and over-contrasted colour work is still a total disgrace. It is laughably poor.
I agree, grain should remain untouched, but does anybody know if they added grain into the level sets?

This amount of grain just doesn't seem natural, and imo looks to be added in post to make it seem more authentic.

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Re: Orange Bricks/Blu-Ray Comparisons

Post by Ajay » Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:05 pm

The Level Sets come from generational masters. They're not the original masters that Toei has, so as a result they are significantly grimier and grainier than they should be.

I guess the closest analogy I can think of is a photocopy of the original, and perhaps even a photocopy of a photocopy. Things start to look a whole lot worse.

There are portions of 16mm footage of the show from Toei's recent movie sets that should give you an idea of the actual level of grain on these things:
Obviously it's cropped, so the grain structure's larger than it would be to your eyes in 4:3, but you can see pretty clearly that's not even in the same realm as the Level Sets grain-wise.
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Re: Orange Bricks/Blu-Ray Comparisons

Post by nato25 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:09 pm

Ajay wrote:Grain =/= film damage.

Every single piece of film you watch has grain. It's an inherent part of the format. Filmmakers will choose specific types of film based on their grain structure as it helps define the aesthetic and feel of the film.

The horrific butchering of the show by Funimation flies entirely in the face of what the show is supposed to look like. Even if you removed the grain in the least destructive way possible, their oversaturated and over-contrasted colour work is still a total disgrace. It is laughably poor.
Let me preface my comment by saying I think you are one of the best animation and art analysers we have in our community.

I completely understand your view for maintaining the look of an original work and no doubt those trunks screens look gorgeous and probably do look better than the blurays.

But too me theres a reason that Super doesnt have grain for example. Because in this day theres technology to make a show without it. You could easily argue as many of you have that the technology doesnt exist yet to 'clean' up the grain properly and youre probably right. That Goku Piccolo screenshot posted earlier doesn't look great especially Goku's hand and the colours are too bright.

This thread started as orange bricks vs blurays and in that regard surely the blurays have to be better received. Selective cropping, huge increase in sharpness and the colours are largely toned down from the over saturated orange bricks. Even if you like the grain the positives dont outweigh the negatives.

From what I've seen of the new film remasters that is some of the best og Dragon ball footage I've seen though so if that gets a wide release that will definitely top the blurays.

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Re: Orange Bricks/Blu-Ray Comparisons

Post by Ajay » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:22 pm

Super does have grain, though. Nagamine made a point to add it among with his other aesthetic changes for the Universe Survival arc. It's a little hard to see due to the low quality web streams, but it's clear as day on the Blu-ray. That's really my point; it's an aesthetic that's very important to creators.

You can absolutely degrain really well these days, and there are plenty of releases that do an amazing job to the point that it looks like the original cels in front of your eyes. It does vastly alter the feel of the show though, and I suppose that's where it the subjectivity of it comes about.

That's fine and all, and I respect that viewpoint, but I just take major issue with this idea that it's a defect that needs to go.
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Re: Orange Bricks/Blu-Ray Comparisons

Post by JohnnyCashKami » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:41 pm

nato25 wrote:
Ajay wrote:Grain =/= film damage.

Every single piece of film you watch has grain. It's an inherent part of the format. Filmmakers will choose specific types of film based on their grain structure as it helps define the aesthetic and feel of the film.

The horrific butchering of the show by Funimation flies entirely in the face of what the show is supposed to look like. Even if you removed the grain in the least destructive way possible, their oversaturated and over-contrasted colour work is still a total disgrace. It is laughably poor.
Let me preface my comment by saying I think you are one of the best animation and art analysers we have in our community.

I completely understand your view for maintaining the look of an original work and no doubt those trunks screens look gorgeous and probably do look better than the blurays.

But too me theres a reason that Super doesnt have grain for example. Because in this day theres technology to make a show without it. You could easily argue as many of you have that the technology doesnt exist yet to 'clean' up the grain properly and youre probably right. That Goku Piccolo screenshot posted earlier doesn't look great especially Goku's hand and the colours are too bright.

This thread started as orange bricks vs blurays and in that regard surely the blurays have to be better received. Selective cropping, huge increase in sharpness and the colours are largely toned down from the over saturated orange bricks. Even if you like the grain the positives dont outweigh the negatives.

From what I've seen of the new film remasters that is some of the best og Dragon ball footage I've seen though so if that gets a wide release that will definitely top the blurays.
Love how you're all like "Let me just say you're an amazing contributor to the community but just hold up.."

I suppose since you're in favor of eradicating the grain then the screenshot comparison below, the left screenshot looks more pleasing than the right one. Or am I wrong to assume that, eh?

Image

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Re: Orange Bricks/Blu-Ray Comparisons

Post by nato25 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:54 pm

JohnnyCashKami wrote:
nato25 wrote:
Ajay wrote:Grain =/= film damage.

Every single piece of film you watch has grain. It's an inherent part of the format. Filmmakers will choose specific types of film based on their grain structure as it helps define the aesthetic and feel of the film.

The horrific butchering of the show by Funimation flies entirely in the face of what the show is supposed to look like. Even if you removed the grain in the least destructive way possible, their oversaturated and over-contrasted colour work is still a total disgrace. It is laughably poor.
Let me preface my comment by saying I think you are one of the best animation and art analysers we have in our community.

I completely understand your view for maintaining the look of an original work and no doubt those trunks screens look gorgeous and probably do look better than the blurays.

But too me theres a reason that Super doesnt have grain for example. Because in this day theres technology to make a show without it. You could easily argue as many of you have that the technology doesnt exist yet to 'clean' up the grain properly and youre probably right. That Goku Piccolo screenshot posted earlier doesn't look great especially Goku's hand and the colours are too bright.

This thread started as orange bricks vs blurays and in that regard surely the blurays have to be better received. Selective cropping, huge increase in sharpness and the colours are largely toned down from the over saturated orange bricks. Even if you like the grain the positives dont outweigh the negatives.

From what I've seen of the new film remasters that is some of the best og Dragon ball footage I've seen though so if that gets a wide release that will definitely top the blurays.
Love how you're all like "Let me just say you're an amazing contributor to the community but just hold up.."

I suppose since you're in favor of eradicating the grain then the screenshot comparison below, the left screenshot looks more pleasing than the right one. Or am I wrong to assume that, eh?

Image
I definitely respect Ajay's opinion I just have a differing one that's all, I absolutely mean no aggression. That's an interesting point about Super having grain I'll definitely have to throw in my Blu-rays (I'll be honest I just lazily watch it on stream when I feel like it because it's easier) to check that out. Thanks for showing respect back.

I'm not a big movie buff so I'm not familiar with that source material JohnnyCashKami, but yeah Id say right looks better there just because that actor looks unnaturally shiny in that picture, probably more to do with make up though rather than just the grain. The grain just hides the unpleasantness of that more.

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Re: Orange Bricks/Blu-Ray Comparisons

Post by Ajay » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:33 pm

nato25 wrote:I'm not a big movie buff so I'm not familiar with that source material JohnnyCashKami, but yeah Id say right looks better there just because that actor looks unnaturally shiny in that picture, probably more to do with make up though rather than just the grain. The grain just hides the unpleasantness of that more.
Nope, that's entirely to do with the grain, unfortunately. The way grain removal works is that it sort of smooths over and approximates what's there, and that leaves the picture looking spectacularly blurry and unnatural.

Even in something like Kai that I think removes the grain fairly competently, you'll see the backgrounds and overall image are pretty damn soft compared to even their SD counterparts.
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Re: Orange Bricks/Blu-Ray Comparisons

Post by nato25 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:00 pm

Interesting, this has been a humbling lesson in grain removal haha.

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