Why hire an old lady when you can get a dude?

[Forte224]

A sentiment that I honestly don't understand. Why do so many of the same people that hate her as normal Goku love her as Goku Black? Yeah, she voices him differently, but it's still her voicing a version of Goku.

If I had to guess/project, it's because they were (forced to start) watching it exclusively in Japanese. No other version existed to imprint in their mind as "the performance" for the character. They were actually listening and paying attention to the sole existing performance, rather than being in a constant state of comparison.

Lets not also forget that with Super they're actually watching the Japanese performances through whole episodes at a time, rather than just spot checking youtube clips in brief snippets.

Evidently from what I've gathered, there's a whole contingent of dub fans throughout the past decade or so who have primarily just been watching DBZ via favorite isolated clips on youtube rather than via whole entire episodes at a stretch. This apparently had also done a lot to help skew their perspective on the series, since they're continuously gorging themselves only on contextless moments they love most from the dub, while comparing those (defensively) against the Japanese version via similarly clipped snippets; as opposed to actually sitting back and trying to actively engage with the series (in either version) via actually watching straight through a whole arc or what have you.

This is the biggest aspect right here I think. I'm willing to bet a LARGE percentage of people who dub themselves hardcore Dragon Ball (Z) fans haven't actually sat and watched it in over a decade.

[KBABZ]

If I had to guess/project, it's because they were (forced to start) watching it exclusively in Japanese. No other version existed to imprint in their mind as "the performance" for the character. They were actually listening and paying attention to the sole existing performance, rather than being in a constant state of comparison.

Lets not also forget that with Super they're actually watching the Japanese performances through whole episodes at a time, rather than just spot checking youtube clips in brief snippets.

Evidently from what I've gathered, there's a whole contingent of dub fans throughout the past decade or so who have primarily just been watching DBZ via favorite isolated clips on youtube rather than via whole entire episodes at a stretch. This apparently had also done a lot to help skew their perspective on the series, since they're continuously gorging themselves only on contextless moments they love most from the dub, while comparing those (defensively) against the Japanese version via similarly clipped snippets; as opposed to actually sitting back and trying to actively engage with the series (in either version) via actually watching straight through a whole arc or what have you.

This is the biggest aspect right here I think. I'm willing to bet a LARGE percentage of people who dub themselves hardcore Dragon Ball (Z) fans haven't actually sat and watched it in over a decade.

I'd rather watch all the Star Wars movies AND all the Extended LOTR+Hobbit movies than take the time to watch all of the Z dub... but I'm biased there, haha. One of the benefits of Kai really, it's a lot brisker to get through so it isn't anywhere near as daunting.

[Kunzait_83]

I'd rather watch all the Star Wars movies AND all the Extended LOTR+Hobbit movies than take the time to watch all of the Z dub... but I'm biased there, haha. One of the benefits of Kai really, it's a lot brisker to get through so it isn't anywhere near as daunting.

At over 160 episodes, Kai is still hardly some kind of jog in the park length-wise. Its substantially less than 291 eps of course, but its still a bit longer than the original DB anime, and its certainly still a fairly massive series in general by most standards.

And obviously if you were going to take the time go through Z, the dub is hardly an optimal (nor strictly necessary) means of doing so to put it mildly.

[KBABZ]

At over 160 episodes, Kai is still hardly some kind of jog in the park length-wise. Its substantially less than 291 eps of course, but its still a bit longer than the original DB anime, and its certainly still a fairly massive series in general by most standards.

Kai has much faster pacing though when you watch it, so instead of being a slog I tend to rocket through the Saiyan and Namek arcs. Cell and Buu doesn't have this so much, though.

And obviously if you were going to take the time go through Z, the dub is hardly an optimal (nor strictly necessary) means of doing so to put it mildly.

Huh, you feel that Kai is still better-served with the Japanese performances despite being sub-par compared to the original Z pass?

[8000 Saiyan]

Huh, you feel that Kai is still better-served with the Japanese performances despite being sub-par compared to the original Z pass?

He doesn't care for Kai and he did say that he still prefers their performances over the English cast.

[Kunzait_83]

Kai has much faster pacing though when you watch it, so instead of being a slog I tend to rocket through the Saiyan and Namek arcs. Cell and Buu doesn't have this so much, though.

The Saiya-jin arc's pacing in the original Z anime is hardly a slow burn. Its about on par with most any given arc in the latter half of original DB in terms of pacing, tone, style, etc. There's filler yeah, but like in original DB, its filler that's largely well regarded, and that genuinely adds to and enhances the narrative mostly.

The Freeza arc is where the pacing and filler starts to become an issue; but even there I would argue its much more in its latter stages than in the early goings. Early on, your occasional/odd Fake Namek one-off aside, the Freeza arc's pacing in original Z is still more or less about where the Saiya-jin arc's pacing was (i.e. reasonably decent enough), and its only when the final Goku vs Freeza fight starts that it seriously begins to stall and lose any momentum.

Again, mileages may vary and all, but I would argue that the pacing issues in the original Z anime are mainly a problem in late Freeza through the majority of Cell. Everything prior to and after that is largely fine for the most part (with some bumps in the road of course). Hell, the Boo arc is unique in that it may well be the one and only arc in the anime where the filler actually helps make it somewhat of an UPGRADE over the manga.

If anything, particularly with regards to the Saiya-jin arc, I would say that Kai overall has the OPPOSITE problem: where the pacing is much TOO fast thanks to incredibly sloppy and careless editing (that has zero regard for the original anime's direction as well as whether or not its cutting material that's actually from the manga or not). Its an issue throughout the entirety of Kai to varying degrees, but its ESPECIALLY pronounced and at its absolute worst in the Saiya-jin arc, where the episodes are edited as if they're being made for a special ADHD classroom.

There's a genuine debate to be had with regards to pacing in most of the other Z arcs and how they fare over in Kai: but for me I would say that the original Z anime's version of the Saiya-jin arc at the very least is hands down no contest superior to Kai's.

Just because something is faster paced doesn't necessarily mean that that, in and of itself, is innately and inherently superior creatively. The slower pace of some of the later Z material is problematic because some of the filler used is of poor quality that is obviously little more than blatant padding and time wasting that adds nothing whatsoever to the material (again, the late period of the Freeza arc is where this is most heavily and obviously pronounced, as is some significant stretches of the Cell arc): the problem is NOT simply because the pace is just slow in and of itself.

There's a LOT of film and TV shows out there with slower pacing that are fundamentally all the better and more effective for it. Just like the reverse of that is sometimes true (where some things are better for being quicker paced). These things are, of course, 100% case by case and context dependent: but so often, the DB fanbase acts as if "faster means inherently better, no matter what the case may be, and slower paced is always inherently/fundamentally worse", which is unbelievably short-sighted, unnuanced, and stupid. Just like the reverse would be as well.

Huh, you feel that Kai is still better-served with the Japanese performances despite being sub-par compared to the original Z pass?

Read what I said again (emphasis added):

And obviously if you were going to take the time go through Z, the dub is hardly an optimal (nor strictly necessary) means of doing so to put it mildly.

I was referring to the original (non-Kai) Z anime in response to what you said here (emphasis again added):

I'd rather watch all the Star Wars movies AND all the Extended LOTR+Hobbit movies than take the time to watch all of the Z dub

Basically if you're going to bother to watch through the original non-Kai Z anime at all, for whatever reason, then the dub really shouldn't be the advised version you go with for it. Unless you have a STRONG nostalgic attachment to the original Z dub (as many in the fandom inexplicably do) or are watching it for some specific reviewing/comparison purposes or to spot check for something specific, then sub-only should probably remain the order of the day for most people watching through the original non-Kai Z anime, especially if its for the first time: since by most even reasonable quality metrics, it's just a fundamentally broken product that's legitimately damaging to the overall integrity of the series.

But since you brought it up: no, despite the Kai dub being "improved" over the original Z dub, I still find that the Japanese VA's, even on their absolute WORST days, are still lightyears beyond just about anyone in the dub case on their tip top best day. Kai's is an improvement over what came before: but that doesn't in any way mean that its "good". It amounts to exactly what ALL of FUNimation's incremental "improvements" have been at the English dub throughout the years: polishing a turd.

For the simple reason: other than rare, RARE gems in the lot like Ayers, most of the the key "legacy" members of the FUNimation dub cast are largely just bad actors who, no matter how long they do these roles and how much they "polish" up their performances, are ALWAYS going to be fundamentally terrible in these roles for a combination of two main reasons:

1) The mindset and creative direction behind the voice direction is still to this day, as it was from the very beginnings back in the mid/late 90s (even among the Ocean cast), COMPLETELY and innately wrongheaded and broken from its very foundations (i.e. "This is a Saturday morning kids cartoon, so remember that you're all voicing over the top cartoon stereotypes, so don't ever put any naturalism or gravitas into any of your performances for a second: be as much of a garish caricature as possible, like you're doing a cheesy puppet show at a kids' birthday party"); so much so that it fundamentally cripples even some of the better actors best efforts.

And 2) key, starring voices like Schemmel, Sabat, Straight, etc. are just innately untalented, unappealing, and incompetent actors who were ALWAYS miscast in these parts from moment one, and shouldn't be trusted to performing in anything that's above sub D-grade material.

By contrast, all of the Japanese VA's are beyond seasoned (by numerous decades) and VERY well respected professionals (many of them out and out industry legends) with buckets full of talent and charisma to spare, and who even on their most off days are still more than capable of delivering solid, competent performances that more than meet at least a baseline level of naturalistic quality and professionalism.

In another thread I even went, point by point, through a pivotal Kai scene with Schemmel's Goku where even in his most well-regarded and most polished turn in this role, which is his SIGNATURE role that defines his entire career... he STILL sounds unbelievably forced, unnatural, and just out and out inexcusably amateurish. To still sound so awkward, inorganic, uncomfortable, and inexperienced at just BASIC-most emoting after voicing the SAME fucking role for nearly 20 solid years... that takes a special degree of incompetence and just an outright stunning lack of even a shred of acting talent.

These guys are just fundamentally terrible and talent-bereft actors, and its safe to say that after 20 straight years of non-stop honing at these roles, no amount of experience is EVER going to fix that. By almost ANY sane degree of standards and baseline quality control, they should've been shitcanned from these roles eons ago, and its purely through a combination of the inherent success of DB/Z, industry inertia, a stunning degree of fandom clinginess and lack of standards, as well as (on some level for some of these guys) sheer behind the scenes nepotism, that they're still gainfully employed in these parts, despite being so consistently ungodly and unquestionably terrible in them throughout all of these years.

The Japanese cast, even in Kai where they're sometimes practically phoning it in (and in cases like poor Joji Yanami, are in failing health), still effortlessly dance around the FUNimation cast in their supposed "primes" and its beyond sad and pathetic. Bless his heart, Yanami could voice Kaio from his literal deathbed, and would still utterly TROUNCE Schemmel's unlistenable "Down syndrome kid gagging to death on a bucket full of stale molasses" rendition, even with Schemmel in as tip top, on the ball primed as he can possibly be. And that's just a single microcosm of the beyond vast gulf of talent that separates these two DB/Z voice casts.

Hence, if anyone is someday, somehow, and by some miraculous twist of events, EVER going to do a "proper" and "legitimate" dub of the original Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z anime, then I don't give two shits HOW nostalgically attached to some of these guys the fanbase is: with maybe only one or two exceptions, they ALL have to go and be replaced 100% from scratch, and the ENTIRE style and approach of the voice direction COMPLETELY rethought and reworked from the ground up (with an emphasis on basic-most organic naturalism over cartoon caricaturization).

Its NOT a coincidence AT ALL that the hands down BEST voices in Kai are across the board all voices who were recast from scratch. Do that for EVERYONE, and only THEN we'll be well on our way towards something approaching a halfway listenable English language version of DB/Z. Because the "classic" FUNi cast (as well as the "But its what I grew up with!" mindset of the fanbase that helps keep them around) are now, and have ALWAYS been, dead weight and an albatross around the series' neck in the English speaking world.

[Ssjcell]

Well a lot of people like masoka so I don't really have a problem with it as long as Japanese fans really like her as Goku coupled with the fact that AT hand picked her.

[KBABZ]

Just because something is faster paced doesn't necessarily mean that that, in and of itself, is innately and inherently superior creatively.

Don't get me wrong, there is a certain line to be had. To compare with something I'm familiar with, the first season of SpongeBob, while good, is a bit lackadaisy in the episode pacing. Season 2 hits a perfect level for what the show needs, while Season 3 is just a little bit quicker, to a slight detriment but not to an outright negative degree. Season 4 however (the first without the main creator on board anymore) was RIDICULOUSLY fast-paced, like they were trying to shove 40-minute plotlines into a 20-minute show, and the stories became largely incomprehensible as a result with no room to breathe. Personally, I don't feel like Kai ever reached those levels.

Basically if you're going to bother to watch through the original non-Kai Z anime at all, for whatever reason, then the dub really shouldn't be the advised version you go with for it. Unless you have a STRONG nostalgic attachment to the original Z dub (as many in the fandom inexplicably do) or are watching it for some specific reviewing/comparison purposes or to spot check for something specific, then sub-only should probably remain the order of the day for most people watching through the original non-Kai Z anime

Agreed with this bit. Personally I always figured that the general consensus around here was that watching the Japanese audio for Kai is redundant because of how inferior it is to the original Z pass.

...also while we're on the subject, were there any outright line changes in Kai on the Japanese side? Other than smoothing out plotholes caused by editing out filler scenes and whatnot?

[mrpinbert]

It is 100 percent fact that TFS is a parody. It's NOT Dragon Ball.

And I'm completely at a loss for any moment that anyone being honest with themselves would consider TFS to have good much less great acting. Show me a moment.

To be honest I think that the "Abridged" Parody movies that TFS does are pretty good. They are all around 20-30 minutes if memory serves me right.
My ranking from "best" to, "Still pretty good"
Abridged Lord Slug
Abridged Dead Zone
Abridged Broly: the Legendary Super Saiyan
Abridged The World's Strongest
Abridged Super Android 13
Abridged Cooler's Revenge
Abridged The Return of Cooler

I'm less of a fan of the Abridged movies that they have given a Christman Theme. Like "Christmas Tree of Might" and "A Plan to Eradicate Christmas". But it has been ages since I have seen "Christmas Tree of Might".
And "A Plan to Eradicate Christmas" was pretty good.

Their "Abridged" Specials are also pretty good. I LOVE their interpretation of Bardock: The Father of Goku. And their version of The History of Trunks is also pretty good.
Their "Episode of Bardock" Special is just okay, but makes for a good Youtube video. With that one I think they honestly just did the best they could have done with material that is just not so great.

What I like about the regular Abridged movies is that they often stay pretty close to the "theme" of the original movie.
I have recently been binge watching the Original DBZ movies, in Japanese, and after that the "abrided" versions.
Although it's not my favorite from the movies.
I definitely recommend watching the "Abridged" version of Broly: The Legendary Super Saiyan, especially if you are looking for "Good" acting moments.
I honestly really like all of the scenes between Vegeta and Paragus as far as acting is concerned.
But I honestly think that the acting in their version of the movie is pretty good overall.

As far as acting is concerned. I want to share a specific scene from the Abridged version of Broly: The Legendary Super Saiyan but right now I'm having a hard time picking one, since I thought most scenes the Abrdiged version where pretty good.

[ABED]

I just don't see it. The only one that sounds professional is the one who played Paragus, but that sounds like a ringer.

[JohnnyCashKami]

It is 100 percent fact that TFS is a parody. It's NOT Dragon Ball.

And I'm completely at a loss for any moment that anyone being honest with themselves would consider TFS to have good much less great acting. Show me a moment.

To be honest I think that the "Abridged" Parody movies that TFS does are pretty good. They are all around 20-30 minutes if memory serves me right.
My ranking from "best" to, "Still pretty good"
Abridged Lord Slug
Abridged Dead Zone
Abridged Broly: the Legendary Super Saiyan
Abridged The World's Strongest
Abridged Super Android 13
Abridged Cooler's Revenge
Abridged The Return of Cooler

I'm less of a fan of the Abridged movies that they have given a Christman Theme. Like "Christmas Tree of Might" and "A Plan to Eradicate Christmas". But it has been ages since I have seen "Christmas Tree of Might".
And "A Plan to Eradicate Christmas" was pretty good.

Their "Abridged" Specials are also pretty good. I LOVE their interpretation of Bardock: The Father of Goku. And their version of The History of Trunks is also pretty good.
Their "Episode of Bardock" Special is just okay, but makes for a good Youtube video. With that one I think they honestly just did the best they could have done with material that is just not so great.

What I like about the regular Abridged movies is that they often stay pretty close to the "theme" of the original movie.
I have recently been binge watching the Original DBZ movies, in Japanese, and after that the "abrided" versions.
Although it's not my favorite from the movies.
I definitely recommend watching the "Abridged" version of Broly: The Legendary Super Saiyan, especially if you are looking for "Good" acting moments.
I honestly really like all of the scenes between Vegeta and Paragus as far as acting is concerned.
But I honestly think that the acting in their version of the movie is pretty good overall.

As far as acting is concerned. I want to share a specific scene from the Abridged version of Broly: The Legendary Super Saiyan but right now I'm having a hard time picking one, since I thought most scenes the Abrdiged version where pretty good.

Ditto. TFS parody dubs feels like content I'd be willing to pay on Netflix and it's for me a good time all around when watching it.

I can't believe TFS even dared to insert politics, that made me laugh.

[ABED]

Can anyone think of a time when a female voiced an adult male character for an American show? Exclude one offs like when Nancy Cartwright voiced an older Bart.

[Super Sonic]

Can anyone think of a time when a female voiced an adult male character for an American show? Exclude one offs like when Nancy Cartwright voiced an older Bart.

Grace Stafford as Woody Woodpecker. Others did him before her, but she's his most known voice. Also there were a couple of Popeye cartoons where Olive's va voiced him while Jack Mercer was serving in WWII. Maybe others, but those are the only ones I can think of, as you hear men voicing women more than women voicing grown men.

[SpiritBombTriumphant]

As far back as Shakespeare's era there were men who played women as women weren't in plays. It was all men. When it comes to performing arts, it is the performance a person makes that decides whether or not he/she gets the role. Not their skin color, gender, age (not completely), etc.

Honestly, I don't get why it's such a big deal for people. I have seen plenty of people complain that Japanese Goku is "Grandma Goku" because of Nozawa. Am I the only person who thinks she is perfectly fine? I say this as someone who grew up with the Saban and then Funimation dub of Z on Toonami. I can watch any Dragon Ball series and when I hear Sean Schemmel as Goku, I say, "That's Goku's natural voice. A perfect fit." But then when I watch the show in Japanese and hear Nozawa as Goku, I still say, "That's Goku's natural voice. A perfect fit."

People need to get over it. I don't know if they are sexist or just dislike the difference, but both Sean and Nozawa are perfect for voicing Goku. They both do an excellent job and are interchangeable with one another as far as I'm concerned. It doesn't sound "off" or "different" to me like when I watch the Ocean Dub or original Saban dub (pre-Funimation era Z). As others have mentioned, many characters on TV are played by a voice actor of the opposite gender. I remember Tommy Pickles from Rugrats! was voiced by a girl. I believe Bart Simpsons of The Simpsons is voiced by a girl. They all sound perfectly fine.

[ABED]

As far back as Shakespeare's era there were men who played women as women weren't in plays. It was all men. When it comes to performing arts, it is the performance a person makes that decides whether or not he/she gets the role. Not their skin color, gender, age (not completely), etc.

Honestly, I don't get why it's such a big deal for people. I have seen plenty of people complain that Japanese Goku is "Grandma Goku" because of Nozawa. Am I the only person who thinks she is perfectly fine? I say this as someone who grew up with the Saban and then Funimation dub of Z on Toonami. I can watch any Dragon Ball series and when I hear Sean Schemmel as Goku, I say, "That's Goku's natural voice. A perfect fit." But then when I watch the show in Japanese and hear Nozawa as Goku, I still say, "That's Goku's natural voice. A perfect fit."

People need to get over it. I don't know if they are sexist or just dislike the difference, but both Sean and Nozawa are perfect for voicing Goku. They both do an excellent job and are interchangeable with one another as far as I'm concerned. It doesn't sound "off" or "different" to me like when I watch the Ocean Dub or original Saban dub (pre-Funimation era Z). As others have mentioned, many characters on TV are played by a voice actor of the opposite gender. I remember Tommy Pickles from Rugrats! was voiced by a girl. I believe Bart Simpsons of The Simpsons is voiced by a girl. They all sound perfectly fine.

While I agree with what you wrote, the Tommy and Bart examples aren't great because the former is an infant and the latter is a 10 year old. Nozawa voiced Goku as an adult.

[SpiritBombTriumphant]

As far back as Shakespeare's era there were men who played women as women weren't in plays. It was all men. When it comes to performing arts, it is the performance a person makes that decides whether or not he/she gets the role. Not their skin color, gender, age (not completely), etc.

Honestly, I don't get why it's such a big deal for people. I have seen plenty of people complain that Japanese Goku is "Grandma Goku" because of Nozawa. Am I the only person who thinks she is perfectly fine? I say this as someone who grew up with the Saban and then Funimation dub of Z on Toonami. I can watch any Dragon Ball series and when I hear Sean Schemmel as Goku, I say, "That's Goku's natural voice. A perfect fit." But then when I watch the show in Japanese and hear Nozawa as Goku, I still say, "That's Goku's natural voice. A perfect fit."

People need to get over it. I don't know if they are sexist or just dislike the difference, but both Sean and Nozawa are perfect for voicing Goku. They both do an excellent job and are interchangeable with one another as far as I'm concerned. It doesn't sound "off" or "different" to me like when I watch the Ocean Dub or original Saban dub (pre-Funimation era Z). As others have mentioned, many characters on TV are played by a voice actor of the opposite gender. I remember Tommy Pickles from Rugrats! was voiced by a girl. I believe Bart Simpsons of The Simpsons is voiced by a girl. They all sound perfectly fine.

While I agree with what you wrote, the Tommy and Bart examples aren't great because the former is an infant and the latter is a 10 year old. Nozawa voiced Goku as an adult.

I did a quick Goolag search and the only examples I see are of young boys being voiced by women in American cartoons. Nothing for adults like Nozawa does for Goku. There were quite a few results for female characters voiced by men, but they were all kids as well.

[MasenkoHA]

As far back as Shakespeare's era there were men who played women as women weren't in plays. It was all men. When it comes to performing arts, it is the performance a person makes that decides whether or not he/she gets the role. Not their skin color, gender, age (not completely), etc.

Honestly, I don't get why it's such a big deal for people. I have seen plenty of people complain that Japanese Goku is "Grandma Goku" because of Nozawa. Am I the only person who thinks she is perfectly fine? I say this as someone who grew up with the Saban and then Funimation dub of Z on Toonami. I can watch any Dragon Ball series and when I hear Sean Schemmel as Goku, I say, "That's Goku's natural voice. A perfect fit." But then when I watch the show in Japanese and hear Nozawa as Goku, I still say, "That's Goku's natural voice. A perfect fit."

People need to get over it. I don't know if they are sexist or just dislike the difference, but both Sean and Nozawa are perfect for voicing Goku. They both do an excellent job and are interchangeable with one another as far as I'm concerned. It doesn't sound "off" or "different" to me like when I watch the Ocean Dub or original Saban dub (pre-Funimation era Z). As others have mentioned, many characters on TV are played by a voice actor of the opposite gender. I remember Tommy Pickles from Rugrats! was voiced by a girl. I believe Bart Simpsons of The Simpsons is voiced by a girl. They all sound perfectly fine.

While I agree with what you wrote, the Tommy and Bart examples aren't great because the former is an infant and the latter is a 10 year old. Nozawa voiced Goku as an adult.

I did a quick Goolag search and the only examples I see are of young boys being voiced by women in American cartoons. Nothing for adults like Nozawa does for Goku. There were quite a few results for female characters voiced by men, but they were all kids as well.

Nancy Cartwright voiced Bart as an adult in the flash forward episodes so there’s that

[ABED]

Everyone points to that single episode. Hopefully it's a moment of pedantry because clearly it's used for comedic effect and it's only one episode.