Canon matters

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MasenkoHA
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Re: Canon matters

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:37 am

KBABZ wrote:
ABED wrote:
ZodaEX wrote:How so?
Because canonicity isn't a, much less the, criterion of story quality.
Very true. Let's provide three contrasting examples all dealing with the same character: Bardock. The original Bardock special is, despite it's now incompatible status, still considered to be a very good story that works entirely on its own merits.
To be fair. Bardock Father of Goku was canon to the anime’s timeline up until Toriyama heard people going “Goku’s story is kind of vaguely like Superman” and Toriyama had to be all “Hold my beer” and wrote Dragon Ball Minus

I still consider Bardock Father of Goku as having happened in the 80/90s anime timeline

To use another example, some of the best Marvel and DC tales are complete one-off stories that cannot be canon to anything else, such as Kingdom Come. That they don't link up or fit in with the established "mainline" story doesn't diminish (or accentuate) their own storytelling ability. S.
Great example. For me the best comic book stories are the ones that are standalone and don’t require 30-50 years of comic book knowledge

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Re: Canon matters

Post by ABED » Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:43 am

MasenkoHA wrote:Great example. For me the best comic book stories are the ones that are standalone and don’t require 30-50 years of comic book knowledge
Which isn't to say canon can't help a story. The Creed movies could conceivably work on their own. Imagine a world where Creed was the original and Rocky 1-6 never existed. Rocky's story about being an old man ready to die, but given a reason to keep going still works. However, it works even better because we were with him on his whole journey.

Canon can be a hindrance or a help.
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Re: Canon matters

Post by KBABZ » Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:10 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:I still consider Bardock Father of Goku as having happened in the 80/90s anime timeline
That's where I place it too, haha.

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Re: Canon matters

Post by ZodaEX » Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:13 am

MasenkoHA wrote:
KBABZ wrote:
ABED wrote:Because canonicity isn't a, much less the, criterion of story quality.
Very true. Let's provide three contrasting examples all dealing with the same character: Bardock. The original Bardock special is, despite it's now incompatible status, still considered to be a very good story that works entirely on its own merits.
To be fair. Bardock Father of Goku was canon to the anime’s timeline up until Toriyama heard people going “Goku’s story is kind of vaguely like Superman” and Toriyama had to be all “Hold my beer” and wrote Dragon Ball Minus

I still consider Bardock Father of Goku as having happened in the 80/90s anime timeline

To use another example, some of the best Marvel and DC tales are complete one-off stories that cannot be canon to anything else, such as Kingdom Come. That they don't link up or fit in with the established "mainline" story doesn't diminish (or accentuate) their own storytelling ability. S.
Great example. For me the best comic book stories are the ones that are standalone and don’t require 30-50 years of comic book knowledge
Bardock Father Of Goku was never canon (outside of your imagination) because Dragon Ball has never had canon established.

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Re: Canon matters

Post by KBABZ » Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:05 am

ZodaEX wrote:Bardock Father Of Goku was never canon (outside of your imagination) because Dragon Ball has never had canon established.
It was assumed to be applicable to the manga though for two reasons: 1) Toriyama said he liked it, buy more importantly 2) He directly included a panel of Bardock in the manga referencing the special, which until DB- over two decades later was the only depiction of that story.

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Re: Canon matters

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:22 am

KBABZ wrote:
ZodaEX wrote:Bardock Father Of Goku was never canon (outside of your imagination) because Dragon Ball has never had canon established.
It was assumed to be applicable to the manga though for two reasons: 1) Toriyama said he liked it, buy more importantly 2) He directly included a panel of Bardock in the manga referencing the special, which until DB- over two decades later was the only depiction of that story.
That and it fits in the old anime just fine

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Re: Canon matters

Post by KBABZ » Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:30 am

MasenkoHA wrote:
KBABZ wrote:
ZodaEX wrote:Bardock Father Of Goku was never canon (outside of your imagination) because Dragon Ball has never had canon established.
It was assumed to be applicable to the manga though for two reasons: 1) Toriyama said he liked it, buy more importantly 2) He directly included a panel of Bardock in the manga referencing the special, which until DB- over two decades later was the only depiction of that story.
That and it fits in the old anime just fine
Well yeah, back in the day where the anime was considered the manga + more, rather than its own thing like it tends to today.

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Re: Canon matters

Post by ZodaEX » Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:42 am

KBABZ wrote:
ZodaEX wrote:Bardock Father Of Goku was never canon (outside of your imagination) because Dragon Ball has never had canon established.
It was assumed to be applicable to the manga though for two reasons: 1) Toriyama said he liked it, buy more importantly 2) He directly included a panel of Bardock in the manga referencing the special, which until DB- over two decades later was the only depiction of that story.
A TV special being applicable does not = a TV special being canon. Those words are not synonyms and mean completely different things.

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Re: Canon matters

Post by KBABZ » Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:03 am

ZodaEX wrote:
KBABZ wrote:
ZodaEX wrote:Bardock Father Of Goku was never canon (outside of your imagination) because Dragon Ball has never had canon established.
It was assumed to be applicable to the manga though for two reasons: 1) Toriyama said he liked it, buy more importantly 2) He directly included a panel of Bardock in the manga referencing the special, which until DB- over two decades later was the only depiction of that story.
A TV special being applicable does not = a TV special being canon. Those words are not synonyms and mean completely different things.
It does when Dragon Ball otherwise doesn't have any established canon or what goes where.

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Re: Canon matters

Post by ZodaEX » Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:17 am

KBABZ wrote:
ZodaEX wrote:
KBABZ wrote: It was assumed to be applicable to the manga though for two reasons: 1) Toriyama said he liked it, buy more importantly 2) He directly included a panel of Bardock in the manga referencing the special, which until DB- over two decades later was the only depiction of that story.
A TV special being applicable does not = a TV special being canon. Those words are not synonyms and mean completely different things.
It does when Dragon Ball otherwise doesn't have any established canon or what goes where.
You are wrong. What you are talking about is the canon of your own mind. A "head cannon" if you will.

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Re: Canon matters

Post by ZodaEX » Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:18 am

ZodaEX wrote:
KBABZ wrote:
ZodaEX wrote: A TV special being applicable does not = a TV special being canon. Those words are not synonyms and mean completely different things.
It does when Dragon Ball otherwise doesn't have any established canon or what goes where.
You are wrong. What you are talking about is the canon of your own mind. A "head cannon" if you will. One's own opinion does not affect canon unless they are the canonical collector of the words within said canon

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