Canon matters

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Re: Canon matters

Post by Robo4900 » Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:49 pm

ABED wrote:
To use the example you gave, DB movie 1 flows nicely into movie 2, which nicely goes to movie 3, so they have continuity with each other. But those movies don't have continuity with either the manga or the anime from which they're based because they were never intended to be (and have way too many contradictions). It's separate from the word canon because a work doesn't need to be canon to have continuity with something else in the franchise (again, the first three DB movies are good examples of this).
Orrrrr, you can say they are not canon to the manga. So while I agree that they are different concepts, in certain contexts they can be used to explain the same thing because the concepts share commonalities.
Except that's not a very useful thing to say, when compared to saying what the work actually does relate to.
Yes, saying "The movies are not canon to the manga, therefore not canon" is arguably true, it doesn't tell you an awful lot. If everything is a case of "Is or isn't canon", then you're limiting the scope of what you can say, and how useful what you'll say on this subject is. For instance, if I wanted to watch Z movie 13, it would be very easy to say "Well, it takes place after DB and Z" than it is to say "it's not canon".
ABED wrote:
Continuity: What other works does this story directly relate to?
This seems needlessly complicated. What other works deal with this sort of thing where movies aren't canon to the main work but share a timeline?
If we make this less specific, and turn it into the more useful question of "What other works deal with this sort of thing where some pieces of media aren't canon to the main work but share a timeline?", it becomes much easier to answer, since we can involve the expanded universe works of Star Wars, Star Trek, Doctor Who, or even go into retconned pieces of comic universe like DC or Marvel. DC and Marvel are a particularly fun case, since there are often comics from different continuities running concurrently.
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Re: Canon matters

Post by Hulk10 » Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:50 pm

There really isn't any official established canon.
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Re: Canon matters

Post by ABED » Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:28 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
ABED wrote:
To use the example you gave, DB movie 1 flows nicely into movie 2, which nicely goes to movie 3, so they have continuity with each other. But those movies don't have continuity with either the manga or the anime from which they're based because they were never intended to be (and have way too many contradictions). It's separate from the word canon because a work doesn't need to be canon to have continuity with something else in the franchise (again, the first three DB movies are good examples of this).
Orrrrr, you can say they are not canon to the manga. So while I agree that they are different concepts, in certain contexts they can be used to explain the same thing because the concepts share commonalities.
Except that's not a very useful thing to say, when compared to saying what the work actually does relate to.
Yes, saying "The movies are not canon to the manga, therefore not canon" is arguably true, it doesn't tell you an awful lot. If everything is a case of "Is or isn't canon", then you're limiting the scope of what you can say, and how useful what you'll say on this subject is. For instance, if I wanted to watch Z movie 13, it would be very easy to say "Well, it takes place after DB and Z" than it is to say "it's not canon".
ABED wrote:
Continuity: What other works does this story directly relate to?
This seems needlessly complicated. What other works deal with this sort of thing where movies aren't canon to the main work but share a timeline?
If we make this less specific, and turn it into the more useful question of "What other works deal with this sort of thing where some pieces of media aren't canon to the main work but share a timeline?", it becomes much easier to answer, since we can involve the expanded universe works of Star Wars, Star Trek, Doctor Who, or even go into retconned pieces of comic universe like DC or Marvel. DC and Marvel are a particularly fun case, since there are often comics from different continuities running concurrently.
What makes you think it shouldn't limit the scope? Movie 13 isn't canon and not in continuity. If someone is asking me if it's canon, and I give my answer, I've answered their specific question clearly and we can move on to another point instead of having to clarify my response. The most you could say, unless one of the producers said so specifically or events from it were referenced in the series, is that it COULD take place after Buu's defeat. It's not in continuity because it's not canon.

It sounds like you think there can only be a single canon.
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Re: Canon matters

Post by KBABZ » Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:53 pm

ABED wrote:
Continuity: What other works does this story directly relate to?
This seems needlessly complicated. What other works deal with this sort of thing where movies aren't canon to the main work but share a timeline?
Welcome to the wonderfully complicated world of the Transformers timeline, where both a promotional cartoon and a promotional comic book based on that cartoon can have separate continuities that link together thanks to a CG show in the 90s including a really cool plot point in the final episode that itself has two separate manga continuations that may link up with each other but only one of which actually connects with the second and third seasons of said 90s show.

Another fairly good comparison would be Sailor Moon. Like Dragon Ball, it has a core manga made by the original creator, an anime that is more popular than said manga, and a collection of animated movies that, depending on which one you're talking about may or may not be canon to the anime but are definitely not the original manga (it also has an anime that tries to be more faithful to the source material). Two of those animated movies definitely fit incredibly well with the anime specifically, while the third one is so different that, despite trying to appear that it fits with the anime, it doesn't actually fit anywhere within the anime's timeline and so just sits out on the side weirdly. Sounds rather familiar, right?

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Re: Canon matters

Post by ABED » Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:57 pm

But the term continuity has been around forever. It wasn't created for this specific situation.

I dont' have a set of criteria for what I consider a good reason to throw out some continuity and when to keep it. I'm fine with Halloween tossing much of its continuity or canon out if it leads to a good follow up. I like Halloween 2 (not the Rob Zombie version) and feel it's a worthy sequel, but since the writers didn't want the familial connection with Michael and Laurie, out it goes. I haven't yet seen the new film, but I heard it's good, so I'm fine tossing out the other movies. Time certainly helps.
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Re: Canon matters

Post by Robo4900 » Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:45 pm

ABED wrote:It sounds like you think there can only be a single canon.
No. In fact, there should be at least three continuities. But really, to account for everything, you end up getting into a lot of nitty-gritty details that are hard to deal with. Explaining things in terms of each work taking other works into account is just the simplest route.
Talking in terms of any number of rigid canons is just silly, in my opinion. Just talk about relative continuity, and it solves everything, and deals with any "is this canon?" problems by saying "Any singular rigid canon would be stupid in something as messy and inconsistent as Dragon Ball continuity. Just enjoy what you're watching, and pay vague attention to what it follows on from"
Where's Transformers Prime on there?
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Re: Canon matters

Post by KBABZ » Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:16 pm

ABED wrote:But the term continuity has been around forever. It wasn't created for this specific situation.
Neither was canon, which is a word that originates with the Church determining which religious texts are regarded as authoritative scripture, such as the Old and New Testaments. It's now more commonly used in nerd culture like with Star Wars.
ABED wrote:I dont' have a set of criteria for what I consider a good reason to throw out some continuity and when to keep it. I'm fine with Halloween tossing much of its continuity or canon out if it leads to a good follow up. I like Halloween 2 (not the Rob Zombie version) and feel it's a worthy sequel, but since the writers didn't want the familial connection with Michael and Laurie, out it goes. I haven't yet seen the new film, but I heard it's good, so I'm fine tossing out the other movies. Time certainly helps.
Just because something isn't canon or in continuity with the "main" works like the manga or the anime doesn't mean they can't be fun stories that people remember fondly (The Sara Chronicles TV Show is this for many Terminator fans). To give a Dragon Ball example, the Yamcha Reincarnation manga is an incredibly unique idea and story regardless of the fact that it isn't in continuity with anything else in the franchise. And how many times have we discussed and reflected upon GT's positive aspects since Super came out and rendered it practically irrelevant?
Robo4900 wrote:
Where's Transformers Prime on there?
That picture was created in mid-2008, so Prime didn't exist yet and only the first of the Michael Bay movies was released at that point (ahh, good times...).

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Re: Canon matters

Post by ABED » Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:36 pm

Neither was canon, which is a word that originates with the Church determining which religious texts are regarded as authoritative scripture, such as the Old and New Testaments. It's now more commonly used in nerd culture like with Star Wars.
My point was you've created a different definition for continuity. THe way canon is used hasn't changed from when it was first created, it's simply been applied to a different context.
Just because something isn't canon or in continuity with the "main" works like the manga or the anime doesn't mean they can't be fun stories that people remember fondly
Agreed. I enjoy a lot of the filler.
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Re: Canon matters

Post by Robo4900 » Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:43 pm

KBABZ wrote:Just because something isn't canon or in continuity with the "main" works like the manga or the anime doesn't mean they can't be fun stories that people remember fondly
Yes, indeed. And that's a good way to say that declaring a rigid canon isn't all bad. But what does that actually mean, and what does it actually give you over a much freer open continuity where all that matters is what a given work takes into account?
All it really gives is a rigid "this is the works that are canon", and that ultimately is a useless thing to have, since strictly speaking, that would only be the original manga, then either the Super anime, or the BOG+RF movies and the Super manga, depending on which version you prefer. And you see even at this, there's the problem of which version of the Super era is "Canon". And even if you did sort that out, you gain nothing from having this rigid idea of a handful of the massive amount of works put out over the past 30 years that encompass Dragon Ball, so at best, this rigid canon really doesn't matter that much, which presents the problem of "Why even spend the effort of figuring this out in the first place, then?"
Realistically, these aren't problems, it's just something to quibble pointlessly over while everyone else just enjoys whatever parts they want to enjoy, paying attention to simply "Whatever is canon to what I'm watching." Because ultimately, that's all that matters, and that's all that's of any use.
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Re: Canon matters

Post by KBABZ » Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:23 pm

ABED wrote:
Neither was canon, which is a word that originates with the Church determining which religious texts are regarded as authoritative scripture, such as the Old and New Testaments. It's now more commonly used in nerd culture like with Star Wars.
My point was you've created a different definition for continuity. THe way canon is used hasn't changed from when it was first created, it's simply been applied to a different context.
I disagree. The Transformers wiki has a page specifically about continuity and how to handle it in the Transformers franchise. There, continuity is defined as:
...a fictional universe or timeline that is characterized by recurring characters and settings and an internal consistency with regards to characterization and depicted events.
This is different from the definition of the word canon on that page, which is:
...whether [a work that is a part of the franchise] was officially licensed/approved or not. If so, it is canon... for some continuity. If not, it is not canon at all.
---
Robo4900 wrote:Realistically, these aren't problems, it's just something to quibble pointlessly over while everyone else just enjoys whatever parts they want to enjoy, paying attention to simply "Whatever is canon to what I'm watching." Because ultimately, that's all that matters, and that's all that's of any use.
Although of course for some fans canon is used to justify their personal preferences and favourites regarding their own head-canon as a means to win arguments and sort out "good entries from bad". The most popular being "Broly is canon to the anime", "GT isn't canon to Z" and "DB- isn't canon to the manga".

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Re: Canon matters

Post by ABED » Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:39 pm

The "term" head-canon just confuses matters.

I'd rather go with someone's opinion I trust about what stories to read or see than just what is considered canon.
whether [a work that is a part of the franchise] was officially licensed/approved or not. If so, it is canon... for some continuity. If not, it is not canon at all.
In other words, it's canon if it's official and in continuity.
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Re: Canon matters

Post by Robo4900 » Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:36 pm

KBABZ wrote:
Robo4900 wrote:Realistically, these aren't problems, it's just something to quibble pointlessly over while everyone else just enjoys whatever parts they want to enjoy, paying attention to simply "Whatever is canon to what I'm watching." Because ultimately, that's all that matters, and that's all that's of any use.
Although of course for some fans canon is used to justify their personal preferences and favourites regarding their own head-canon as a means to win arguments and sort out "good entries from bad". The most popular being "Broly is canon to the anime", "GT isn't canon to Z" and "DB- isn't canon to the manga".
And people who do that can bite my shiny metal ass. Even if a rigid canon structure made sense for Dragon Ball, stuff like GT and the filler from the original anime run would still be quintessential parts of my enjoyment of the franchise, and nothing will ever change that.

You can have your opinions, and in fact, justifying your opinions can be a very interesting exercise, but getting into "this is better because it's canon" or other nonsense is just ludicrous. If the best someone can come up with for why I'm wrong about Z movie 11 being great is that "it's not canon", then I'd rather not waste my time trying to talk to this person.
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Re: Canon matters

Post by KBABZ » Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:13 pm

Robo4900 wrote:And people who do that can bite my shiny metal ass. Even if a rigid canon structure made sense for Dragon Ball, stuff like GT and the filler from the original anime run would still be quintessential parts of my enjoyment of the franchise, and nothing will ever change that.

You can have your opinions, and in fact, justifying your opinions can be a very interesting exercise, but getting into "this is better because it's canon" or other nonsense is just ludicrous. If the best someone can come up with for why I'm wrong about Z movie 11 being great is that "it's not canon", then I'd rather not waste my time trying to talk to this person.
Totally agreed. While I skip it every time now, the expanded filler arc involving Colonel Silver is where I hold some of my fondest memories of Dragon Ball as a kid (particularly that episode where Goku had his clothes stolen by the ragabond kid), but at the same time I'm not going to pretend that it fits with the manga. Canon doesn't mean "whether or not you're allowed to enjoy something".

ADDENDUM: Just finished listening to episode 457 of the podcast, and it was about canon! Key to understand it, as least as far as I understood it, is that in Japan they don't have a word with the same type of baggage of "real/not real" that the word canon does, and instead it's more like "another dimension", almost like alternate timelines or mirror universes in Star Trek. They're alternatives, not stuff that didn't happen. This pairs up very nicely with how Toei and Toriyama think of how the various works do or do not interconnect with each other, and with how Toei might not want to discredit GT like that so they can sell us more Heroes cards and Xenoverse DLC.

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Re: Canon matters

Post by Grimlock » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:37 am

Nice to see other people using that wonderful source. It was actually that article that made me rethink everything I thought I knew about canonicity. Like I said once, I used to be one those people who blindly thought there was a canon, but thanks to my willing in learning things, I found that article some years ago and it opened my eyes and my mind.

You cannot get a more clear difference between canonicity and continuity than this:
Transformers Wiki wrote:the term has also been adopted in the discussion of most long-running media franchises to mean any event, character, or location within the fiction that is considered to have been "real" with respect to that fictional continuity.
Like I have been always saying in this website, canonicity would be the acknowledgement of someone or something within a continuity (the flow of events in a certain order). Continuity is generally done unconsciously while canonicity is made by official statement, no official statement, no canon established at all, which is the case of Dragon Ball (or you can start from the point that everything is canonical, also possible, I guess. You'd just have to figure out which continuity that work belongs to).


Oh, Transformers Wiki, or better yet, that Transformers website is reliable, it is not a Dragon Ball Wiki. Actually, last time I checked, not even people with an account could freely edit things in there. And even when someone posts something that is not real, it will get removed. So it is a nice place to learn things if people haven't already. :thumbup:
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Re: Canon matters

Post by ABED » Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:05 am

I know the Bible needed an authority to state which books were true because they were written by various authors. DB was written by one author so you don't need an explicit statement, just like you don't need an explicit statement from Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.

What would it mean to say Toriyama's original story isn't canon?

Continuity in this context isn't about the flow of events in a certain order. That's chronology. Continuity in stories is about consistency of your story and characters, hence why Goku searching for the DB's after only 8 months since the previous wish is a continuity error.

While I think paying attention to details matters, so something like the abovementioned error does bug me, I can get over them if I enjoy the story enough. In That 70's Show, Donna has a sister and then doesn't. Not a big deal.
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Re: Canon matters

Post by Bebi Hatchiyack » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:46 am

KBABZ wrote:
ABED wrote:
Continuity: What other works does this story directly relate to?
This seems needlessly complicated. What other works deal with this sort of thing where movies aren't canon to the main work but share a timeline?
Welcome to the wonderfully complicated world of the Transformers timeline, where both a promotional cartoon and a promotional comic book based on that cartoon can have separate continuities that link together thanks to a CG show in the 90s including a really cool plot point in the final episode that itself has two separate manga continuations that may link up with each other but only one of which actually connects with the second and third seasons of said 90s show.

Another fairly good comparison would be Sailor Moon. Like Dragon Ball, it has a core manga made by the original creator, an anime that is more popular than said manga, and a collection of animated movies that, depending on which one you're talking about may or may not be canon to the anime but are definitely not the original manga (it also has an anime that tries to be more faithful to the source material). Two of those animated movies definitely fit incredibly well with the anime specifically, while the third one is so different that, despite trying to appear that it fits with the anime, it doesn't actually fit anywhere within the anime's timeline and so just sits out on the side weirdly. Sounds rather familiar, right?
That's also remind me of Saint Seiya where you have a TV Serie which doesn't follow much the manga, a collection of movies and several spin off series (either in manga or in anime format) Sorting Saint Seiya timeline is kinda a pain in the ass if I dare say so.
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Re: Canon matters

Post by Mister_Popo » Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:23 pm

Shocker coming up guys ...

The Broly movie is considered official "canon" or "legitimate sequel" to Dragonball's original manga...
https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1057 ... Fpage-5152
Canon is a typical western word, but they probably mean exactly the same thing.

The manga is canon, and the sequel is considered canon to the original manga.
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Re: Canon matters

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:46 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:Shocker coming up guys ...

The Broly movie is considered official "canon" or "legitimate sequel" to Dragonball's original manga...
https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1057 ... Fpage-5152
Canon is a typical western word, but they probably mean exactly the same thing.

The manga is canon, and the sequel is considered canon to the original manga.
Things don't always have to be overly complicated in life, do they?
I know it's already been referenced in this thread, but we talk about this specific phrasing (and others!) in our latest podcast episode... so if you want more context and comparisons, there ya' go.
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Re: Canon matters

Post by Hulk10 » Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:46 pm

Canon is a never ending debate...…… Ugh so annoying.
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Re: Canon matters

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:55 pm

Hulk10 wrote:Canon is a never ending debate...…… Ugh so annoying.
This isn't a particularly worthwhile contribution to the discussion. If you find it so annoying, you're under no obligation to respond or partake.
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