How would you write a Grand Finale arc for the franchise?

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ABED
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Re: How would you write a Grand Finale arc for the franchise?

Post by ABED » Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:21 pm

zarmack wrote:
ABED wrote: Bardock is different. He's an antihero and the protagonist of the movie.
90's Bardock was portrayed as inherently no different from the rest of the full-blooded Saiyans. Him being a protagonist and antihero makes no difference.
It does when he's the lead of the story. You're being asked to empathize with him.
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Re: How would you write a Grand Finale arc for the franchise?

Post by zarmack » Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:30 pm

ABED wrote:
zarmack wrote:
ABED wrote: Bardock is different. He's an antihero and the protagonist of the movie.
90's Bardock was portrayed as inherently no different from the rest of the full-blooded Saiyans. Him being a protagonist and antihero makes no difference.
It does when he's the lead of the story. You're being asked to empathize with him.
Yet his personality and morality is no different from the other Saiyans, so he is still no exception.

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Re: How would you write a Grand Finale arc for the franchise?

Post by Shineman » Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:29 am

TheMikado wrote:
Shineman wrote:
Kunzait_83 wrote:snip
God damn, now that's an interesting analysis of the Saiyans (which I guess it's funny how Turles is more cunning than a fighter). How would Broly, from the original films, fit into the concept of your average Saiyan?
I wouldn’t call it interesting it’s how it’s original was written. I’ve gone in-depth multiple types describing how Broly (original) was the essentially the epitome of a Saiyan personified. He bullied others and was particularly cruel and sadistic to those too weak to defend themselves and relished in violence, not necessarily a challenge.

It would also make sense that getting beaten up or defeated by someone they perceived weaker would mentally break a Saiyan due to their “bully” nature. Even Broly seems to be mentally broken in movie 10 and raditz, Vegeta, and Nappa all groveled like pitiful cowards like a standard bully. It’s a shame that Saiyan nature has been redefined as the original concept was much more interesting to watch a race of galactic bullies.
I say it is rather insightful analysis on the difference between the behavior of the Saiyans and Goku for those whose exposure is either the Funimation dub or this idea that Saiyans are a race that always seeks out stronger opponents. It serves a good job detailing Vegeta’s actions throughout the series until his actual breaking point against Majin Boo, where, for the first time, Vegeta actively fought against someone without throwing a hissy fit of the matter. Dragon Ball GT defines Vegeta’s character as a man who actually seeks enjoyment of the fight and/or goes along with Goku on the plan. A good example is the scene where Vegeta challenge Goku after the world tournament; the latter opted out due to his stomach growling, making Vegeta laughed aloud.

That moment, I think, is a major step in his character than the same old “that’s impossible” and “I’m the strongest there is!!!!” shtick he had throughout majority of his time in the series.

I brought up Broly because, Broly is everything Vegeta thought he was, but he was not. Vegeta thought himself as an unstoppable force of nature—but he wasn’t. Vegeta, for majority of the series, used his strength as a means of asserting his dominance on to others and his actions committed without question. Yet, Broly, despite being a sadistic, destructive being who indulges in violence, he loves, and thoroughly, his fights; he flat out praises Goku and the others for their eagerness to keep standing up afterwards, itching for a challenge—something I don’t think Vegeta would enjoy seeing in his battles. I think Broly serves an a different side of Saiyan brutality, but places on an extreme scale, something than even Vegeta couldn’t go that far, since he just want everyone to know how big and bad he is.
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Re: How would you write a Grand Finale arc for the franchise?

Post by zarmack » Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:44 am

Shineman wrote:Dragon Ball GT defines Vegeta’s character as a man who actually seeks enjoyment of the fight and/or goes along with Goku on the plan. A good example is the scene where Vegeta challenge Goku after the world tournament; the latter opted out due to his stomach growling, making Vegeta laughed aloud.

That moment, I think, is a major step in his character than the same old “that’s impossible” and “I’m the strongest there is!!!!” shtick he had throughout majority of his time in the series.
You sure about that lol?: https://twitter.com/MJxTV/status/1002445514724474881

Also, he didn't seem to have any enjoyment in fighting Super 17 or Omega Shenron either.

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Re: How would you write a Grand Finale arc for the franchise?

Post by zarmack » Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:49 am

ABED wrote:To stay in shape. Genuine enjoyment.
You don't need to train in combat to stay in shape, so that's a bad argument. Plus, he flat out told Gohan in the Buu arc that he continued to train for fighting before he found out that Goku was coming back.

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Re: How would you write a Grand Finale arc for the franchise?

Post by ABED » Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:16 am

zarmack wrote:
ABED wrote:
zarmack wrote:
90's Bardock was portrayed as inherently no different from the rest of the full-blooded Saiyans. Him being a protagonist and antihero makes no difference.
It does when he's the lead of the story. You're being asked to empathize with him.
Yet his personality and morality is no different from the other Saiyans, so he is still no exception.
Unlike his other bretheren, he's shown to genuinely care about his teammates.
You don't need to train in combat to stay in shape, so that's a bad argument. Plus, he flat out told Gohan in the Buu arc that he continued to train for fighting before he found out that Goku was coming back.
Not sure what you mean by "train in combat."
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Re: How would you write a Grand Finale arc for the franchise?

Post by zarmack » Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:55 am

ABED wrote:
zarmack wrote:
ABED wrote: It does when he's the lead of the story. You're being asked to empathize with him.
Yet his personality and morality is no different from the other Saiyans, so he is still no exception.
Unlike his other bretheren, he's shown to genuinely care about his teammates.
You don't need to train in combat to stay in shape, so that's a bad argument. Plus, he flat out told Gohan in the Buu arc that he continued to train for fighting before he found out that Goku was coming back.
Not sure what you mean by "train in combat."
1. He was still a remorseless mass murderer like the other Saiyans.

2. He's training in the gravity room all day for 7 years straight, obviously with the intention to fight.

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Re: How would you write a Grand Finale arc for the franchise?

Post by ABED » Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:12 am

2. He's training in the gravity room all day for 7 years straight, obviously with the intention to fight.
For sport, not his usual MO. It does make sense because Vegeta is changing. He wants to get stronger for its own sake, not to dominate like he previously did.

Even given all the things you say about Bardock, he's still shown to care about his teammates, not typical from what we've seen out of the Saiyans. It doesn't make him a good guy, but it's still a trait that allows the audience to at least empathize with him to some degree, otherwise, why should we give a shit if Bardock doesn't?

Anyway, this is all a digression. There have been several endings for DB. I don't know what else they could do to not feel like "been there, done that." I'd still like to see it Goku-centric and not some big to do where it becomes about the huge universal stakes and not about the character(s) we care about.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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