Does Dragon Ball have the largest, least toxic, fandom in existence of fictional franchises?

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Re: Does Dragon Ball have the largest, least toxic, fandom in existence of fictional franchises?

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:34 pm

Majin Buu wrote:
zarmack wrote:Pan never becoming a SSJ in GT was a stupid missed opportunity
Agreed. Perhaps the biggest missed opportunity in GT (along with not bringing Uub along for the "Grand Tour").
I mean, they only had 64 episodes. I struggle to think of a place she could have transformed without it being totally superfluous to the plot.

As for Oob, to be fair, he's not really got much character to him; he's only cool in theory, and only because of his strength, which... Well... Okay, yes, Goku thought he had potential at the tournament, and in GT held his own pretty well against Goku... In base form.
It'd be hard to justify Oob going along, and even if you could, he'd be a pretty unnecessary addition to the already pretty rounded quartet of Goku, Pan, Trunks, and Gill. All we know about him is he's pretty strong compared to base form Goku, and he's pretty shy and humble. I dunno... I just don't see Oob staying on earth as a problem.

Oob probably could have done more on earth and the Tsufurian planet when Baby was around, and I'd totally agree with the argument that it could have been fun to have Oob join the hunt for the Evil Dragons at the end since Trunks stayed behind on that, but... Well...

Even with all this in mind, all I see is just minor changes that bring a "Kinda cool" factor; no real value to plot, theme, or character. Even in the Evil Dragons storyline, where there was space in the cast, do you really want to effectively introduce someone new for the final arc? (And yes, it would be an introduction, because we know nothing about him. Any character development would be entirely new territory. Would it be better to squeeze him in there, or just let the simple effectiveness of that last storyline just work unhindered by having to also introduce an entirely new character? Would you take away Pan's moment against the water dragon so Oob can get a moment? Or the Goku and Pan duo moment against the swamp dragon?...)

And what story is there to tell with Oob that GT didn't already do? He'd already trained with Goku and reached the crazy new heights every fighting character gets to do, he had his moment in the Baby arc with his merger with Boo, which also gave Boo a moment, and was the setup for Mr. Satan's character stuff he would largely do in that one-off tournament episode, which also functioned as something of a character moment for Majoob himself. For someone without any developed character, he did surprisingly well in the 64-episode victory lap of the 1984-1997 era of Dragon Ball.

I feel like this is a very Super-era criticism, with the mindset of "more characters doing more things, especially fighting = better series", which totally opposes GT's approach of doing things minimalistically, telling its story with exactly who and what is necessary, and only using the characters who need to be involved, or who could contribute a real ton to that part of the story.

Throwing more characters at a story doesn't make it better, especially if they're some nobody in an at-the-time 10-year-long story looking to take things back to basics and streamline things a bit.

If a character doesn't really have anything to them, then they can really drag a story down. See: Geran/Jiren, who people only care about because his fights looked pretty. Replace him with someone who's actually interesting, perhaps a fun villainous type who's already around, and you have a much more fun final battle.
(I'm talking about Freeza. Somehow centring the final fight around Freeza turning on his team would have been much more interesting. Not hard to justfy either, honestly. Practically writes itself. He makes a deal with another universe, and tries to take out the rest of his team so that universe can win. Just have Goku get knocked out and you can have a final climactic Vegeta vs Freeza match which, unlike Goku vs Geran, actually has personal stakes to it, and you've got an instantly better conclusion to the arc. Best part is, they know if Freeza loses, he'd have still made a deal that guarantees his revival anyway, so even if Frezea loses, he still wins in the end. Maybe Freeza even plans this from the start, and only uses it as an opportunity to study the way Vegeta and Goku fight, for reference when he fights them when he's revived. This is just me spitballing, and yet it's at least more interesting than Geran's thing, even if it's a roughly-written mess... And all of the interesting aspect here just stems from Freeza being a fun, delightfully evil personality in contrast to Geran's utter lack of any personality. My point here isn't necessarily to mock Super, though I do enjoy doing that, my point is that uninteresting characters, and overcomplicating a simple setup by bogging it down with some newguy with nothing really to offer aside from "Is strong" is just a bad idea)
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Re: Does Dragon Ball have the largest, least toxic, fandom in existence of fictional franchises?

Post by Majin Buu » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:49 pm

Robo4900 wrote:snip
Just because Uub's personality was barely established going into the show doesn't mean it was impossible to flesh out one for him. Taking him along would have provided several opportunities to do that, and a talented writing staff could have found a way to do so without taking away from Pan or Trunks. Uub was pretty much a blank slate that they could have done anything with and instead they chose to do very little. Also, I'm well aware that Dragon Ball is not an ensemble cast (I'm currently making that exact point in another thread), but Uub is Goku's freaking student for crying out loud, I think that's pretty significant enough to be more than the footnote it ended up being. And I'm not even saying he had to be the hero or anything, just make him more involved in the plot.

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Re: Does Dragon Ball have the largest, least toxic, fandom in existence of fictional franchises?

Post by zarmack » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:56 pm

Majin Buu wrote:
Just because Uub's personality was barely established going into the show doesn't mean it was impossible to flesh out one for him.
Exactly. Its never too late to develop a character that barely got any in the first place.

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Re: Does Dragon Ball have the largest, least toxic, fandom in existence of fictional franchises?

Post by ABED » Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:08 pm

I just don't care about the idea of him. Pan's relationship with her grandfather and vice versa is much more interesting to me.
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Re: Does Dragon Ball have the largest, least toxic, fandom in existence of fictional franchises?

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:12 pm

ABED wrote:I just don't care about the idea of him. Pan's relationship with her grandfather and vice versa is much more interesting to me.
Agreed, honestly.

I don't see what's wrong with Oob just being the guy who Goku taught for a few years, who shows up from time to time, mostly for his interaction with Mr. Satan influenced by Boo.
Dragon Ball is a goofy kids cartoon from a long time ago. You take it too seriously at your own peril.
Debate the plot, characters, adaptations, dubs, etc., criticise the home video, but never lose sight of the fact that it's all just entertainment. You're supposed to enjoy it. If you're not enjoying it, just walk away.

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Re: Does Dragon Ball have the largest, least toxic, fandom in existence of fictional franchises?

Post by Yuli Ban » Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:28 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:
Yuli Ban wrote:if Gohan were just now introduced and did what Caulifla has done, I'd call him a cheap Gary Stu (and it'd actually fit since he's literally the son of the main character and a princess, whom even enemies respect, unlike Caulifla who is just an overpowered punk/outlaw).
Wait, what? :wtf:
It's been answered long ago, but just to make me feel like I accomplished something today— Chi Chi is also known as the Fire Mountain Princess (or the Princess of Mt. Frypan), a la Princess Iron Fan. So even though it has no bearing on the story nowadays, she is technically royalty.



And because I don't acknowledge gender roles except for sometimes, that means Gohan is a princess too. All hail Princess Rice.
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Re: Does Dragon Ball have the largest, least toxic, fandom in existence of fictional franchises?

Post by Soppa Saia People » Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:34 pm

^ as someone who hated most of their childhood because of them, yea gender roles are dumb.
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Re: Does Dragon Ball have the largest, least toxic, fandom in existence of fictional franchises?

Post by ulisa » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:02 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
ABED wrote:I just don't care about the idea of him. Pan's relationship with her grandfather and vice versa is much more interesting to me.
Agreed, honestly.

I don't see what's wrong with Oob just being the guy who Goku taught for a few years, who shows up from time to time, mostly for his interaction with Mr. Satan influenced by Boo.
I’ll agree to this as well. My issue with Uub is that his role as Goku’s student could have been filled much better by Pan, someone that they’d already established had a close bond with Goku.

I wouldn’t have been opposed to Uub showing up on occasion but if anyone was going to continue Goku’s teachings and skills, Pan made a lot more sense.
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Re: Does Dragon Ball have the largest, least toxic, fandom in existence of fictional franchises?

Post by zarmack » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:37 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Majin Buu wrote:
zarmack wrote:Pan never becoming a SSJ in GT was a stupid missed opportunity
Agreed. Perhaps the biggest missed opportunity in GT (along with not bringing Uub along for the "Grand Tour").
I mean, they only had 64 episodes. I struggle to think of a place she could have transformed without it being totally superfluous to the plot.

She was the deuteragonist of GT and got more screen-time than everyone except Goku. They could have done way better with her.

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Re: Does Dragon Ball have the largest, least toxic, fandom in existence of fictional franchises?

Post by Yuli Ban » Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:12 am

zarmack wrote:
Robo4900 wrote:
Majin Buu wrote:
Agreed. Perhaps the biggest missed opportunity in GT (along with not bringing Uub along for the "Grand Tour").
I mean, they only had 64 episodes. I struggle to think of a place she could have transformed without it being totally superfluous to the plot.
She was the deuteragonist of GT and got more screen-time than everyone except Goku. They could have done way better with her.
Fixed? I think you messed up the quotes there.
Anyway, the meme answer that can be given here is: "Don't you know that GT stands for 'Goku Time'? How dare anyone suggests someone other than Goku does something awesome in Dragon Ball!!"
The sad thing is, it's not even that far from the truth considering that's the mindset Toei seems to have. Mainly nowadays, I admit, but you can't deny that it was already showing up in GT.

The problem with Dragon Ball as it is nowadays is that it is completely "The Goku Show" when it was originally written with Goku as protagonist but more characters in focus. I mentioned it before that this parallels Journey to the West— ask anyone who the main character of JTTW is and they'll say "Sun Wukong" instead of the correct answer, "Tripitaka". Dragon Ball is indeed Goku's story, but Toriyama's legendary procrastination with writing it ironically meant that Goku wasn't always the main focus. And this was at its peak in Dragon Ball Z. Seriously, when you actually look at it, it's amazing the lengths Toriyama went to keep Goku away from the action. But that's what made late DB/Z so good— it forced other characters and their arcs into the spotlight since Goku legitimately could not always be there. This also had the effect of making Goku's presence feel much more special and well earned.

After he completed his Hero's Journey and his son followed suit, Son Goku became more of a detriment to the story than anything.

Imagine if the Star Wars sequels went out of their way to include Luke Skywalker as the main character, even though he has little reason to lead the story. They'd be even more divisive! But that's what Dragon Ball's been doing ever since Goku came back for Buu. And it first became a major problem in GT as Toei was paranoid about the prospect of having Goku away from the spotlight. They didn't allow anyone else to come anywhere close to his level or upstage him— Uub's transformation into Majuub should have been one of the highlights of the entire franchise, but it's little more than a throwaway scene few mention. Vegeta becoming a Super Saiyan 4 should have been a mighty moment for his character, but instead everyone considers it an asspull and SS4 Vegeta to be little more than fusion fodder. And, most infamously, Pan should have become a Super Saiyan. If not a Super Saiyan, then she should have achieved the Ultimate state like her father before her. So why didn't she?


Because whatever she could have accomplished was time better spent focusing on Son Goku! ~ Toei.


Majuub was literally dicked out of any special scene where he proved himself against Bebi Vegeta— I haven't even watched that episode in years, and yet I know it was just an episode. That was it. He transformed, tore Mr. Buu away from Satan, and then tried to fight off Bebi. And he failed miserably within a single episode. He then went on to not accomplish a damn thing for the rest of the series except holding off Omega Shenlong for a brief moment.

The exact same fate would have befallen Super Saiyan Pan, unfortunately. She could have transformed against Bebi or Rildo, but that would have led to a single episode of her doing something before Goku stepped in. And then we'd see Super Saiyan Pan but she'd accomplish the exact same amount as she did in the series in our timeline: nothing. And we'd be angry as to why female Super Saiyans are useless rather than nonexistent over the past 20 years up until Caulifla and Kale redeemed the transformation and held their own against a literal god before fusing.


By the way, same problem in Super as in GT— try to think about how many major moments in Super happened sans Goku's direct involvement. Except Super is The Goku Show ft. Vegeta, so now you can't include Vegeta either. What is there? Future Trunks' spirit sword? Super Saiyan Rage? Caulifla's transformation? Kale's transformation and control of her form (accomplishing what Broly never could)? 17's fake-out sacrifice? Freeza and 17 plotting to take down Jiren? Gohan's realization that he needs to keep training and then jobbing to Piccolo's disembodied arm? Oh wow, a true cornucopia of classic moments! Truly far beyond unmemorable events like:

- Tenshinhan breaking Yamcha's leg and crippling him as a fighter
- Krillin and Yamcha training with Muten Roshi while Son Goku is off on his own adventures
- Muten Roshi sacrificing himself and failing to stop Piccolo Daimao
- Piccolo Daimao killing Shenlong to prevent any further wishes from being made
- Kami confronting Piccolo Jr.
- Gohan struggling to survive in the wilderness and growing closer to Piccolo
- Piccolo realizing he is not a purely evil demon
- The Senshi training and doing their best to prepare for the Saiyans
- The Senshi trying and falling one by one to Nappa
- Yajirobe cutting off Vegeta's tail
- Bulma taking the initiative to go to Namek with Krillin and Gohan
- The Namekians' brave last stand against Freeza's army
- Vegeta's scheming and mass murder

And so on and so forth.

Now imagine Son Goku being shoved into each and every one of those aforementioned scenes. Tenshinhan breaks Goku's leg but Goku miraculously recovers to keep fighting > Goku is Piccolo's primary target from the start and Tambourine tries to kill him first but fails > Goku makes Piccolo realize he's not fully evil > Goku trains Gohan > Goku fights Nappa from the start and just happens to get strong enough to defeat him > Goku cuts off Vegeta's tail > Goku leaves with Bulma, Krillin, and Gohan to Namek > Goku fights and defeats Cui, Dodoria, Zarbon, and most of the Ginyu Force > Goku fights all of Freeza's forms > Goku defeats Mecha-Freeza and King Cold > Goku fights the androids and artificial humans (17, 18, 19, and 20) > Goku fights all of Cell's forms > Goku transforms into a Super Saiyan 2 > Goku's the one with the one-handed Kamehameha > Goku fights all forms of Buu > etc. etc.

Would Dragon Ball/Z have been anywhere near as awesome? Hell no, because literally no one other than Goku would ever accomplish anything or seem to have any volition and agency.

That's exactly what GT and Super have been like, and that's why these series have been creative failures!

Super's just been lucky enough to catch Dragon Ball during a time when the franchise is able to grow to new heights based on nostalgia— I maintain that 2017-2019 have been the absolute peak of Dragon Ball's global commercial success, with the Macy's Thanksgiving Day balloon representing a victory lap. Of course, most of this success isn't coming from the TV show or manga like it was for Dragon Ball and Z back in the early '90s, the previous peak of success— I'd argue it's games like Dokkan, Heroes, Xenoverse, and FighterZ as well as the movies that are earning Toei the most money, with the Super anime mostly peripheral and manga barely there (the complete opposite of the way it was in the '90s).



So getting back to the original point, Pan could have gone Super Saiyan in GT but Toei's writers for Dragon Ball don't know how to write the series without making Son Goku the primary focus. They don't know how to give the other characters' agency without having Goku there telling them what to do. Even when it seems like they are going to try to do something creative, they always default to letting Goku handle the problem. Not just solve the problem— that's a given— but handle it entirely. They set up what looks like a fun story that might even involve the other characters, and then immediately give it over to Goku and say "Here, Carrot Man, punch and blast this until it goes away! And don't worry, we'll throw in a few token moments of your friends flailing about, Vegeta grimacing and folding his arms, and Freeza ho-ho-hoing in order to convince the audience you're not the only one doing shit!"

And it doesn't have to be this way. The Case of Being Reincarnated as Yamcha is a great example of a new, fresh direction to take Dragon Ball— give other characters their own series! Turn Dragon Ball into the Japanese equivalent of the Marvel or DC extended universes! It's not like Superman's story encompasses the entirety of the DCEU, does it? No, there's an entire mini-industry of characters! There's already something kinda, sorta like this with Dragon Ball Heroes, but I mean the full nine-yards with pre-established characters. And the best part is that, with these characters, you don't have to worry about the series' current ass-tacular power scaling— you can even go back to the basics and have characters that are at Piccolo Daimao-tiers of strength and still feel threatening because you know the overpowered side of the cast aren't part of this story, so now the stakes are much more engrossingly realistic like "in the good ol' days."

Are you telling me you don't want an entire 20-volume series following the wacky antics of Buu and Mr. Satan? Not even a little graphic novel mini-series about Trunks and Gohan's bond in the future? Hell, not even a little 10-chapter peek into the wild and wonderful Universe 6? Or even the prospect of Pan having her own series culminating in her going Super Saiyan?
No, you just want more Goku Time? Okay...
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Re: Does Dragon Ball have the largest, least toxic, fandom in existence of fictional franchises?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:51 am

Yuli Ban wrote:And it doesn't have to be this way. The Case of Being Reincarnated as Yamcha is a great example of a new, fresh direction to take Dragon Ball— give other characters their own series! Turn Dragon Ball into the Japanese equivalent of the Marvel or DC extended universes! It's not like Superman's story encompasses the entirety of the DCEU, does it? No, there's an entire mini-industry of characters! There's already something kinda, sorta like this with Dragon Ball Heroes, but I mean the full nine-yards with pre-established characters. And the best part is that, with these characters, you don't have to worry about the series' current ass-tacular power scaling— you can even go back to the basics and have characters that are at Piccolo Daimao-tiers of strength and still feel threatening because you know the overpowered side of the cast aren't part of this story, so now the stakes are much more engrossingly realistic like "in the good ol' days."

Are you telling me you don't want an entire 20-volume series following the wacky antics of Buu and Mr. Satan? Not even a little graphic novel mini-series about Trunks and Gohan's bond in the future? Hell, not even a little 10-chapter peek into the wild and wonderful Universe 6? Or even the prospect of Pan having her own series culminating in her going Super Saiyan?
No, what I'd want at this point, ideally, is for people to just let this series go already, leave it to be a finished work for later generations to discover and enjoy as a completed story (which it was more than successfully doing for nearly 20 years in between its end and its revival), and just move on to something altogether new: something that also isn't just another Shonen flavor-of-the-moment Dragon Ball-wannabe.

I mean, never mind how bad of an idea its been just reviving Dragon Ball itself (so many years after it had already totally ran its gas tank empty): a gigantic chunk of the anime/manga industry of the past 20+ years has been consumed by the shadow of this franchise, with both fans and creators alike desperately chasing the dragon (no pun intended) of the original high felt from this series in its early 90s prime (late 90s/early 2000s for Western fans).

What I'd like is if the fanbase not only let Dragon Ball go and moved on, but also if they finally detached themselves from all the various attempts at "Battle Shonen successors to Dragon Ball's crown" throughout the years (Naruto, My Hero Academia, One Piece, Toriko, Fairy Tail, etc.) and moved on to embrace something that's TRULY unique and fresh and not reliant on past nostalgia (bonus points if its also something that isn't aimed primarily at grade schoolers). Both Dragon Ball itself as well as the "Battle Shonen/Dragon Ball formula" are both in DIRE need of permanent retirement so that maybe the broader industry and fandom alike might be more free to, heaven forbid, actually focus on something that's altogether different for a change.

The Dragon Ball-ified image of Shonen isn't something that needs fixing, tweaking, or maintenance: its something that needs to be burnt the fuck to the ground and swept entirely aside. I don't want it to be better: I want it to be completely gone and to let something else, something that's as altogether unlike Dragon Ball or its many imitators as it is totally fresh and creatively ambitious, have some time in the spotlight and shift the focus and direction of the medium down a totally new horizon.
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Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
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Re: Does Dragon Ball have the largest, least toxic, fandom in existence of fictional franchises?

Post by zarmack » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:36 am

Kunzait_83 wrote:
Yuli Ban wrote:And it doesn't have to be this way. The Case of Being Reincarnated as Yamcha is a great example of a new, fresh direction to take Dragon Ball— give other characters their own series! Turn Dragon Ball into the Japanese equivalent of the Marvel or DC extended universes! It's not like Superman's story encompasses the entirety of the DCEU, does it? No, there's an entire mini-industry of characters! There's already something kinda, sorta like this with Dragon Ball Heroes, but I mean the full nine-yards with pre-established characters. And the best part is that, with these characters, you don't have to worry about the series' current ass-tacular power scaling— you can even go back to the basics and have characters that are at Piccolo Daimao-tiers of strength and still feel threatening because you know the overpowered side of the cast aren't part of this story, so now the stakes are much more engrossingly realistic like "in the good ol' days."

Are you telling me you don't want an entire 20-volume series following the wacky antics of Buu and Mr. Satan? Not even a little graphic novel mini-series about Trunks and Gohan's bond in the future? Hell, not even a little 10-chapter peek into the wild and wonderful Universe 6? Or even the prospect of Pan having her own series culminating in her going Super Saiyan?
No, what I'd want at this point, ideally, is for people to just let this series go already, leave it to be a finished work for later generations to discover and enjoy as a completed story (which it was more than successfully doing for nearly 20 years in between its end and its revival), and just move on to something altogether new: something that also isn't just another Shonen flavor-of-the-moment Dragon Ball-wannabe.

I mean, never mind how bad of an idea its been just reviving Dragon Ball itself (so many years after it had already totally ran its gas tank empty): a gigantic chunk of the anime/manga industry of the past 20+ years has been consumed by the shadow of this franchise, with both fans and creators alike desperately chasing the dragon (no pun intended) of the original high felt from this series in its early 90s prime (late 90s/early 2000s for Western fans).

What I'd like is if the fanbase not only let Dragon Ball go and moved on, but also if they finally detached themselves from all the various attempts at "Battle Shonen successors to Dragon Ball's crown" throughout the years (Naruto, My Hero Academia, One Piece, Toriko, Fairy Tail, etc.) and moved on to embrace something that's TRULY unique and fresh and not reliant on past nostalgia (bonus points if its also something that isn't aimed primarily at grade schoolers). Both Dragon Ball itself as well as the "Battle Shonen/Dragon Ball formula" are both in DIRE need of permanent retirement so that maybe the broader industry and fandom alike might be more free to, heaven forbid, actually focus on something that's altogether different for a change.

The Dragon Ball-ified image of Shonen isn't something that needs fixing, tweaking, or maintenance: its something that needs to be burnt the fuck to the ground and swept entirely aside. I don't want it to be better: I want it to be completely gone and to let something else, something that's as altogether unlike Dragon Ball or its many imitators as it is totally fresh and creatively ambitious, have some time in the spotlight and shift the focus and direction of the medium down a totally new horizon.
What you are asking for is never gonna happen, because young-male oriented battle fiction is so primal and universal in character that it always existed in some from since the dawn of man. Its like asking women to stop liking Forbidden-Romance fiction, essentially impossible. Neither Dragonball nor Fist of the North Star were the first stories of their kind and definitely won't be the last.

And most popular anime/manga since the late 90's isn't Shonen/DB style fiction at all (and most anime/manga of that kind aren't as popular as you think, they are niche titles), so you are assuming way to much about the general anime fandom.

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Re: Does Dragon Ball have the largest, least toxic, fandom in existence of fictional franchises?

Post by Tai Lung » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:47 am

on toxicity there is always in the fandoms I remember that deviant there are friendly people but there are also toxic people who go so far as to call someone pedophile just to like a "shipping" even though they are fictitious characters etc

another thing is that the fandom has been divided due to how much it has expanded the franchise Manga, Z, Super, GT and Games should be a good thing as it gives opportunity to enjoy who likes but not always the majority respects the opinion of others or want to look for the guilty and victims.
Yuli Ban wrote: With Broly, it's another thing— Broly's already been established as the legendary Super Saiyan where his whole concept is that he is a sickeningly overpowered character who can't control his abilities. Kale being the legendary Super Saiyan of U6 is the primary reason why she didn't get hit with anywhere near as much hate as Caulifla. To this day, I still am not sure about Caulifla— sure, there's the S-cell explanation, but that just raises so many more questions. Considering I don't even like her design to begin with (besides her hair), I can see how someone might construe me as a sexist Caulifla hater, but if Gohan were just now introduced and did what Caulifla has done, I'd call him a cheap Gary Stu (and it'd actually fit since he's literally the son of the main character and a princess, whom even enemies respect, unlike Caulifla who is just an overpowered punk/outlaw). I don't much like Caulifla more because she's the personification of some major narrative problems with Dragon Ball, not because she threatens my already nonexistent masculinity.

When it comes to overall toxicity, it's not the least toxic by any metric, but it's definitely not one I'd place anywhere near the top 50.
goten and trunks really transformed at the age of 7 and 8, without training or some kind of instruction apparently they did not need anger either
in comparison ... cauilifla was older than them apparently lived fighting with the forces of sadala and has the like of fighting to become stronger as well as goku, really I think she is more consistent than children

I never got angry with she from the buu arc really it did not matter much how they would transform into SSJ

Lukmendes wrote:if the popularity of characters like Zangya and Fasha are any hint.
It is not very difficult, even if they only have a dialogue and then "death"

The Saiyajin girls besides fighting had more development in comparison than many female characters before it's no surprise that many end up wanting them

__________
the waste of uub hurt enough, for the sacrifice of buu previously they moved the character to punching bag because goku was central in if it was bad enough ...

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Re: Does Dragon Ball have the largest, least toxic, fandom in existence of fictional franchises?

Post by Yuli Ban » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:48 am

Kunzait_83 wrote:
Yuli Ban wrote:And it doesn't have to be this way. The Case of Being Reincarnated as Yamcha is a great example of a new, fresh direction to take Dragon Ball— give other characters their own series! Turn Dragon Ball into the Japanese equivalent of the Marvel or DC extended universes! It's not like Superman's story encompasses the entirety of the DCEU, does it? No, there's an entire mini-industry of characters! There's already something kinda, sorta like this with Dragon Ball Heroes, but I mean the full nine-yards with pre-established characters. And the best part is that, with these characters, you don't have to worry about the series' current ass-tacular power scaling— you can even go back to the basics and have characters that are at Piccolo Daimao-tiers of strength and still feel threatening because you know the overpowered side of the cast aren't part of this story, so now the stakes are much more engrossingly realistic like "in the good ol' days."

Are you telling me you don't want an entire 20-volume series following the wacky antics of Buu and Mr. Satan? Not even a little graphic novel mini-series about Trunks and Gohan's bond in the future? Hell, not even a little 10-chapter peek into the wild and wonderful Universe 6? Or even the prospect of Pan having her own series culminating in her going Super Saiyan?
No, what I'd want at this point, ideally, is for people to just let this series go already, leave it to be a finished work for later generations to discover and enjoy as a completed story (which it was more than successfully doing for nearly 20 years in between its end and its revival), and just move on to something altogether new: something that also isn't just another Shonen flavor-of-the-moment Dragon Ball-wannabe.

I mean, never mind how bad of an idea its been just reviving Dragon Ball itself (so many years after it had already totally ran its gas tank empty): a gigantic chunk of the anime/manga industry of the past 20+ years has been consumed by the shadow of this franchise, with both fans and creators alike desperately chasing the dragon (no pun intended) of the original high felt from this series in its early 90s prime (late 90s/early 2000s for Western fans).

What I'd like is if the fanbase not only let Dragon Ball go and moved on, but also if they finally detached themselves from all the various attempts at "Battle Shonen successors to Dragon Ball's crown" throughout the years (Naruto, My Hero Academia, One Piece, Toriko, Fairy Tail, etc.) and moved on to embrace something that's TRULY unique and fresh and not reliant on past nostalgia (bonus points if its also something that isn't aimed primarily at grade schoolers). Both Dragon Ball itself as well as the "Battle Shonen/Dragon Ball formula" are both in DIRE need of permanent retirement so that maybe the broader industry and fandom alike might be more free to, heaven forbid, actually focus on something that's altogether different for a change.

The Dragon Ball-ified image of Shonen isn't something that needs fixing, tweaking, or maintenance: its something that needs to be burnt the fuck to the ground and swept entirely aside. I don't want it to be better: I want it to be completely gone and to let something else, something that's as altogether unlike Dragon Ball or its many imitators as it is totally fresh and creatively ambitious, have some time in the spotlight and shift the focus and direction of the medium down a totally new horizon.
That sounds like commie talk to me.

And by that, I mean "there's a reason I didn't entertain this possibility." The only way for this to happen is for something to come along and be twice as successful as Dragon Ball. When I said that Dragon Ball is currently at its commercial peak, the implication was that Toei is going to double down on what they see fattening their wallets. Capitalism doesn't work by taking risks— if risks = $$$, then risks will be taken. But more often than not, you have to be conservative and follow what works. Risks are a byproduct. If everyone took risks, we'd never have copycats, genres, and categories in the first place. Of course, if no one took risks, we'd still be living on the East African plains right now.

For example: one could argue that Astro Boy was the Elvis or Chuck Berry of Japanese cartoons and Dragon Ball was the Beatles. In which case, where is the Nirvana? Hasn't come yet. We're still in the era of hair metal and new wave, that very faint echo of the British Invasion. There's clearly rumbles underneath, but the return of Dragon Ball is basically the equivalent of the Beatles reuniting in 1988. Not only did it delay whatever was coming next, it outright prolonged the current paradigm. Toei's looking at their coffers and seeing some of the prettiest pennies they've seen in quite a long time. This isn't going to make them want to look for a new paradigm. This is going to make them want to double down like Neil Breen.



In a better world, we'd have moved on. But that's not the world in which we are currently living. Until the Nirvana of manga comes around and knocks Dragon Ball and its wannabes off the charts, we're stuck with our current situation. And if that's the way it has to be, I'd rather some semblance of creativity still persisted. The only way we'll get anything like that is with an extended universe. There's nothing left to give from following Son Goku. I've said it before and I'll say it again:
Dragon Ball started to slip because there were no drawbacks to characters after a certain point. You had character flaws, certainly— most (in)famously, Vegeta's hubris, Gohan's overconfidence, Gotenks' juvenile naivete, and Future Trunks' lack of battle experience and overzealousness. You could use these to take down these characters if you knew what you were doing, as Cell did with Vegeta and Trunks and Boo did with Gohan and Gotenks. But these were weaknesses that could be permanently overcome unlike, say, kryptonite. Again, that wouldn't be a problem in an underdog story with a single arc or in a story where certain characters have certain abilities that other characters don't so they can complement each other (i.e. the 5 Man Band), but Dragon Ball isn't that. Thus, there wasn't much else to really hold back characters, and it really showed in Super. Badly. Because even though Vegeta changed as a character (which is good), he also lost his only heel that villains could use to reasonably defeat him, and yet he still kept losing because the plot demanded it. Goku's only weaknesses before now were hunger and his tail, but hunger stopped playing a role when the series became serious and he permanently lost his tail after Kami pulled it off, so that was that basically. Beyond that point, the only weakness in the series was "you're literally physically weaker than your opponent", and when that happens, you basically reach supercritical mass of anime escalation.
And we're seeing that play out in real time. But the video/arcade card/mobile games are the most popular aspect of the modern franchise, and the games are flashy action + power ups with no substance, so guess what we're getting in the series?
New bad guy comes along? That's a spectacular new opportunity to get some new transformations for Dokkan Battle and Heroes!

I don't think it was a coincidence that Yamamuro's designs are so glossy and toy-like, you know. That's reflecting exactly what Nu DB is— a toy line. Except the toys are interactive digital games.

But that's just the nature of the beast. Mainstream sci-fi has had the same problem ever since Star Wars hit the scene in '77. That's why so many movie series are trying to be "the new Star Wars" and it feels like science fiction in the mainstream is stagnant, just "robots, flying cars, cyborgs, AI, warp drives, dystopian societies, etc. that are just used as backdrops for guns and explosion/trying to cram as much spectacle and special effects onto the screen." (same deal for other genres; it's the functional basics of plot rather than the setting) I know plenty of movie snobs are still miffed that the whole "golden era" of cinema was apparently 'snuffed out' by Star Wars, which brought about the modern era of special effects-driven, merchandise-driven, easily-plottable movies.
Very similar to what Dragon Ball had done. And it can't really be taken back.
Nirvana was very Beatles-esque, after all.






Also: I can't imagine it'd be very easy to make shonen manga that's not for grade-schoolers. That's like trying to make young adult fiction that's not for young adults.
Last edited by Yuli Ban on Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Does Dragon Ball have the largest, least toxic, fandom in existence of fictional franchises?

Post by Lukmendes » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:52 am

Tai Lung wrote:
Lukmendes wrote:if the popularity of characters like Zangya and Fasha are any hint.
It is not very difficult, even if they only have a dialogue and then "death"
It is difficult since that didn't happen with many characters besides them, Zangya at least fought a bit, Fasha just talked then died, yet both were popular enough and it's not hard to see it's because they're females.

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Re: Does Dragon Ball have the largest, least toxic, fandom in existence of fictional franchises?

Post by CJStriker_CBR » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:53 am

zarmack wrote:As for Ribrainne, many simply thinks she's an annoying, one-dimensional, pointless gag-character with a terrible design.
Just going by the points you made and focusing on fans I meet elsewhere Off of Kanzenshuu about these points ~~ That to me was one of the Major Problems with how the fan community reacted to Ribrianne a year ago and was one of the most disappointed aspects the fandom showed.

It was just allitle jokey at the start about Ribrianne being so different, but then become a Bandwagon effect that fans, or most random posters on youtube and social media keep going on about, that they just keep regurgitating the same slogans over and over again ~~

~~"She is annoying, she is heavy, she is annoying, she says love, she is annoying, she does not look hot, she is annoying, their is no dimension to her, did we mention she is annoying yet!?" ~~ :| :| :|

While most fans on Kanzenshuu who where not fans of hers at least went into conversations and debates over more then this, the larger groups of post that where against her just stuck to their mantras most of the time, this included youtube video creators too. It was like a personal offense happen to them with this character and I never fully understood why they took their dislike so far.

It put a Big Negative Blot on DB fans in some corners of the fandom.

Even more so, when you challenge them on what truly happen to Ribrianne's character in the show over matters of Development, Events and Character Moments she had in episodes like 102, 103, 108, 109, 111, 117 and especially 118, many just simple ignored all of that, throwing out their one-dimensional complaint and stuck to the talking points.

The real toxicness I found in the fandom about this or the questionable posters on social media most, was they just seem close to their minds and eyes to her, If a character did not hit their personal preferences they desired in a character that they just go all-out in striking them down and bullying fans over it.

Yes, even fan-artist that have posted fan-works of Ribrianne at times said "Don't Hate me for Liking her!", That I found truly wrong and that fans need to show more maturity when it comes to having different tastes in characters. If you don't like a character that is fine, but bullying and denigrating about the characters that it puts fear into fans to like that character is beyond wrong.

Fans have a responsibility in the fandom to be mature and respectful to each other to avoid this from happening further. It is allot better now and I will always say it was not as many fans as some claim to dislike her, but they where loud and made unnecessary waves about her that IMO put a Negative Blot on part of the fandom that it did not need.
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Re: Does Dragon Ball have the largest, least toxic, fandom in existence of fictional franchises?

Post by Yuli Ban » Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:54 am

CJStriker_CBR wrote:
zarmack wrote:As for Ribrainne, many simply thinks she's an annoying, one-dimensional, pointless gag-character with a terrible design.
That to me was one of the Major Problems with how the fan community reacted to Ribrianne a year ago and was one of the most disappointed aspects the fandom showed.

It was just allitle jokey at the start about Ribrianne being so different, but then become a Bandwagon effect that fans, or most random posters on youtube and social media keep going on about, that they just keep regurgitating the same slogans over and over again ~~

~~"She is annoying, she is heavy, she is annoying, she says love, she is annoying, she does not look hot, she is annoying, their is no dimension to her, did we mention she is annoying yet!?" ~~ :| :| :|
The thing about Ribrianne is that, well... she IS a one-dimensional gag character. To deny this is to try to rewrite the character into something she isn't. Her gag is that she is from a stereotypical Magical Girl universe but instead of transforming into a conventionally "pretty" heroine like in Sailor Moon, she becomes fat and goofy. This is a series fundamentally rooted as a gag manga, so it's just natural Toriyama would take the piss like this. Of course, the problem is that there are competing fanbases in the series— those who prefer things silly, those who prefer things serious, those who prefer both, those who prefer both but would rather it choose a general tone, etc... As it happened, Ribrianne wound up in the Scrappy Bin because of questionable choices made in terms of her characterization; most other ToP characters didn't even get that, because they were already forgotten before their introductions were finished (I don't even remember the names of the mecha universe characters). It's not up to the fans to save the character from the Scrappy Bin. That's on Toei, Toriyama, and Toyotaro. Many characters in Dragon Ball before Ribrianne were no different, but they became endearing classics. Others just became forgotten side-characters. There's a reason there are memes about Nappa and Yamcha but no one ever talks about Burter or Pui Pui.

It's possible for the fans to do something (think of TFS), but one shouldn't rely on them to do this. The creators have to recognize when they've screwed up and try to work to rectify this.
There's a reason Yoda is one of the all-time greatest movie characters but Jar Jar Binks is recognized as one of the worst even though Yoda was functionally similar right up until it was revealed he was actually a Jedi master. That's actually the big difference— Yoda became beloved because we found out within the same movie that he wasn't what he first seemed to be. Lucas fucked up his whole "Darth Jar Jar" plan by not revealing it in the first movie, and now we live in a world where everyone wants to punch that gungan's face, even in the expanded canon. That's his role now.
Big the Cat from the Sonic franchise was hated from Day 1 and nothing Sega did could rescue him from the Scrappy Bin because they fundamentally misunderstood why people hated him in the first place. They kept trying to make him "cool" and "awesome" like what Toei's doing with Yamcha, but it's not the same situation. They eventually just gave up and trashed him.
Hell, the trope-namer himself, Scrappy-Doo, used to be a popular character until they ran his gimmick dry.


With Ribrianne, the problem Toei had was overdoing the whole "power of love" thing. It's a lot less overdone in the manga, but the anime writers at Toei broke the number one rule of making a character: don't overdo any one aspect of their character, especially something like a theme or a catchphrase. Ribrianne was essentially flanderized from the start. She hasn't lasted anywhere near long enough to become an actual "Scrappy" like Beerus is becoming (fans are starting to loathe how he just sits around eating food and not fighting, as the awe from his initial battle five years ago is starting to wear thin), so I wouldn't worry too much about her as long as Toriyama and Toyotaro do something with her in due time.
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Re: Does Dragon Ball have the largest, least toxic, fandom in existence of fictional franchises?

Post by zarmack » Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:01 am

Yuli Ban wrote:
Kunzait_83 wrote:
Yuli Ban wrote:And it doesn't have to be this way. The Case of Being Reincarnated as Yamcha is a great example of a new, fresh direction to take Dragon Ball— give other characters their own series! Turn Dragon Ball into the Japanese equivalent of the Marvel or DC extended universes! It's not like Superman's story encompasses the entirety of the DCEU, does it? No, there's an entire mini-industry of characters! There's already something kinda, sorta like this with Dragon Ball Heroes, but I mean the full nine-yards with pre-established characters. And the best part is that, with these characters, you don't have to worry about the series' current ass-tacular power scaling— you can even go back to the basics and have characters that are at Piccolo Daimao-tiers of strength and still feel threatening because you know the overpowered side of the cast aren't part of this story, so now the stakes are much more engrossingly realistic like "in the good ol' days."

Are you telling me you don't want an entire 20-volume series following the wacky antics of Buu and Mr. Satan? Not even a little graphic novel mini-series about Trunks and Gohan's bond in the future? Hell, not even a little 10-chapter peek into the wild and wonderful Universe 6? Or even the prospect of Pan having her own series culminating in her going Super Saiyan?
No, what I'd want at this point, ideally, is for people to just let this series go already, leave it to be a finished work for later generations to discover and enjoy as a completed story (which it was more than successfully doing for nearly 20 years in between its end and its revival), and just move on to something altogether new: something that also isn't just another Shonen flavor-of-the-moment Dragon Ball-wannabe.

I mean, never mind how bad of an idea its been just reviving Dragon Ball itself (so many years after it had already totally ran its gas tank empty): a gigantic chunk of the anime/manga industry of the past 20+ years has been consumed by the shadow of this franchise, with both fans and creators alike desperately chasing the dragon (no pun intended) of the original high felt from this series in its early 90s prime (late 90s/early 2000s for Western fans).

What I'd like is if the fanbase not only let Dragon Ball go and moved on, but also if they finally detached themselves from all the various attempts at "Battle Shonen successors to Dragon Ball's crown" throughout the years (Naruto, My Hero Academia, One Piece, Toriko, Fairy Tail, etc.) and moved on to embrace something that's TRULY unique and fresh and not reliant on past nostalgia (bonus points if its also something that isn't aimed primarily at grade schoolers). Both Dragon Ball itself as well as the "Battle Shonen/Dragon Ball formula" are both in DIRE need of permanent retirement so that maybe the broader industry and fandom alike might be more free to, heaven forbid, actually focus on something that's altogether different for a change.

The Dragon Ball-ified image of Shonen isn't something that needs fixing, tweaking, or maintenance: its something that needs to be burnt the fuck to the ground and swept entirely aside. I don't want it to be better: I want it to be completely gone and to let something else, something that's as altogether unlike Dragon Ball or its many imitators as it is totally fresh and creatively ambitious, have some time in the spotlight and shift the focus and direction of the medium down a totally new horizon.
That sounds like commie talk to me.

And by that, I mean "there's a reason I didn't entertain this possibility." The only way for this to happen is for something to come along and be twice as successful as Dragon Ball. When I said that Dragon Ball is currently at its commercial peak, the implication was that Toei is going to double down on what they see fattening their wallets. Capitalism doesn't work by taking risks— if risks = $$$, then risks will be taken. But more often than not, you have to be conservative and follow what works. Risks are a byproduct. If everyone took risks, we'd never have copycats, genres, and categories in the first place. Of course, if no one took risks, we'd still be living on the East African plains right now.

For example: one could argue that Astro Boy was the Elvis or Chuck Berry of Japanese cartoons and Dragon Ball was the Beatles. In which case, where is the Nirvana? Hasn't come yet. We're still in the era of hair metal and new wave, that very faint echo of the British Invasion. There's clearly rumbles underneath, but the return of Dragon Ball is basically the equivalent of the Beatles reuniting in 1988. Not only did it delay whatever was coming next, it outright prolonged the current paradigm. Toei's looking at their coffers and seeing some of the prettiest pennies they've seen in quite a long time. This isn't going to make them want to look for a new paradigm. This is going to make them want to double down like Neil Breen.



In a better world, we'd have moved on. But that's not the world in which we are currently living. Until the Nirvana of manga comes around and knocks Dragon Ball and its wannabes off the charts, we're stuck with our current situation. And if that's the way it has to be, I'd rather some semblance of creativity still persisted. The only way we'll get anything like that is with an extended universe. There's nothing left to give from following Son Goku. I've said it before and I'll say it again:
Dragon Ball started to slip because there were no drawbacks to characters after a certain point. You had character flaws, certainly— most (in)famously, Vegeta's hubris, Gohan's overconfidence, Gotenks' juvenile naivete, and Future Trunks' lack of battle experience and overzealousness. You could use these to take down these characters if you knew what you were doing, as Cell did with Vegeta and Trunks and Boo did with Gohan and Gotenks. But these were weaknesses that could be permanently overcome unlike, say, kryptonite. Again, that wouldn't be a problem in an underdog story with a single arc or in a story where certain characters have certain abilities that other characters don't so they can complement each other (i.e. the 5 Man Band), but Dragon Ball isn't that. Thus, there wasn't much else to really hold back characters, and it really showed in Super. Badly. Because even though Vegeta changed as a character (which is good), he also lost his only heel that villains could use to reasonably defeat him, and yet he still kept losing because the plot demanded it. Goku's only weaknesses before now were hunger and his tail, but hunger stopped playing a role when the series became serious and he permanently lost his tail after Kami pulled it off, so that was that basically. Beyond that point, the only weakness in the series was "you're literally physically weaker than your opponent", and when that happens, you basically reach supercritical mass of anime escalation.
And we're seeing that play out in real time. But the video/arcade card/mobile games are the most popular aspect of the modern franchise, and the games are flashy action + power ups with no substance, so guess what we're getting in the series?
New bad guy comes along? That's a spectacular new opportunity to get some new transformations for Dokkan Battle and Heroes!

I don't think it was a coincidence that Yamamuro's designs are so glossy and toy-like, you know. That's reflecting exactly what Nu DB is— a toy line. Except the toys are interactive digital games.

But that's just the nature of the beast. Mainstream sci-fi has had the same problem ever since Star Wars hit the scene in '77. That's why so many movie series are trying to be "the new Star Wars" and it feels like science fiction in the mainstream is stagnant, just "robots, flying cars, cyborgs, AI, warp drives, dystopian societies, etc. that are just used as backdrops for guns and explosion/trying to cram as much spectacle and special effects onto the screen." (same deal for other genres; it's the functional basics of plot rather than the setting) I know plenty of movie snobs are still miffed that the whole "golden era" of cinema was apparently 'snuffed out' by Star Wars, which brought about the modern era of special effects-driven, merchandise-driven, easily-plottable movies.
Very similar to what Dragon Ball had done. And it can't really be taken back.
Nirvana was very Beatles-esque, after all.






Also: I can't imagine it'd be very easy to make shonen manga that's not for grade-schoolers. That's like trying to make young adult fiction that's not for young adults.
I'd argue that Evangelion is the Nirvana of anime lmao. After all, they're both gerne-defining 90s cultural landmarks that share themes of angst and Nihilism.

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Re: Does Dragon Ball have the largest, least toxic, fandom in existence of fictional franchises?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:41 am

Yuli Ban wrote:That sounds like commie talk to me.

And by that, I mean "there's a reason I didn't entertain this possibility." The only way for this to happen is for something to come along and be twice as successful as Dragon Ball. When I said that Dragon Ball is currently at its commercial peak, the implication was that Toei is going to double down on what they see fattening their wallets. Capitalism doesn't work by taking risks— if risks = $$$, then risks will be taken. But more often than not, you have to be conservative and follow what works. Risks are a byproduct. If everyone took risks, we'd never have copycats, genres, and categories in the first place. Of course, if no one took risks, we'd still be living on the East African plains right now.
First of all: yes, I understand how capitalism (and moreover, how corporate logic) works, thanks very much.

Second: you might be misunderstanding me. I'm not talking about what I think is LIKELY to happen. I'm talking about what I personally would WANT to happen. What one wants and what is are two TOTALLY different things. I understand more than full well the nature of where we are and how we got here: that having been said, I'm not in favor of voicing any kind of support for it.

I have no personal interest whatsoever in seeing the current anime/manga paradigm (and indeed, the anime/manga paradigm of the past 15 or so years at least) continue, in any form or fashion. What I want and what I will continue to voice my interest and support for is for someone or something to overturn the table entirely. I've wanted this just as much more than ten/fifteen years ago in the early/mid 2000s as much as I do right now: I've been beyond finished with this whole streak of "post-Dragon Ball Battle Shonen Dominance" since, at a minimum, all the way back when this forum first launched, and I've been cheering for its demise as one of the primary movers, shakers, and trendsetters within the industry consistently ever since then.

I've many times in the past made the comparison between Dragon Ball and Neon Genesis Evangelion only insofar as both those respective original series are perfectly fine and still hold up on their own, but the impact and legacy that both have had on the broader medium and fanbase for anime and manga in the wake of their completion have been beyond toxic and corrosive to said medium on a creative/artistic level (for very different and diverging reasons as those are two VERY fundamentally different series). However just because I can still derive enjoyment from them as individual works, divorced from what they had ultimately lead to, doesn't mean that I still don't want to see the landscape that they helped forge completely upended and swept away entirely in favor of something else.

So yeah, I fully get that this is going to continue on no matter what anyone else things because $$$: but since this is a discussions forum about what people think as individuals, and the question in these types of conversations is invariably "What is it that you want to see out of the franchise going forward?" my answer is, and will always continue to be "for both it and its imitators and would-be successors to stop being a thing entirely, and get out of the way for something else to have the floor for a change".
Yuli Ban wrote:For example: one could argue that Astro Boy was the Elvis or Chuck Berry of Japanese cartoons and Dragon Ball was the Beatles. In which case, where is the Nirvana? Hasn't come yet. We're still in the era of hair metal and new wave, that very faint echo of the British Invasion. There's clearly rumbles underneath, but the return of Dragon Ball is basically the equivalent of the Beatles reuniting in 1988. Not only did it delay whatever was coming next, it outright prolonged the current paradigm. Toei's looking at their coffers and seeing some of the prettiest pennies they've seen in quite a long time. This isn't going to make them want to look for a new paradigm. This is going to make them want to double down like Neil Breen.
Replace "Japanese cartoons" (i.e. anime as a whole entire entity) with "Japanese children's cartoons" (i.e. Shonen) and that analogy holds, since the entire history of the medium cannot and should not be boiled down solely to this one particular corner of it.

And also, to varying degrees, one could make the argument for either Akira or Evangelion as being Nirvana analogs for anime (albeit within VASTLY different corners and realms of anime from Dragon Ball: since once again, anime is a MUCH bigger and denser medium than just merely Shonen).

That having been said, Nirvana also didn't just come up from complete nowhere: there was a particular strain of an underground punk rock movement running all throughout the late 70s and entirety of the 80s that had made Nirvana possible in the first place. And that punk movement also didn't just spring into being out of thin air from whole cloth: people who were dissatisfied with the status quo and wanted to rebel against it had made it happen via years upon years of new and ambitious bands toiling away creatively (with almost zero interest in commercial viability) and fans championing them and spreading their work throughout various niche communities.

It took more than a decade and a half to nearly two decades of this to lay the groundwork from which a band like Nirvana could then rise forth from and lay waste to the mainstream paradigm (without even purposefully trying to do so on their part no less). Because Nirvana was an organic phenomenon from the bottom up, and not a manufactured one from the top down. As Dave Grohl himself has always said (correctly): Nirvana didn't come to the mainstream, the mainstream came to Nirvana.

I find it very appropriate that you used this very specific musical analogy, because it fits in with my overall perspective perfectly: I'm not in this to see the commercial Hair Metal status quo get tweaked around the edges so that the next Shonen manga/anime equivalent to Poison or White Snake can be better polished up. As someone who cares about Japanese anime and manga as medium's from a standpoint of creative and artistic growth and integrity, I'm in this to see the status quo of the past 15/20 years be torched and ripped down and replaced with something vastly better and more creatively ambitious.
Yuli Ban wrote:In a better world, we'd have moved on. But that's not the world in which we are currently living.

...

Also: I can't imagine it'd be very easy to make shonen manga that's not for grade-schoolers. That's like trying to make young adult fiction that's not for young adults.
Well that's also part of my point: most fans in communities like this one aren't grade school children. Part of my issue is the sheer number of anime fans that are out there who aren't kids, but still focus primarily on children's anime and manga. The companies themselves are one thing, its in their nature to double down on whatever is selling: but you cannot have something sell without there being legions of people to buy it.

I've got NOTHING at all against small children buying this shit. Its who they're aimed at, and kids are gonna be kids (though by all means, parents ought to at a minimum ATTEMPT to encourage them to not wallow 100% exclusively in this type of plastic shit). My issue rather is with the fanbase of grown-ass adults whose anime and manga habits revolve primarily, if not exclusively, around both Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball-esque Shonen derivatives.

To once more run counter to your "Shonen anime as rock music" analogy: Shonen isn't the only game in town, and never has been. If you're a small kid, that's one thing. If you're an adult who's into a few scattered assortment of Shonen titles for laughs, but they aren't your main overarching focus, that's also fine. My issue comes down to the vast swath of fans throughout the past 20 some-odd years whose relationship with anime/manga boils down exclusively to what they grew up on as kids - which in most cases throughout the past 20 years has been either Dragon Ball or one of its legions of wannabes - to the express detriment of anything else.

I know that there's a LOT of kids out there: but kids alone in NO way account for 100% of the entire expanse of the Shonen demographics' global success across the 2000s and 2010s. With Shonen in particular, there has been a MASSIVE post-90s growth in a periphery demographic for it made up of both little girls and adult men that has further bolstered its sales. And while I could care less about the former (I think that Japan subdividing its demographic categories by gender is, at a certain point, fairly stupid and unnecessarily reductive to begin with), the adult men is CERTAINLY something that I have been a vociferous critic of rather consistently throughout the years.

Again, I don't care whatsoever if you're an adult who from time to time engages with some (SOME) children's media: hey, guilty as charged here myself. But part of the issue is with SO much of the adult fandom for this stuff being made up of grown men who - to a point that seems almost pathological at times - CANNOT let it go and give their time, focus, and moreover for this topic, their $$$ for almost ANYTHING else that isn't in some way connected to their grade school iconography.

This isn't like something like healthcare, or some other life-or-death necessity that people need to survive (which would lend a WHOLE different wrinkle to things that would change the fundamental nature of what I'm about to say here entirely): this is commercial art and entertainment. Within that context, at a certain point you can only place so much of the blame on the corporations and the throngs of current 8 year olds: at a certain point, there's SOME stretch of the grown adult fanbase with whom the (literal) buck must stop at.

Its in the very core nature of a capitalist corporation to only do what will make them the most amount of money (and whether or not that's even a good thing in itself is a WHOLE separate rabbit hole of a discussion entirely): but no one is holding a gun to the typical Otaku Weab's head and forcing them to dedicate the lion's share of their time, money, and online attention to reliving their childhood playground fantasies, whilst generally ignoring and not lending much of ANY financial or word-of-mouth weight to something more fundamentally grown-up and more artistically and/or intellectually ambitious.

As someone who is on the "regular fan" side of the equation, there isn't a damn thing that some random schmuck like myself can do to impact the corporate end of things, apart from not supporting it financially as an individual (which I for one generally do not). But a regular fan CAN however at least attempt to help try and steer the broader fandom discourse and "overton window" so to speak at the ground level into different directions and raise some basic questions like why it is that most of us place so much exclusive emphasis on just this one, lone corner of an entire broader medium that is MUCH much bigger overall?

To once again harken back to your musical analogy: imagine going back to the early 1980s and telling some hardcore punk rocker kid something along the lines of "Why are you wasting so much energy raging and rebelling against the mainstream? Forget this Black Flag shit, just relax and enjoy some Robert Palmer or Eddie Money. Play within the middle lane like everyone else." Said punk kid would (rightly and justly) flip you the finger, spit his drink at your Phil Collins record, and tell you to go fuck yourself.

You can either accept the status quo at face value and act like its this solid, immovable mass which is forever and permanently impervious to any outside stimuli: or you can be one of however many numerous voices it takes to slowly ebb and chip away at it until one day its suddenly NOT the status quo anymore. These things only have as much power and weight as people give them. All change of any kind begins with one's perspective: and the first step in cases like this is for people to stop perceiving these types of paradigms as if they're solidly permanent, eternally entrenched, and invincible to influence from the outside. They're not, and historically never have been. Nothing lasts forever.
Last edited by Kunzait_83 on Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:03 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Kunzait's Wuxia Thread
Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Re: Does Dragon Ball have the largest, least toxic, fandom in existence of fictional franchises?

Post by CJStriker_CBR » Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:44 am

Yuli Ban wrote:
CJStriker_CBR wrote:
zarmack wrote:As for Ribrainne, many simply thinks she's an annoying, one-dimensional, pointless gag-character with a terrible design.
That to me was one of the Major Problems with how the fan community reacted to Ribrianne a year ago and was one of the most disappointed aspects the fandom showed.

It was just allitle jokey at the start about Ribrianne being so different, but then become a Bandwagon effect that fans, or most random posters on youtube and social media keep going on about, that they just keep regurgitating the same slogans over and over again ~~

~~"She is annoying, she is heavy, she is annoying, she says love, she is annoying, she does not look hot, she is annoying, their is no dimension to her, did we mention she is annoying yet!?" ~~ :| :| :|
The thing about Ribrianne is that, well... she IS a one-dimensional gag character. To deny this is to try to rewrite the character into something she isn't. Her gag is that she is from a stereotypical Magical Girl universe but instead of transforming into a conventionally "pretty" heroine like in Sailor Moon, she becomes fat and goofy. This is a series fundamentally rooted as a gag manga, so it's just natural Toriyama would take the piss like this. Of course, the problem is that there are competing fanbases in the series— those who prefer things silly, those who prefer things serious, those who prefer both, those who prefer both but would rather it choose a general tone, etc... As it happened, Ribrianne wound up in the Scrappy Bin because of questionable choices made in terms of her characterization; most other ToP characters didn't even get that, because they were already forgotten before their introductions were finished (I don't even remember the names of the mecha universe characters). It's not up to the fans to save the character from the Scrappy Bin. That's on Toei, Toriyama, and Toyotaro. Many characters in Dragon Ball before Ribrianne were no different, but they became endearing classics. Others just became forgotten side-characters. There's a reason there are memes about Nappa and Yamcha but no one ever talks about Burter or Pui Pui.

It's possible for the fans to do something (think of TFS), but one shouldn't rely on them to do this. The creators have to recognize when they've screwed up and try to work to rectify this.
There's a reason Yoda is one of the all-time greatest movie characters but Jar Jar Binks is recognized as one of the worst even though Yoda was functionally similar right up until it was revealed he was actually a Jedi master. That's actually the big difference— Yoda became beloved because we found out within the same movie that he wasn't what he first seemed to be. Lucas fucked up his whole "Darth Jar Jar" plan by not revealing it in the first movie, and now we live in a world where everyone wants to punch that gungan's face, even in the expanded canon. That's his role now.
Big the Cat from the Sonic franchise was hated from Day 1 and nothing Sega did could rescue him from the Scrappy Bin because they fundamentally misunderstood why people hated him in the first place. They kept trying to make him "cool" and "awesome" like what Toei's doing with Yamcha, but it's not the same situation. They eventually just gave up and trashed him.
Hell, the trope-namer himself, Scrappy-Doo, used to be a popular character until they ran his gimmick dry.


With Ribrianne, the problem Toei had was overdoing the whole "power of love" thing. It's a lot less overdone in the manga, but the anime writers at Toei broke the number one rule of making a character: don't overdo any one aspect of their character, especially something like a theme or a catchphrase. Ribrianne was essentially flanderized from the start. She hasn't lasted anywhere near long enough to become an actual "Scrappy" like Beerus is becoming (fans are starting to loathe how he just sits around eating food and not fighting, as the awe from his initial battle five years ago is starting to wear thin), so I wouldn't worry too much about her as long as Toriyama and Toyotaro do something with her in due time.
That is a Well made post and gets to the Good Point of why Kazenshuu, Like I said in my other post, was Far Superior in these areas then other social media that did not go beyond the quips talks their, so thanks for that and a well made post. :)

I do hope that Toei Does have plans for her in the future and it is all up to them, no matter what dynamic fans have in view of them, it is up to them if in due time more use of her comes or not anymore, so you are correct on that. I have a general hopeful view by how she was used that she has a chance for future development cause it seem toei was putting work into her character more then many others in the ToP. They only went so far to a degree is only a guess why, restrictions on time or who Toei wanted to mostly focus on like UI or Jiren and only allowed time for so much for others, but it is all a guess.

In the end how Fans react to her I don't know if they will have an effect if she is used more or not, but if so by rumors I have heard by internet standards and rumors from the net that she was Very Positively received over in Japan far more then it seemed like in the West on the net. So it is hard to say at this point, like I said we have to see.

But as for the debate that Ribrianne is just a one off gag character, just one dimensional and this can't be denied and saying different is rewriting what was not their.......honestly, I and others that like her only take what was we Truly shown to us in the story and got out of her story, nothing more or less, just helping to define what we saw.

Funny does not equal only gag characters and that was pinned way to hard on her. DB has funny characters and should remain to have them and the main cast are like that at many points too. But the Important point, as you said, is that it goes by what fans desire in a character, neither side is 100% right, but that should not bring down a character at all cause one set of fans are not really fans of such ideals of characteristics.

The talk about love again might no have won over some, but other Fans like me and others I have meet Greatly enjoyed her Ideals of love, talking about her power set and what she said. Like my last part, it all depends on the Fan and what they enjoy out of their characters, not matter how much other fans might say they are not fans of it, fans like me that like it can but just a vocally supportive cause this is what we wanted in her character.

But what is most important is to give notice and realizations to the moments that are truly, but slowly shown over time showing of her more deep characteristics and the developments she goes threw.

As time goes on with the story, in episodes 117 and 118, examples of development like when Ribrianne grew in understand new means of love that she wants to now learn about showing growth and class and what depths it can hold to better herself was a key development for her. We saw in 118 she is the Champion of a whole universe and cared more about rallying them to defend their lives then just telling jokes or being funny at those points in the episodes with no meaning being them, a gag only character would never do this. It really is about revealing slowly who she truly is and what her responsibility are in her Universe. It is the beginning, early showings of her true character revelations to the audience, her depths of character and final her developments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqEI_Kb ... Ei&index=4

These are just some points to point out the Facts on Ribrianne, but it is only said when back-up by what was said and shown in the story, Stating in BOLD Terms to remind fans of those moments that get forgotten or missed. When you piece these moments together, the early beginnings of a more fully, complex character start to show. :wink:

Yes, their has to be WAY more given to her character no doubt, but with what little time was given their was much more given then sometimes fans that are not fans of those character can see and appreciate. That the true fans of a character a suppose to do, bring what they saw to light to help define their favorites in a more positive light for other fans and the story overall. :angel:
--- ADMIN NOTE: THIS SIGNATURE IS FAR TOO LONG. PLEASE REDUCE IN SIZE. ---
Let it Bloom. Let it Ring. The Song of Love & Victory!”:clap:
Brianne De Chateau/Ribrianne!
My #1 in DB!
:thumbup:

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