What to do about Yamcha's characterization? Be Peaceful.

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What to do about Yamcha's characterization? Be Peaceful.

Post by Waluigiman » Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:50 pm

I had finally decided to post my disappointment on Yamcha's treatment in this topic instead of sneaking it everywhere else. As someone who is interested in making a franchise and had studied on characterization, it upsets me on how Dragon Ball Super is being influenced by his fanbase portrayal and how it seems like it does not want Yamcha to have a good moment like not having him fight and defeat random Frieza solders or completely humiliated in the TOP arc. I also noticed that as the story progresses, he gets worse and worse.

Dragon Ball Z: He gets left behind or curbstomped in the manga material and Bulma broke up with him. I am glad the show gave him victories tough.
Dragon Ball Super: Apparently, his friends are now more distant to the point they missrespect him(the English Dub enjoys doing this) or forget he exists.
Dragon Ball Fighterz cutscenes/Xenoverse 2: Most of his cutscenes involve the other characters insulting or talking about his flaws and this includes Goku being unsupportive about the mockery his death to the Saibaman. The cutscene involving Krillin and Goku encouraging to join them was heartwarming. :thumbup:

Any thoughts on what do you like to happen?

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Re: What to do about Yamcha's characterization? Be Peaceful.

Post by ABED » Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:08 pm

He fell behind a long time ago. Either let him go or play up the lovable loser. Maybe have him be the butt of the joke in one respect, but give him a consolation prize elsewhere. The example I gave elsewhere is Jerry/Gary/Larry/Barry from Parks and Rec.
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Re: What to do about Yamcha's characterization? Be Peaceful.

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:47 pm

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Re: What to do about Yamcha's characterization? Be Peaceful.

Post by Gaffer Tape » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:43 pm

As fond as I am of Yamcha, I don't feel the need to be overly protective of him or his legacy. I don't really care to see him completely shat upon, but that's because it simply doesn't seem a natural outgrowth of his character. I did actually find the baseball episode rather funny. It was a bit too influenced by the meme, but it at least did pick a direction. While I'm not going to lie that I'd prefer to see him manage to find success in some way, at least "lovable loser" is a direction, which is better than the meandering lack of characterization he had received through the majority of the '90s. And I felt the baseball episode handled that rather well. It did rely a bit too much on the memes, and I greatly object to his friends suddenly and unnaturally treating him like dog poop they stepped in, but other than that, I feel it walked the line rather well at giving him a decent amount of strong personality, talents that other characters didn't have, and humor at his expense. That's a kind of direction I can certainly and happily accept.

So of course the Tournament of Power Arc utterly ruins all of that. I really don't know what it was about that section of the story that seemed to mistake creepy, unpleasant, and awkward for "funny," but given how both Yamcha and the Muten Roshi were written, whoever was in charge clearly did not understand the difference. Here he was just a pitiful sad sack, a man who wanted desperately to be recognized by his peer group but who was ultimately ignored and abandoned. And I'm not even saying that can't be a direction from which humor can spring. But in this case, I found myself screaming at the screen, "WHAT'S THE JOKE?!" Seriously, what was funny about that? Most people I heard from at the time assumed it had to be a setup for something or just felt uncomfortably bad for the guy. Or both. It certainly wasn't a setup. It went nowhere. And it certainly wasn't funny. It was just extremely awkward.

So I could totally go for a plucky underdog route with him, as long as it's balanced with a relative amount of respect. I mean, Charlie Brown is a lovable loser character, but what they seemed to forget with Yamcha in the ToP stuff is that half of lovable loser is "lovable," not "pitiable." It's someone you want to root for, even as you're laughing at their misfortunes. Hell, even the Yamcha Reincarnation manga gets that right. Sure, in some parts it almost feels like a Yamcha power fantasy. But it never really goes overboard with that. The person inhabiting Yamcha knows his limitations, knows he can't make this winning streak last forever. But he works so hard and presents himself as so lovably earnest and likable that you root for him even when Vegeta kicks his ass. It's all about the characterization. And I guess the problem is, while Yamcha was incredibly interesting when he was first introduced, the ball with that was dropped many decades ago. Now nobody seems to know what his personality is. Because of that, his personality has been replaced by "lol Yamcha sux" memes.
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Re: What to do about Yamcha's characterization? Be Peaceful.

Post by KBABZ » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:16 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:at least "lovable loser" is a direction
Great write-up overall. I wanted to highlight this because this is technically where Yamcha went as a character after he left the desert and started following Goku and Bulma. The fight against Shen/Hero I think also plays into this facet of the character.

At a certain point I wonder if Yamcha should have just been forgotten about after the Cell arc similarly to Launch for all the good staying around has done for his character.

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Re: What to do about Yamcha's characterization? Be Peaceful.

Post by Waluigiman » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:00 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:As fond as I am of Yamcha, I don't feel the need to be overly protective of him or his legacy. I don't really care to see him completely shat upon, but that's because it simply doesn't seem a natural outgrowth of his character. I did actually find the baseball episode rather funny. It was a bit too influenced by the meme, but it at least did pick a direction. While I'm not going to lie that I'd prefer to see him manage to find success in some way, at least "lovable loser" is a direction, which is better than the meandering lack of characterization he had received through the majority of the '90s. And I felt the baseball episode handled that rather well. It did rely a bit too much on the memes, and I greatly object to his friends suddenly and unnaturally treating him like dog poop they stepped in, but other than that, I feel it walked the line rather well at giving him a decent amount of strong personality, talents that other characters didn't have, and humor at his expense. That's a kind of direction I can certainly and happily accept.

So of course the Tournament of Power Arc utterly ruins all of that. I really don't know what it was about that section of the story that seemed to mistake creepy, unpleasant, and awkward for "funny," but given how both Yamcha and the Muten Roshi were written, whoever was in charge clearly did not understand the difference. Here he was just a pitiful sad sack, a man who wanted desperately to be recognized by his peer group but who was ultimately ignored and abandoned. And I'm not even saying that can't be a direction from which humor can spring. But in this case, I found myself screaming at the screen, "WHAT'S THE JOKE?!" Seriously, what was funny about that? Most people I heard from at the time assumed it had to be a setup for something or just felt uncomfortably bad for the guy. Or both. It certainly wasn't a setup. It went nowhere. And it certainly wasn't funny. It was just extremely awkward.

So I could totally go for a plucky underdog route with him, as long as it's balanced with a relative amount of respect. I mean, Charlie Brown is a lovable loser character, but what they seemed to forget with Yamcha in the ToP stuff is that half of lovable loser is "lovable," not "pitiable." It's someone you want to root for, even as you're laughing at their misfortunes. Hell, even the Yamcha Reincarnation manga gets that right. Sure, in some parts it almost feels like a Yamcha power fantasy. But it never really goes overboard with that. The person inhabiting Yamcha knows his limitations, knows he can't make this winning streak last forever. But he works so hard and presents himself as so lovably earnest and likable that you root for him even when Vegeta kicks his ass. It's all about the characterization. And I guess the problem is, while Yamcha was incredibly interesting when he was first introduced, the ball with that was dropped many decades ago. Now nobody seems to know what his personality is. Because of that, his personality has been replaced by "lol Yamcha sux" memes.
1. I see what you mean but if I needed to clarify myself, I am not saying that he is not allowed to have dorky moments but that I feel like it overshadows the rest of his character. Like in some parts in Dragon Ball Super, some of the writers seemed like they had a good idea on how to use him Such as the part where he says good luck to the 10 fighters before leaving the earth. That part felt like something he will do before his unluckiness was exaggerated.
2.I wonder if they are actually already doing this "Plucky underdog" and it's just that I am not seeing it. Like maybe the Reincarnation story gave an impact to the future usage of Yamcha. I better not give myself too much optimism just like the time I believed some fake leaks about the Tournament of Power.

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Re: What to do about Yamcha's characterization? Be Peaceful.

Post by ABED » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:05 pm

Spot on about lovable loser. To me, it's the difference between Meg on Family Guy and again, I'll use the Jerry/Larry/Barry/Gary example. Whoops, I almost forgot Terry. Meg is only ever the butt of the joke. Not even her family loves her. It stops being funny and becomes mean spirited after a while.
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Re: What to do about Yamcha's characterization? Be Peaceful.

Post by goku the krump dancer » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:08 am

My only issue with the loveable loser thing is that it partly comes off as Krillin's gimmick as well. Yeah sure two characters can wear the same hat but one its certainly gonna shine more on one than the other. Since he's used in the story more, Krillin has more moments of "damn I feel sorry for him" than Yamcha does.
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Re: What to do about Yamcha's characterization? Be Peaceful.

Post by TKA » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:34 am

Yamcha is a fine character. His role in the story has always been as an expositor. Whether it's him conveying information to the other characters by word, or him conveying information to other characters by getting his shit wrecked. It's an important role and he's an indispensable character for the parts in the series where he was relevant.

The issue is fan culture feeding back into philosophy of those producing actual content for the franchise. Fans latched on to Yamcha's penchant for getting beat up, and I think that has affected those who are creating content, since they play up Yamcha's apparent "loserness" for a laugh/merchandising. It's unfortunate.
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Re: What to do about Yamcha's characterization? Be Peaceful.

Post by Rubens » Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:19 pm

It honestly felt heartbreaking the way he was portrayed in the Tournament of Power arc, specifically in two contexts I dislike: one was him being expeting an invitation for the tournament everyone knew he was never going to get (and unfortunaly the rumors of him joining in to replace Boo only made it more hurtful) and was never told about; second is the fact of him being treated poorly by his life long friends, trusted allies in battle, fellow martial artists, like some sort of unwanted and awkward guy who keeps showing up, which in universe makes no sense if you consider their history. Both scenarios just felt sad and mean to Yamcha because he got nothing from there, no consolation prize or anything.

The baseball episode, even though I didn't particulary cared for it (maybe because I don't care for baseball in general, it doesn't matter), was a reasonable way to write him because even though he was the center of the joke, he got that win in the end.
goku the krump dancer wrote:My only issue with the loveable loser thing is that it partly comes off as Krillin's gimmick as well. Yeah sure two characters can wear the same hat but one its certainly gonna shine more on one than the other. Since he's used in the story more, Krillin has more moments of "damn I feel sorry for him" than Yamcha does.
That's true, except Krillin is recognized as a skilled fighter and has room for a role in battle, whereas I don't really see that going for Yamcha anymore. Therefore I believe he needs something else positive for him.
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Re: What to do about Yamcha's characterization? Be Peaceful.

Post by Majin Buu » Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:33 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:My only issue with the loveable loser thing is that it partly comes off as Krillin's gimmick as well. Yeah sure two characters can wear the same hat but one its certainly gonna shine more on one than the other. Since he's used in the story more, Krillin has more moments of "damn I feel sorry for him" than Yamcha does.
Lately it seems like Yamcha has outright replaced Kuririn as the franchise's memetic loser.

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Re: What to do about Yamcha's characterization? Be Peaceful.

Post by zDBZ » Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:40 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:So I could totally go for a plucky underdog route with him, as long as it's balanced with a relative amount of respect. I mean, Charlie Brown is a lovable loser character, but what they seemed to forget with Yamcha in the ToP stuff is that half of lovable loser is "lovable," not "pitiable."
It's funny you mention Charlie Brown here, because it was another Peanuts reference, in one of your DBD videos, that made me realize why I'm not bothered by the way Yamcha and other human/animal characters from early in the series were handled after the arrival of the Saiyans: the one about Shermy. I'm completely in sympathy to the idea that Toriyama might've gotten tired of working with Yamcha, Launch, Puar, and Oolong, the same way Schultz did with Shermy, Patty, and Violet, and opted to reduce their roles and bulk up those of characters he was more interested in. Granted, Dragon Ball being a continuity series means that they can't fade into the background as easily as Shermy and the others could in Peanuts, but since Yamcha had become a supporting character rather than a featured player long before the Saiyan saga, I don't think it's that jarring.

And I can't say I'm really bothered by the way Yamcha and the others were treated in the 90s, either. I don't find the writing of Yamcha in the Cell saga particularly mean-spirited. His inglorious assault at the hands of No. 20, and his declaration that he's outclassed and will just get in the way, isn't particularly glamorous, but the others in the group don't mock or insult him for it. The fact that a combative character in an action story would come to find himself outclassed is a blunt but fair tact to take, and using it for a supporting character who the author (might have) been struggling to writer for anymore is even more fair. To be perfectly frank, I felt that Krillin's emergence as the one human to remain prominent on the point of action from the Freeza saga on, with a few traits from Yamcha and a few moves from Tenshinhan absorbed into his already-more-interesting personality, made for a better arrangement.

Now, from the three-arms-length distance that I've observed Super - perhaps Yamcha has been made too much of the butt of jokes in-universe. I'm not quite sure why he couldn't have been permanently retired as a character if that was all they could think to do with him.

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Re: What to do about Yamcha's characterization? Be Peaceful.

Post by KBABZ » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:29 pm

Rubens wrote:
goku the krump dancer wrote:My only issue with the loveable loser thing is that it partly comes off as Krillin's gimmick as well. Yeah sure two characters can wear the same hat but one its certainly gonna shine more on one than the other. Since he's used in the story more, Krillin has more moments of "damn I feel sorry for him" than Yamcha does.
That's true, except Krillin is recognized as a skilled fighter and has room for a role in battle, whereas I don't really see that going for Yamcha anymore. Therefore I believe he needs something else positive for him.
Not to mention that Krillin is in a loving relationship with 18 and has a child, while Yamcha (who's a ladies man after the original DB arc) has nothing.

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Re: What to do about Yamcha's characterization? Be Peaceful.

Post by Waluigiman » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:05 pm

Rubens wrote:It honestly felt heartbreaking the way he was portrayed in the Tournament of Power arc, specifically in two contexts I dislike: one was him being expeting an invitation for the tournament everyone knew he was never going to get (and unfortunaly the rumors of him joining in to replace Boo only made it more hurtful) and was never told about; second is the fact of him being treated poorly by his life long friends, trusted allies in battle, fellow martial artists, like some sort of unwanted and awkward guy who keeps showing up, which in universe makes no sense if you consider their history. Both scenarios just felt sad and mean to Yamcha because he got nothing from there, no consolation prize or anything.

The baseball episode, even though I didn't particulary cared for it (maybe because I don't care for baseball in general, it doesn't matter), was a reasonable way to write him because even though he was the center of the joke, he got that win in the end.
goku the krump dancer wrote:My only issue with the loveable loser thing is that it partly comes off as Krillin's gimmick as well. Yeah sure two characters can wear the same hat but one its certainly gonna shine more on one than the other. Since he's used in the story more, Krillin has more moments of "damn I feel sorry for him" than Yamcha does.
That's true, except Krillin is recognized as a skilled fighter and has room for a role in battle, whereas I don't really see that going for Yamcha anymore. Therefore I believe he needs something else positive for him.
This is probably why I preferred the manga's portrayal of why he wasn't there because at least there was the excuse that they were not thinking clearly because they were in a moment of stress and Bulma actually tried to suggest him only to get interrupted by others. Still unfortunate of how they do everything to keep him from doing something good. Still felt wrong. This was a wasted opportunity to add him to the team just to show that it was not a mistake befriending him and they could had let him defeat at least 3 fighters before meeting someone stronger.
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Re: What to do about Yamcha's characterization? Be Peaceful.

Post by Luso Saiyan » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:26 pm

Rubens wrote:second is the fact of him being treated poorly by his life long friends, trusted allies in battle, fellow martial artists, like some sort of unwanted and awkward guy who keeps showing up, which in universe makes no sense if you consider their history.
I agree with this. I felt it was needlessly pandering to a fandom joke, and worse, they did it in a way that was too on the nose.

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Re: What to do about Yamcha's characterization? Be Peaceful.

Post by samuraix123 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:03 pm

I love Yamcha and personally I don't see what's funny about the meme of his death and why it's funny. I'm a dub fan just as much as a sub fan but I will admit I never see the japanese only fans making memes like that.
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Re: What to do about Yamcha's characterization? Be Peaceful.

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:36 am

samuraix123 wrote:I love Yamcha and personally I don't see what's funny about the meme of his death and why it's funny. I'm a dub fan just as much as a sub fan but I will admit I never see the japanese only fans making memes like that.
There was a tie in event in Japan for the movie where fans could pose as dead Yamcha. It's definitely not a west only meme at this point & it also made it's way into DBS when Toei referenced it in the baseball episode.
But I do agree I don't find it funny at all, tbh I don't find any of the meme's this fanbase find funny actually funny (most of the time it's lazy like replacing words or music over something, like how is that supposed to be funny?)

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Re: What to do about Yamcha's characterization? Be Peaceful.

Post by KBABZ » Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:07 am

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
samuraix123 wrote:I love Yamcha and personally I don't see what's funny about the meme of his death and why it's funny. I'm a dub fan just as much as a sub fan but I will admit I never see the japanese only fans making memes like that.
There was a tie in event in Japan for the movie where fans could pose as dead Yamcha. It's definitely not a west only meme at this point & it also made it's way into DBS when Toei referenced it in the baseball episode.
But I do agree I don't find it funny at all, tbh I don't find any of the meme's this fanbase find funny actually funny (most of the time it's lazy like replacing words or music over something, like how is that supposed to be funny?)
I recall there was also a Dragon Ball Resteraunt that served a rice dish in the shape of a crater with a cut-out Yamcha placed in it, too.

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Re: What to do about Yamcha's characterization? Be Peaceful.

Post by BWri » Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:34 am

KBABZ wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
samuraix123 wrote:I love Yamcha and personally I don't see what's funny about the meme of his death and why it's funny. I'm a dub fan just as much as a sub fan but I will admit I never see the japanese only fans making memes like that.
There was a tie in event in Japan for the movie where fans could pose as dead Yamcha. It's definitely not a west only meme at this point & it also made it's way into DBS when Toei referenced it in the baseball episode.
But I do agree I don't find it funny at all, tbh I don't find any of the meme's this fanbase find funny actually funny (most of the time it's lazy like replacing words or music over something, like how is that supposed to be funny?)
I recall there was also a Dragon Ball Resteraunt that served a rice dish in the shape of a crater with a cut-out Yamcha placed in it, too.
Wow! That's intense. There's also that dead Yamcha figure and now there's a Funko Pop version Image
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Re: What to do about Yamcha's characterization? Be Peaceful.

Post by samuraix123 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:28 am

Yeah see...Stuff like that kills me. I'm not gonna get too worked up over it since it's just a cartoon but I just can't understand why 1 mans sacrifice has turned into a laughing issue.
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