Does the original Dragonball need a reboot?

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Does the original Dragonball need a reboot?

Post by ABED » Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:55 pm

It's the magic of Toriyama's story, not the dub.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Dagon
Banned
Posts: 120
Joined: Mon May 25, 2015 11:29 am

Re: Does the original Dragonball need a reboot?

Post by Dagon » Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:11 pm

I would love a Kai-esque recut of original DB, however DBZ Kai was released during a lull in the franchise, and with Super in full swing and returning in anime form eventually, chances are we won't get it. Not unless they want to double the workload of the voice cast by making them do two series simultaneously.
Kunzait_83 wrote:
FoolsGil wrote: Any drama and gravitas that pivotal scene ever had is just completely sapped dry by how cringingly shrill and over-the-top unnatural everyone sounds. Not a single authentic emotion to be had in what's supposed to be (and certainly was in the original) one of the most achingly heartfelt moments in the whole series. I stand by every word I ever said about this dub: these people cannot fucking act. At all.
Could not. Past tense please. That was when they were much less experienced.

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6201
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Does the original Dragonball need a reboot?

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:30 pm

Dagon wrote:I would love a Kai-esque recut of original DB, however DBZ Kai was released during a lull in the franchise, and with Super in full swing and returning in anime form eventually, chances are we won't get it. Not unless they want to double the workload of the voice cast by making them do two series simultaneously.
Kunzait_83 wrote:
FoolsGil wrote: Any drama and gravitas that pivotal scene ever had is just completely sapped dry by how cringingly shrill and over-the-top unnatural everyone sounds. Not a single authentic emotion to be had in what's supposed to be (and certainly was in the original) one of the most achingly heartfelt moments in the whole series. I stand by every word I ever said about this dub: these people cannot fucking act. At all.
Could not. Past tense please. That was when they were much less experienced.
They had been doing it for four years by that point in Dragon Ball

User avatar
FoolsGil
I Live Here
Posts: 4969
Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 10:37 pm

Re: Does the original Dragonball need a reboot?

Post by FoolsGil » Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:12 pm

I seem to have been misproperly quoted.

User avatar
Dagon
Banned
Posts: 120
Joined: Mon May 25, 2015 11:29 am

Re: Does the original Dragonball need a reboot?

Post by Dagon » Thu Dec 27, 2018 5:09 am

MasenkoHA wrote:
Dagon wrote:I would love a Kai-esque recut of original DB, however DBZ Kai was released during a lull in the franchise, and with Super in full swing and returning in anime form eventually, chances are we won't get it. Not unless they want to double the workload of the voice cast by making them do two series simultaneously.
Kunzait_83 wrote:
Could not. Past tense please. That was when they were much less experienced.
They had been doing it for four years by that point in Dragon Ball
They were still chasing the voice-over style of the original DBZ dub; goofy and cartoonishly silly. If they did a redub now, rest assured the voices would be more appropriate.

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6201
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Does the original Dragonball need a reboot?

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Dec 27, 2018 1:30 pm

Dagon wrote:
MasenkoHA wrote:
Dagon wrote:I would love a Kai-esque recut of original DB, however DBZ Kai was released during a lull in the franchise, and with Super in full swing and returning in anime form eventually, chances are we won't get it. Not unless they want to double the workload of the voice cast by making them do two series simultaneously.

Could not. Past tense please. That was when they were much less experienced.
They had been doing it for four years by that point in Dragon Ball
They were still chasing the voice-over style of the original DBZ dub; goofy and cartoonishly silly. If they did a redub now, rest assured the voices would be more appropriate.
I mean yeah to a point. Vollmer and Nadolny are long gone thank god. Although I don’t like Clinkenbeard’s Goku at all it just doesn’t fit even if her acting is better. Mcfarland really didn’t get any better in Kai but I never hated him nearly as the others seem to. Burgmeier was still pretty terrible in Kai as Tien. And I hate Mccoy’s Launch even though I like her 18

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Does the original Dragonball need a reboot?

Post by ABED » Thu Dec 27, 2018 3:51 pm

I think people's opinions of Clinkenbeard's Goku is overly harsh especially given how little we've heard it, nor do I agree at all with that assessment of Burgmeier. I like him in the role, especially now that the rasp is more or less completely gone. I know I'll get some scowls, but I like it more than the OG JPN voice. I couldn't pick that one out of a line up. McFarland is pretty good with the comedic side of Muten Roshi, but he has no gravitas.

The biggest changes that need to be made are to mostly the side characters like Kaio, Reacoom, Chichi, and Gyumao.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Kokonoe
Not Banned
Posts: 649
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:26 pm

Re: Does the original Dragonball need a reboot?

Post by Kokonoe » Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:09 am

MasenkoHA wrote:People like crap from when they were kids
On that same thought, one could also say Dragon Ball is crap because we have fond memories of it as a kid. I could honestly go out of my way to write why Dragon Ball isn't timeless in a few areas and some parts have aged badly, or how there are so many inconsistencies with the story which only piled up with each new arc and some within the very arc the content was introduced.

At the end of the day it boils down to how much you weigh the flaws and the pros of the content. Dragon Ball isn't flawless, neither are the voice actors chosen for the dub, but some people enjoy the pros of these voice actors despite some of the flaws they introduced to the series in the sound and acting.

People can act the part well, but if it's not the sound they want to hear, then it doesn't matter much to that person's own preference of how the character should sound like. Some would rather take a lesser skilled actor that sounded more to their preference than one who can brilliantly act but sounds unlike what they envision.

How we all weigh the flaws of everything and the pros is up to the individual. I personally weigh the pros of Nadolny above her flaws because the voice speaks well to what I want out of Gohan and envision the character to be. Certainly not because I was a kid, but it's just how I honestly feel.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Does the original Dragonball need a reboot?

Post by ABED » Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:20 am

Kokonoe wrote:
MasenkoHA wrote:People like crap from when they were kids
On that same thought, one could also say Dragon Ball is crap because we have fond memories of it as a kid. I could honestly go out of my way to write why Dragon Ball isn't timeless in a few areas and some parts have aged badly, or how there are so many inconsistencies with the story which only piled up with each new arc and some within the very arc the content was introduced.

At the end of the day it boils down to how much you weigh the flaws and the pros of the content. Dragon Ball isn't flawless, neither are the voice actors chosen for the dub, but some people enjoy the pros of these voice actors despite some of the flaws they introduced to the series in the sound and acting.

People can act the part well, but if it's not the sound they want to hear, then it doesn't matter much to that person's own preference of how the character should sound like. Some would rather take a lesser skilled actor that sounded more to their preference than one who can brilliantly act but sounds unlike what they envision.

How we all weigh the flaws of everything and the pros is up to the individual. I personally weigh the pros of Nadolny above her flaws because the voice speaks well to what I want out of Gohan and envision the character to be. Certainly not because I was a kid, but it's just how I honestly feel.
While I agree that it's how you weigh the pros and cons, there's much more artistic merit to DB than most Saturday morning cartoons, many of which were literally designed to sell toys.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6201
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Does the original Dragonball need a reboot?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:18 am

Kokonoe wrote:
MasenkoHA wrote:People like crap from when they were kids
On that same thought, one could also say Dragon Ball is crap because we have fond memories of it as a kid. I could honestly go out of my way to write why Dragon Ball isn't timeless in a few areas and some parts have aged badly, or how there are so many inconsistencies with the story which only piled up with each new arc and some within the very arc the content was introduced.
As could most fans

.
People can act the part well, but if it's not the sound they want to hear, then it doesn't matter much to that person's own preference of how the character should sound like. Some would rather take a lesser skilled actor that sounded more to their preference than one who can brilliantly act but sounds unlike what they envision.
Which is how I would describe Nadolny’s Goku. There’s nothing wrong with the sound of her voice. I actually think it fits Goku quite well, despite sounding nothing like Nozawa. The rough and raspy sound actually suits a young wild child who lived out in seclusion from the rest of the world. The problem is she can’t act. Her deliveries are stilted and unnatural.
. I personally weigh the pros of Nadolny above her flaws because the voice speaks well to what I want out of Gohan and envision the character to be. Certainly not because I was a kid, but it's just how I honestly feel.
I will never understand why anyone think her voice fits Gohan. It’s too old sounding for one. It also doesn’t fit the character at all. Gohan is suppose to be sweet, polite, more introspective than his father ever was. Even when Nadolny’s voice is more age appropriate for Gohan (during the Cell Games) it’s still so horribly ill fitting of the character.

User avatar
Kunzait_83
I Live Here
Posts: 2974
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 5:19 pm

Re: Does the original Dragonball need a reboot?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:59 am

Kokonoe wrote:
Kunzait_83 wrote:The nostalgia of every FUNimation dub fan on the planet can rightly go to hell and get fucked. Seriously, this shit is just totally indefensible on even the most lax and forgiving of metrics.
This is really an inappropriate way to go about your argument.
Look, whether people want to cop to this or not, there's simply no denying that "nostalgia" has been overwhelmingly and unequivocally the central basis of the arguments and defenses of most dub fans since literally more than a decade ago now. "This is what I grew up with", "this is what I imprinted onto when I was 5", "this is the version I have always known and been most familiar with" etc. This has been the central-most rallying cry of FUNimation apologists for as long as this forum has been around, at a minimum.

And its beyond tiresome. Its BEEN long beyond tiresome since years and years and years ago now. Not just for the Dragon Ball dubs, but for EVERYTHING else in media that this stupid, silly, childish argument keeps getting continually used for. Just because you happened to experience Example A first before Example B later down the road, doesn't therefore mean that Example A is innately superior just by sheer virtue of your personal chronology.

At the risk of further offending folks like yourself, here's the blunt reality: no one gives a damn about what you, or anyone else, happened to grow up with. Sorry/not sorry, but that is TOTALLY and completely irrelevant when taking on ANYTHING with even an ounce of critical thinking.

Like everyone else, I was once a 4 year old myself: I was exposed to a LOT of garbage at that age, just like everyone else. As a 30-something year old man, I'm not clinging desperately onto stuff that CLEARLY doesn't stand up to scrutiny just because I happened to see it at such an early point in my life: that very notion is not only illogical and inherently ridiculous on its face, it's frankly idiotic. I'm not carrying a torch as a 30-something for Sesame Street just because I saw it as a 3 year old. I'm not giving sincere Dr. Seuss recommendations to other (childless) adults my age just because I happened to first learn how to read on some of those books. And I'm not carrying a sincere and unironic torch for things like the 1980s Fred Wolf Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles cartoon or Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers purely because those happened to rule over children's pop culture at the time when I myself was a child.

Put simply: when discussing anything on a more critical-level (as is the purpose of forums like this one), I don't care in the slightest about what anyone happened to see first or grow up with. And I fully extend that to myself as well: there's a LOT of garbage that I saw from when I was a child that I am more than happy to throw under the bus and fully cop to being worthless crap that isn't worth anyone's time or enthusiasm, no matter HOW much personal sentiment I might feel towards it.

By that same token, no one here on this forum is arguing for the idea that Dragon Ball itself (as a work unto itself) is somehow flawless and without missteps. Take one look around here, and you'll find any number of threads and posts dedicated to ripping its flaws and failings to pieces. Kanzenshuu as a community, for all its own flaws and for all the very real issues that I have had with it for some time now in various areas... it is certainly if nothing else NOT wanting for members who are more than willing to be very real and up front about Dragon Ball's (as a broader work's) critical failings.

By contrast however... you'll find NO END of people (not just here, but in DB fandom overall) who bend themselves over backwards into ridiculous pretzel logic to forgive the FUNimation dub specifically of most/all of its most blatant and inexcusable failings no matter what, almost entirely and solely because "Its what I grew up with and I have my nostalgia for it".

Like you yourself said, the question becomes do the pros genuinely outweigh the cons? Obviously many of us here think so for Dragon Ball itself (version notwithstanding), for one reason or another and to whatever extent or other, or else we wouldn't even be here.

And if that DOESN'T hold true for someone (be it you or anyone else here reading this), if you happen to be someone who personally DOESN'T think that Dragon Ball - in ANY version - holds up to ANY kind of adult scrutiny in any way whatsoever, and yet the main reason that you're still on here talking about it is mostly due to some kind of stubbornly clung to nostalgic attachment: I would then STRONGLY advise you ("you" meaning more broadly to anyone reading this) to drastically rethink and re-evaluate that entire approach in the first place and perhaps place much more time and priority on things that actually DO enrich your adult mind in some way.

Even if that means dropping Dragon Ball entirely: if Dragon Ball has at some point just ceased to do ANYTHING for your adult sensibilities in any way, then there's absolutely NOTHING wrong in the slightest with just walking the fuck away from it entirely, and focusing your priorities on stuff that DOES jibe more with your present-day self. People are SUPPOSED to change as they grow up and get older, and this bizarre, creepily pathological need and yearning that so many fans seem to have of wanting to desperately cling onto their elementary school aged sensibilities well deep into their 20s and beyond is just... wholly and completely unnecessary, not to mention kind of disturbing on some level.
Last edited by Kunzait_83 on Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
http://80s90sdragonballart.tumblr.com/

Kunzait's Wuxia Thread
Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

User avatar
KBABZ
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: The tallest tower in West City

Re: Does the original Dragonball need a reboot?

Post by KBABZ » Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:19 am

MasenkoHA wrote:
Kokonoe wrote:People can act the part well, but if it's not the sound they want to hear, then it doesn't matter much to that person's own preference of how the character should sound like. Some would rather take a lesser skilled actor that sounded more to their preference than one who can brilliantly act but sounds unlike what they envision.
Which is how I would describe Nadolny’s Goku. There’s nothing wrong with the sound of her voice. I actually think it fits Goku quite well, despite sounding nothing like Nozawa. The rough and raspy sound actually suits a young wild child who lived out in seclusion from the rest of the world. The problem is she can’t act. Her deliveries are stilted and unnatural.
I've explained elsewhere why I personally think this actually suits the character. Considering all Goku had to talk to was his grandpa (who died who knows how long before Bulma meets him), it makes sense to me why he wouldn't be experienced with talking naturally to other people. Intentional or not, for me it's a nice way to show the uncultured but not unintelligent nature of Goku that's particularly prevalent in his childhood. Scenes like when Goku is told by Jackie the relationship between Tao and the Crane Hermit is when this especially shines.

Kunzait_83 wrote:
Kokonoe wrote:
Kunzait_83 wrote:The nostalgia of every FUNimation dub fan on the planet can rightly go to hell and get fucked. Seriously, this shit is just totally indefensible on even the most lax and forgiving of metrics.
This is really an inappropriate way to go about your argument.
[Stuff and things, read above.]
For me at least, the appropriate word wouldn't be nostalgia (not that I don't have any obviously) and more established expectations, almost like muscle memory. I'll use a recent example: a few months ago the Spyro Reignited Trilogy came out, and in many instances the original voice actors such as Tom Kenny returned to play the characters again. Despite this, I was often completely thrown off because 20 years have aged the actor and the lines were not performed with the same cadence and emphasis on specific words as before. I'm expecting something because I'm playing classic Spyro and yet I'm thrown off because this important aspect that I can mimic myself entirely from memory is now different. That doesn't make it bad, it just makes it harder for me to get used to. The game also features remade music, and while all the notes are the same, the sounds and instruments used are often very different, but luckily I can flick back to the original because it's easier than adjusting to the replacement score. That sounds very familiar to me.

It's like if you've drunk Dr. Pepper for your entire life, then somebody gets you to try Coca Cola by saying "It's the same but better". You're not going to have a great first reaction regardless of whether Coke is actually better or not, and you'll probably opt to stick with Dr. Pepper rather than trying the thing somebody else says is better.

ZodaEX
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 228
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:03 am

Re: Does the original Dragonball need a reboot?

Post by ZodaEX » Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:43 pm

KBABZ wrote:
MasenkoHA wrote:
Kokonoe wrote:People can act the part well, but if it's not the sound they want to hear, then it doesn't matter much to that person's own preference of how the character should sound like. Some would rather take a lesser skilled actor that sounded more to their preference than one who can brilliantly act but sounds unlike what they envision.
Which is how I would describe Nadolny’s Goku. There’s nothing wrong with the sound of her voice. I actually think it fits Goku quite well, despite sounding nothing like Nozawa. The rough and raspy sound actually suits a young wild child who lived out in seclusion from the rest of the world. The problem is she can’t act. Her deliveries are stilted and unnatural.
I've explained elsewhere why I personally think this actually suits the character. Considering all Goku had to talk to was his grandpa (who died who knows how long before Bulma meets him), it makes sense to me why he wouldn't be experienced with talking naturally to other people. Intentional or not, for me it's a nice way to show the uncultured but not unintelligent nature of Goku that's particularly prevalent in his childhood. Scenes like when Goku is told by Jackie the relationship between Tao and the Crane Hermit is when this especially shines.

Kunzait_83 wrote:
Kokonoe wrote: This is really an inappropriate way to go about your argument.
[Stuff and things, read above.]
For me at least, the appropriate word wouldn't be nostalgia (not that I don't have any obviously) and more established expectations, almost like muscle memory. I'll use a recent example: a few months ago the Spyro Reignited Trilogy came out, and in many instances the original voice actors such as Tom Kenny returned to play the characters again. Despite this, I was often completely thrown off because 20 years have aged the actor and the lines were not performed with the same cadence and emphasis on specific words as before. I'm expecting something because I'm playing classic Spyro and yet I'm thrown off because this important aspect that I can mimic myself entirely from memory is now different. That doesn't make it bad, it just makes it harder for me to get used to. The game also features remade music, and while all the notes are the same, the sounds and instruments used are often very different, but luckily I can flick back to the original because it's easier than adjusting to the replacement score. That sounds very familiar to me.

It's like if you've drunk Dr. Pepper for your entire life, then somebody gets you to try Coca Cola by saying "It's the same but better". You're not going to have a great first reaction regardless of whether Coke is actually better or not, and you'll probably opt to stick with Dr. Pepper rather than trying the thing somebody else says is better.
The only soda I had in my life until age 8 was in fact Dr. Pepper, and I was never a fan of it either, however I would drink it often because I was super addicted to sugar. When I tried my first Coca-cola at age 8, I did like it better than Dr. Pepper on my very first taste. Did I think it was amazing? Heck, no. But I thought it was superior to Dr. Pepper by a mile.

User avatar
Zephyr
I Live Here
Posts: 4021
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:20 pm

Re: Does the original Dragonball need a reboot?

Post by Zephyr » Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:23 am

Kokonoe wrote:
MasenkoHA wrote:People like crap from when they were kids
On that same thought, one could also say Dragon Ball is crap because we have fond memories of it as a kid. I could honestly go out of my way to write why Dragon Ball isn't timeless in a few areas and some parts have aged badly, or how there are so many inconsistencies with the story which only piled up with each new arc and some within the very arc the content was introduced.
I mean, a lot of people indeed do exactly that (re: argue that Dragon Ball is crap), and pretty much all of it (in my experience) seems to be largely predicated on genre illiteracy, willful ignorance of/ambivalence toward the author's style, or both.

Criticism of the dub's quality is hardly rooted in ignorance or misconception. On the contrary, more often than not, its defense seems to be so rooted.

That's not to say that Dragon Ball is flawless and that everyone critiquing it any way is doing so from a place of ignorance and misconception, or that the dub is 100% devoid of any merit and that everyone arguing those merits is doing so from a place of ignorance and misconception, but that still feels like one hell of a false analogy.

User avatar
Kokonoe
Not Banned
Posts: 649
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:26 pm

Re: Does the original Dragonball need a reboot?

Post by Kokonoe » Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:34 am

Zephyr wrote:
Kokonoe wrote:
MasenkoHA wrote:People like crap from when they were kids
On that same thought, one could also say Dragon Ball is crap because we have fond memories of it as a kid. I could honestly go out of my way to write why Dragon Ball isn't timeless in a few areas and some parts have aged badly, or how there are so many inconsistencies with the story which only piled up with each new arc and some within the very arc the content was introduced.
I mean, a lot of people indeed do exactly that (re: argue that Dragon Ball is crap), and pretty much all of it (in my experience) seems to be largely predicated on genre illiteracy, willful ignorance of/ambivalence toward the author's style, or both.

Criticism of the dub's quality is hardly rooted in ignorance or misconception. On the contrary, more often than not, its defense seems to be so rooted.

That's not to say that Dragon Ball is flawless and that everyone critiquing it any way is doing so from a place of ignorance and misconception, or that the dub is 100% devoid of any merit and that everyone arguing those merits is doing so from a place of ignorance and misconception, but that still feels like one hell of a false analogy.
Is it? Because it really is all subjective in the end. Which is something people fail to realize regardless of how important they make themselves or their views sound.

User avatar
Zephyr
I Live Here
Posts: 4021
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:20 pm

Re: Does the original Dragonball need a reboot?

Post by Zephyr » Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:32 am

Kokonoe wrote:
Zephyr wrote:that still feels like one hell of a false analogy.
Is it? Because it really is all subjective in the end. Which is something people fail to realize regardless of how important they make themselves or their views sound.
Something being subjective does not necessesarily entail that it's not worth discussing. You point out something that is already understood going in, and don't add anything else. That comes across as a conversation stopper. If one is no longer interested in a conversation, why continue carrying it on? That comes across as disingenuous.

Just because preferences are inherently subjective, it does not follow that we cannot share some subjective preferences. If we find that we do indeed have some subjective preferences in common, then we might together endeavor to identify works that objectively, quantifiably, measure up to those standards. If we both want a shelf to be 5 feet long (a subjective preference), we can determine the length of the shelf (an objective measurement).

One of the primary criticisms being levied at the dub is that its acting does not sound natural: conversations in it do not resemble actual, believable conversations that living, flesh and blood, human people typically have with one another.

If we both value acting that sounds natural, then we can compare one work, whose objectively meeting our shared preferences is to be determined, with another work, whose objectively meeting our shared preferences is confirmed. Doing this, we can see if the one work clears the bar. Hell, we could compare the one work directly to reality.

Some indicators of relative superiority/inferiority to the shared/common standard may be more salient to one person than the next. One person's understanding of "natural sounding" may differ from another's. This is due to a combination of cultural/regional differences, gaps in age, less thorough physical experience of different walks of life and cultures, less thorough experience of art/media/entertainment, and more. This bridge of the conversation can be crossed later on.

Do you share a preference for acting that sounds natural? If you don't, then fair enough, there's less common ground to find. If you do, what are some other works that you would argue have acting that indeed sounds natural?

User avatar
Robo4900
I Live Here
Posts: 4383
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:24 pm
Location: In another time and place...

Re: Does the original Dragonball need a reboot?

Post by Robo4900 » Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:28 pm

ABED wrote:While I agree that it's how you weigh the pros and cons, there's much more artistic merit to DB than most Saturday morning cartoons, many of which were literally designed to sell toys.
The networks and such having shows made to sell toys because TV cartoons in and themselves don't maky money, doesn't mean the art itself is without merit.
The point of Dragon Ball is to enjoy it. Never lose sight of that.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Does the original Dragonball need a reboot?

Post by ABED » Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:18 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
ABED wrote:While I agree that it's how you weigh the pros and cons, there's much more artistic merit to DB than most Saturday morning cartoons, many of which were literally designed to sell toys.
The networks and such having shows made to sell toys because TV cartoons in and themselves don't maky money, doesn't mean the art itself is without merit.
While true, would you consider He-Man art?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Robo4900
I Live Here
Posts: 4383
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:24 pm
Location: In another time and place...

Re: Does the original Dragonball need a reboot?

Post by Robo4900 » Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:18 pm

ABED wrote:
Robo4900 wrote:
ABED wrote:While I agree that it's how you weigh the pros and cons, there's much more artistic merit to DB than most Saturday morning cartoons, many of which were literally designed to sell toys.
The networks and such having shows made to sell toys because TV cartoons in and themselves don't maky money, doesn't mean the art itself is without merit.
While true, would you consider He-Man art?
Yes. It's just not good art.

A child painting stick figures on a canvas is art as much as the Mona Lisa, even if one is a piece of high art, while another is simply a crude child's drawing.

Similarly, He-Man is as much art as Adventure Time, Ben 10, Batman: The Animated Series, or Gargoyles are art. It's just a fairly crappy, transparent toy commercial compared to the other, generally much better-written material that people would typically consider the "True art" of the medium.

And of course, similarly, EA Sports games are as much art as Papers Please, Bioshock, The Walking Dead, Half-Life, or Portal are. They're just the cheap, mass-market shovelware stuff, as opposed to the true classics of the medium.

And just to round this off, Batman V Superman is just as much art as Dead Poets Society. But while BVS is a cynically-constructed, ill-conceived, crappy mess, DPS is a classic.

Bad art =/= not art, and art =/= good art. :)
The point of Dragon Ball is to enjoy it. Never lose sight of that.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Does the original Dragonball need a reboot?

Post by ABED » Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:44 pm

I get the irony of me pointing out someone else being pedantic. I understand your point and agree, but it's semantics and beside the point.

Sports games aren't art. They are games. They aren't stories. Games like Final Fantasy 7 and Bio-Shock told stories.

You're splitting hairs. DB has issues, but it has merit. The acting is good, the stories go somewhere, and the characters grow, in many cases literally. It also blended genres pretty seamlessly. Most Saturday morning cartoons from the 80s were the same from episode to episode. It was reset TV.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

Post Reply