Toei poll "Favorite Dragon Ball Movie of All Time"

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Re: Toei poll "Favorite Dragon Ball Movie of All Time"

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Dec 27, 2018 5:24 pm

ABED wrote:I do think it's a great source of conflict and tension. Vegeta is trying desperately to keep a very fickle god from destroying his home and he's surrounded by people who could set him off.
I think you're confused about my point. I wasn't talking about BoG in comparison to anything specific. Yes, Movie 13 does it fine, but plenty of movies have characters go through development and it feels trite and there because they probably read Syd Field's book about screenwriting saying that you need it. Lastly, you say that not a lot happens in BoG, but that's fairly vague.

I'd put DBZ movie 1 above 13. It's might be shorter, but it has some of the best animation and fights in all of DB, Toriyama's story included. Goku dodging the blades is nothing short of brilliant.
Regarding my statement about how not a lot happens in BoG, I mentioned earlier that a good chunk of the movie takes place at birthday party, which most of the characters don’t really move away from. There isn’t really a big story going on. It’s mostly just the characters (except for Vegeta) having fun until Beerus gets angry.

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Re: Toei poll "Favorite Dragon Ball Movie of All Time"

Post by Forte224 » Thu Dec 27, 2018 5:28 pm

Yet you can do nothing to prove that's what's going on, nor can you explain how movie 6 fits into that theory besides "Uh, it's MORE recent than DB so uh yeah" (despite the fact that 10 and 11 have Broli which would fit your theory way better due to "recency bias" of the newest movie, except they're not on the list). Maybe they're just not as popular because they are essentially half-retellings of the DB anime arcs. Maybe it's because DBZ as a general rule is more popular than DB. Maybe people just plain like them more and don't see the quality that you see in the DB movies. This forum is becoming more and more consistently filled with posts trying to invalidate people that think differently than them. That's why I'm having such an issue here.

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Re: Toei poll "Favorite Dragon Ball Movie of All Time"

Post by ABED » Thu Dec 27, 2018 5:39 pm

Forte224 wrote:Maybe people just plain like them more and don't see the quality that you see in the DB movies. This forum is becoming overrun with people trying to invalidate people that think differently than them.
Did I point the finger at anyone specifically? Did I talk down to anyone? No, I posited a theory about why I think the later films get way more attention. I didn't realize I had to explain the concept of recency bias or why it doesn't have to be literally only the most recent events for the concept to apply. It's about tendency. And do you not see the irony of being mad at people trying to invalidate others opinions and yet you spent a page doing that to me for merely positing a theory? Fine, you disagree with my point and take the other position, that's what this forum is made for, but you seem to have taken my statement personally.
Regarding my statement about how not a lot happens in BoG, I mentioned earlier that a good chunk of the movie takes place at birthday party, which most of the characters don’t really move away from. There isn’t really a big story going on. It’s mostly just the characters (except for Vegeta) having fun until Beerus gets angry.
That's just the setting. I'm not seeing your point. It's no different from any story where you see the protagonists having a fun time only to have the antagonist arrive and spoil it. A god is intent on destroying their world, and we learn about a bigger universe than even we knew. I don't know how that doesn't constitute a big story.
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Re: Toei poll "Favorite Dragon Ball Movie of All Time"

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Dec 27, 2018 5:58 pm

ABED wrote:That's just the setting. I'm not seeing your point. It's no different from any story where you see the protagonists having a fun time only to have the antagonist arrive and spoil it. A god is intent on destroying their world, and we learn about a bigger universe than even we knew. I don't know how that doesn't constitute a big story.
It’s the setting, but it’s a fairly mundane setting that doesn’t come across as particularly cinematic. Let me put it this way, IIRC, the entire film takes place within a single day, and pretty much that entire day is spent at a birthday party.

Also, I wouldn’t consider a god attempting to destroy their world to be any more of a story that what any of the other movies had, and the revelation about how there are other universes besides the universe that Goku and his friends live in was a tacked on line near the end of the film.

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Re: Toei poll "Favorite Dragon Ball Movie of All Time"

Post by ABED » Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:30 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
ABED wrote:That's just the setting. I'm not seeing your point. It's no different from any story where you see the protagonists having a fun time only to have the antagonist arrive and spoil it. A god is intent on destroying their world, and we learn about a bigger universe than even we knew. I don't know how that doesn't constitute a big story.
It’s the setting, but it’s a fairly mundane setting that doesn’t come across as particularly cinematic. Let me put it this way, IIRC, the entire film takes place within a single day, and pretty much that entire day is spent at a birthday party.

Also, I wouldn’t consider a god attempting to destroy their world to be any more of a story that what any of the other movies had, and the revelation about how there are other universes besides the universe that Goku and his friends live in was a tacked on line near the end of the film.
The revelation doesn't feel tacked on at all. It feels organic to the story. Goku had just defeated Majin Buu and now he's found out there are gods of destruction and beings that are even stronger? That's Goku's dream, but to find out there are entire universes out there he has to explore, that goes to the core of the movie, Goku, and DB as a whole.

Most of the arcs in DB and the movies have short time frames, not seeing the issue. The birthday party is just the setting and it gets interrupted. Movie 7 is a shopping day in the city that gets interrupted.
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Re: Toei poll "Favorite Dragon Ball Movie of All Time"

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:44 pm

ABED wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:
ABED wrote:That's just the setting. I'm not seeing your point. It's no different from any story where you see the protagonists having a fun time only to have the antagonist arrive and spoil it. A god is intent on destroying their world, and we learn about a bigger universe than even we knew. I don't know how that doesn't constitute a big story.
It’s the setting, but it’s a fairly mundane setting that doesn’t come across as particularly cinematic. Let me put it this way, IIRC, the entire film takes place within a single day, and pretty much that entire day is spent at a birthday party.

Also, I wouldn’t consider a god attempting to destroy their world to be any more of a story that what any of the other movies had, and the revelation about how there are other universes besides the universe that Goku and his friends live in was a tacked on line near the end of the film.
The revelation doesn't feel tacked on at all. It feels organic to the story. Goku had just defeated Majin Buu and now he's found out there are gods of destruction and beings that are even stronger? That's Goku's dream, but to find out there are entire universes out there he has to explore, that goes to the core of the movie, Goku, and DB as a whole.

Most of the arcs in DB and the movies have short time frames, not seeing the issue. The birthday party is just the setting and it gets interrupted. Movie 7 is a shopping day in the city that gets interrupted.
I get why the line about multiple universes was put in the film, but it sort of came out of nowhere. What reason did Beerus have for telling Goku that? Even Toei decided to cut that bit out when they adapted the film for Super.

I don’t think movie 7 is a good point of comparison. That film isn’t exactly held in high regard, and I think it would be doing BoG a disservice to compare the two.

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Re: Toei poll "Favorite Dragon Ball Movie of All Time"

Post by ABED » Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:58 pm

I'd have to see the line in context, but while maybe the way they got from A to B was inelegant, it overall fits the point of the film. It doesn't feel like world building that's beside the point. The film was introducing the audience and the characters to a whole bunch of new concepts.

I still don't understand what your issue is with the setting being around a birthday party. You say that's not cinematic, but the story has several different locations including Kaio and Beerus' worlds, and the final fight takes Beerus and Goku over the globe and into the stratosphere. It's hardly as mundane as you're making it out to be. And while it was a birthday party, it's a party at Capsule Corp in a city, so there's scope. And while Goku does arrive, he doesn't defeat Beerus. He's successful in stopping him from destroying Earth, but he doesn't defeat him. It's a refreshing change of pace.

I like Movie 7, not sure why people have a problem with it.

And while the first three DB movies and the 10th anniversary special adapt arcs, I think the first three do it in an interesting way, the first and third especially. I'd take them any day over Lord Slug, Bio-Broly, Bojack Unbound, and even a good chunk of Movie 8.
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Re: Toei poll "Favorite Dragon Ball Movie of All Time"

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:44 pm

ABED wrote:I'd have to see the line in context, but while maybe the way they got from A to B was inelegant, it overall fits the point of the film. It doesn't feel like world building that's beside the point. The film was introducing the audience and the characters to a whole bunch of new concepts.

I still don't understand what your issue is with the setting being around a birthday party. You say that's not cinematic, but the story has several different locations including Kaio and Beerus' worlds, and the final fight takes Beerus and Goku over the globe and into the stratosphere. It's hardly as mundane as you're making it out to be. And while it was a birthday party, it's a party at Capsule Corp in a city, so there's scope. And while Goku does arrive, he doesn't defeat Beerus. He's successful in stopping him from destroying Earth, but he doesn't defeat him. It's a refreshing change of pace.

I like Movie 7, not sure why people have a problem with it.

And while the first three DB movies and the 10th anniversary special adapt arcs, I think the first three do it in an interesting way, the first and third especially. I'd take them any day over Lord Slug, Bio-Broly, Bojack Unbound, and even a good chunk of Movie 8.
I didn’t say I took issue with setting the movie around a birthday party, or at the very least, that wasn’t what I intended to say. I don’t know why I need to keep mentioning this, but I enjoyed BoG very much, and I definitely consider it to be one of the best Dragon Ball movies to date. I don’t consider the birthday party setting to be a con with the film, but I personally prefer the story that the 13th DBZ movie gave us because I feel that it had more meat to it. Still, BoG is far from being a formulaic movie, and I definitely agree that Goku not being able to defeat the antagonist was a nice touch.

As for why people have a problem with movie 7, I think MistareFusion/Gaffer Tape summed it up pretty well. Basically, the movie was painfully formulaic, and didn’t do anything remotely new or interesting, outside of maybe the bit where Goku absorbed the Genki Dama, and even then, there were already three movies before that where the Genki Dama was used to defeat the villain. I wouldn’t consider it to be as bad as Ressurection ‘F’, since it was mercifully short, and at least had a conflict that Goku actually took seriously, but it was pretty forgettable, even by the standards of the DBZ movies.

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Re: Toei poll "Favorite Dragon Ball Movie of All Time"

Post by Attitudefan » Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:12 pm

I disagree with that list, quite a lot actually. So I guess the general fanbase is pretty much bust with anything without Vegeta eh?

DBZ movies 1-3 are generally really great with cool locations and interesting villains. I think DBZ movie 1 is the spotlight for the pre-Vegeta films but also all films during the initial run. It delvs into godhood and tries to explain how Earth's god is chosen. For once, the enemy doesn't have beef with Goku directly: Garlic has history with Piccolo instead and Goku is just along for the ride. The art style for movie 1 is especially good with the rounder aesthetic which goes wayward with the following films. That and the colour choices are just fantastic and feel a little less Dragon Ball Z and has ties with the mystical side of Dragon Ball (lots of callbacks to DB movie 2). Really, the pre-Vegeta films are terribly overlooked, especially pre-Z films which are fun in their own right.

The Cooler films are an abomination with really poor animation and boring colour choice and location. Guys fight in a forest... we seen that 100 times by this point and they do nothing to change things up and make it interesting. And then there's Namek which is just also a boring backdrop of green skies and some grass. The movie formulae got tired by the Cooler films as well. On thing I'll give kudos to the first Broly film is how they mixed up the way the villains are introduced and serve some backdrop before the big fight. Changing locations was a nice touch too rather than repeat what was seen in the Cooler films.
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Re: Toei poll "Favorite Dragon Ball Movie of All Time"

Post by ABED » Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:03 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
ABED wrote:I'd have to see the line in context, but while maybe the way they got from A to B was inelegant, it overall fits the point of the film. It doesn't feel like world building that's beside the point. The film was introducing the audience and the characters to a whole bunch of new concepts.

I still don't understand what your issue is with the setting being around a birthday party. You say that's not cinematic, but the story has several different locations including Kaio and Beerus' worlds, and the final fight takes Beerus and Goku over the globe and into the stratosphere. It's hardly as mundane as you're making it out to be. And while it was a birthday party, it's a party at Capsule Corp in a city, so there's scope. And while Goku does arrive, he doesn't defeat Beerus. He's successful in stopping him from destroying Earth, but he doesn't defeat him. It's a refreshing change of pace.

I like Movie 7, not sure why people have a problem with it.

And while the first three DB movies and the 10th anniversary special adapt arcs, I think the first three do it in an interesting way, the first and third especially. I'd take them any day over Lord Slug, Bio-Broly, Bojack Unbound, and even a good chunk of Movie 8.
I didn’t say I took issue with setting the movie around a birthday party, or at the very least, that wasn’t what I intended to say. I don’t know why I need to keep mentioning this, but I enjoyed BoG very much, and I definitely consider it to be one of the best Dragon Ball movies to date. I don’t consider the birthday party setting to be a con with the film, but I personally prefer the story that the 13th DBZ movie gave us because I feel that it had more meat to it. Still, BoG is far from being a formulaic movie, and I definitely agree that Goku not being able to defeat the antagonist was a nice touch.

As for why people have a problem with movie 7, I think MistareFusion/Gaffer Tape summed it up pretty well. Basically, the movie was painfully formulaic, and didn’t do anything remotely new or interesting, outside of maybe the bit where Goku absorbed the Genki Dama, and even then, there were already three movies before that where the Genki Dama was used to defeat the villain. I wouldn’t consider it to be as bad as Ressurection ‘F’, since it was mercifully short, and at least had a conflict that Goku actually took seriously, but it was pretty forgettable, even by the standards of the DBZ movies.
My issue with movie 13 is the antagonist. He's a giant monster. While he's cool looking, I was never that interested in Hirudegarn or the guy trying to release it. The beef was between that guy (I forget the imp's name) and Tapion and Trunks to a degree, but it never feels personal for the heroes. I don't feel that sense of catharsis when the bad guys are defeated. There are no great fights to speak of in that movie either.

Pretty much every DBZ movie is formulaic. From The Ultimate DBZ Info Site:

The Six Steps
1.Gokou meets incredibly powerful enemy they can't possibly beat because he/she has, "Incredibly overwhelming power"
2. Gokou powers up but gets the living crap kicked out of him
3. Gokou gets joined by friend/s and start to kick butt
4. Main villian finds power inside him/her that is now forty times better than Gokou and his friends' power and they get more crap kicked out of them
5. Gokou and everyone get more crap kicked out of them and things look bad
6. Gokou has everyone give him their energy and/or he finds an incredible power inside of him that wasn't there a hour ago

It was cool seeing three cyborgs fight against the (at that time) three Super Saiyans. The whack to Goku's nards is pretty memorable as well.

My top 5 (not in order)
DB Movie 3
DBZ Movie 1, 3, 14, 6
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Re: Toei poll "Favorite Dragon Ball Movie of All Time"

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:16 pm

ABED wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:
ABED wrote:I'd have to see the line in context, but while maybe the way they got from A to B was inelegant, it overall fits the point of the film. It doesn't feel like world building that's beside the point. The film was introducing the audience and the characters to a whole bunch of new concepts.

I still don't understand what your issue is with the setting being around a birthday party. You say that's not cinematic, but the story has several different locations including Kaio and Beerus' worlds, and the final fight takes Beerus and Goku over the globe and into the stratosphere. It's hardly as mundane as you're making it out to be. And while it was a birthday party, it's a party at Capsule Corp in a city, so there's scope. And while Goku does arrive, he doesn't defeat Beerus. He's successful in stopping him from destroying Earth, but he doesn't defeat him. It's a refreshing change of pace.

I like Movie 7, not sure why people have a problem with it.

And while the first three DB movies and the 10th anniversary special adapt arcs, I think the first three do it in an interesting way, the first and third especially. I'd take them any day over Lord Slug, Bio-Broly, Bojack Unbound, and even a good chunk of Movie 8.
I didn’t say I took issue with setting the movie around a birthday party, or at the very least, that wasn’t what I intended to say. I don’t know why I need to keep mentioning this, but I enjoyed BoG very much, and I definitely consider it to be one of the best Dragon Ball movies to date. I don’t consider the birthday party setting to be a con with the film, but I personally prefer the story that the 13th DBZ movie gave us because I feel that it had more meat to it. Still, BoG is far from being a formulaic movie, and I definitely agree that Goku not being able to defeat the antagonist was a nice touch.

As for why people have a problem with movie 7, I think MistareFusion/Gaffer Tape summed it up pretty well. Basically, the movie was painfully formulaic, and didn’t do anything remotely new or interesting, outside of maybe the bit where Goku absorbed the Genki Dama, and even then, there were already three movies before that where the Genki Dama was used to defeat the villain. I wouldn’t consider it to be as bad as Ressurection ‘F’, since it was mercifully short, and at least had a conflict that Goku actually took seriously, but it was pretty forgettable, even by the standards of the DBZ movies.
My issue with movie 13 is the antagonist. He's a giant monster. While he's cool looking, I was never that interested in Hirudegarn or the guy trying to release it. The beef was between that guy (I forget the imp's name) and Tapion and Trunks to a degree, but it never feels personal for the heroes. I don't feel that sense of catharsis when the bad guys are defeated. There are no great fights to speak of in that movie either.

Pretty much every DBZ movie is formulaic. From The Ultimate DBZ Info Site:

The Six Steps
1.Gokou meets incredibly powerful enemy they can't possibly beat because he/she has, "Incredibly overwhelming power"
2. Gokou powers up but gets the living crap kicked out of him
3. Gokou gets joined by friend/s and start to kick butt
4. Main villian finds power inside him/her that is now forty times better than Gokou and his friends' power and they get more crap kicked out of them
5. Gokou and everyone get more crap kicked out of them and things look bad
6. Gokou has everyone give him their energy and/or he finds an incredible power inside of him that wasn't there a hour ago

It was cool seeing three cyborgs fight against the (at that time) three Super Saiyans. The whack to Goku's nards is pretty memorable as well.

My top 5 (not in order)
DB Movie 3
DBZ Movie 1, 3, 14, 6
The villains of movie 13 certainly weren’t its strongest point, but I think Tapion as a character more than made up for it. Besides, while it wasn’t exactly a complex villain, Hirudegarn was at least a change of pace from the usual Dragon Ball antagonist.

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Re: Toei poll "Favorite Dragon Ball Movie of All Time"

Post by ABED » Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:30 pm

I understand the notion of a change of pace sometimes being welcome, but in this case, a barely sentient rampaging giant monster isn't one, at least it isn't to me.
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Re: Toei poll "Favorite Dragon Ball Movie of All Time"

Post by ulisa » Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:28 am

I’ve always had a soft spot for DBZ Movies 1-3 and 5. I like some of the latter movies as well, including Movie 9, 12 and 13 but the early ones have always been my favorites.

Movie 1 has some of the best fight scenes and I love that it’s more martial arts based as opposed to ki blast vs ki blast. It’s a neat AU start to the series (if you want to view it as such) and oddly enough while Pilaf and Garlic Junior are utterly designed to be mirrors of each other, I find I enjoy Garlic Junior a tad more. The fact he actually managed to be given immortality is a nice perk.

Movie 2 is just fun. Again, there’s some great fights, the secondary characters actually play a role (it’s nice to see Roshi’s reputation brought up again) and I love seeing the characters play off each other in this one.

Movie 3 has some of my favorite scenes, mainly Goku attempting to fight against his son without hurting him. I like seeing Father Goku in this movie, brief though it is and the concept of an evil Goku is played pretty well.

Movie 5 is a bit of a guilty pleasure. I know it’s not the most original of ideas but I really like it. Given how much I find Freeza as just “meh” I don’t know why I like Cooler but I do. He seems more menacing to me.

I...really don’t like BOG or Resurrection F. I think the animation in BOG is stellar and there are some pretty funny moments but honestly? I don’t like Beerus. (One thing Super did well was have me warm up to him and Whis) I truly don’t know why I’m so turned off to him in this movie especially given I really come to like him in Super. Something about him just irritates me.

The DB movies never did much for me. I think that’s just because I prefer the characters introduced in DBZ more than anything. The movies themselves are fine but because I prefer the later time period, I don’t rewatch them a lot.
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