Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

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Lord Beerus
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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:51 pm

ABED wrote:Harm is a strong word. While I agree that the originals are still in tact, much like most original works still exist along with the adaptations or sequels, I still wish bad sequels and adaptations wouldn't get made.
I think "harm" is an appropriate word to use in this context. I mean, retcons in stories themselves are a double edged sword when it comes to their application in general storytelling. As a change in any given specific perspective can take away -- just as much as it may add -- to your personal enjoyment of the story.

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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by TheMikado » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:43 pm

I subscribe to the “Death of the Author” literary view.

Where a work should be viewed primarily as it was originally intended during its original time period. Paratext and sequels 20 years after the original work lack consistency and relevance this should not be considered a true nor equal work.

Example:

There are several “continuities” in DB.

The original Manga continuity which includes Dragonballs original manga run.

The DB TV continuation which include DB, DBZ, and GT animated runs and this slightly different interpretations.

The movies which tend to exist in their own continuities.

Modern DB is not made in the same time frame with the same “spirit” as the other runs and even though they share the same original author. It may as well be a completely different author rebooting the franchise at this point. Death of the author is a common trope that’s used both for Rowlings and Star Wars where the subsequent sequels or paratext, even from the original authors no longer carry the same “magic” as the original works because the author is a different person than when their original work was created.

Long story short, the “author(s)” who created the works you originally enjoyed is long gone.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MGn9x4-Y_7A

Spoiler: I’ve also stopped posted or participating in anything related to the new series including the manga. I’ve lost interest in the franchise due to the retcons and fear of ruining a perception or a romantic envisionment of what I loved about the original series is possibly permanently endangered by potential revisions. This rather than ruin the parts of the franchise I love, I’ve decided to completely ignore and stay away from most aspects of the modern franchise.

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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by ABED » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:48 pm

What does death of the author have to do with this? I thought it was a concept which argues that the author's background and intentions shouldn't matter when interpreting the story.

That said, I agree that the magic is gone. It's there in spurts, like BoG.
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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:54 pm

Some retcons I do enjoy a lot like Buu's new origin and #16 being the son of Dr. Gero. I like the idea of Buu being a creature that absorbs evil from other mortals since the dawn of time than being just another lab creation (He was like Cell, but made with magic instead). #16 being the son of Dr. Gero added some level of depth to Gero's character because it shows that he loves his family, but he still wants to kill Goku.
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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by Ssjcell » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:03 am

Luso Saiyan wrote:
Ssjcell wrote:So wait the scene with bardock vs frieza is different from the manga now...your right not a retcon I'm an idiot my bad SMH it's a fucking retcon get over it
You make false assumptions, and when proven wrong you not only ignore it all but decide double down on it?

How exactly was it different than the manga? Minus doesn't change anything (as you originally claimed) and Broly shows the two panels from the manga (and then some). Nothing was retconned. Unless you are going to double down some more and start grasping at straws by mentioned his costume.
Listen bro how am I making false assumptions and I haven't been proven wrong quite the opposite in fact. If the scene isn't bardock confronting frieza in space screaming his name and shooting a strong spirit bomb looking ki blast at him it's not Canon or for me personally .I'm not saying Dragonball or Akira suck I love Dragonball. And to someone who asked if I've seen the movie The answer is no, I live in Connecticut not Japan cut me a break on that but I know the scene is different and from how it's getting described there's no way the line about frieza having a skirmish with a Saiyan who looked like Goku makes no sense rendering it a retcon I'm sorry but your wrong about a few things as well you just don't know it

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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by Robo4900 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:11 am

ABED wrote:What does death of the author have to do with this? I thought it was a concept which argues that the author's background and intentions shouldn't matter when interpreting the story.

That said, I agree that the magic is gone. It's there in spurts, like BoG.
You are correct, and I agree.

The idea of death of the author is that the original authorial intent, including any Word Of God, is ultimately just one person's take, and unless something is explicitly in a work, it does not mean anything more than one person's interpretation. So, for instance, J.K. Rowling says Sirius Black was not gay. There is nothing in the books or movies to suggest at his sexuality either way, so if you think that character is gay, that is an entirely acceptable interpretation to have, because -- despite Rowling having written the books -- unless it's on the page, it's not gospal. Even the tiniest leaps of logic such as whether or not the Ninth Doctor looking at himself in the mirror in his first episode was the first time he'd seen his own face is entirely up to the individual to theorise about; Russel T Davies said it wasn't, but many still believe it was. There's nothing in the story -- or any other stories, expanded universe or otherwise, to my knowledge -- that clarifies this one way or the other, so despite the author favouring one take, both are entirely valid.

I'm not sure the idea of keeping in mind the intended time period of a work has a specific name as a concept, but it is a valid and useful idea in media criticism.

As for "The magic"... Dragon Ball was running out of steam at the end of Z. GT made an admirable attempt at reinvigorating things by shaking things up, and doing pretty much a completely new take on the style and status quo of things, but ultimately came its conclusion not a moment too soon -- in fact, even though GT is decently well-liked in Japan by those who've seen it, during the original run everyone had already checked out in the Boo arc, and had no interest; they'd rather it not only had run shorter, but not run at all -- and in my opinion, while "The magic came back" for BOG, this was a one-off. Toei's done the occasional good episode of Super like the baseball episode(And there was the 2008 OVA), but at most, it's simply a well-written throwback to a far superior work; not entirely devoid of value in and of itself, but ultimately shallow.
Dragon Ball is a goofy kids cartoon from a long time ago. You take it too seriously at your own peril.
Debate the plot, characters, adaptations, dubs, etc., criticise the home video, but never lose sight of the fact that it's all just entertainment. You're supposed to enjoy it. If you're not enjoying it, just walk away.

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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by PFM18 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:26 am

Gligarman wrote:The thing is, a lot of the content that's being retconed so to speak was technically never canon to begin with. The Toei writing staff created a lot of original material but ultimately what Toriyama put in the manga is what's canon. He's fully aware that he's prone to inconsistencies but after a decade and a half of drawing weekly manga at the mercy of his editors, I think he's earned all of the creative freedom he wants.
This. Most of these "retcons" didnt even exist in the main continuity to begin with.

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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by ABED » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:23 am

Hellspawn28 wrote:Some retcons I do enjoy a lot like Buu's new origin and #16 being the son of Dr. Gero. I like the idea of Buu being a creature that absorbs evil from other mortals since the dawn of time than being just another lab creation (He was like Cell, but made with magic instead). #16 being the son of Dr. Gero added some level of depth to Gero's character because it shows that he loves his family, but he still wants to kill Goku.
Where in DB was it ever established 16 was made in the image of Dr. Gero's son? Making 16 designed in the image of his son isn't depth. It's hacky.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by Neo-Makaiōshin » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:14 am

ABED wrote: Where in DB was it ever established 16 was made in the image of Dr. Gero's son? Making 16 designed in the image of his son isn't depth. It's hacky.
In one of many Toriyama's interviews post DB ending.
"The Time of Birth has Come, I Am The Remedy of Eternity.”
“The Time of Crowning has Come, I Am The Begining of Eternity."
"The Time of Parting has Come, I Am Who Lets Go of The World"

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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by Luso Saiyan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:35 am

Ssjcell wrote:Listen bro how am I making false assumptions and I haven't been proven wrong quite the opposite in fact.
Yes, you have, as made evident already on previous comments.
Ssjcell wrote:If the scene isn't bardock confronting frieza in space screaming his name and shooting a strong spirit bomb looking ki blast at him it's not Canon or for me personally .
What's "not canon for you personally" doesn't make it a retcon of the manga. In the manga, Bardock doesn't say a word at all. He doesn't even shoot anything. This is all the manga shows regarding Bardock:

Image Image

Dragon Ball Minus doesn't contradict anything of the above, as you originally implied. And the movie merely expands on it.

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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by Tavarano » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:52 am

ABED wrote:
Tavarano wrote:.
This is neither a superhero tale or a morality tale. This is a martial arts show in the pure sense. It's a skewed code of honor, but it is the ethics that permiates the show. They may not have our code of ethics, but they do have a code. I can't speak for Super. Just because we don't agree with the ethics of the characters doesn't make it bad writing. You are mistaking the two.

Piccolo wanted to fight in the tournament because he wants to fight Goku. When he was reincarnated, he became more of a warrior than his former pure demon self. Vegeta kills Nappa because he thinks he's worthless after losing. He doesn't care about immortality anymore because his overwhelming desire becomes surpassing Goku. And did you really complain that there aren't any interplanetary market for goods in DB? There are so many fundamental misunderstandings you have about what DB is at its core.

If you have this many fundamental problems, why do you watch? What are you getting from it?
The misunderstanding is on your side, Dragon Ball at its core is not a typical martial arts story, Toriyama never wrote it by such convention, it's a story about a teenage girl getting sexually abused with everyone having fun with it, and only then some more fighting got added as a way of increasing sales, with Toriyama borrowing depictions from Chinese entertainment he has consumed. Characters in martial arts stories may have skewed ethics, but they do have them, they are realistic and believeable, their relationships, drama and romance are focal points of such stories, DB characters on the other hand are detached from reality, take everything as a joke, do not have any sense of morals and often no common sense either.

To understand why DB is written the way it is, it takes understanding of Toriyama as a writer, through his interviews and his other stories, take for example Dr Slump or Lady Red, they all share the common core with Dragon Ball, they are meant to "poison" (Toriyama likes using this word, doesn't he?) the audience. In Toriyama's stories serious matters and actions are taken lightly and everything slides with nobody ever being accountable - In Dr Slump, Arale releases a bear imprisoned from childhood, trains him to regain his shape, releases him into the wild, he couldn't be happier, and then he gets shot by a poacher right away, in Lady Red, a woman wants to become a heroine, gets raped twice, shrugs it off and becomes a prostitute, in DB, Son Goku is "best buddies" with a genocider that murdered his parents - this utter lack of sense of morality, payoffs and themes is what Toriyama purposefully wants to achieve. It's not an accident that in DB Yamcha was turned into a cheater, the final message was that the new generation is a failure and Vegeta having someone to protect is weaker than Goku who's #1 because he fights only to improve himself, or that in DBS all characters have to live in fear being stockholm syndromed by Beerus unable to do anything about it - this is all Toriyama's style in a nutshell. The main problem with it that I have is what I mentioned before - the characters aren't believeable, no wife would be happy to meet her husband who abandoned her for 7 years making her raise 2 kids alone in any other story than Toriyama's, it's a DB specific problem too since all of his other stories don't have any continuous narrative, they are just short gags.

Currently I do not watch DB, the thing I like about it the most is the atmosphere of DB and DBZ, Kikuchi, Kageyama, great VA cast, fantastic sound design with Toriyama's art made it a hell of a show, despite all the flaws.
Akira Toriyama wrote:As a rule, there is no such thing as a theme in my work.

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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:30 am

Robo4900 wrote:The idea of death of the author is that the original authorial intent, including any Word Of God, is ultimately just one person's take, and unless something is explicitly in a work, it does not mean anything more than one person's interpretation.
To add to that, subscribing to “Death of the Author” is entirely subjective. It’s a well received theory among literature criticism, but it hardly sees light when confronted by laws and ownership decisions these days.

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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by ABED » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:31 am

it's a story about a teenage girl getting sexually abused with everyone having fun with it
What the hell? This statement among many others leads me to believe you really have no fundamental understanding about Dragon Ball. He never said he likes to poison his audience.

Your gigantic rants go on and on and your only justification for enjoying it is the music and atmosphere, but the stories apparently have no payoffs, people don't react realistically, and you don't like the themes. So basically you dislike it except for a few minor things and want to join a fan forum dedicated to discussing this series. Why? What are you getting from this? I don't mean to derail this thread but it bugs me since every once in a while we get someone on this forum that hates the series and does nothing but knock it in every single one of their posts. Constructive criticism is welcome, but bashing it is a whole other issue.
In one of many Toriyama's interviews post DB ending.
It's not in the story, so you can easily dismiss it.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by Robo4900 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:19 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Robo4900 wrote:The idea of death of the author is that the original authorial intent, including any Word Of God, is ultimately just one person's take, and unless something is explicitly in a work, it does not mean anything more than one person's interpretation.
To add to that, subscribing to “Death of the Author” is entirely subjective. It’s a well received theory among literature criticism, but it hardly sees light when confronted by laws and ownership decisions these days.
Law and ownership decisions have nothing to do with it. It's entirely a media analysis and criticism idea; applying it outside that to... Law and ownership?... I don't see how that even vaguely works; it'd be like trying to apply the principles of washing dishes to building a car. They're not even vaguely related. :lol:

See ABED's post above mine -- what he says in regards to Toriyama giving a post-DB interview, that's death of the author in action. It's an idea in criticism and analysis, that's all.
Dragon Ball is a goofy kids cartoon from a long time ago. You take it too seriously at your own peril.
Debate the plot, characters, adaptations, dubs, etc., criticise the home video, but never lose sight of the fact that it's all just entertainment. You're supposed to enjoy it. If you're not enjoying it, just walk away.

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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:37 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:
Robo4900 wrote:The idea of death of the author is that the original authorial intent, including any Word Of God, is ultimately just one person's take, and unless something is explicitly in a work, it does not mean anything more than one person's interpretation.
To add to that, subscribing to “Death of the Author” is entirely subjective. It’s a well received theory among literature criticism, but it hardly sees light when confronted by laws and ownership decisions these days.
Law and ownership decisions have nothing to do with it. It's entirely a media analysis and criticism idea; applying it outside that to... Law and ownership?... I don't see how that even vaguely works; it'd be like trying to apply the principles of washing dishes to building a car. They're not even vaguely related. :lol:

See ABED's post above mine -- what he says in regards to Toriyama giving a post-DB interview, that's death of the author in action. It's an idea in criticism and analysis, that's all.
I’m not sure if you understood what I said, but since “death of the author” is a theory, people are not obligated to dismiss what is not in the original work. The owners decide whatever they want about their products, including expanding-lore-stuff, and they have the law to back them up.

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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by Robo4900 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:48 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Robo4900 wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote: To add to that, subscribing to “Death of the Author” is entirely subjective. It’s a well received theory among literature criticism, but it hardly sees light when confronted by laws and ownership decisions these days.
Law and ownership decisions have nothing to do with it. It's entirely a media analysis and criticism idea; applying it outside that to... Law and ownership?... I don't see how that even vaguely works; it'd be like trying to apply the principles of washing dishes to building a car. They're not even vaguely related. :lol:

See ABED's post above mine -- what he says in regards to Toriyama giving a post-DB interview, that's death of the author in action. It's an idea in criticism and analysis, that's all.
I’m not sure if you understood what I said, but since “death of the author” is a theory, people are not obligated to dismiss what is not in the original work. The owners decide whatever they want about their products, including expanding-lore-stuff, and they have the law to back them up.
It's nothing to do with the law. It 100% only applies to media criticism. I guess if someone else is writing a work in a universe previously written by another writer, it applies, but again, the law doesn't enter into it there, either.
Dragon Ball is a goofy kids cartoon from a long time ago. You take it too seriously at your own peril.
Debate the plot, characters, adaptations, dubs, etc., criticise the home video, but never lose sight of the fact that it's all just entertainment. You're supposed to enjoy it. If you're not enjoying it, just walk away.

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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:25 pm

DUH. Hugo Boss. It goes without saying. Who owns the work isnt at question here. Its the author. Nobody would confuse the two. This is about PERSONAL INTERPRETATION.
AnimeMaakuo wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:38 am
Enjoy unboxing crap :thumbup:. Your continued support for crap will give us more crap for many years to come! :clap:.
90sDBZ wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm
19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:38 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:
Robo4900 wrote: Law and ownership decisions have nothing to do with it. It's entirely a media analysis and criticism idea; applying it outside that to... Law and ownership?... I don't see how that even vaguely works; it'd be like trying to apply the principles of washing dishes to building a car. They're not even vaguely related. :lol:

See ABED's post above mine -- what he says in regards to Toriyama giving a post-DB interview, that's death of the author in action. It's an idea in criticism and analysis, that's all.
I’m not sure if you understood what I said, but since “death of the author” is a theory, people are not obligated to dismiss what is not in the original work. The owners decide whatever they want about their products, including expanding-lore-stuff, and they have the law to back them up.
It's nothing to do with the law. It 100% only applies to media criticism. I guess if someone else is writing a work in a universe previously written by another writer, it applies, but again, the law doesn't enter into it there, either.
I don't know in which country you lives, but in Brazil we have a copyright law (9610/98) that includes in one of its articles the moral right of "modifying the work, before or after use". It also establishes moral rights can't be waived or transmited. This concretizes what Foucault told some decades ago about mechanism of power associated with the exercise of the author-function.
Cure Dragon 255 wrote:DUH. Hugo Boss. It goes without saying. Who owns the work isnt at question here. Its the author. Nobody would confuse the two. This is about PERSONAL INTERPRETATION.
Author and work don't need to be viewed as two different things, but rather part of the same process, since one can't exist without the other.

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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by ABED » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:42 pm

But the work isn't an appendage. You can separate the work from the author. While it's certainly interesting to hear/read storytellers expand on their story, if it's not in the text or even alluded to in some way, it can easily be dismissed if you so choose.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:44 pm

Then to that I say this is all ABOUT PERSONAL INTERPRETATION. Anyone can infer and grasp any meaning or interpretation and no law can force us to see things differently. Sure, the actual things that happen on the show OR Manga is up to Toriyama in this case. And sure those pathetic people that cry about their headcanons not being respected can go take a hike. But this is about PERSONAL INTERPRETATION.There are no laws forbidding imagination arent there?
AnimeMaakuo wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:38 am
Enjoy unboxing crap :thumbup:. Your continued support for crap will give us more crap for many years to come! :clap:.
90sDBZ wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm
19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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