DBZ is still DB

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

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Re: DBZ is still DB

Post by Captain Strawberry » Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:29 pm

Zephyr wrote:
Captain Strawberry wrote:I don't know. I don't usually like aliens in my fantasy stories (even though DB already starts out mixed with ancient Chinese and futuristic). I suppose it makes the "Earth" for me less "magical" and smaller. Which is somewhat true when Z came out, Earth's world building became less of a focus but I guess it's only natural as a write to go beyond Earth when the characters become so fast and fast. It was less of a focus of "fantasy" and more so of "sci-fi" which is kind of the opposite in how you are introduced to the show.
That's the thing, though. Earth is no less magical, it just turns out that the universe is also pretty magical. Ki blasts and bukujutsu are still fantasy martial arts techniques. Goku still travels through and trains in a mystical afterlife. The Namek arc is squarely predicated on going to get magical wish granting orbs, to revive others who travel through and train in the same mystical afterlife. Even the Cell arc has the four main characters train in a magical room that transports them to a dimension where time flows differently, so they can more effectively engage in martial arts in their Super Saiyan states, so they can participate in a martial arts tournament held my a creature formed by combining the DNA of the universe's greatest martial artists.
MyVisionity wrote: Yeah, DBZ totally switches to Sci-fi.
Yh, I honestly preferred the world before the major shift happened. It's just not the same to me. Of course, DBZ is still DB, it's still the same franchise and the manga doesn't change its name. But for me, the story of Dragon Ball ends with Goku defeating Demon King Piccolo. DBZ is like a big what if scenario to me. DBZ is too sci-fi me when I compare it to how things were before Raditz.
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Re: DBZ is still DB

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:40 pm

I don’t know if I buy “DBZ totally switches to Sci-fi” narrative. Obviously the Sci-fi is much stronger pronounced, particularly in the Android/Cell saga, untim the Buu saga but even stuff like Goku dying and going to Otherworld to be trained by a God seems pretty rooted in the fantastisal elements Dragon Ball is known for. If we’re also taking into consideration anime only material the Garlic Jr saga is pretty rooted on the fantasy side instead of the Sci fi side.

It’s more straight forward to call Dragon Ball a martial arts series with early Dragon Ball staying harder on the fantasy side and DBZ swerving harder on the Sci-fi side but not completely abandoning its fantasy roots and pretty much making a full return to the fantasy genre by Buu.

It’s not a black and white Dragon Ball=Fantasy DBZ= Sci-fi is all I’m saying
Last edited by MasenkoHA on Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: DBZ is still DB

Post by Captain Strawberry » Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:40 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:It's always boggled my mind how people divide the series and treat everything prior to Raditz arriving as completely different story. It's not. I made this point in another thread I stand by it:

Are there shifts in the tone of the story and time skips in the narrative? Yes. But they occur across the story and don't abritatrily happen in grand significance when the Saiyan arc kicks into high gear. Dragon Ball is one story, despite how the anime may want to create some differentiation by throwing in a "Z" at the end of the anime that covers the Saiyan arc and beyond portions of the manga
I do think there is a change in how Toriyama tells the story.

There was much more adventure and thought, Goku didn't have to rely on transformations especially that is simply because like Saiyans can transform golden haired... just because they can while also having a giant ape transformation. They seem to have weird DNA mixture.

Besides the point, Goku kind of had to earn his power in my opinion, plot devices that were kind of cooler than simply powering up.

I think DB had much more of a adventure charm to it than DBZ.
MasenkoHA wrote:I don’t know if I buy “DBZ totally switches to Sci-fi” narrative. Obviously the Sci-fi is much stronger pronounced, particularly in the Android/Cell saga, untim the Buu saga but even stuff like Goku dying and going to Otherworld to be trained by a God seems pretty rooted in the fantastisal elements Dragon Ball is known for. If we’re also taking into consideration anime only material the Garlic Jr saga is pretty rooted on the fantasy side instead of the Sci fi side.

It’s more straight forward to call Dragon Ball a martial arts series with early Dragon Ball staying harder on the fantasy side and DBZ swerving harder on the Sci-fi side but not completely abandoning its fantasy roots and pretty much making a full return to the fantasy genre by Buu.

It’s not a black and white Dragon Ball=Fantasy DBZ= Sci-fi is all I’m saying
There does seem to be a mixture. I am glad they had Buu as a villain because it kind of had DBZ go back to its roots. DBZ is like a star wars mixed with fantasy. Although I really can't appreciate the power scaling.
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Re: DBZ is still DB

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:49 pm

Captain Strawberry wrote:.

There was much more adventure and thought, Goku didn't have to rely on transformations especially that is simply because like Saiyans can transform golden haired... just because they can while also having a giant ape transformation. They seem to have weird DNA mixture.
Toriyama didn’t heavily rely on transformations until the end of the Namek saga or a third of a way into DBZ. It’s not like as soon as Raditz appeared the story made a total shift to relying on transformations. It just ended up that way and got out of control by Buu.


Besides the point, Goku kind of had to earn his power in my opinion, plot devices that were kind of cooler than simply powering up.
He had to earn his power in DBZ too Toriyama just seemed to have gotten lazier about it after Kaiou.

Even Dragon Ball has Goku drinking sacred water for a power boost to beat Piccolo Daimou. That really started there.


Honestly if Funimation hadn’t skipped to Z and people warched from the beginning I think fans would notice a lot of things they think started with Z was being established and built on from Dragon Ball.

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Re: DBZ is still DB

Post by MyVisionity » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:01 pm

Zephyr wrote:The focus has always been on martial artists doing fantasy martial arts against other martial artists. Sometimes there are more and different sci-fi things going on in the background, or as window dressing, or as a vehicle to deliver more fantasy martial arts, but it's never not fully enveloped in fantasy. Every ki blast, every flaring aura, and just about every instance of flight, are 100% pure fantasy 100% of the time.
That's only part of the genre though. Once the Saiyajin arc begins, the shift into Science Fiction begins with it. Yes, the martial arts aspect is still central to the series, but the plots are now mostly Sci-Fi genre. This was not the case before the Z-era, where the story was mostly martial arts/fantasy/horror/etc. genres.

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Re: DBZ is still DB

Post by ABED » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:46 pm

MyVisionity wrote:
Zephyr wrote:The focus has always been on martial artists doing fantasy martial arts against other martial artists. Sometimes there are more and different sci-fi things going on in the background, or as window dressing, or as a vehicle to deliver more fantasy martial arts, but it's never not fully enveloped in fantasy. Every ki blast, every flaring aura, and just about every instance of flight, are 100% pure fantasy 100% of the time.
That's only part of the genre though. Once the Saiyajin arc begins, the shift into Science Fiction begins with it. Yes, the martial arts aspect is still central to the series, but the plots are now mostly Sci-Fi genre. This was not the case before the Z-era, where the story was mostly martial arts/fantasy/horror/etc. genres.
How? They don't focus on the "science" in the sci-fi beyond location for battles and locations for villains to come from. The stories are all about martial arts and aliens are no less martial artists than Earth bound fighters.
DBZ is like a star wars mixed with fantasy.
It should be noted that Star Wars isn't sci-fi, it's a space opera. It's more of a fantasy than hard science fiction. Science fiction is a genre that's speculative in nature. It's concerned with asking questions. For instance, Person of Interest asks what would happen if the government had an artificial intelligence that could spy on its citizens every hour of every day. What questions does Dragon Ball deal with?
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Re: DBZ is still DB

Post by MyVisionity » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:02 pm

ABED wrote:How? They don't focus on the "science" in the sci-fi beyond location for battles and locations for villains to come from. The stories are all about martial arts and aliens are no less martial artists than Earth bound fighters.
It's sci-fi because the plot revolves around the main character being revealed as an alien, and he has to fight other aliens and travel to another planet in outer space. Then the cast has to fight cyborgs and deal with time travel. That's undeniably Sci-Fi. The stories are not all about the martial arts just because the martial arts is a consistent part of the story. The martial arts genre is only one part of it.

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Re: DBZ is still DB

Post by ABED » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:13 pm

MyVisionity wrote:
ABED wrote:How? They don't focus on the "science" in the sci-fi beyond location for battles and locations for villains to come from. The stories are all about martial arts and aliens are no less martial artists than Earth bound fighters.
It's sci-fi because the plot revolves around the main character being revealed as an alien, and he has to fight other aliens and travel to another planet in outer space. Then the cast has to fight cyborgs and deal with time travel. That's undeniably Sci-Fi. The stories are not all about the martial arts just because the martial arts is a consistent part of the story. The martial arts genre is only one part of it.
He's an alien, so? They are about martial arts. The aliens and space travel is window dressing. It's fundamentally about martial arts. That IS the story. It's about the characters and their progression as martial artists. Even if it's just one part, it's the main part. The cyborgs are a small part of that arc. It ultimately is about fighting a being who is made up of the strongest fighters in the universe (that they know of at that point). Hell, it ends up in a tournament of sorts. Even if martial arts is just one part, why are you placing so much emphasis on the science fiction aspect? Why are aliens SO much more fundamental to DBZ's identity than martial arts?
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Re: DBZ is still DB

Post by Shaddy » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:22 pm

I guess Metallitron and #8 are just some of those non sci-fi humanoid robots.
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Re: DBZ is still DB

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:53 pm

Shaddy wrote:I guess Metallitron and #8 are just some of those non sci-fi humanoid robots.
This though. The sci-fi elements were in Dragon Ball

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Re: DBZ is still DB

Post by MyVisionity » Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:07 pm

ABED wrote:
MyVisionity wrote:It's sci-fi because the plot revolves around the main character being revealed as an alien, and he has to fight other aliens and travel to another planet in outer space. Then the cast has to fight cyborgs and deal with time travel. That's undeniably Sci-Fi. The stories are not all about the martial arts just because the martial arts is a consistent part of the story. The martial arts genre is only one part of it.
He's an alien, so? They are about martial arts. The aliens and space travel is window dressing. It's fundamentally about martial arts. That IS the story. It's about the characters and their progression as martial artists. Even if it's just one part, it's the main part. The cyborgs are a small part of that arc. It ultimately is about fighting a being who is made up of the strongest fighters in the universe (that they know of at that point). Hell, it ends up in a tournament of sorts. Even if martial arts is just one part, why are you placing so much emphasis on the science fiction aspect? Why are aliens SO much more fundamental to DBZ's identity than martial arts?
I'm only saying that DBZ is where the science fiction genre comes into play. Prior to that, it was martial arts/horror, or martial arts/crime, or martial arts/adventure. Only with Raditz does it enter martial arts/sci-fi territory. And it's the cyborgs/Cell that are driving that whole saga, my point being that the sci-fi genre is always clear and present within the story. It's not about which one is more fundamental.
MasenkoHA wrote:
Shaddy wrote:I guess Metallitron and #8 are just some of those non sci-fi humanoid robots.
This though. The sci-fi elements were in Dragon Ball
But only elements. The Red Ribbon saga is not a science fiction story. Yes there were elements of sci-fi mixed in prior to Raditz, but it was not a part of the larger genre or plot.

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Re: DBZ is still DB

Post by ABED » Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:21 pm

But only elements. The Red Ribbon saga is not a science fiction story. Yes there were elements of sci-fi mixed in prior to Raditz, but it was not a part of the larger genre or plot.
And neither is the Saiyan arc. The enemy comes from space. That's it. The conflict is still steeped in martial arts fantasy. At best, DBZ uses more sci-fi elements, but it's not a science fiction story. Cell may have been the result of a science experiment, but he's little more than a malevolent martial artist. The Freeza arc takes place on another planet, but it's not a sci-fi story. It's another hunt/quest for the dragon balls (mystical items) and a martial arts battle against a dictator who uses martial arts. A fantasy that has science fiction but isn't actually about the science is still a fantasy.
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Re: DBZ is still DB

Post by Kid Buu » Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:02 am

ruler9871 wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:It's always boggled my mind how people divide the series and treat everything prior to Raditz arriving as completely different story.
It's just an Anglophone fan thing. Most of the world sees and treats Early DB and Z as one long story.
Hmm, is that really the case? Would be odd because it's not like the Anglo World is the one that separated the TV shows.
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Re: DBZ is still DB

Post by Captain Strawberry » Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:27 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Captain Strawberry wrote:.

There was much more adventure and thought, Goku didn't have to rely on transformations especially that is simply because like Saiyans can transform golden haired... just because they can while also having a giant ape transformation. They seem to have weird DNA mixture.
Toriyama didn’t heavily rely on transformations until the end of the Namek saga or a third of a way into DBZ. It’s not like as soon as Raditz appeared the story made a total shift to relying on transformations. It just ended up that way and got out of control by Buu.
Looking at Z as a whole, it did bring a big trend (of transformations) that carried even till Super. The writing (although throughout different arcs expressed different themes like Z) was more consistent, the power scaling was consistent to me and I felt like the world was more alive which I am not going to go in detail but saying that, I did feel like the story telling did flow a lot more.

DBZ Is still DB but for me personally, the story ends Goku defeating Demon King Piccolo.
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Re: DBZ is still DB

Post by ABED » Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:44 pm

When you say the story ends with him killing Demon King Piccolo, are we including the 23rd TB? Because DB feels incomplete without him winning the tournament.
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Re: DBZ is still DB

Post by Doctor. » Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:50 pm

I agree that the Saiyan arc is just a natural evolution of what the series had become and it's not tonally disconnected from the arc that came before it, but as arbitrary and random the split of the anime was, they really nailed it on the head if a split was truly necessary. Goku's main objective in part 1 ended when he won the tournament. The Saiyan arc expands the scope of the series from Earth to the entire universe, puts more of a spotlight on Gohan's journey rather than Goku's and reveals a new side to Goku's story that was, at best, only hinted at in part 1 (maybe accidentally, maybe intentionally on Toriyama's part).

Obviously, the series is meant to be followed from the start, but the Saiyan arc kind of feels like a 'soft reboot' of sorts now that Goku had finally won the tournament he had failed to win two times before and was the strongest person on the planet. While Z is essentially still Goku's story, and Goku is the main character, it's not as much about how his journey and how he grows as a person as much as it is about Gohan's.

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Re: DBZ is still DB

Post by Bebi Hatchiyack » Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:52 pm

Dragon Ball can be mirrored to a man/woman who grow up.

All is joyful to a certain point where you realize that death exist (Kuririn first death) then as you grew up you end up encounter turmoil trial and hardship (Piccolo / Frieza / Cell ) and as you become old you can start goofying more and more like you were in your childhood (Majin Buu arc and Dragon Ball Super)

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Re: DBZ is still DB

Post by MyVisionity » Sat Jan 26, 2019 8:54 pm

Obviously, the series is meant to be followed from the start, but the Saiyan arc kind of feels like a 'soft reboot' of sorts now that Goku had finally won the tournament he had failed to win two times before and was the strongest person on the planet. While Z is essentially still Goku's story, and Goku is the main character, it's not as much about how his journey and how he grows as a person as much as it is about Gohan's.
This is a good way to describe it. It's almost like a long running television drama or sitcom where after so many seasons the main character leaves the show or stays on while another character becomes the center focus of the story.

Yeah, it's still the same show, but a new beginning and era.

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Re: DBZ is still DB

Post by ABED » Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:03 pm

MyVisionity wrote:
Obviously, the series is meant to be followed from the start, but the Saiyan arc kind of feels like a 'soft reboot' of sorts now that Goku had finally won the tournament he had failed to win two times before and was the strongest person on the planet. While Z is essentially still Goku's story, and Goku is the main character, it's not as much about how his journey and how he grows as a person as much as it is about Gohan's.
This is a good way to describe it. It's almost like a long running television drama or sitcom where after so many seasons the main character leaves the show or stays on while another character becomes the center focus of the story.

Yeah, it's still the same show, but a new beginning and era.
It's less like a new character taking over the show (largely because it rarely if ever works out for the better) and more like a long running story arc concluding and a new one beginning. It's less like The X-Files when Mulder left and more like Person of Interest when they brought down HR (an organization of corrupt cops), or Buffy after the Scoobies graduated high school.

DBZ is still not about Gohan's growth any more than it is about Vegeta's. Gohan isn't the main character and isn't really until late in the Cell arc and as we all know, by the end the focus went back to Goku.

I do think if you were to separate the series, Goku winning the 23rd tournament makes the most sense. All the story threads had been tied up. However, that doesn't make it a separate and distinct series.
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Re: DBZ is still DB

Post by KBABZ » Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:50 pm

ABED wrote:I do think if you were to separate the series, Goku winning the 23rd tournament makes the most sense. All the story threads had been tied up. However, that doesn't make it a separate and distinct series.
It's more akin to going from Sailor Moon to Sailor Moon R, as opposed to going from DBZ to DBS.

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