Should King Piccolo be recognized as one of classic Dragon Ball’s main villains alongside Freeza, Cell, and Majin Boo?

[Michsi]

There is actually a old game out there that has this "what if" scenario. They are seen and treated as separate characters most of the time so it's not outside the realm of possibility. Kami does say before fusing with Piccolo "you and me, or more specifically, your father and me." so if they do make that distinction then you could see him as a final piece for a complete "Piccolo"

Piccolo is portrayed as both. It's a holy trinity type situation. Piccolo is simultaneously father AND son.

The reincarnation thing is a versatile theme, especially in Japanese media, but more often than not a series that contains this trope makes a whole narrative thing of how the reincarnated person is NOT one and the same with the old one (Inuyasha, Sailor Moon, etc.). Since we see the Demon King retain his consciousness and identity and call Jr "son", and then the first thing Jr. says is "father, I will avenge you," my belief is that the father/son aspect takes precedence over the reincarnation aspect.

Either way, this hypothetical scenario of Piccolo Jr. fusing with the original Piccolo is not far fetched at all since it's actually been done before.

[ABED]

Except that he oscilates. He says both.

Either way, this hypothetical scenario of Piccolo Jr. fusing with the original Piccolo is not far fetched at all since it's actually been done before.

It's ridiculously convoluted since Piccolo is a reincarnation. When Piccolo fused with Kami, he became whole. Also there was a moment in the tournament where it visualizes that Piccolo and Daimao are one in the same. It's also a more interesting dynamic than pure father and son.

[Marlowe89]

Why do people throw around TVTropes terms like it's common vernacular? Not trying to sound snarky, I'm legitimately curious.

As for the topic, hell to the yes. Villains in Dragon Ball don't need to be deeply layered or complex. What makes an unapologetically bad dude like King Piccolo so great is that he facilitates the plot and its character arcs in ways that a more redeemable antagonist probably couldn't. Even after his defeat, his reprehensible actions make his reincarnation's character development that much more satisfying.

He's almost up there with Freeza for me.

[Michsi]

Except that he oscilates. He says both.

I said that it takes precedence, not that it overrides or contradicts it, which means I do acknowledge the reincarnation aspect.

It's ridiculously convoluted since Piccolo is a reincarnation. When Piccolo fused with Kami, he became whole. Also there was a moment in the tournament where it visualizes that Piccolo and Daimao are one in the same.

I think I know what scene you are referring to, but it's anime exclusive and I don't see how that alone weighs more than the characters themselves making the distinction (manga as well.) And it's in no way more convoluted than, say, the whole timeline debacle with Trunks. As I said, most people, writers included, treat King Piccolo and Piccolo Jr. as different characters, so it's easy to make a scenario like that.

I think the people that have the hardest time making the distinction between King Piccolo and Piccolo Jr. are the ones that have seen Funimation's version of DB, where they have definitely gone with the "one and the same" route to the extreme, far more than the original ever did as far as I remember.

[ABED]

Again, they oscilate. Sometimes they say his dad, but more often than not, they just consider them the same being, because they are.

What I didn't bring up before in the same scene is Piccolo saying he's Daimao reincarnated, which isn't anime only.

As I said, most people, writers included, treat King Piccolo and Piccolo Jr. as different characters, so it's easy to make a scenario like that.

But they don't. It's contradictory of Toriyama's story to treat them as completely separate characters.

I think the people that have the hardest time making the distinction between King Piccolo and Piccolo Jr. are the ones that have seen Funimation's version of DB, where they have definitely gone with the "one and the same" route to the extreme, far more than the original ever did as far as I remember.

I think you are remembering wrong because if anything, it's dub fans that think they aren't one in the same.

[lancerman]

Forget for a second you know the backstory of how Toriyama came up with Cell, how does the arc not feel like it's leading towards something bigger than 19 and 20? Cell doesn't come out of nowhere. He feels planned. From the outset of the arc, things are constantly different than what Trunks knew. I'm absolutely convinced that the only people who think otherwise know the backstory. If 19 and 20 were the big bads, that would've been a VERY short arc.

Cell was exclusive to Earth in the arc, but it's abundantly clear that if he wasn't stopped then and there, he would go to other worlds.

I can't believe I'm having to defend Cell as he is far from my favorite, but it's for almost none of the reasons you guys have mentioned.

We've had this discussion before, but I've never felt this way. Cell always felt like a convoluted tacked on thing. We don't even get an inkling that the threat is anything more than the Androids until after we already have a swerve and reveal with 16/17/18 and the heroes have zero shot of beating them. Then Cell's entire mystery is completely given away the minute he comes on screen after some incredibly random build up (Kami bringing up a threat nobody mentioned, the attack in Ginger town which has no organic relation to the main plot).

Also we know for a fact that the arc wasn't leading towards anything bigger than 19 and 20 until Toriyama was forced to. So it's hard to say it feels like it's leading towards something when that wasn't even the authors intent at the time. So if you felt it was leading to something else, you were reading into something that actually wasn't there to read into. 17 and 18 weren't supposed to be part of the arc, then Toriyama was told to hurry up and get Cell a better form

[Marco Polo]

He's a classic Dragon Ball main villain but not a classic DBZ main villain.

[ABED]

Forget for a second you know the backstory of how Toriyama came up with Cell, how does the arc not feel like it's leading towards something bigger than 19 and 20? Cell doesn't come out of nowhere. He feels planned. From the outset of the arc, things are constantly different than what Trunks knew. I'm absolutely convinced that the only people who think otherwise know the backstory. If 19 and 20 were the big bads, that would've been a VERY short arc.

Cell was exclusive to Earth in the arc, but it's abundantly clear that if he wasn't stopped then and there, he would go to other worlds.

I can't believe I'm having to defend Cell as he is far from my favorite, but it's for almost none of the reasons you guys have mentioned.

We've had this discussion before, but I've never felt this way. Cell always felt like a convoluted tacked on thing. We don't even get an inkling that the threat is anything more than the Androids until after we already have a swerve and reveal with 16/17/18 and the heroes have zero shot of beating them. Then Cell's entire mystery is completely given away the minute he comes on screen after some incredibly random build up (Kami bringing up a threat nobody mentioned, the attack in Ginger town which has no organic relation to the main plot).

Also we know for a fact that the arc wasn't leading towards anything bigger than 19 and 20 until Toriyama was forced to. So it's hard to say it feels like it's leading towards something when that wasn't even the authors intent at the time. So if you felt it was leading to something else, you were reading into something that actually wasn't there to read into. 17 and 18 weren't supposed to be part of the arc, then Toriyama was told to hurry up and get Cell a better form

Please stop using saying random, it's anything but random. From the second Trunks arrives, there are a constant stream of questions that arise out of him going back in time. I can think of at least seven off the top of my head. If anyone actually thought 19 and 20 were actually going to be the big bads, it's like they never read a story before. Why would such bland designed characters THAT early in the story? That's not a build, it's a prelude to something more. That's why I don't believe you when you say it felt tacked on because why would anyone believe the story was leading to them? I understand if someone thought that only 19 and 20 were the swerve since there are plenty of good stories that lead the audience to believe person A is pulling the strings, but it's actually person B. And if all 17 and 18 had ultimately amounted to were more bad guys to fight before Cell arrived, then I'd be more inclined to believe you, but 17 and 18 being necessary for Cell to reach his ultimate power feels meant to be. From this and a few others I've seen from you, it feels like unless something is telegraphed, there's no set up.

And what does it prove that the mystery surrounding Cell was given away shortly after he was introduced?

Everyone here knows the history of Toriyama creating Cell, but it's irrelevant. Lots of stories aren't planned and it doesn't matter as long as it feels organically. It doesn't matter how a writer gets from point A to B as long as it feels organic. Do you really think 19 and 20 were going to be the big bads when you read the manga or saw the anime?

I like the build which is why I can't completely write off Cell. His early form and the mystery aspect is the most interesting part of the story.

Out of the big bads, I rank them:
Freeza
Vegeta
Piccolo Daimao - Even though I prefer the 23rd TB battle, the Daimao arc is one of my favorite arcs in all of DB.
Piccolo Jr.
Cell
Buu

[RandomGuy96]

If we’re talking about the original Dragon Ball manga, then Freeza, Cell, and Majin Boo aren’t the only major villains. King Piccolo was one too (Vegeta fights on the heroic side for most of the series, so he’s not really counted here).

He really doesn't. He comes into conflicts with other villains as much as the heroes, but he's still thoroughly villainous up until the end of the Majin Buu arc, and even when he stops being actively omnicidal he still attacks and turns on the heroes the second it is convenient to do so. I'd say he's more of a "main villain" than most. It's only by Super and GT that he's fully in the antihero role.

[WittyUsername]

Forget for a second you know the backstory of how Toriyama came up with Cell, how does the arc not feel like it's leading towards something bigger than 19 and 20? Cell doesn't come out of nowhere. He feels planned. From the outset of the arc, things are constantly different than what Trunks knew. I'm absolutely convinced that the only people who think otherwise know the backstory. If 19 and 20 were the big bads, that would've been a VERY short arc.

Cell was exclusive to Earth in the arc, but it's abundantly clear that if he wasn't stopped then and there, he would go to other worlds.

I can't believe I'm having to defend Cell as he is far from my favorite, but it's for almost none of the reasons you guys have mentioned.

No one knows how long the arc would’ve been if #19 and #20 were the villains.

[ABED]

How many stories can you think of where they confront the main villain at the very beginning?

[RandomGuy96]

How many stories can you think of where they confront the main villain at the very beginning?

I can't help but think that Toriyama's original idea might have been like the Zamasu arc, where the villainous duo was confronted early on, lost, and then just rapidly improved. The energy draining mechanic even offers a built-in reason right off the bat. Perhaps Gero would even use time travel as Cell did to team up with his alternate self.

[ABED]

How many stories can you think of where they confront the main villain at the very beginning?

I can't help but think that Toriyama's original idea might have been like the Zamasu arc, where the villainous duo was confronted early on, lost, and then just rapidly improved. The energy draining mechanic even offers a built-in reason right off the bat. Perhaps Gero would even use time travel as Cell did to team up with his alternate self.

Maybe, but plenty of stories subvert expectations by having someone pulling the strings other than who the audience is lead to believe. 24 did that a lot.

[KBABZ]

i could never understand Cell's big popularity which seems to exist mostly outside of Japan.

Same. The non-Perfect forms have Cell with a more interesting personality, but once he achieves his goal... I dunno, I just don't see where the threat is. He isn't exactly known for blowing up planets at random and he isn't a tyrant like Frieza is. I always felt that of all the villains, Cell is the one most likely to be talked out of whatever non-plan he has. How he got there is of course morally reprehensible (after all he did kill thousands of people, not just 17 and 18), but once he achieves perfection what he wants to do is... hold a tournament? Okay, where's the threat here again?

I like Cell as a whole, but I certainly feel as though he falls deep into Generic Doomsday Villain territory. On one hand, you could say the decision for him to hold a tournament as a way of displaying his superiority, while also emphasising the innate traits of Saiayn's pride inflating once he/she has achieved his goal and/or achieved a immense amount of power. I mean, Cell does have pure blooded Saiyan DNA in his composition. So it wouldn't surprise me if he pulled a Vegeta, and got drunk with power so much that it clouded his better judgement and just became so full of himself to point where he decided use a tournament as showcase for him to flex his muscles.

On the other hand, you could say that Toriyama realised he hit a narrative dead end with the Cell arc once Cell had achieved his goal and become perfect, and just thrown in a tournament to artificially extend the plot.

I would have taken Cell with more gravitas if his old lust for power was taken to extreme and threatening levels. For example, he has a perverse lust for using his power, moreso than a Saiyan, and if he has no-one left to fight he'll blow up the planet to show everyone what he's capable of. Something like that.

[ABED]

The way he murdered all those people in such a gruesome manner left WAY more of an impression than if he destroyed an entire planet. We know he can destroy a planet. It's not that special by that point. I don't know what you guys are looking for. His lust for power was taken to extreme levels. He was going to murder the entire planet had he lost, and he wasn't going to stop there.

[KBABZ]

The way he murdered all those people in such a gruesome manner left WAY more of an impression than if he destroyed an entire planet. We know he can destroy a planet. It's not that special by that point. I don't know what you guys are looking for. His lust for power was taken to extreme levels. He was going to murder the entire planet had he lost, and he wasn't going to stop there.

I pointed that out before. However with each form Cell becomes an ever-so-slightly different character. And the rather calm way he conducts himself in his Perfect Form doesn't lend me to believe at all that he is a direct threat to anybody. If he had a more obvious Frieza-like complex that compelled him to destroy anyone who was weaker than him then I may have seen him as more of a threat to the main characters. As it is though, of all the villains he feels the least maniacal in his Perfect Form and the one most able to be talked out of what he's doing (with the exception of Fat Buu where of course that actually happened).

Genuine question: where do you see the threat in Perfect Cell?

[ABED]

Your point makes NO sense to me. How is he not a threat? I find it baffling. He's stronger than anyone except Gohan and killing is easy for him as breathing. He murdered entire cities and never batted an eye. I bet Trunks believed he was a threat after getting killed. What do you think he would do if he won? I have zero idea how you don't believe he's a threat. What the hell else is he going to do if he won, lie down and take a nap? Nothing, not a damn thing, leads me to think he could be talked out of his goal(s). Buu was a different situation. As we find out, the reason Mr. Satan was able to get through to Buu in his fat form was because Buu had absorbed Dai Kaioshin which didn't just reduced his power, but made him less than pure evil. Cell was programmed by a machine to go after power and test it.

[KBABZ]

Your point makes NO sense to me. How is he not a threat? I find it baffling. He's stronger than anyone except Gohan and killing is easy for him as breathing. He murdered entire cities and never batted an eye. I bet Trunks believed he was a threat after getting killed. What do you think he would do if he won? I have zero idea how you don't believe he's a threat. What the hell else is he going to do if he won, lie down and take a nap? Nothing, not a damn thing, leads me to think he could be talked out of his goal(s).

I disagree because Cell did those horrible things to get more power. After he attains his Perfect Form, he isn't nearly as murderous as before. In the manga it's even worse because the army scene was anime filler.

[Michsi]

Again, they oscilate. Sometimes they say his dad, but more often than not, they just consider them the same being, because they are.

They say father/son far more often though. Again, King Piccolo calls him son right before he dies, the very first thing Piccolo Jr. says is father. Kami makes the distinction before they fuse. In crucial character moments, the father/son aspect is clearer. Toriyama himself mentioned them as separate characters "Piccolo is my favorite characters. His father is my favorite villain." I'm paraphrasing here, but the interview went something like that. Granted, I do recall one where the reincarnated bit was used when he referred to them but I think that was a more recent one and it was a bit unclear, but in the ones he did during the run of the series he spoke about them as different characters.

But they don't. It's contradictory of Toriyama's story to treat them as completely separate characters.

It's not contradictory in the least. Piccolo says when fighting Goku: " My father made the mistake of leaving you one arm" not "I made the mistake of leaving you one arm last time."

I think you are remembering wrong because if anything, it's dub fans that think they aren't one in the same.

Don't think so. I saw the dub once a few years ago and was a little upset at how far they went with that. The fact that they gave both Piccolos the same VA instead of having Kami and King Piccolo share the same one is also really telling.

[NewKakarot]

After he attains his Perfect Form, he isn't nearly as murderous as before. In the manga it's even worse because the army scene was anime filler.

Actually, the scene with the army's attack is in the manga. It's in chapter 392 (198 in Viz)