Should King Piccolo be recognized as one of classic Dragon Ball’s main villains alongside Freeza, Cell, and Majin Boo?

[KBABZ]

After he attains his Perfect Form, he isn't nearly as murderous as before. In the manga it's even worse because the army scene was anime filler.

Actually, the scene with the army's attack is in the manga. It's in chapter 392 (198 in Viz)

Oh crap! Haha, shows what I know there, not familiar with the Z half of the manga.

[ABED]

Cell also destroys a huge chunk of that city when he makes the broadcast about the Cell Games. Even if he didn't kill as many, that doesn't mean he wouldn't. He tells Trunks what he planned on doing if he won. What leads you to think he wouldn't make good on it or could be talked out of it?

They say father/son far more often though. Again, King Piccolo calls him son right before he dies, the very first thing Piccolo Jr. says is father. Kami makes the distinction before they fuse. In crucial character moments, the father/son aspect is clearer. Toriyama himself mentioned them as separate characters "Piccolo is my favorite characters. His father is my favorite villain." I'm paraphrasing here, but the interview went something like that. Granted, I do recall one where the reincarnated bit was used when he referred to them but I think that was a more recent one and it was a bit unclear, but in the ones he did during the run of the series he spoke about them as different characters.

When Piccolo and Kami are deciding about becoming one again, that implies they were ever a single being. If Piccolo is only the son, that statement would be untrue.

It's BOTH. Even in your statement you agree that it's both even if one is more prevalent. That doesn't make one more true than the other. It's a Jesus/God situation. He's both God and the son of God simultaneously. There are times when Piccolo says he's the reincarnation, which is true, and other times when he says he's the son, which is also true. If you understand they are both true, what are you getting from disagreeing?

Taking away this dynamic and making it purely father/son dynamic takes away something unique about Piccolo. Even though this story and dynamic (including his relation to Kami) was created after the first Piccolo arc, it does deepen Piccolo as a character even retroactively.

[Michsi]

When Piccolo and Kami are deciding about becoming one again, that implies they were ever a single being. If Piccolo is only the son, that statement would be untrue.

It's BOTH. Even in your statement you agree that it's both even if one is more prevalent. That doesn't make one more true than the other. It's a Jesus/God situation. He's both God and the son of God simultaneously. There are times when Piccolo says he's the reincarnation, which is true, and other times when he says he's the son, which is also true. If you understand they are both true, what are you getting from disagreeing?

Taking away this dynamic and making it purely father/son dynamic takes away something unique about Piccolo. Even though this story and dynamic (including his relation to Kami) was created after the first Piccolo arc, it does deepen Piccolo as a character even retroactively.

Because you stated that King Piccolo and Piccolo can't fuse as they are one and the same, and people who write for the franchise seem to disagree as the scenario that you deemed impossible has actually been done. King Piccolo and Piccolo Jr. are not one and same and reincarnation doesn't mean one and the same either way.

Piccolo and Kami fusing isn't a proof that Piccolo is the Demon King only that he has the same function as he does. Again, he makes the distinction clear in that very scene.

[ABED]

Because you stated that King Piccolo and Piccolo can't fuse as they are one and the same, and people who write for the franchise seem to disagree as the scenario that you deemed impossible has been actually been done. King Piccolo and Piccolo Jr. are not one and same and reincarnation doesn't mean one and the same either way.

But they don't disagree. They say they are both!
When has it been done?
I have no idea what the last sentence means.

[Michsi]

Because you stated that King Piccolo and Piccolo can't fuse as they are one and the same, and people who write for the franchise seem to disagree as the scenario that you deemed impossible has been actually been done. King Piccolo and Piccolo Jr. are not one and same and reincarnation doesn't mean one and the same either way.

But they don't disagree. They say they are both!
When has it been done?
I have no idea what the last sentence means.

Reincarnation is a mystical concept, but even when used in media, it usually doesn't mean it's the same character with a different face; in other words, describing them as one and the same isn't right.

And I just said, there was a game that has Piccolo and King Piccolo meet and fuse, which means writers for the franchise view them as separate characters as well.

[ABED]

Because you stated that King Piccolo and Piccolo can't fuse as they are one and the same, and people who write for the franchise seem to disagree as the scenario that you deemed impossible has been actually been done. King Piccolo and Piccolo Jr. are not one and same and reincarnation doesn't mean one and the same either way.

But they don't disagree. They say they are both!
When has it been done?
I have no idea what the last sentence means.

Reincarnation is a mystical concept, but even when used in media, it usually doesn't mean it's the same character with a different face; in other words, describing them as one and the same isn't right.

And I just said, there was a game that has Piccolo and King Piccolo meet and fuse, which means writers for the franchise view them as separate characters as well.

I'm taking it from Toriyama's work since he's the writer.

They are BOTH. Reincarnation means that they are both separate and the same. Reincarnation is rebirth of the same soul in a new body. It literally means "entering the flesh again".

Is your whole reason for this view based on a video game?

[Michsi]

The discussion came from

There's no need for him to refuse with Piccolo, Daimao and Piccolo are one in the same.

But could he theoretically fuse with the Kami portion? Actually that even bring up if he could be revived at all seeing as Piccolo is him

And the thing is that the scenario has precedence in the franchise. I'm sure the ones that wrote the scenario watched the same show we did and understand what reincarnation means- they still chose to make a what if scenario like that. So it's not that far-fetched to assume something like this could happen again in the main story.

[ABED]

It's a video game, so it doesn't have to go with the logic of the story. Hell, games don't have to have any story if they don't want to. I wouldn't call the "what if" scenario precedent.

[Michsi]

Toriyama himself said that DB is a story where anything is possible and he has no problem re-writing established rules when he feels like it. Regardless whether or not it's a video game, in order for someone to even come up with a story like that they needed to regard them as separate entities and from what I've seen in the fandom, specifically the Japanese one, they make a clear distinction between the two of them. So if Toriyama, or another DB writer, came up with a story that needed these two characters to coexist, most fans wouldn't go: Wait, that's not right!

[ABED]

Toriyama himself said that DB is a story where anything is possible and he has no problem re-writing established rules when he feels like it. Regardless whether or not it's a video game, in order for someone to even come up with a story like that they needed to regard them as separate entities and from what I've seen in the fandom, specifically the Japanese one, they make a clear distinction between the two of them. So if Toriyama, or another DB writer, came up with a story that needed these two characters to coexist, most fans wouldn't go: Wait, that's not right!

But that doesn't mean they would be correct, it means they don't understand that dynamic.

[Michsi]

Toriyama himself said that DB is a story where anything is possible and he has no problem re-writing established rules when he feels like it. Regardless whether or not it's a video game, in order for someone to even come up with a story like that they needed to regard them as separate entities and from what I've seen in the fandom, specifically the Japanese one, they make a clear distinction between the two of them. So if Toriyama, or another DB writer, came up with a story that needed these two characters to coexist, most fans wouldn't go: Wait, that's not right!

But that doesn't mean they would be correct, it means they don't understand that dynamic.

We're talking about a fantasy world and a mystical concept, there are no set in stone rules to determine how reincarnation should be treated. Doesn't mean they don't understand or that they are wrong, just that they have a different opinion on what aspect is more important.

[ABED]

I get your point about there being no set rules, and I agree to a point. Reincarnation can work however an author wants, but once those rules are set up, they should be consistent.

This issue isn't one of opinion. It's a matter of fact. Is he both or is he one thing? This isn't an issue of whether one is more important. Is Piccolo both father and son, or he just a son?

[Michsi]

That we two are having this discussion in the first place shows that it's very much a matter of opinion. And no one said it's one thing.
If you think you have the right of it in this matter, that's fine. All I said is that the scenario is possible since others have thought of it and it's been done before in official side-material.

[ABED]

That we two are having this discussion in the first place shows that it's very much a matter of opinion. And no one said it's one thing.
If you think you have the right of it in this matter, that's fine. All I said is that the scenario is possible since others have thought of it and it's been done before in official side-material.

No, it's very possible to have a disagreement over what are the facts.

And if no one said Piccolo was only one thing, what in the world are you arguing?

The side-material is a game and doesn't count. The game aren't constrained by story logic. For the manga or anime to do it and have it be more than a "what if" scenario, it would have to do a significant retcon.

Question for anyone that doesn't think Piccolo should be recognized as one of DB's classic villains, what could possibly stop you from doing so?

[Michsi]

That we two are having this discussion in the first place shows that it's very much a matter of opinion. And no one said it's one thing.
If you think you have the right of it in this matter, that's fine. All I said is that the scenario is possible since others have thought of it and it's been done before in official side-material.

No, it's very possible to have a disagreement over what are the facts.

And if no one said Piccolo was only one thing, what in the world are you arguing?

Here's is what I said at the start:

I said that it takes precedence, not that it overrides or contradicts it, which means I do acknowledge the reincarnation aspect.

There are no facts when it comes to reincarnation in Dragon Ball.

[ABED]

If he is just the son, then why use the term "reincarnation"?

And by saying one takes priority, you are still agreeing that he's both, so if he's both, how would they fuse?

[Michsi]

If he is just the son, then why use the term "reincarnation"?

And by saying one takes priority, you are still agreeing that he's both, so if he's both, how would they fuse?

Yes, I did so from the very beginning. The logistics isn't really something I concern myself with, as they could do it however they wanted. If they put enough effort into finding a way for King Piccolo to still exist as a separate consciousness somewhere (Hell, Demon realm, whatever) I'd buy it.

[ABED]

But his consciousness can't exist anywhere else. His consciousness is in Piccolo. Those were pretty much his parting words. This is all trippy stuff and one of the things that makes him a great, fascinating, and classic character.

[Michsi]

But his consciousness can't exist anywhere else. His consciousness is in Piccolo. Those were pretty much his parting words. This is all trippy stuff and one of the things that makes him a great, fascinating, and classic character.

His memories are in Piccolo and he inherited the bond between him and Kami. Here's where the reincarnation bit is debatable since it supposedly takes place after one dies and seeing as the Demon King was still alive when he gave birth to his son it all gets really confusing so I'm not going to say it's absolutely this or absolutely that. There's enough room for all sorts of interpretation.

[Robo4900]

King Piccolo is actually my favourite Dragon Ball villain, so hell goddamn yes.

He was a bit like Dragon Ball's Thanos in that he comes in and immediately breaks all established rules of what a Dragon Ball villain could do and be, and he was just brutal as a person. And then his reincarnated form later goes on to become my favourite character in the series. He's just great all-round.