Doctor. wrote:You're making way too many assumptions on the kind of person I am, what I think and what I do based on two or three posts of mine.
I'm not assuming anything: I'm hazarding a series of potential guesses as to where your mindset on this might be coming from, and they aren't based on just two or three posts from this one thread: you've made a LOT of your views in these kinds of matters fairly clearly known in a number of other threads on here for the past few years now, and they've painted a relatively decent picture of a number of your viewpoints on issues like this.
Regarding Shapiro and whatnot, I went with the names I went with because those tend to be some of the most common figures currently associated with a lot of very similar talking points that both yourself and lots of young people (and some not-so-young) have a tendency to parrot and regurgitate in discussions like this one. If I was mistaken on that particular, then that's obviously my bad.
Doctor. wrote:I'm not gonna reply to the rest of the spew of mischaracterization, personal attacks and outright lies in that post. I think you're the one who probably needs to socialize a bit more, preferably with people who aren't invested in turning everything into a morality war and think they have someone's entire personality figured out based on a few interactions online with someone.
I don't claim to have your particular personality "figured out": as you said, I don't know you. But I DO know quite well a LOT of the specific kind of crap you've said on here over the past several years regarding issues like this one, and I also know exactly where a LOT of it (at least within the present-most context of a great deal of young, internet-dwelling guys on nerd-heavy communities like this one) most often tends to originate from as well as the general type of outlook of a LOT of the young guys in nerd communities it most often tends to attract and resonate the most strongly with. So I took a shot. If I missed the mark, again that's on me of course and I do apologize for anything I've gotten wrong.
I don't apologize in the least however for my noting that a lot of the things you believe to be accurate about topics like this are not only wrong, they are DEEPLY twisted and not at all stemming from a healthy or educated worldview. If you haven't already, I would highly advise you to spend a LOT more time listening to the testimonies and perspectives of victims of sexual assault as well as reading some actual hard psychological studies on the impact that sexual assault has on most women, and giving them some serious thought and rumination.
Doctor. wrote:I have friends, good friends and a variety of social circles I hang out with, some of those friends are progressives unlike myself. Luckily enough, they treat me like a human being, and I them, and we get along in spite of our differences in politics.
That's fantastic, and I'm more than happy to hear that. Genuinely and sincerely. That kind of vibrant, diverse social interaction and experience is of utmost IMMENSE importance.
Yeah, I came at you with both barrels here. Maybe that wasn't the right approach for me to have taken here: but my lack of patience on this is not at all without good reason. This kind of topic is simply NOT the kind of thing for ANYONE to just casually shrug off with "Psh, I don't see what the big deal here is." Take it from ANYONE who's either been the victim of a sexual assault, or is very close to someone who has been.
Hearing so many young people online (a seemingly endless tidal wave of them) for the past several years now parrot that type of absurdly arrogant ignorance on matters like sexual assault - and a whole HOST of other gravely important, life or death matters beyond that - purely because its something that exists within a realm that is outside of their normal purview... that has been a MASSIVELY recurring theme within pretty much the vast bulk of internet culture for some time now, and one that has leaked out very much into the real world (with absolutely devastating
consequences for a great many people) and its left a lot of people who've spent every day for the past several years dealing with that fallout - including myself - at our wits end.
So yes, I lit into you here. I normally wouldn't do that to ANY random person over almost ANY other topic: but when you delve into matters like rape/sexual assault, as well as countless other major problems (both broadly social and otherwise political)... this shit ISN'T a joke. What you're saying here is FAR from "harmless shitposting" or whatever. Matters of this nature are NOTHING to be shrugged off as "Pft, whatever, I don't see why people should get up in arms about it."
And for the past 10+ years or so now, I've seen firsthand the painfully real-world repercussions of too many ignorant, naive people talking out their asses (both online and off) about shit that is WAY beyond their understanding, and the myriad of ways in which that type of ignorance (and a certain kind of presumptive arrogance that comes with it) can do serious and all too real and tangible hurt and damage other people's lives, whether they realize it or not.
Point being: when it comes to topics and issues that genuinely affect other people's personal well being on this visceral a level, educate the living FUCK out of yourself about it first before you talk out your ass and say something INCREDIBLY stupid, ignorant, and disgusting about it out in public (and which I GUARANTEE you that you will years from now look back on with no small amount of shame and cringing horror at how unbelievably callous and stupid you were for actually thinking that).
Rest assured, my intent in all of this wasn't to antagonize or bully you: think of this as my usually-long-winded manner of metaphorically slapping you upside the head and saying "Stop. You're seriously being a colossal
fucking idiot here and you clearly don't even remotely realize the immense gravity and magnitude of the waters in which you're casually spewing shit into."
Doctor. wrote:I know, legitimately, that sometimes it's hard to maintain your composure and treat people as people online, and not as strawmen or boogeymen, but relax. Take a step back, realize what you're doing.
Believe it or not, I agree with this sentiment FAR more than you'd probably ever begin to guess at.
I've lived by this very particular principal in my online experiences since pretty much forever and ever ago now (likely before a lot of folks here were even born yet). I do indeed make it a VERY important point to treat everyone
I meet and interact with online as a flesh and blood person (because that's what they are
, and oftentimes cannot believe or wrap my mind around how it is that anyone
can lose sight of that) and I do take IMMENSE care to make sure that my every interaction online is no different than what it would be if I were talking to that person out in the real world face to face.
So that being said: yes, everything
I just said to you here in this thread I can assure you I would've said to you word-for-word (more or less) if we were having this conversation in real life and you were saying the kind of crap you've been saying here. Because its THAT serious.
Doctor. wrote:You're insulting a "kid" (your words) over petty nonsense, due to an argument he's not invested in.
You just spelled out right there EXACTLY why I laid into you as harshly as I did just now. Right there. Plain as day.
"over petty nonsense"
"over petty nonsense"
"over petty nonsene"
An actor who has a genuinely sizable fanbase of people who adore and implicitly trust him (particularly young girls) has been credibly accused of horrendously
betraying that trust and taking advantage of his young fans in ways that perfectly validate and justify PRECISELY why it is that most women out in the world are as jumpy and constantly on their guard 24/7 with most men they meet as they are.
When you call a situation like this "petty nonsense" you reveal EXACTLY the degree and depth of obscene ignorance about something that is NOT AT ALL A JOKE that I've been lacing into you over in this thread. Yeah, its probably a genuinely decent question of whether or not the harsh approach that I took here was the BEST or most effective one for me to have taken, as opposed to something softer and gentler: but like I said, given the context of what the past decade+ has been like for a lot of folks like myself on this end, you'll forgive me if my patience-level for stuff like this isn't always at its maximum capacity.
Rest assured though: sexual assault, of ANY degree or level, is the POLAR DIAMETRIC OPPOSITE of "petty nonsense". Simply because YOU'RE someone who (more than likely I think its fair to say here) hasn't had to deal with it or its repercussions firsthand, that in NO way means that those repercussions aren't something that is PAINFULLY fucking destructive and life-upending to a great number of other people out there. Just because you personally are incapable of imagining it or what its like, that in NO way means that it isn't a VERY real thing that affects COUNTLESS lives out there in the world around you.
If you aren't able to connect the very simple, rudimentary dots that "What doesn't bother me personally may well DEEPLY harm someone else who ISN'T me", then its more than fair to say that you have a horrifically stunted and atrophied moral imagination, and that is something that I am urging you, in the most sincere and respectful way I possibly can, to put in some serious soul-searching time into fixing that.
No, I don't know you. Yes however, despite our being effectively strangers, I AM judging your views on this based on (a not insubstantial amount of, contrary to what you might think) posts you've made on this forum about topics like this over the last few years now: and based on those posts and the views you've expressed in them, you are clearly someone who at a baremost minimum needs DESPERATELY to get the fuck outside of yourself and your own narrow experiences and point of view (and yes, I've read enough of what you've had to say here on various subjects like this one to make the judgement that your point of view, certainly in topics like this at least, is indeed VERY narrow), and try to take some time to genuinely understand what life is like in the shoes of OTHER people who aren't you or share your perspective. You'll be amazed
at some of the things you'll learn.
If the only/worst thing you walk away from with arguments about subjects like this is some hurt feelings over having been insulted by someone... then trust me when I say that them's are INCREDIBLY low stakes compared to that which sexual assault victims have to endure. Particularly when other people doubt them and doubt their validity and what they've gone through.
And if, in the process of spelling out the IMMENSE fucking gravity and severity of that problem (as you've clearly indicated throughout this thread as well as several others that you evidently need this spelled out for you in crayon), I've managed to insult or belittle you and hurt your feelings as a consequence... then I'll more than happily accept that as an infinitesimally
small price to pay in the grand scheme of this issue. After all, isn't that what that whole "facts don't care about your feelings" meme that people on the right online love to trot out is all about?
Contrary to what you might think, people (myself included) aren't
trying to "lord our morality over you" when we come down on you for saying the kinds of things that you're saying here: we're telling you, in the loudest, clearest, most unmistakable manner that we possibly can, that you haven't the FOGGIEST fucking clue what the hell you're talking about on this matter and are saying some INCREDIBLY hurtful, damaging, and downright detestable shit, whether you realize it or not.
If I were you, when THAT many people (of a myriad of different walks of life from all around the world no less) are repeating more or less that same exact message to you time after time in conversations like this one, I'd eventually take that as a hint that "Mmmmmmmaybe I'm spewing some noxious bullshit here and don't realize it" instead of getting defensively defiant and obstinate as you dig your heels into this particularly vile ditch even further.
Doctor. wrote:You Americans always take your online politics so seriously; you don't win anything by calling a random person online a piece of shit for not sharing your, usually, black-and-white worldview. There's nothing to gain by painting people from across the ocean with such a broad brush.
I love how you chastised me for painting people (yourself in this case) with a broad brush... right after you effectively paint Americans in general with a broad brush. Within the same fucking sentence more or less. Cognitive dissonance, what's that?
But seriously though: sexual assault/harassment, generally speaking, IS more or less a fairly black-and-white issue. Its honestly NOT that hard or complicated most of the time: when the other person doesn't want it, DON'T touch them. When the other person is underage, even if they DO claim that they "want it" DON'T touch them, unless its in such a purely platonic way that you KNOW with utmost 100% certainty is ok and appropriate and moreover have the explicit trust of both them and their parent/guardian to do so.
Flirting is fantastic, flirting is fun, flirting makes being an adult and having a night life an awesome experience: but unwanted touching of ANY sort (especially to minors) is NOT flirting. It NEVER was in at least a good several generations now. This isn't a Pepe Le Pew cartoon: suddenly grabbing and kissing a girl out of the blue when she hasn't even VAGUELY hinted that she's interested (and yet again, ESPECIALLY if she's a minor) is NOT an acceptable form of wooing her, and that's NOT how this shit works out in the world. Hell, its not even how it works in sex/swingers clubs where out and out orgies take place (where there are VERY strict rules and guidelines about this kind of thing, and expect to have the cops called on your ass if you violate them).
This isn't rocket surgery: keep your hands to yourself unless the other person is a consenting adult who's made it expressly clear that they want
you to touch them. Period.
This BASIC social norm has been consistent and gone largely unchanged since I was in preschool (and its obviously been around LONG before then too). More than plenty of us have made it through DECADES of dating and all kinds of zany and wild (but no less 100% consensual) sexual escapades understanding this fact without any