Vic Mignogna

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Marlowe89
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Marlowe89 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:28 pm

SaintEvolution wrote: Maybe Mignogna was too cloggy to his fans, without intentions of actually abusing them? Maybe, that is a possibility too.
We can't really know the truth with we already have.
To be clear, I think that's entirely possible. As someone who comes from the southeastern United States, where people are perhaps too comfortable with each other too quickly, I understand all too well why there might be some truth in Vic presumably being brought up that way.

It still doesn't excuse his actions, nor should it make him free from the consequences. At all.

This is someone who interacts with fans around the world, a large percentage of them females, with different backgrounds, belief systems, experiences and preferences. Many of them simply aren't gonna be all that keen on getting hugged, kissed, or groped (yes, groped -- intentionally or not) without their consent. Minors are legally incapable of it. His behavior, regardless of his actual intentions, is completely unacceptable in any environment. If workplaces don't allow it, and if the fucking LAW doesn't allow it, maybe he should consider that what he's doing is uncalled for.

But he hasn't considered this for 10 years. If he has, he's deliberately ignoring it. I don't doubt that people have confronted him about it. I'm certain he's heard the rumors surrounding him a million times. I can't fathom how stubbornly predatory someone would have to be to resume what is unobstensibly sexual harrassment for such a long period of time with no regard for who it affects. It boggles the brain. There's no excuse for any of this.

There needs to be repercussions. This shouldn't have ever gone on for as long as it has.

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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by TVfan721 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:26 pm

I have lost a ton of respect for Funimation for saying absolutely nothing on this matter. Fucking shameful.

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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Kunzait_83 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:27 pm

Doctor. wrote:What am I missing? That he was insistent? Yes, that's a bit troubling. It indicates that he feels all too comfortable apparently flirting with underage girls, which should be the bigger issue here, not that he feels comfortable sexually assaulting women, because there was no sexual assault.
When you "flirt" (or more accurately in this case, inappropriately touch) underage girls on a fairly consistent bases for years... that indeed, just by nature of the age alone, is textbook sexual assault. As you yourself noted: they're underage. Under consent laws, that's a statutory offense: by DEFINITION its still an assault, even if the girls actually *did* consent to it (since they're minors). Which they didn't. Just like how consensual sex between an adult and a minor is still considered "rape" in a legal sense on the adult's part.

Even setting aside all the headache-inducing pedantry over what particular kind of unsolicited kissing/grabbing does or does not constitute a sexual assault under one's own personal definition, the fact that these girls WERE largely underage makes it sexual assault either way anyhow. So most of your other points are rendered soundly moot anyhow, and make you come off as if you're trying to be (at best) needlessly contrarian just for the sake of it.
Doctor. wrote:Is it sexual harassment? Perhaps. It's debatable.
Since we're now splitting hairs between "harassment" and "assault" labels: kissing or grabbing someone without their consent, particularly if they're underage (as a large number of these girls typically were) is AT A BARE MINIMUM sexual harassment without the slightest room for debate. Going so far as to say that even the harassment label is "debatable" is REALLY tipping your hand here in a fairly disturbing and repulsive way.

The most GENEROUS possible reading I can conceivably give your mindset in playing contrarian against all of this is that perhaps you're someone who is (by and large overall) socially isolated and somewhere on the spectrum who spends a large chunk of their time online and has watched WAY too many "anti-SJW" rant videos on youtube, and have thus gotten yourself into a knee-jerk conservative reactionary mindset for these kinds of topics. Again, that's the most generous takeaway I can conceivably grant you here.

Almost any other takeaway outside of that delves into some pretty dark waters I'd rather not touch upon in any detail, at least at the moment. You seem like a well-spoken, ostensibly thoughtful person, so I dearly, dearly hope that something along the lines of "impressionable and socially inexperienced and isolated/alienated loner kid who may or may not have some vague developmental disability is just watching waaaaaaaay too much of the wrong Youtube channels with his surplus of free time" is all that is going on with you here. Because the alternatives to THAT are pretty damn grotesque, and I'd be forced to ask the following profoundly uncomfortable question...

...Under what POSSIBLE circumstances in your eyes is it even VAGUELY socially acceptable for a grown man - who is still more or less a perfect stranger, despite being a public figure - to suddenly grab at and kiss on a young underage girl without her consent or even expecting it?

As far as I - and pretty much every other relatively sane human being on this planet, have EVER been aware of for virtually my ENTIRE life... that type of behavior (particularly more so when its a consistent pattern stretching on for years/decades) has NEVER been within the faintest zipcode of "socially acceptable" at ANY point: certainly not in my lifetime, nor even in my parents and grandparents lifetimes.

This is baseline common sense we're talking about here. On the same level of raw simplicity as "how to tie one's shoes" or "don't leave the house and walk into work or school completely naked" or "make sure to not hit the toilet seat when you go", etc. "Don't suddenly grope at or kiss underage girls (or boys) you don't know without their consent" is in the same "Yeah, no shit Sherlock" mental basket as any of those. And yes, at the absolute barest minimum, is almost the dictionary definition of "sexual harassment".
Doctor. wrote:I don't care enough to argue for either side
And yet, you're still here doing just that.
Doctor. wrote:Is it sexual assault? Now that's where you're losing me. I shouldn't think that unsuccessful and clumsy flirting (there was no groping of any sort, from what was described) is enough to illicit emotional and psychological trauma on someone, but apparently I'm wrong.
From the very article you just claimed you read:
During this conversation, Pridemore claims Mignogna slid his hand up her back and through her hair before grabbing and tugging it.
She discussed how the voice actor put his hand underneath her zip-up sweatshirt and on her waist for the initial photo.
And see, lest you think that the whole "any alternatives point to something very grotesque that might be going on with you" bit above was some kind of an overstatement or overreaction on my end: we have you here describing the kind of inexcusably gross behavior that Mignogna is alleged to have engaged in for years (quite credibly so) in question here as "clumsy flirting". Again, you're showing WAY too much of your hand here.

Suddenly grabbing and kissing someone, ANYONE of ANY age but ESPECIALLY when they're underage... in NO fucking galaxy does this fall under the banner of just "clumsy flirting". Clumsy flirting is dropping a cheesy, groan-worthy pickup line. Clumsy flirting is stammering out a nervous, barely coherent "S-s-s-o... yuh-you doing anything Sa-Saturday night?" Clumsy flirting is trying, and failing spectacularly, to pretend that you're deeply into the same band she's wearing a t-shirt of while knowing absolutely jack shit about them (Er... not that I would know anything about that last one from firsthand experience or anything :mrgreen: ).

However, a 40 to 50-something year old man snaking his arms around the hips of some 15 year old girl and then planting one on her as his way of trying to "charm" her: that would rightly and justifiably get most such men (who aren't minor "celebrities" at a Nerd Convention of some sort) under virtually ANY other circumstances SLAMMED in the fucking face by her - or by any adult presence near her - and have the fucking police called on their creeper ass.

Unless you've somehow never had any kind of responsible adult presence in your life to instill even THOROUGHLY basic social norms into your upbringing, and you just came into adulthood a perfect Tabula-Rasa of sexual naivety and innocence (and I'm in NO way ruling out that possibility, because as I read through this godawful trainwreck of a thread I'm deliberately putting myself through all manner of mental hoops to try and be as overly-fair and forgiving to you as I possibly can be, given the putrid shit you're spewing here)...

...then calling a grown-man of 40 to 50 suddenly pawing at and smooching on girls as young as early teenagers "clumsy flirting" is painting all kinds of hideous, nauseating "Creepy 4chan Neckbeard" stereotypes about your sexual outlook that I would URGE you to SERIOUSLY re-evaluate. ASAP.
Doctor. wrote:This seems like an American thing again, so I'll distance myself from the discussion. I can't muster enough energy to care about societal norms on the other side of the Atlantic.
...and now I might have to rescind the "thoughtful" comment from before because come the fuck on dude. This would be considered unacceptable behavior in almost ANY reasonably modernized society.

Don't even TRY to make it sound like this is some esoteric "American vs European social norms" thing: because I don't have to spend my whole life living in merry old England or Italy or Spain or Ireland or France to know that even over there in those regions, a grown-ass man unwantedly kissing and touching underage girls on a consistent basis for years would be considered VERY scandalous and damaging to that man's reputation at a bare minimum (and rightly so)- unless they're some bigshot politician or celebrity or whatnot who can just throw a boatload of money and lawyers at it. And on some level, you MUST KNOW that.

This is about as weak-sauce and laughably disingenuous a copout excuse as "depends on what your definition of 'is' is". You're not even TRYING at this point.
Doctor. wrote:This is wokespeak for "I don't want to debate your position because it makes me feel uncomfortable so I'm just gonna passive-aggressively show how I'm morally superior to you."
And this is Chan/Reactionary-speak for "I have no friends and no social life and no real clue whatsoever about how basic social interactions between everyday people in the real world work, and I instead spend all day in front of a computer mainlining videos of people like Ben Shapiro, Stefan Molyneux, Jordan Peterson, and Sargon of Akkad owning the SJWs with 'logic and facts', and thus have mastered the art responding to anything that even VAGUELY smells of libtard snowflakery to me - no matter how obviously serious of a real issue it actually is - with snide, passive aggressive pedantry and concern trolling".

You see, I can play this game too: its not exactly difficult or intellectually impressive to respond to people's very real concerns about very real social issues with accusing them of what effectively amounts to bullshit deflections like "virtue signaling" and "white knighting" and whatnot (which is basically what you just did here, without using those exact terms). Rhetorically, you're just accusing everyone who recognizes and responds to a serious problem that only affects some nebulous "others" of insincerely working some kind of an angle. "You're just pretending you care to feel good about yourself!" and whatnot.

Because oftentimes (and no I'm not a psychologist, but I sometimes like to play one on the internet just for kicks) somewhere deep down the people who are most quick to throw this kind of accusation around as part of the crux of their argument... they often do so partly because they simply assume (consciously or unconsciously) that everyone else in the world generally shares the same callous apathy and lack of concern for others as they do, and so they MUST be simply "faking it" to get something out of it for themselves, even if that "something" is just purely emotional or psychological.

I'm now suddenly calling to mind a certain movie quote that actually fits very well here:

"What were you trying to prove? That deep down, everyone's as ugly as you? You're alone!"

Also, the whole "that's not an argument" shtick especially falls on its face when plenty of people in here HAVE been giving you very real and very logistically sound and valid (and frankly common sense and common decency) reasons for why shit like this is a very real problem that needs to be taken exceedingly seriously.

An adult (male OR female) kissing and grabbing at minors (again, male OR female) unsolicited and getting away with it for years is, under almost ANY sane objective metric, simply an unacceptable state of events. I'm not in any way saying the dude deserves the death penalty or life in prison or anything absurdly extreme: but this shit is CLEARLY textbook sexual harassment at an absolute bare fucking minimum, particularly all the more so since the majority of victims are underage so its statutory by definition. He should consider himself DAMN lucky if he only loses his VA career and has his reputation stained by this, as opposed to having real charges filed against him.

And yes, on a standpoint of at least basic social norms (since all consent-laws, or lack thereof, and their particulars vary wildly from region to region) this OBVIOUSLY goes for whether its America, Poland, Iceland, Scotland, Australia, Belgium, motherfucking Ukraine, or where-the-fuck-ever other region on the planet that's at least reasonably modernized.

Europe isn't America, but its also not some Ugandan hellhole under Warlord rule or some giant Burmese prison camp of a continent, or Neptune, or Outworld, or whatever the fuck ridiculous type of "impenetrable, esoteric cultural differences" you might try to claim are at play here.

Again I'm HOPING, for your sake, that you're just some naive, gullible kid who doesn't get out and socialize enough, spends way too much time on 4chan, and has had his head filled with reactionary nonsense by right wing grifters and con men on Youtube or whatnot (since there's been a LOT of that going around these days). Or just hang out around a lot of people who fit that particular bill. Because otherwise, some of your various "hot takes" on this issue that you've been putting forth here are fairly disturbing and worrisome, particularly with regards to the VERY clear line between "flirting" and "assault".
Last edited by Kunzait_83 on Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Marlowe89 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:37 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote: And this is Chan/Reactionary-speak for "I have no friends and no social life and no real clue whatsoever about how basic social interactions between everyday people in the real world work
Wholly agreed, but if at all possible, please edit your post to reflect Doctor. as the rightful author of that quote instead of me. I don't wish to be associated with reactionary-speak.

Thanks!
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Kunzait_83 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:39 pm

Shit sorry, don't know how I missed that. Fixed.
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Kunzait's Wuxia Thread
Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:46 pm

AgitoZ wrote:
JulieYBM wrote:The fact that Hodd Taberkorn felt that it was necessary to jump into this conversation at all just goes to show that he wants to control the narrative. That's all rapists want: control. Taberkorn's response to Sheehan gives a perfect psychological profile of the guy: he thinks he's entitled to control the narrative. A victim spoke out, he got cold feel like the little coward that he is, and decided that even though Pridemore had no intent to publicize who it was that he had to slander her. Taberkorn is a piece of shit and I feel betrayed as a fan of his work as Spock. I hope other victims come forward and he gets tried and convicted, just like Mic Vignogna.
It's odd how hard you're going against Haberkorn. He admits in his post that he himself was a sexual abuse victim. Why do you fully believe one victim but not another? You're overcompensating way too hard.
His actions made me angry. I expressed that anger and am now finished expressing my anger (that and I'm writing this post on a treadmill so I'm burning off my energy). Should criminal prosecution occur and a suspect tried and convicted I am more than happy to give them a second chance after their debt to society is paid based on principle.

Taberkorn implicated himself in a horrifying crime and cannot even get his own friends to back him up. Sounds like something a piece of shit would do. That or he's just a incompetent dumbass and doesn't understand that he isn't the victim here. That's even sadder.


Wait, what the fuck is Dragon Ball?
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by LordCrumb » Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:47 pm

TVfan721 wrote:I have lost a ton of respect for Funimation for saying absolutely nothing on this matter. Fucking shameful.
I must have missed it, has he been charged with a crime?

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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by gokaiblue » Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:53 pm

TVfan721 wrote:I have lost a ton of respect for Funimation for saying absolutely nothing on this matter. Fucking shameful.
They're probably either waiting to say something or simply see Vic Mignogna as an independent contractor (which he is essentially) and therefore not necessarily a representative of their company. I honestly don't know why this is suddenly blowing up if people have been posting about this for years, especially considering that the claims are legitimate. As for Todd Haberkorn, I'll need more information to make a final judgement, but considering how he once essentially covered for a rapist, I'm leaning more towards the claims being legitimate.
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:59 pm

gokaiblue wrote:
TVfan721 wrote:I have lost a ton of respect for Funimation for saying absolutely nothing on this matter. Fucking shameful.
They're probably either waiting to say something or simply see Vic Mignogna as an independent contractor (which he is essentially) and therefore not necessarily a representative of their company. I honestly don't know why this is suddenly blowing up if people have been posting about this for years, especially considering that the claims are legitimate. As for Todd Haberkorn, I'll need more information to make a final judgement, but considering how he once essentially covered for a rapist, I'm leaning more towards the claims being legitimate.
The important thing is that predators are being outed and their control broken by the fandom. Making our safe places safer from scum is always welcome.

It should happen sooner, yes, but don't underestimate corruption.
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Doctor. » Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:03 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote: videos of people like Ben Shapiro, Stefan Molyneux, Jordan Peterson, and Sargon of Akkad
Ew, no. What the fuck? I want nothing to do with those morons, especially not Molyneux and Shapiro. You're making way too many assumptions on the kind of person I am, what I think and what I do based on two or three posts of mine. I'm not gonna reply to the rest of the spew of mischaracterization, personal attacks and outright lies in that post. I think you're the one who probably needs to socialize a bit more, preferably with people who aren't invested in turning everything into a morality war and think they have someone's entire personality figured out based on a few interactions online with someone. I have friends, good friends and a variety of social circles I hang out with, some of those friends are progressives unlike myself. Luckily enough, they treat me like a human being, and I them, and we get along in spite of our differences in politics.

I know, legitimately, that sometimes it's hard to maintain your composure and treat people as people online, and not as strawmen or boogeymen, but relax. Take a step back, realize what you're doing. You're insulting a "kid" (your words) over petty nonsense, due to an argument he's not invested in. You Americans always take your online politics so seriously; you don't win anything by calling a random person online a piece of shit for not sharing your, usually, black-and-white worldview. There's nothing to gain by painting people from across the ocean with such a broad brush.

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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Kunzait_83 » Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:51 am

Doctor. wrote:You're making way too many assumptions on the kind of person I am, what I think and what I do based on two or three posts of mine.
I'm not assuming anything: I'm hazarding a series of potential guesses as to where your mindset on this might be coming from, and they aren't based on just two or three posts from this one thread: you've made a LOT of your views in these kinds of matters fairly clearly known in a number of other threads on here for the past few years now, and they've painted a relatively decent picture of a number of your viewpoints on issues like this.

Regarding Shapiro and whatnot, I went with the names I went with because those tend to be some of the most common figures currently associated with a lot of very similar talking points that both yourself and lots of young people (and some not-so-young) have a tendency to parrot and regurgitate in discussions like this one. If I was mistaken on that particular, then that's obviously my bad.
Doctor. wrote:I'm not gonna reply to the rest of the spew of mischaracterization, personal attacks and outright lies in that post. I think you're the one who probably needs to socialize a bit more, preferably with people who aren't invested in turning everything into a morality war and think they have someone's entire personality figured out based on a few interactions online with someone.
I don't claim to have your particular personality "figured out": as you said, I don't know you. But I DO know quite well a LOT of the specific kind of crap you've said on here over the past several years regarding issues like this one, and I also know exactly where a LOT of it (at least within the present-most context of a great deal of young, internet-dwelling guys on nerd-heavy communities like this one) most often tends to originate from as well as the general type of outlook of a LOT of the young guys in nerd communities it most often tends to attract and resonate the most strongly with. So I took a shot. If I missed the mark, again that's on me of course and I do apologize for anything I've gotten wrong.

I don't apologize in the least however for my noting that a lot of the things you believe to be accurate about topics like this are not only wrong, they are DEEPLY twisted and not at all stemming from a healthy or educated worldview. If you haven't already, I would highly advise you to spend a LOT more time listening to the testimonies and perspectives of victims of sexual assault as well as reading some actual hard psychological studies on the impact that sexual assault has on most women, and giving them some serious thought and rumination.
Doctor. wrote:I have friends, good friends and a variety of social circles I hang out with, some of those friends are progressives unlike myself. Luckily enough, they treat me like a human being, and I them, and we get along in spite of our differences in politics.
That's fantastic, and I'm more than happy to hear that. Genuinely and sincerely. That kind of vibrant, diverse social interaction and experience is of utmost IMMENSE importance.

Yeah, I came at you with both barrels here. Maybe that wasn't the right approach for me to have taken here: but my lack of patience on this is not at all without good reason. This kind of topic is simply NOT the kind of thing for ANYONE to just casually shrug off with "Psh, I don't see what the big deal here is." Take it from ANYONE who's either been the victim of a sexual assault, or is very close to someone who has been.

Hearing so many young people online (a seemingly endless tidal wave of them) for the past several years now parrot that type of absurdly arrogant ignorance on matters like sexual assault - and a whole HOST of other gravely important, life or death matters beyond that - purely because its something that exists within a realm that is outside of their normal purview... that has been a MASSIVELY recurring theme within pretty much the vast bulk of internet culture for some time now, and one that has leaked out very much into the real world (with absolutely devastating consequences for a great many people) and its left a lot of people who've spent every day for the past several years dealing with that fallout - including myself - at our wits end.

So yes, I lit into you here. I normally wouldn't do that to ANY random person over almost ANY other topic: but when you delve into matters like rape/sexual assault, as well as countless other major problems (both broadly social and otherwise political)... this shit ISN'T a joke. What you're saying here is FAR from "harmless shitposting" or whatever. Matters of this nature are NOTHING to be shrugged off as "Pft, whatever, I don't see why people should get up in arms about it."

And for the past 10+ years or so now, I've seen firsthand the painfully real-world repercussions of too many ignorant, naive people talking out their asses (both online and off) about shit that is WAY beyond their understanding, and the myriad of ways in which that type of ignorance (and a certain kind of presumptive arrogance that comes with it) can do serious and all too real and tangible hurt and damage other people's lives, whether they realize it or not.

Point being: when it comes to topics and issues that genuinely affect other people's personal well being on this visceral a level, educate the living FUCK out of yourself about it first before you talk out your ass and say something INCREDIBLY stupid, ignorant, and disgusting about it out in public (and which I GUARANTEE you that you will years from now look back on with no small amount of shame and cringing horror at how unbelievably callous and stupid you were for actually thinking that).

Rest assured, my intent in all of this wasn't to antagonize or bully you: think of this as my usually-long-winded manner of metaphorically slapping you upside the head and saying "Stop. You're seriously being a colossal fucking idiot here and you clearly don't even remotely realize the immense gravity and magnitude of the waters in which you're casually spewing shit into."
Doctor. wrote:I know, legitimately, that sometimes it's hard to maintain your composure and treat people as people online, and not as strawmen or boogeymen, but relax. Take a step back, realize what you're doing.
Believe it or not, I agree with this sentiment FAR more than you'd probably ever begin to guess at.

I've lived by this very particular principal in my online experiences since pretty much forever and ever ago now (likely before a lot of folks here were even born yet). I do indeed make it a VERY important point to treat everyone I meet and interact with online as a flesh and blood person (because that's what they are, and oftentimes cannot believe or wrap my mind around how it is that anyone can lose sight of that) and I do take IMMENSE care to make sure that my every interaction online is no different than what it would be if I were talking to that person out in the real world face to face.

So that being said: yes, everything I just said to you here in this thread I can assure you I would've said to you word-for-word (more or less) if we were having this conversation in real life and you were saying the kind of crap you've been saying here. Because its THAT serious.
Doctor. wrote:You're insulting a "kid" (your words) over petty nonsense, due to an argument he's not invested in.
You just spelled out right there EXACTLY why I laid into you as harshly as I did just now. Right there. Plain as day.

"over petty nonsense"

"over petty nonsense"

"over petty nonsene"

An actor who has a genuinely sizable fanbase of people who adore and implicitly trust him (particularly young girls) has been credibly accused of horrendously betraying that trust and taking advantage of his young fans in ways that perfectly validate and justify PRECISELY why it is that most women out in the world are as jumpy and constantly on their guard 24/7 with most men they meet as they are.

When you call a situation like this "petty nonsense" you reveal EXACTLY the degree and depth of obscene ignorance about something that is NOT AT ALL A JOKE that I've been lacing into you over in this thread. Yeah, its probably a genuinely decent question of whether or not the harsh approach that I took here was the BEST or most effective one for me to have taken, as opposed to something softer and gentler: but like I said, given the context of what the past decade+ has been like for a lot of folks like myself on this end, you'll forgive me if my patience-level for stuff like this isn't always at its maximum capacity.

Rest assured though: sexual assault, of ANY degree or level, is the POLAR DIAMETRIC OPPOSITE of "petty nonsense". Simply because YOU'RE someone who (more than likely I think its fair to say here) hasn't had to deal with it or its repercussions firsthand, that in NO way means that those repercussions aren't something that is PAINFULLY fucking destructive and life-upending to a great number of other people out there. Just because you personally are incapable of imagining it or what its like, that in NO way means that it isn't a VERY real thing that affects COUNTLESS lives out there in the world around you.

If you aren't able to connect the very simple, rudimentary dots that "What doesn't bother me personally may well DEEPLY harm someone else who ISN'T me", then its more than fair to say that you have a horrifically stunted and atrophied moral imagination, and that is something that I am urging you, in the most sincere and respectful way I possibly can, to put in some serious soul-searching time into fixing that.

No, I don't know you. Yes however, despite our being effectively strangers, I AM judging your views on this based on (a not insubstantial amount of, contrary to what you might think) posts you've made on this forum about topics like this over the last few years now: and based on those posts and the views you've expressed in them, you are clearly someone who at a baremost minimum needs DESPERATELY to get the fuck outside of yourself and your own narrow experiences and point of view (and yes, I've read enough of what you've had to say here on various subjects like this one to make the judgement that your point of view, certainly in topics like this at least, is indeed VERY narrow), and try to take some time to genuinely understand what life is like in the shoes of OTHER people who aren't you or share your perspective. You'll be amazed at some of the things you'll learn.

If the only/worst thing you walk away from with arguments about subjects like this is some hurt feelings over having been insulted by someone... then trust me when I say that them's are INCREDIBLY low stakes compared to that which sexual assault victims have to endure. Particularly when other people doubt them and doubt their validity and what they've gone through.

And if, in the process of spelling out the IMMENSE fucking gravity and severity of that problem (as you've clearly indicated throughout this thread as well as several others that you evidently need this spelled out for you in crayon), I've managed to insult or belittle you and hurt your feelings as a consequence... then I'll more than happily accept that as an infinitesimally small price to pay in the grand scheme of this issue. After all, isn't that what that whole "facts don't care about your feelings" meme that people on the right online love to trot out is all about?

Contrary to what you might think, people (myself included) aren't trying to "lord our morality over you" when we come down on you for saying the kinds of things that you're saying here: we're telling you, in the loudest, clearest, most unmistakable manner that we possibly can, that you haven't the FOGGIEST fucking clue what the hell you're talking about on this matter and are saying some INCREDIBLY hurtful, damaging, and downright detestable shit, whether you realize it or not.

If I were you, when THAT many people (of a myriad of different walks of life from all around the world no less) are repeating more or less that same exact message to you time after time in conversations like this one, I'd eventually take that as a hint that "Mmmmmmmaybe I'm spewing some noxious bullshit here and don't realize it" instead of getting defensively defiant and obstinate as you dig your heels into this particularly vile ditch even further.
Doctor. wrote:You Americans always take your online politics so seriously; you don't win anything by calling a random person online a piece of shit for not sharing your, usually, black-and-white worldview. There's nothing to gain by painting people from across the ocean with such a broad brush.
I love how you chastised me for painting people (yourself in this case) with a broad brush... right after you effectively paint Americans in general with a broad brush. Within the same fucking sentence more or less. Cognitive dissonance, what's that? :lol:

But seriously though: sexual assault/harassment, generally speaking, IS more or less a fairly black-and-white issue. Its honestly NOT that hard or complicated most of the time: when the other person doesn't want it, DON'T touch them. When the other person is underage, even if they DO claim that they "want it" DON'T touch them, unless its in such a purely platonic way that you KNOW with utmost 100% certainty is ok and appropriate and moreover have the explicit trust of both them and their parent/guardian to do so.

Flirting is fantastic, flirting is fun, flirting makes being an adult and having a night life an awesome experience: but unwanted touching of ANY sort (especially to minors) is NOT flirting. It NEVER was in at least a good several generations now. This isn't a Pepe Le Pew cartoon: suddenly grabbing and kissing a girl out of the blue when she hasn't even VAGUELY hinted that she's interested (and yet again, ESPECIALLY if she's a minor) is NOT an acceptable form of wooing her, and that's NOT how this shit works out in the world. Hell, its not even how it works in sex/swingers clubs where out and out orgies take place (where there are VERY strict rules and guidelines about this kind of thing, and expect to have the cops called on your ass if you violate them).

This isn't rocket surgery: keep your hands to yourself unless the other person is a consenting adult who's made it expressly clear that they want you to touch them. Period. This BASIC social norm has been consistent and gone largely unchanged since I was in preschool (and its obviously been around LONG before then too). More than plenty of us have made it through DECADES of dating and all kinds of zany and wild (but no less 100% consensual) sexual escapades understanding this fact without any trouble whatsoever.
Last edited by Kunzait_83 on Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
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Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Kataphrut » Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:59 am

I don't understand how anyone could say there's room for doubt over the Pridemore/Haberkorn story, that's about as cut and dry as it gets in my opinion. She shared an account of sexual assault (a horrifying story she was brave as hell to come out about I might add), didn't name or ask the perpetrator to be named, and then once people started confirming it, Haberkorn jumped on it by providing a lengthy, detailed version of his own story. It should be obvious from that behaviour alone that he was panicked and trying to run damage control. The only real difference in the stories is that he alleged it was consensual, she alleged it wasn't. At that point it's he said-she said but with a huge dosage of Occam's Razor- ie why would she reveal this deeply personal information if it wasn't true, and why would he respond the way he did if he wasn't aware on some level that he was guilty?

Anyway, you also have a third person who was there weighed in, Adam Sheehan, who confirmed that he was there, he saw she was being given too much to drink, she couldn't consent and nobody stopped her leaving with Haberkorn. So now you have a third-party eye-witness testimony. That's about as close to hard evidence as you're gonna fucking get in these situations short of catching it happen on film. Which, incidentally is always what the bad actors who say "lol where's the evidence" are demanding because they know it's infeasible to expect that sort of evidence to exist for every situation.

You can apply that to any situation in which a person makes a public accusation of sexual harassment/assault against a powerful figure. It's airing personal, often shameful details in public and they nearly always end up a target as a result, so they have nothing to gain by lying. That's why it's so important to believe women, and to believe victims. Refusing to do so enables a toxic culture of silence, and it doesn't make you more "logical". It makes you naive at best.

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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:24 am

What I'm wondering is where the Schemmel accusers are.

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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Tian » Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:30 am

TVfan721 wrote:I have lost a ton of respect for Funimation for saying absolutely nothing on this matter. Fucking shameful.
Huh, I just have lost all the respect I had for them but not for the same reason as you. If you wanna know what I'm talking about, it's on the "Gen Fukunaga steps down as GM at FUNimation" thread. You will probably be shocked about how the company treats both their employees and fans.
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by coola » Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:40 am

Kunzait_83 wrote:Hearing so many young people online (a seemingly endless tidal wave of them) for the past several years now parrot that type of absurdly arrogant ignorance on matters like sexual assault - and a whole HOST of other gravely important, life or death matters beyond that - purely because its something that exists within a realm that is outside of their normal purview... that has been a MASSIVELY recurring theme within pretty much the vast bulk of internet culture for some time now, and one that has leaked out very much into the real world (with absolutely devastating consequences for a great many people) and its left a lot of people who've spent every day for the past several years dealing with that fallout - including myself - at our wits end.
Personally, i blame some youtubers and radical leftists, they kept falsely accusing people for racist comments or sexual assaults so much, it become "Boy, who cried wolf". Rape, sexual assault and discrimination for skin color or race is terrible thing, and when they use this argument just because they dont like someone or want to gain attention, they are terrible human beings.
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Doctor. » Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:18 am

Kunzait_83 wrote:Rest assured though: sexual assault, of ANY degree or level, is the POLAR DIAMETRIC OPPOSITE of "petty nonsense".
I agree. But that's not what I said. This is why I said you're misrepresenting me. I said I don't consider this specific example, of this specific case with these specific people, to be a case of sexual assault. And that I couldn't understand why you, and others, would get this heated over an online discussion about something I consider almost to be a non-issue; it's an old man being creepy with young fans, definitely disturbing and inappropriate, but nothing more. I said the circumstances surrounding our discussion were petty nonsense, not sexual assault as a concept. As for my apathy, be it a serious issue or not, you should have the self-awareness to realize that discussing an issue on an online Dragon Ball forum won't make much difference. That's why I struggle to get invested anymore and can't understand the sheer amount of hatred, rage and disdain shared by both sides of the political spectrum when it comes to political discussions; the fate of the world doesn't hang in the balance, relax. An ignorant kid being ignorant online won't have real-world repercussions, and even if it did, you're not responsible for him. If you want to change the world, get into politics or activism, or else just treat people as people with political opinions and don't assume they automatically want the worst for other people's lives because they don't agree with your position. I wasn't offended, just baffled someone could get this heated.

Now, no, I've never had to deal with any sexual assault of any kind, fortunately. I've known people who have, and my sympathy goes out to them and anyone who has. But have I ever been subjected to women, older and younger, who get all too comfortable and close as soon as they meet you? Yes, some of my male friends too. My best friend has a girlfriend he loves dearly, yet a girl in one of his classes keeps hugging him, holding his arm and putting her head on his shoulder against his will, but he takes it as nothing more than a minor nuisance. I've given, and received, unsolicited kisses on the cheek and hugs to female friends. Now, I realize the difference; there's no dynamic of power in the first example as there is with Vic and his fans, and the second example is an entirely different level of intimacy at play. But I'm not providing these examples to say "these women need to grow thicker skin" as you're implying; everyone deals with flirting, or a show of platonic affection, or what have you, differently, and if these women felt uncomfortable, then I understand. I've also felt uncomfortable when some women have hit on me. But this is also to say that sometimes there's no maliciousness, if you can put yourself on the other person's shoes and understand where they're coming from, an urge or want to get close to someone else doesn't necessarily mean they want that person to be uncomfortable, even if it can lead to that as a side-effect. Owing to the age difference between Vic and his fans, I admit I was too callous in saying he deserved nothing more than a slap on the wrist, but ostracizing him as a borderline rapist is crossing the line when these interactions should, in theory, leave no long-lasting emotional trauma; even some of my progressive female friends recall experiences with touchy and creepy men as nothing more than an awkward nuisance, perhaps terrifying in the moment, but not enough to seriously affect their psyche from that moment onward.

Now this will truly be my last post on the subject. If you want to keep the discussion going, my PMs are open but I doubt you'll change my mind when it comes to a difference of perception.

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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by VegettoEX » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:32 am

I've already stated that I wish I left additional commentary in that initial post, and I've also already stated it was important to get that initial standpoint in while the thread was still new. It's known and documented how these things go when a clear position isn't made. Also, still stand by what I said there (that's coming up again soon here).

As disturbing as a lot of Doctor.'s commentary is, and how consistent it is with their previous posts on similar subject matter in the past, at least they're making the tiniest effort to show some amount of understanding, empathy, and understanding, and to engage on SOME kind of level above "nuh uh prove it". But this?
LordCrumb wrote:I must have missed it, has he been charged with a crime?
The dude doesn't need you in the cheerleader squad right now. This is on page 1 in the "Why Sexual Assault Victims Don't Report 101" textbook. Bad people do bad things to other people before and independent of if they're ever "charged with a crime". And hey, that brings us right back around to:
VegettoEX wrote:I don't even know where to begin here, so let's at least just say you've disqualified yourselves from further comment on the issue. Not interested in the least what else you might have to say, or that of anyone else who wants to chime in with similar comments.
We're not here to pay the bills out of our own pocket each month to be a sexual assault denier community. You're allowed to be all "holy shit" at this. You're totally allowed to be disappointed in Vic. You're totally allowed to feel confused and angry. You're allowed to feel conflicted. You're allowed to be angry. You're allowed to ask questions. That's expected and normal. We can chat that stuff out.

You want to show a blank, callous, total lack of empathy in any way? Go do it elsewhere, and continue telling your friends that Kanzenshuu wasn't the place for you.
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by SaintEvolution » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:36 am

Kataphrut wrote:I don't understand how anyone could say there's room for doubt over the Pridemore/Haberkorn story, that's about as cut and dry as it gets in my opinion. She shared an account of sexual assault (a horrifying story she was brave as hell to come out about I might add), didn't name or ask the perpetrator to be named, and then once people started confirming it, Haberkorn jumped on it by providing a lengthy, detailed version of his own story. It should be obvious from that behaviour alone that he was panicked and trying to run damage control. The only real difference in the stories is that he alleged it was consensual, she alleged it wasn't. At that point it's he said-she said but with a huge dosage of Occam's Razor- ie why would she reveal this deeply personal information if it wasn't true, and why would he respond the way he did if he wasn't aware on some level that he was guilty?

Anyway, you also have a third person who was there weighed in, Adam Sheehan, who confirmed that he was there, he saw she was being given too much to drink, she couldn't consent and nobody stopped her leaving with Haberkorn. So now you have a third-party eye-witness testimony. That's about as close to hard evidence as you're gonna fucking get in these situations short of catching it happen on film. Which, incidentally is always what the bad actors who say "lol where's the evidence" are demanding because they know it's infeasible to expect that sort of evidence to exist for every situation.

You can apply that to any situation in which a person makes a public accusation of sexual harassment/assault against a powerful figure. It's airing personal, often shameful details in public and they nearly always end up a target as a result, so they have nothing to gain by lying. That's why it's so important to believe women, and to believe victims. Refusing to do so enables a toxic culture of silence, and it doesn't make you more "logical". It makes you naive at best.
Raping accusations can ruin entire careers on nowdays, even if they are true or not. It's perfectly natural to be on panic when someone accuses you of something like that.
Not saying he is inocent, because he being guilty is still a possibility too, but we cannot say with what we have until now with conviction that he is guilty.

Seriously, this is not Twitter. Victim's word is not the final word, the justice to be done needs more than just words, it needs real proofs. We should be more skeptical in situations like this one.
coola wrote:
Kunzait_83 wrote:Hearing so many young people online (a seemingly endless tidal wave of them) for the past several years now parrot that type of absurdly arrogant ignorance on matters like sexual assault - and a whole HOST of other gravely important, life or death matters beyond that - purely because its something that exists within a realm that is outside of their normal purview... that has been a MASSIVELY recurring theme within pretty much the vast bulk of internet culture for some time now, and one that has leaked out very much into the real world (with absolutely devastating consequences for a great many people) and its left a lot of people who've spent every day for the past several years dealing with that fallout - including myself - at our wits end.
Personally, i blame some youtubers and radical leftists, they kept falsely accusing people for racist comments or sexual assaults so much, it become "Boy, who cried wolf". Rape, sexual assault and discrimination for skin color or race is terrible thing, and when they use this argument just because they dont like someone or want to gain attention, they are terrible human beings.
Great commentary. That's the real reason.

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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:55 am

SaintEvolution wrote:
Kataphrut wrote:I don't understand how anyone could say there's room for doubt over the Pridemore/Haberkorn story, that's about as cut and dry as it gets in my opinion. She shared an account of sexual assault (a horrifying story she was brave as hell to come out about I might add), didn't name or ask the perpetrator to be named, and then once people started confirming it, Haberkorn jumped on it by providing a lengthy, detailed version of his own story. It should be obvious from that behaviour alone that he was panicked and trying to run damage control. The only real difference in the stories is that he alleged it was consensual, she alleged it wasn't. At that point it's he said-she said but with a huge dosage of Occam's Razor- ie why would she reveal this deeply personal information if it wasn't true, and why would he respond the way he did if he wasn't aware on some level that he was guilty?

Anyway, you also have a third person who was there weighed in, Adam Sheehan, who confirmed that he was there, he saw she was being given too much to drink, she couldn't consent and nobody stopped her leaving with Haberkorn. So now you have a third-party eye-witness testimony. That's about as close to hard evidence as you're gonna fucking get in these situations short of catching it happen on film. Which, incidentally is always what the bad actors who say "lol where's the evidence" are demanding because they know it's infeasible to expect that sort of evidence to exist for every situation.

You can apply that to any situation in which a person makes a public accusation of sexual harassment/assault against a powerful figure. It's airing personal, often shameful details in public and they nearly always end up a target as a result, so they have nothing to gain by lying. That's why it's so important to believe women, and to believe victims. Refusing to do so enables a toxic culture of silence, and it doesn't make you more "logical". It makes you naive at best.
Raping accusations can ruin entire careers on nowdays, even if they are true or not. It's perfectly natural to be on panic when someone accuses you of something like that.
Not saying he is inocent, because he being guilty is still a possibility too, but we cannot say with what we have until now with conviction that he is guilty.

Seriously, this is not Twitter. Victim's word is not the final word, the justice to be done needs more than just words, it needs real proofs. We should be more skeptical in situations like this one.
coola wrote:
Kunzait_83 wrote:Hearing so many young people online (a seemingly endless tidal wave of them) for the past several years now parrot that type of absurdly arrogant ignorance on matters like sexual assault - and a whole HOST of other gravely important, life or death matters beyond that - purely because its something that exists within a realm that is outside of their normal purview... that has been a MASSIVELY recurring theme within pretty much the vast bulk of internet culture for some time now, and one that has leaked out very much into the real world (with absolutely devastating consequences for a great many people) and its left a lot of people who've spent every day for the past several years dealing with that fallout - including myself - at our wits end.
Personally, i blame some youtubers and radical leftists, they kept falsely accusing people for racist comments or sexual assaults so much, it become "Boy, who cried wolf". Rape, sexual assault and discrimination for skin color or race is terrible thing, and when they use this argument just because they dont like someone or want to gain attention, they are terrible human beings.
Great commentary. That's the real reason.

Yes. All these people coming forward are just lying I’m sure. Did you even read the article?

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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by DSB » Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:00 am

VegettoEX wrote: We're not here to pay the bills out of our own pocket each month to be a sexual assault denier community. You're allowed to be all "holy shit" at this. You're totally allowed to be disappointed in Vic. You're totally allowed to feel confused and angry. You're allowed to feel conflicted. You're allowed to be angry. You're allowed to ask questions. That's expected and normal. We can chat that stuff out.

You want to show a blank, callous, total lack of empathy in any way? Go do it elsewhere, and continue telling your friends that Kanzenshuu wasn't the place for you.

So essentially:

"I pay for this site and this community is mine. So either do as i say or leave."

Did i get it right?

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