Vic Mignogna

[Cursed Lemon]

You are almost certainly lumping in a specific subset of "the left" with a MUCH broader whole of it. There is a MASSIVE world of difference between actual, serious left wing policy advocates and comfortable, largely well-off Neoliberals who are basically soft-right overall (fairly hard right on economics, soft to moderate left on social issues).

There is a difference in principle. Among the actual Democrat-voting demographic and who they choose to support or what they choose to spin? That line is fuzzy. Whether it be a cataclysmic knee-jerking from Donald Trump being elected or the regrettably obvious bias in that some people are mad they didn't get to see a woman be President (or both), there's been a lot of sanitizing going on as far as Hillary's reputation; "I'm With Her" is still very much alive, and it's not her Wall Street floozies that have been driving it, but most of the mainstream leftist spaces on the internet.

[Kunzait_83]

There is a difference in principle. Among the actual Democrat-voting demographic and who they choose to support or what they choose to spin? That line is fuzzy. Whether it be a cataclysmic knee-jerking from Donald Trump being elected or the regrettably obvious bias in that some people are mad they didn't get to see a woman be President (or both), there's been a lot of sanitizing going on as far as Hillary's reputation; "I'm With Her" is still very much alive, and it's not her Wall Street floozies that have been driving it, but most of the mainstream leftist spaces on the internet.

Obviously "I'm With Her" is still somehow, remarkably, delusionally still a thing that keeps on going: but I'm not 100% convinced that the so-called "mainstream leftist spaces on the internet" who traffic in it are necessarily one and the same as "the mainstream" overall, more broadly speaking in real life. I think that the internet has a way in many instances of HEAVILY skewing certain things in such a way that don't always 100% line up 1 to 1 with reality in the outside, non-online world.

There's definitely a LOT of I'm With Her-ism that's VERY much unnaturally manufactured, not only by the Clinton machine itself, but also by a LOT of mainstream cable news (that isn't on the Fox News or One America spectrum at least) that is VERY heavily Corporatist in its politics and HAS been for decades and decades and decades now. Yes there are "regular people" who also believe this crap and who get suckered by the Clintonist bullshit: but I don't think its entirely coincidental that in a LOT of cases it overall tends to be people who are still middle to upper middle class enough where actual, real world problems have generally not affected them any.

Among the MASSES of people though who's lives are (with NO exaggeration whatsoever) a smoldering rubble due to decades and decades and decades of both far right Neoconservative Reagan and Bush policies and soft right Neoliberal Clinton and Obama policies? There's NOT a whole lot of Clinton love there. Not a whole lot at all. For VERY easy to see and easy to understand reasons. And that subset of America is NOT a small or dismissable one. Not even remotely.

[JulieYBM]

I think there's a big problem in terms of how we discuss these things due to the overwhelming general misunderstanding of labels. A 'Democratic voter' does not necessarily mean one is left-wing, just as a 'Grand Old Party voter' does not necessarily make one right-wing. When you go down the list of policies in the polls the Americans are decidedly left-wing (or on an international scale, moderates). The thing that prevents the general populace--which is already burdened by their very low-quality living standards--is that the wealthy and the corporations have bought both major parties. Conservative elected officials know how to fight tooth-and-nail for their policies while the Center-Right Democratic Party is 99% bought to specifically be weak. When was the last time the Democrats had someone like T*ump, who can actually win in a heavyweight title match? Sanders is the closest we've gotten to and pretty much the only one with any chance of besting T*ump in 2020.

[AgitoZ]

So, out of curiosity, I decided to look at the GoFundMe that this Rekieta guy is doing to try and help Vic (I'm not linking to it so as to avoid spreading it around further myself), and, for all of the talk the guy claims about 'support', it's taken roughly a month to get barely a little over half of the amount he's seeking ($200,000).

That's...I mean, don't get me wrong, that's pretty depressing that that many people have that much money to waste instead of putting it to a good cause, but that's still not exactly stellar. I mean, compare it to the Critical Role (a group of voice actors who play D&D - I don't follow it much myself but it's proven pretty popular overall) kickstarter to get an animated series made off of the story of their D&D campaign, which just started earlier this month, and is already at 7.9 MILLION dollars (and getting really close to 8 million) of it's originally $750,000 goal, and STILL has a whole 24 days to go before it closes? Yeah, it's...not as supported as the guy seems to think it is.

The original goal was $100,000. You can read the latest update where it's explained that he raised the goal to $200,000 recently.

[Kunzait_83]

I think there's a big problem in terms of how we discuss these things due to the overwhelming general misunderstanding of labels.

A LARGE chunk of that comes down to so many average people being not just policy-illiterate (since mainstream political news has largely been policy-averse since at least the 1980s and become more and more reminiscent of tabloid reality TV to ever increasing degrees throughout the past 30+ years), but also lacking just about ANY historical context to even very RECENT events (there has literally been since the late Obama and early-Trump era a generation of young people who genuinely have ZERO idea of literally ANYTHING that happened politically during the fucking George W. Bush years, up to and including why 9/11 happened and what kind of political and societal fallout it directly resulted in), and moreover simply taking a LOT of what they "know" about politics purely from dinner table conversations with their families: who in many cases solely watch the same vapid, substance-free Cable News TV shows as millions of other people.

Getting people to actually sit the fuck down and do some ACTUAL serious reading on this stuff and learn not only what important political terms actually mean but also the often crucial historical context behind them: that in itself would make almost ALL the difference in the fucking world.

Ignorance and lack of education and intellectual curiosity is a LOT of what's at play here and how so many seemingly average people are left so vulnerable and susceptible to being so easily gaslit and conned by even some of the most transparently obvious grifters and scam artists in the modern day media sphere: a media sphere which has increasingly become more and more of a blatant Verhoeven-esque Corporate Dystopia just within my lifetime alone.

Just HAVING so much information freely available in one gigantic, disorganized glop of a pile online in and of itself clearly isn't NEARLY enough: what most people are fundamentally lacking is ANY kind of historical context and framework in which to parse and digest any of this information properly, as well as simple effective street smarts and an ability to effectively gauge and read other people that they encounter.

And on BOTH of those crucial counts, what you need is 1) a solidly robust basic education and 2) genuine experience being out in the real world and dealing not just with actual flesh and blood people broadly, but particularly dealing with flesh and blood people in a VASTLY DIVERSE array of areas and walks of life that can give you a MUCH more accurate picture of what the broader swath of society and the world is like.

And both of those are in DIRE short supply when we have A) an increasingly gutted and hollowed-out education system with ever declining standards (unless you're rich) and B) a gigantic swath of millennials who have been raised and conditioned by their lifestyles growing up into basically acting almost like agoraphobic shut-ins who rarely ever leave their Otaku manchild caves and do nothing all day except play video games, watch garbage cartoons and kids' movies, and interact with the world almost ENTIRELY through a fucking computer monitor or tablet window and talk almost exclusively to other emotionally-stunted shut-ins like themselves as well as getting suckered in by all sorts of wannabe cult-leaders and conmen talking heads on Youtube, creating a veritable echo-chamber of mind-poisoning derangement and intellectual self-harm for themselves.

[Polyphase Avatron]

That pic is TOO KIND. It implies Kamehacon will survive this and return stronger than ever. Also I really hope NO Japanese, Canadian or Latin American actors will show up. They could be attacked just for showing up.

Assuming you mean 'attacked' in an online sense, I don't know if I'd worry too much about that. The issues with Vic are a pretty heated topic in the US Dragon Ball fandom at the moment, but I don't know that it's that well known in other countries at the moment, all things considered. I'd wager a bet that it's not (though Canada's the most likely to know about it out of the three).

If you mean 'attacked' in a real world sense, I don't think they'd be the most likely to have any issues at the con, but overall I am getting pretty concerned that something really nasty could end up coming out of this con, whether it's violence done or attempted towards anyone else in the 'name' of Vic, or even something done to Vic himself - which, regardless of how strongly one feels he's guilty, would be a bad, BAD idea that would only make everything FAR, FAR worse. So, for the love of Kami, let's hope nothing insanely bad goes down on either side of the argument at this con.

I saw a comment on Geekdom101's video saying 'I hope Monica Rial gets beat up at Kamehacon'

[Shaddy]

My heart will shatter if people like Masako Nozawa, Mario Castañeda and or the Ocean cast go to the con only to get told they are rape apologists.

Well you shouldn't have to worry about that, as far as we can say for sure nobody has been raped. If someone says that, they're as uneducated about the situation as Vic's own supporters.

I've seen exactly one accusation of attempted statutory rape from something like 1989? But I haven't seen a lot of follow up to that. Not that I don't think it's likely, but it's not as solid when compared to the things we have actual photos and consistent testimony from over the past decade.

[Akamay]

How would you respond to 'both sides' are unreasonable?

Judging by how far things went, this is probably the best approach to this whole mess.
While people in favor of Vic are being quite a bunch of a-holes, people against Vic did fabricate evidence here and there.

I'm not gonna condone someone for believing someone else's story, but when you show up saying that you got swatted and people find that the pictures are the exact same ones when something completely unrelated had happened previously, you're the problem in this whole conversation.

At the same time, if you're getting accused of harassing people, it'd just be better to not go to any conventions for a while until the things calm down, regardless if you're guilty or not. If you're not guilty, you should at least not cause any trouble for other people until the whole case is properly dealt with.

People in general do not know the whole story, so making any assumptions at this point will not help. This reminds me of that case of a man being denied from boarding a plane, people revolting at the airport in his support only for it later to be revealed that the guy was a known criminal.

[Fionordequester]

While people in favor of Vic are being quite a bunch of a-holes, people against Vic did fabricate evidence here and there.

I'm not gonna condone someone for believing someone else's story, but when you show up saying that you got swatted and people find that the pictures are the exact same ones when something completely unrelated had happened previously, you're the problem in this whole conversation.

Well, the SWATing debacle was absolutely an underhanded, disgusting tactic.

But you know the "people suggested photoshopping Vic pics" thing was fake, right? I can link you to the proof, if you wish.

[Akamay]

But you know the "people suggested photoshopping Vic pics" thing was fake, right? I can link you to the proof, if you wish.

Nah, I believe you. I've seen enough stuff from both sides to believe that people would do it.
At this point it's just a bunch of people poking a hornet's nest. It's dumb, it's pointless and in the end people will get hurt for no real reason.
If stuff happened it will come up, if it didn't it will not.

People are so desperate to be right nowadays that they think fabricating evidence is actually ok. It is just pathetic and disgusting, not to mention it hurts the credibility of your side.

I wouldn't doubt that some people would try to fabricate evidence for the side they are against just to make other people look bad. I wouldn't doubt that people would actually do it for real.
I've been online for a while, I've seen how stupid people can be.

[Cursed Lemon]

The SWAT'ing thing was utterly ridiculous and the brainchild of someone who needs to get their shit together, however it ultimately had zero to do with the accusations surrounding Vic, which is supposed to be the thing that everyone is paying attention to.

[Akamay]

The SWAT'ing thing was utterly ridiculous and the brainchild of someone who needs to get their shit together, however it ultimately had zero to do with the accusations surrounding Vic, which is supposed to be the thing that everyone is paying attention to.

But people are not.
Most of what you see about this whole controversy is just people attacking the backgrounds of people from the other side.
"People defending Vic should be arrested, look, they doxxed me!"
"People attacking Vic are liars, look at this!"

It would be helpful for people to actually just get to the core of the issue instead of creating all these side distractions.

SWJs, Incels and anything else not related to this should not be involved in this case at all. Yet, here we are.

[Fionordequester]

Regardless, it's still important to note, so that we know how to respond to anyone who brings that up against #KickVic.

If nothing else, it'll help assure guys like PatrolMan & Sccigs that there are at least some things we can agree on; dispel the rumor that #KickVic are nothing but a bunch of vindictive bullies.

[Cursed Lemon]

My point is that the difference between the "two sides" here is - as it is with the political landscape in the U.S. - one in which there are hysterics in either barracks, but it's the cause that they represent that shows that they're not the same, because only one side of this debate thinks that the testimony of dozens of women and girls is worthless.

[Kunzait_83]

It would be helpful for people to actually just get to the core of the issue instead of creating all these side distractions.

Here's the core of the issue itself then (for the umpteenth fucking time):

1) Vic has a long, long list of women accusing him of sexual misconduct. This list extends back to the late 1980s, WELL long before he was even the pseudo non-celebrity he is today.

2) The vast overwhelming majority of the women who've accused Mignogna have ZERO connection or ties to one another.

3) There is a mountain of photographic evidence of Vic being, at a bare minimum, highly inappropriately handsy and grabby with many of his young female fans (the overwhelming majority if not entirety of which is 100% real).

4) Vic's conduct has been a well known, open secret among Convention Staff behind the scenes, and there are people everywhere from other FUNimation employees to even certain members of Team Four Star (who I wish would speak out in this thread and put some of this asinine nonsense to bed once and for all) who have had direct experience in dealing with the behind the scenes sweeping aside of incidents with Vic being inappropriately sexual with young female (and often underage) convention goers.

5) Everything about this situation fits in lockstep with similar patterns involving TONS of other sexual assault scandals, where a predator is allowed by his employers to get away with inappropriate sexual behavior in the workplace for years, sometimes decades, because they're otherwise good for business and the people at the top would rather not rock the boat, not to mention with sexual assault victims holding back their accusations until a LOT of other victims also come out at once, because society has a LONG history of disbelieving and shaming rape and sexual harassment victims.

6) In order for Vic to NOT be guilty, ALL of these accusers, who again go back nearly 30 years ago and have NO connection with one another, would ALL have to be simultaneously lying and ALL have to be working (to one degree or another) in tandem with one another to try and smear this guy. And IF that were indeed the case: to what end? What POSSIBLE motive would there be for dozens upon dozens upon dozens of different women going back 30 years now to all collectively conspire in this long scheme to destroy the reputation of a Z-list nobody of a children's cartoon voice actor who is only a big deal to maybe a few thousand people, at best?

7) Unfortunately, unless there is clear video recordings or DNA evidence, it is almost IMPOSSIBLE (or at a bare minimum INSANELY difficult) to legally prosecute someone on sex crimes (major or minor), regardless of the above overwhelming evidence against them. This has LONG been a VERY serious hurdle in the policing and prevention of sex crimes in general going back decades and decades and decades now. Sadly, this means that a LOT of people in the culture who are predisposed to disbelieve rape and sexual assault victims - and this has sadly long historically been a LOT of people all throughout the world in general - will use the lack of criminal charges as "further evidence" to support the accused party being innocent.

8 ) We are currently living in a VERY politically volatile time in general, but particularly in geek media spaces where a whole segment of young men in anime, video game, and comic book fandoms have been being almost systematically indoctrinated politically into supporting far right reactionary political and social views, including the idea that racism and sexism are long-settled issues that are no longer a real problem, and that anyone today who makes claims of having been discriminated against due to race or gender or whatnot - or even any woman who claims to have been raped or sexually assaulted - is inherently lying and making things up in order to get something for themselves (usually at the direct expense of white men).

Thus, you have more people in a space like DB fandom (a fandom that, since the late 90s/early 2000s anyway, was hardly known for having the most well-informed and well-educated fanbase in the world on serious social issues to begin with) than ever before who've been methodically primed now to instantly and immediately react with inherent negativity and open hostility against the accusers/victims in a scandal like this, actual facts and basic logic be damned. Combine that with Vic's personality cult-like fanbase in general (that a totally inconsequential non-celebrity like him even HAS such a fanbase is, in and of itself, fairly pathetic and sad), and you have the kind of warped, twisted scenario that we're facing right now.

A scenario where a guy has been more than credibly outed as being sexually predatory toward young, underage girls at the fan conventions he makes a decent part of his living attending, and COUNTLESS young guys who are total and complete abject STRANGERS to this man and who should have ZERO fucking sensible reason to doubt the word of THIS MANY different and totally disparate accusers, will go on the warpath to defend and lionize this guy and see to it even that he be reinstated at these conventions and act as a potential sexual threat to countless young girls attending.

All because: A) he voiced a cartoon bad guy that they liked when they were 6 and B) because some idiot fuckmooks on Youtube and 4chan have spent the better part of the last 7 years (give or take) convincing them that because some feminists said some nasty things about some video games they liked on the internet, it therefore follows that ALL minorities and women have ALL been lying about having been discriminated against for ALL THESE YEARS now (as part of some asinine elaborate scheme to make people feel guilty about the movies and video games and media that they enjoy because... reasons?), and that straight white guys are ACTUALLY the oppressed ones and are thus owed permission by society to be dominant over everyone else.

THIS is the core crux of the issue here. Most of the rest is bullshit white noise coming from online chucklefucks who are both 1) in DEEP denial about their "voice actor hero" and likely their own personal issues and ignorance with regards to sex and gender issues, and 2) who usually also have a political agenda of their own to grind that they're using this Vic situation as an opportunity to further push: an agenda that they've likely been talked into supporting blindly by any number of various online extremists who have been specifically zeroing in on and targeting online nerd media communities for the better part of the last decade now.

[MozillaVulpix]

I've been lurking this thread like probably many others, and I wanted to say something honestly - the situation is actually kind of scaring me with how much people have been whipped into a frenzy. While I've seen some examples that some of the twitter trolls aren't even fans of Dragon Ball at all, I don't know if I've ever seen a situation where the fanbase has become so hostile and dangerous. It seems almost impossible to have some sense of reason when 10 other YouTube channel are peddling their conspiracy theories every time a woman so much as coughs. Or a man, in Geekdom's case.

I don't know how we can deflate the tension, and I'm concerned about the fanbase in general.

[Kunzait_83]

I've been lurking this thread like probably many others, and I wanted to say something honestly - the situation is actually kind of scaring me with how much people have been whipped into a frenzy. While I've seen some examples that some of the twitter trolls aren't even fans of Dragon Ball at all, I don't know if I've ever seen a situation where the fanbase has become so hostile and dangerous. It seems almost impossible to have some sense of reason when 10 other YouTube channel are peddling their conspiracy theories every time a woman so much as coughs. Or a man, in Geekdom's case.

I don't know how we can deflate the tension, and I'm concerned about the fanbase in general.

Not to be an asshole about this but: Wakey Wakey, Eggs and Bakey. This open culture-wide polarization and hostility has BEEN going on for YEARS AND YEARS now. If it took you THIS LONG and it took its direct and overt impacting of the fucking Dragon Ball fanbase (of all things) in order for you to have realized the sheer severity, magnitude, and scope of the political, economic, and societal freefall that we've been in (worldwide) for decades now (which is ultimately the root of what's behind this type of shit): then once more, see everything I've been saying the past few pages about "The Bubble".

[Blondiebear_17]

I am confused about how this is good for the convention that he is coming? The convention did fine last year without Vic Mignogna so why exactly is it so important to have him this year? Yeah he might sell a lot of autographs and what not but what cut if any of that does the convention get out of it? Was it worth ruining the conventions reputation over all this nonsense? I don't recall there being much noise when they cancelled Vic initially since they obviously weren't the only ones to do it.

[MozillaVulpix]

Not to be an asshole about this but: Wakey Wakey, Eggs and Bakey. This open culture-wide polarization and hostility has BEEN going on for YEARS AND YEARS now. If it took you THIS LONG and it took its direct and overt impacting of the fucking Dragon Ball fanbase (of all things) in order for you to have realized the sheer severity, magnitude, and scope of the political, economic, and societal freefall that we've been in (worldwide) for decades now (which is ultimately the root of what's behind this type of shit): then once more, see everything I've been saying the past few pages about "The Bubble".

I mean, you are being a bit of an asshole about it, because I'm definitely aware of the "culture war" in the other aspects. After Charlottesville and especially Christchurch, it's naive to even think that memes are just memes and nobody could get hurt from it. In my mind, I was waiting to see when a situation like this would cause the DB fandom to take tribalistic sides. I just didn't realise how bad it would get.

[Kunzait_83]

I mean, you are being a bit of an asshole about it, because I'm definitely aware of the "culture war" in the other aspects. After Charlottesville and especially Christchurch, it's naive to even think that memes are just memes and nobody could get hurt from it. In my mind, I was waiting to see when a situation like this would cause the DB fandom to take tribalistic sides. I just didn't realise how bad it would get.

Yeah, I admit I'm being a bit of a dick here, and normally I wouldn't be: it just so happens that this Vic thing is an outgrowth of a much broader ongoing societal situation where it kinda matters a LOT for as many people as possible to stay as educated and informed as possible about what's what at all times: because people's lives are sometimes LITERALLY at stake. And this community, overall broadly speaking, has a VERY long history now of being blissfully, downright infuriatingly naive and ignorant about important shit going on in the real world: so it isn't anything personal, I can assure you.

And in all honesty, this Vic situation here frankly HASN'T gotten NEARLY as bad as it could've, at least not yet. As the events that you just listed clearly demonstrate, there is still PLENTY of room for this Vic thing to go even WAY further out of control. And hopefully it doesn't come NEARLY close to anything like that and escalates no further past the point where its at now.

In the grand scheme of Redpill shit that's gone down online, this Vic thing as it currently stands is still fairly low-level and relatively benign in comparison to tons of other events that have unfolded just in the past few years alone. As horrible, yet sadly merited, as this is to use as a metric at this point: no one's actually died over any of this yet. And again, hopefully it remains that way, and this stays purely at the level of just "heated online bitchfest between sad dorks" that its been at up till now.