Vic Mignogna

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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Cursed Lemon » Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:02 pm

AgitoZ wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:39 pm

In what world is reporting him to police condoning unsupported police reports? The police are gonna conduct their own investigation. A judge isn't gonna blindly believe what I say and gave him life in prison cause of me. I'm really gonna stop replying to you. You are the biggest chore in this thread.
What the fuck.

There's no evidence. It is, from your point of view, unsupported.

Why in the living hell do you think a lot of sexual assault victims don't go to the police? Because it's going to be a whole legal drama and stress drummed up with no repercussions for the aggressor but likely an avalanche of blowback for the accuser.

Are you this disingenuous or can you really not follow a narrative thread?
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Shaddy » Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:03 pm

AgitoZ wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:58 pm
Why does it have to be only those two that you mentioned?
Let me ask you again, since it seems like you missed it before:

What

do

you

actually

believe

?

Because there is no doubts that the allegations have been made. Are they true or not? If not, what is the explanation other than "they lied to attack him!"?
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:09 pm

AgitoZ wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:58 pm
Why does it have to be only those two that you mentioned?
What other possibilities could there be? I can't think of any, so unless you can, your position is illogical.
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Captain Awesome » Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:11 pm

AgitoZ wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:58 pm
I have no idea what you mean that I "went though to stop short of a conspiracy" please enlighten me.
If you don't believe dozens of complaints then the only reasonable alternative is that you believe they were made with a collateral purpose in mind. A shared collateral purpose i.e a conspiracy.
AgitoZ wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:58 pm
And you'll have to excuse me if I don't know what you mean by "bringing an action in civil conspiracy." Civil conspiracy is just one of the 5 initial claims found in the initial pleadings. Is that what you're talking about? The claims in the lawsuit so far?
Imagine you're making your case to the judge, you're going after people for making defamatory statements, interfering with your employment but on the backdrop of dozens of other statements many of which were made by people who are not parties in the dispute. How do you reconcile the statements in context of other people independently making similar claims?

They're all in on it together.
AgitoZ wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:58 pm
I have not said nor implied that it must be some other kind of conspiracy between voice actors or something. Again, you're the one jumping to conclusions not me. If you think that because I don't believe Rial or whoever without tangible proof and therefore I think she's part in some conspiracy with all these women, that's your problem not mine.
I admit I did make the mistake of thinking your thought process went far enough to consider what kind of rational basis you can refute dozens of independent complaints.
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:52 pm
What other options could there be?
AgitoZ wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:58 pm
Why does it have to be only those two that you mentioned?
This is bad faith. This is why you're the worst.

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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by AgitoZ » Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:19 pm

excelhedge wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:01 pm
https://www.google.com/amp/s/variety.co ... 93225/amp/

Reading this court document I kinda find it hard to believe any Monica says when it's on record at Funimation that filed a complaint against Vic over a Joke involving Vic eating a Jelly bean at a convention panel.
Now, I may be misreading the initial pleadings, but it's alleged that the investigation was by Sony and that they looked into that incident and three others. Things might be different than what is out there. However, in the interrogatories they ask for the results of the investigation which should hopefully clear things up.

Shaddy wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:03 pm
Let me ask you again, since it seems like you missed it before:

What

do

you

actually

believe

?

Because there is no doubts that the allegations have been made. Are they true or not? If not, what is the explanation other than "they lied to attack him!"?
Allegations have been made. Are they true? So far I see no evidence to support them. Saying they are false is too absolute for me as there could always be evidence that helps support them that pops up. Monica Rial alleges on her Twitter that the truth will come out. So I think I should wait and see. But since so far I don't think there is enough evidence either way I'm gonna default to my innocent until proven guilty stance.

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:09 pm
What other possibilities could there be? I can't think of any, so unless you can, your position is illogical.
I disagree Mr. Spock.

Captain Awesome wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:11 pm
If you don't believe dozens of complaints then the only reasonable alternative is that you believe they were made with a collateral purpose in mind. A shared collateral purpose i.e a conspiracy.
Maybe to you but not to me.
Captain Awesome wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:11 pm
Imagine you're making your case to the judge, you're going after people for making defamatory statements, interfering with your employment but on the backdrop of dozens of other statements many of which were made by people who are not parties in the dispute. How do you reconcile the statements in context of other people independently making similar claims?

They're all in on it together.
Sure, and that seems to be what Mignogna's legal team is alleging. But it's still just that to me, allegations. I still need that pesky proof.
Captain Awesome wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:11 pm
I admit I did make the mistake of thinking your thought process went far enough to consider what kind of rational basis you can refute dozens of independent complaints.
Something needs to be proven before I refute. Anything introduced without evidence I can dismiss without it as well.
Captain Awesome wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:11 pm
This is bad faith. This is why you're the worst.
You're gonna really dislike my reply to him.
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:42 pm

So let me get this straight: You demand 'proof' that Vic is guilty, when the only other alternative is a conspiracy which you are not demanding any 'proof' for. You get around this by attempting to reject the conspiracy theory, but that just makes you claim entirely incoherent.

If Vic did NOT sexually harass anyone, and Vic's accusers are NOT lying, then what is the alternative?

Is there a shapeshifter on the loose who transformed into Vic and groped people?

Did Dr. Gero build a Vic Mignogna android?

Was Vic possessed by Satan/Aliens/Zamasu when he did these things?

Name one logical explanation that serves as a believable alternative to the two options of Vic being a creep or his accusers conspiring against him. Because until you do, you've got nothing.
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by jjgp1112 » Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:49 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:42 pm
So let me get this straight: You demand 'proof' that Vic is guilty, when the only other alternative is a conspiracy which you are not demanding any 'proof' for. You get around this by attempting to reject the conspiracy theory, but that just makes you claim entirely incoherent.

If Vic did NOT sexually harass anyone, and Vic's accusers are NOT lying, then what is the alternative?

Is there a shapeshifter on the loose who transformed into Vic and groped people?

Did Dr. Gero build a Vic Mignogna android?

Was Vic possessed by Satan/Aliens/Zamasu when he did these things?

Name one logical explanation that serves as a believable alternative to the two options of Vic being a creep or his accusers conspiring against him. Because until you do, you've got nothing.
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Fionordequester » Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:50 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:42 pm
If Vic did NOT sexually harass anyone, and Vic's accusers are NOT lying, then what is the alternative?

Is there a shapeshifter on the loose who transformed into Vic and groped people?

Did Dr. Gero build a Vic Mignogna android?

Was Vic possessed by Satan/Aliens/Zamasu when he did these things?
You know... We keep SAYING that Dr. Gero, Aliens, or Zamasu are only fictional characters, but... has anyone ever been able to prove that? I think we need to withhold judgment on that, until all the facts come out.

...

Seriously though, what you're exhibiting here, AgitoZ, is the "Problem of Verificationism". I think it's a fairly new phenomenon in Psychology, but... Here's a quick link to it being discussed, if you're interested.

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussi ... st-fallacy

TDLR, Verificationism is an inherently self-contradictory position. Even the folks who are absolute on "Verificationist" philosophy are using unscientific biases and feelings in deciding that Verificationism is the best way of approaching life. After all, there is no PROOF that Verificationism is any healthier than, say, Post-Modernism, so why would it have any adherents?

Answer: You're biased, whether you realize it or not.
Last edited by Fionordequester on Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Shaddy » Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:54 pm

AgitoZ wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:19 pm
Saying they are false is too absolute for me as there could always be evidence that helps support them that pops up. Monica Rial alleges on her Twitter that the truth will come out. So I think I should wait and see. But since so far I don't think there is enough evidence either way I'm gonna default to my innocent until proven guilty stance.
If you're so dedicated to playing the skeptic, what makes your skepticism so constantly in Vic's favor? If "wait and see" is your philosophy then why does that not condemn the people who DO believe it's all a conspiracy?

You're on record saying you don't care about Vic or dubs in general, so what makes you so quick to doubt the words of dozens of unrelated women that one dude acted creepy to them all in similar ways at different times? Do you view all things like this? I know you don't, because I haven't seen you say this about the people on his side. So what makes that difference? And again, in the hypothetical situation where your skepticism is justified, why do you think the allegations happened?
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by AgitoZ » Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:08 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:42 pm
So let me get this straight: You demand 'proof' that Vic is guilty, when the only other alternative is a conspiracy which you are not demanding any 'proof' for. You get around this by attempting to reject the conspiracy theory, but that just makes you claim entirely incoherent.

If Vic did NOT sexually harass anyone, and Vic's accusers are NOT lying, then what is the alternative?
I'm not demanding 'proof' for conspiracy because I'm not the one alleging that. Everyone else seems to want me to say that I do but I don't. I don't see that as the "only" other alternative. As I have repeated time and time again, I am waiting for more evidence to reach a tangible conclusion beyond my basic belief of innocent until proven guilty.

There is a whole bunch of possibilities. Mignogna could have sexually harassed someone. I have yet to say it's impossible merely that so far I do not see any evidence to support that claim. Maybe parties involved misremembered things. Maybe the allegations have been embellished. Who knows, there could be more possibilities, there could be less. I would prefer to have more info before making any definitive claims about the whole situation.
Shaddy wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:54 pm
If you're so dedicated to playing the skeptic, what makes your skepticism so constantly in Vic's favor? If "wait and see" is your philosophy then why does that not condemn the people who DO believe it's all a conspiracy?
My skepticism is "constantly in Vic's favor" as you put it because much like the courts, he is innocent until proven guilty in my eyes. I also try not to throw his accusers under the bus as they all have the possibility of proving his guilt in some way. My philosophy in no way supports believers of the conspiracy. Why do I have to condemn them when I'm not the one bringing up conspiracy?
Shaddy wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:54 pm
You're on record saying you don't care about Vic or dubs in general, so what makes you so quick to doubt the words of dozens of unrelated women that one dude acted creepy to them all in similar ways at different times? Do you view all things like this? I know you don't, because I haven't seen you say this about the people on his side. So what makes that difference? And again, in the hypothetical situation where your skepticism is justified, why do you think the allegations happened?
My default stance is not to simply take people at their word for serious accusations. It's clear you don't know anything because like many others you have continually jumped to conclusions about me and the opinions I hold.

It's really getting old being expected to defend beliefs and opinions that are not my own. And also having to defend the actions or beliefs of people who are not me.
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Soppa Saia People » Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:19 pm

christ dude this is embarrassing.
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Shaddy » Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:37 pm

AgitoZ wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:08 pm
My skepticism is "constantly in Vic's favor" as you put it because much like the courts, he is innocent until proven guilty in my eyes. I also try not to throw his accusers under the bus as they all have the possibility of proving his guilt in some way. My philosophy in no way supports believers of the conspiracy. Why do I have to condemn them when I'm not the one bringing up conspiracy?

My default stance is not to simply take people at their word for serious accusations. It's clear you don't know anything because like many others you have continually jumped to conclusions about me and the opinions I hold.
Because "innocent until proven guilty" only applies to Vic, if your posts are anything to go by. Saying all these people are lying about being sexually assaulted is also a very serious accusation and you have done very little to distance yourself from the people pushing it. Just as how a hundred unrelated women don't lie about being sexually assaulted by the same dude for fifteen years, they also don't misremember him sexually assaulting them or embellish what he did do. Vic is now an accuser as well, and his claims are far, faaaaaaaar less substantiated than anything the kickvic side put out, but you've sat silent. I'm not hearing any "innocent until proven guilty" about them.

Also, again, this is a case that's notoriously difficult to prove definitively, but evidence beyond a reasonable doubt exists.

The reason I keep asking you "what do you actually believe?" is because you only defend Vic but claim that you're neutral, and seem jump on this "why are you making ME the bad guy?" while actively ignoring the evidence we have. If you were actually just "waiting and seeing", then that's what you'd be doing. There's 27 guests in the thread as I write this, and several users I'm pretty sure have never posted in this thread. That's what "wait and see" looks like to me, not "defend Vic but say you're neutral every time someone says you're defending Vic".
Last edited by Shaddy on Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Cursed Lemon » Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:39 pm

AgitoZ wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:08 pm
My skepticism is "constantly in Vic's favor" as you put it because much like the courts, he is innocent until proven guilty in my eyes. I also try not to throw his accusers under the bus as they all have the possibility of proving his guilt in some way. My philosophy in no way supports believers of the conspiracy. Why do I have to condemn them when I'm not the one bringing up conspiracy?
Because you take exception to Vic's firing and his canceled convention appearances.

Which are actions made without evidence but with strong consideration to testimony given by multiple sources.
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Gyt Kaliba » Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:47 pm

I know this point has already been drug back and forth throught he mud by some posters, but you know what? I agree with it entirely.
TheBlackPaladin wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:59 am
So here is something I'd like to invite everybody to consider: how do Vic's industry peers feel?

That, more than anything else, may be the most telling of his guilt or innocence. Those are the people who have worked with him and gone to conventions with him. They're the ones who have been in his general vicinity over the years where--and when--many of these incidents have been claimed to occur. Generally speaking, they're the ones who would have the best idea of what kind of person he is...so with that in mind...ask yourself how many of his fellow voice actors are coming to his defense. Ask yourself how many casting directors are coming to his defense. How many audio engineers. How many convention owners, staff members, and guest handlers. How often is he still being hired, and by whom.

I won't tell anybody what to think, as I believe that would undermine what I'm trying to say...but I would very strongly ask everybody here to consider how many--or few--of those in his industry who have worked with him are defending him, and what that suggests.
This is the chief thing that made me "switch sides" pretty early on. For years now, whenever these accusations against Vic would come up, I was on the side of 'that doesn't sound very likely', because it was always just random internet commenters accusing him. The accusations would come from sources that nobody could verify, and then they'd disappear almost as soon as they appeared. And at the time, they very much did seem (at least to me at the time) to come mostly from people who were upset that Vic didn't sign their yaoi or the like.

But then, this time, it didn't go away. It kept going. And it got to the point where we had multiple people who we know for a fact know Vic, and know him personally, were accusing him of improper behavior. And even Vic himself fully confirms that he cheated on his fiance. While that's nowhere near the same thing as sexual assault or harassment, it still doesn't exactly speak well of his integrity, and in fact only makes it easier for me to believe all of the accusations now.

And that's what boggles my mind so much about the disbelievers at this point, I think. I was on that side. Hell, for whatever it's worth, I still believe in 'innocent until proven guilty' as well, and I hate the way internet/public opinion mobs leap to the exact opposite extreme. But that's not what happened here, at all. In this case, it's done the exact opposite in my opinion, and I for the life of me can't see why anyone who considers themselves a decent person isn't at the very least erring on the side of caution of "Vic's probably not the great guy we all thought he was" if nothing else.
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by jjgp1112 » Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:54 pm

Gyt Kaliba wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:47 pm
I know this point has already been drug back and forth throught he mud by some posters, but you know what? I agree with it entirely.
TheBlackPaladin wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:59 am
So here is something I'd like to invite everybody to consider: how do Vic's industry peers feel?

That, more than anything else, may be the most telling of his guilt or innocence. Those are the people who have worked with him and gone to conventions with him. They're the ones who have been in his general vicinity over the years where--and when--many of these incidents have been claimed to occur. Generally speaking, they're the ones who would have the best idea of what kind of person he is...so with that in mind...ask yourself how many of his fellow voice actors are coming to his defense. Ask yourself how many casting directors are coming to his defense. How many audio engineers. How many convention owners, staff members, and guest handlers. How often is he still being hired, and by whom.

I won't tell anybody what to think, as I believe that would undermine what I'm trying to say...but I would very strongly ask everybody here to consider how many--or few--of those in his industry who have worked with him are defending him, and what that suggests.
This is the chief thing that made me "switch sides" pretty early on. For years now, whenever these accusations against Vic would come up, I was on the side of 'that doesn't sound very likely', because it was always just random internet commenters accusing him. The accusations would come from sources that nobody could verify, and then they'd disappear almost as soon as they appeared. And at the time, they very much did seem (at least to me at the time) to come mostly from people who were upset that Vic didn't sign their yaoi or the like.

But then, this time, it didn't go away. It kept going. And it got to the point where we had multiple people who we know for a fact know Vic, and know him personally, were accusing him of improper behavior. And even Vic himself fully confirms that he cheated on his fiance. While that's nowhere near the same thing as sexual assault or harassment, it still doesn't exactly speak well of his integrity, and in fact only makes it easier for me to believe all of the accusations now.

And that's what boggles my mind so much about the disbelievers at this point, I think. I was on that side. Hell, for whatever it's worth, I still believe in 'innocent until proven guilty' as well, and I hate the way internet/public opinion mobs leap to the exact opposite extreme. But that's not what happened here, at all. In this case, it's done the exact opposite in my opinion, and I for the life of me can't see why anyone who considers themselves a decent person isn't at the very least erring on the side of caution of "Vic's probably not the great guy we all thought he was" if nothing else.
Yeah, this post, 100% is exactly where I'm at. Upon first hearing of the accusations - I was actually sitting in the theater about to watch the movie, actually - my initial thought was ":Well gee, isn't that fucking convenient" and figured it was just one bitter fangirl bitching about his homophobia (which i actually had heard about almost a decade ago) and fabricating shit. Some of those overzealous tumblr types can stoop to shady shit, after all.

But with everything that's come out, and the testimonies of others who have known this shit for years...it's just really ridiculous to keep your head in the sand about this.
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Zephyr » Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:35 am

AgitoZ wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:08 pm
There is a whole bunch of possibilities. Mignogna could have sexually harassed someone. I have yet to say it's impossible merely that so far I do not see any evidence to support that claim. Maybe parties involved misremembered things. Maybe the allegations have been embellished. Who knows, there could be more possibilities, there could be less. I would prefer to have more info before making any definitive claims about the whole situation.
You don't have to make a "definitive claim" to make an educated guess or to make an inference to the best explanation. Educated guesses and inferences to the best explanation can turn out to be wrong, and we can make new guesses and inferences in light of the new information. You can and should revise your best guess each time more information comes out. There's no reason to dig in your heels and say "I'm not going to make even a tentative guess", unless you don't trust yourself to reconsider your inference if and when new evidence comes out.

Saying that the mountain of allegations don't collectively count as any evidence whatsoever suggests that you're more inclined to believe that the inference to the best explanation is that every single one of the accusations is misremembered, embellished, false, or some combination of those, rather than that one of them might be true.

Nobody posting in this thread is in a position to know if he did it. But we have more than enough information (ie: the fact that a lot of allegations have piled up, the facts surrounding how sexual assault and sexual assault reporting tend to play out in our culture, the facts surrounding how power dynamics tend to work in general) to determine whether his guilt or his innocence is more plausible.

And the only way that his innocence is more plausible than his guilt, based on what we do know, is if every single account is conveniently coincidentally misremembered and exaggerated and twisted, or if every single account is part of a deep plot to take this guy down. I know, I know, there are many possibilities! Maybe this one was deliberately fabricated, this one's misremembering, this one's embellished, this one was a misunderstanding, this one's misremembered and embellished, and so on and so on, so that not a single one of them is accurate and true. That's one hell of a coincidence, and when you say "there's no evidence for any of it", that's what it sounds like you're implying.

When the inference to the best explanation is "yeah, it's not looking too good, he probably did enough of that shit that it's a problem", it makes sense for private entities, such as businesses and conventions, to decide "we're not gonna take the chance". What all of the "bUt WhErEs ThE eViDeNcE" peeps are fishing for is the kind of stuff that would actually get him convicted and put in jail. Which, hey, if it exists, that's cool, and we can proceed with that. If we don't see that kind of evidence? Welp, shit looks pretty bad based on what we do know, and it makes sense that the businesses and conventions are doing as they're doing.

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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:51 am

I'm at Sakura Con this weekend and was literally two feet from Monica Rial's booth. I wanted to wish her well but being the anti-social introverted girl that I am--and being that I haven't shaved in two days so I can get electrolysis on Monday--I shied away. If by some chance she reads this I just want to say "thank you!" for being brave enough to put up with the slunt-storm of his cultists and the weirdos in the Men's Rights Activism culture.

Also, fucking LOL at Camp Vignogna for thinking they can sue for money, let alone $1,000,000. Dude's a notorious child-touched and was a police officer in the 1980s. There is no way a judge and jury doesn't look at those photos and his resume and hold him to some fucking standards.
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by KBABZ » Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:00 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:51 am
I'm at Sakura Con this weekend and was literally two feet from Monica Rial's booth. I wanted to wish her well but being the anti-social introverted girl that I am--and being that I haven't shaved in two days so I can get electrolysis on Monday--I shied away. If by some chance she reads this I just want to say "thank you!" for being brave enough to put up with the slunt-storm of his cultists and the weirdos in the Men's Rights Activism culture.
I'd say tweet it out to her! She'll definitely see it there.

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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Son Dragon » Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:38 pm

You know certain problems aside, I do think one of the good thing about this is going to court is how much extra information is being requested about a few of the specifc events. Its also a good testing ground to double check where our morals of our society could use some work. It's also good way to follow where certain information is coming from and might show how some of that might have been misunderstood and ended out there. For example a number I've seen that's been bothering me that I'm ready to say sounds like it was telephoned around a couple of times.

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Bullza
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Bullza » Sun Apr 21, 2019 4:51 pm

So did they replace this guy's voice for the Broly movie on DVD in the end or what? I haven't really paid much attention I just recall some people mentioning it as a possibility. Which seems kinda stupid to me but nowadays they do to go to the extremes like that Judgement PS4 game.
JulieYBM wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:51 am
I wanted to wish her well but being the anti-social introverted girl that I am--and being that I haven't shaved in two days so I can get electrolysis on Monday--I shied away.
Oh this was serious. I thought it was some April Fools Joke and was wondering if I was missing something because it seemed a bit late in the month for it.

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