Vic Mignogna

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Young-Jah
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Young-Jah » Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:41 pm

Fionordequester wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 12:16 pm
Young-Jah wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 11:13 am
What does that mean
Beard's trying to appeal stuff that hasn't happened yet, and that's not how things work. So, it's another screw up for him.
Ah what the s word.
Why, Vic just lost
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DragonBallFan
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by DragonBallFan » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am

Mr.Saturn99 wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 12:15 pm
Shaddy wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 3:31 pm
Um, no? There are people, right now, on twitter, youtube, reddit and dozens of other sites, that will stop at nothing to tell you that Vic was accused because white men are victims and the SJWs ruin everything. I have no idea what your goal in this insane "no u" response is, but I can say that it's really funny, so thanks for that.
"you neurotic, self righteous sleazebag" was my personal favorite.
Hell, I'm hardly even the best-qualified to talk about all this stuff. Seeing as you've been temp banned, why don't you take some time to look at Kunzait's posts in this thread? His are usually longer than mine, constantly provide links to information and studies that support the things he's saying, and absolutely fucking wrecked everyone he's talking to, with or without being "civil". He does that on every thread actually, and has brought his hammer down on me on more trivial subjects more than once.
I miss his contributions here; I can only imagine the never-ending deluge of "guys I don't support vic BUT" wore him down. We've had maybe four or five faux-centrists this month alone.
Shaddy wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 3:31 pm
DragonBallFan wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 4:57 am
I won't fuck off, I'll keep going as long as you spew shit out your mouth, you haven't given any good reasons either, and I have PROOF. Saying you won't "do my research" for me is just you being a lazy fuckwit who just wants to hypocritically push their 'whataboutism' and 'misdirection', your still twisting my words and being manipulative, pretty fucking good for someone who considers themselves a "lame douchebag".
Well but you see, the difference is that I'm actually not doing that. I have not said "but what about all the REAL people falsely accused of sexual assault? you don't seem to are about them". I have not changed the subject constantly while trying to do anything but answer the question of "why shouldn't we treat Vic stans like their opinion is valid", I've been very up-front with my answer to that.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 4:57 am
This whole people believing in women in secret societies that hate men is fucking crap that you've pulled right out of your backside. Believe it or not, YOUR PLAYING YOURSELF!!! The only person who think that there's a underground organisation full of evil women is you!!! Only it's not women, it's full of MEN.
Um, no? There are people, right now, on twitter, youtube, reddit and dozens of other sites, that will stop at nothing to tell you that Vic was accused because white men are victims and the SJWs ruin everything. I have no idea what your goal in this insane "no u" response is, but I can say that it's really funny, so thanks for that.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 4:57 am
I never said I should give Vic supporters a chance you dipshit, your still putting words in my mouth, if you'd actually get your head out your ass and write something without the intent of toying and fucking with peoples words, then I wouldn't have said you'd have proven my point.
Well but you have though. I've repeatedly made it clear that we shouldn't allow Vic stans here because what they believe is unjustifiably wrong, and you have made a point of it to disagree with me from the start, offering nothing but complaints about my behavior and horrible rhetorical decisions of your own, which gets us nowhere. The only solution to a bad idea is a better idea. However bad you may perceive me to be, you have only taken less care to keep yourself from looking foolish as this has gone along, rather than more. You were so focused on believing "civility" was the key to everything that the moment you can't play the card your argument completely falls apart.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 4:57 am
Vic should go to prison for what he's done, I can't fucking believe this was allowed to go on for years, that 2011 video of Sean and Sonny making fun of him easily shows they probably knew something was up, morals do mean something to some extent in what you think should happen to him, not every judge is going to treat the situation the same, just think for 3 fucking seconds, I'm not going to think FOR you. If he's sexually harassed people for this fucking long you DO serve jail time, a simple google search will tell you that, obviously there are tons of fucking variables in these situations, each state is also different for consequences I believe. People have him in a good spot, they can fucking get justice, to sit back and let him go free is HORSE SHIT! People like him don't learn! I've come across people like that before!
I'm going to use the phrase "statute of limitations" here, followed by "nobody has actually pressed charges".
DragonBallFan wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 4:57 am
Your an extremist who won't look at the big picture, even though you preach that others should. There IS going to be evidence like I've said before, more than enough, you don't need to just take the word from everyone now that most peoples accounts have been proved to be true, you still need to look at their story instead of say, "Yep, your right", your so fucking self righteous it's disgusting and honestly frightening.
I never said we shouldn't take all the evidence we should get? I said being needlessly skeptical and shit-stirring by taking something Vic stans push (very rarely in your case) and going "see? they might have a point" like it's all an argument in good faith, which it isn't. I didn't say "believe all women", I said that the number of people's testimony, those people's relation to each other and Vic, and the time they've been substantiated over, is in itself a form of evidence beyond reasonable doubt. That really means nothing in relation to other evidence, there isn't only one thing we can use. I'm also not an extremist?

Literally the most "extreme" opinion I've had here is not tolerating the intolerant, and that's really not a super destructive thing to believe, it's how we keep Neo-Nazis out of our coffee shops and homophobes out of our churches. Failure to live up to this and pushing everything onto the first ammendment despite it only being a *federal law* is what is currently allowing the hate group calling themselves Alt-Right to gain power.

Now obviously Vic stans aren't on the same scale (there is some overlap though), but it's the same principle. They have a ridiculous (and let's be honest, misogynistic) belief that all women saying any man they like assaulted them are just lying SJWs targeting the "oppressed" straight white christian man. That's the starting point, there is no active Vic supporter who does not either believe this. I say we shouldn't allow them here, on this community where bigotry isn't tolerated. What is so wrong with that?
DragonBallFan wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 4:57 am
Your right, we don't see things that similar;

Shaddy: Manipulative, Hypocritical, lazy and only wants to start flame wars(which is fine with me, pleb)

DragonBallFan: Got some things wrong. Changed opinions depending on information. A enlightened centrist according to Shad-fuck over here in the corner.
There's no "hypocrisy" or "manipulation" here other than what you've been continuously projecting onto me here. And yes, I am going to keep calling you an enlightened centrist, because no matter how much you say you don't support Vic, you are still arguing for the rights of people who do.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 4:57 am
Your just making it more difficult for Monica and the others, do yourself a favor, go to sleep, do some mediation, see a doctor, just do anything you can to get that fist out your ass, then come back and talk. Or not, either's fine with me, it's quite sad seeing someone like you here, but it's oddly amusing as well. Maybe because your trying really hard to shrug off my claims that your manipulative while proving me right when you try to combat something I've said.
You have done nothing to show how this is true. By any reasonable account, this forum has NO EFFECT on the situation one way or the other, but quelling misinformation and assholery has an effect on this forum.

Also, if I'm "proving you right" so much, how come you can't actually show that? What have I actually said that's manipulative?
DragonBallFan wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 4:57 am
oh, and yeah, you shouted "it's probably fake", that doesn't prove your case, instead of being lazy and sitting here arguing your own one-sided opinions, put into action what you preach.
Because my case was never that it was fake. That was a minor obstacle in the reasoning of "Vic stans have nothing to stand on", a piece in the reasoning of "we shouldn't be tolerating Vic stans here". Whether it was real or not didn't actually change that "Vic is innocent" is a completely conspiratorial and flimsy take, if not a malicious one.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 4:57 am
So I'm going to do what your doing, and scream in your face until you piss off, chasing people away is the way to go eh? Naive fucking 20 yr old with the mind of a low functioning mutt that can't tell the difference between intelligently getting their point across with communication skills and just barking their fucking head off until they pass out.
The entire thread has "intelligently gotten their point across with communication skills" like forty fucking times. That's why I keep telling you to read the thread. Whenever pressed, Vic stans do not listen to reason. The faux-stans who claim to be centrist but constantly argue in Vic's favor act exactly the same way. There are people whose beliefs on certain subjects mean their minds will never be changed.

And if their minds can be changed? They almost certainly are not going to stride in here saying "eat THIS, chucklefucks. no evidence, twitter drama, marzgurl said something one time, sean banned me so that means he's in on it, Jamie Marchi, why only now, police". That's not how a skeptic, moderate, or undecided person talks. I've seen the past almost-200 pages of this thread, and "arguing reasonably" doesn't work. They either get themselves banned or fuck off to a different thread every single time. Even before I started majorly participating in discussion.

Hell, I'm hardly even the best-qualified to talk about all this stuff. Seeing as you've been temp banned, why don't you take some time to look at Kunzait's posts in this thread? His are usually longer than mine, constantly provide links to information and studies that support the things he's saying, and absolutely fucking wrecked everyone he's talking to, with or without being "civil". He does that on every thread actually, and has brought his hammer down on me on more trivial subjects more than once.
Mr.Saturn99 wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 12:12 pm
Welp, that was some self-destruction if I ever saw any.
You'd have to be really pathetic to reply and post against someone who can't defend themselves.
Shaddy wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 3:31 pm
Well but you see, the difference is that I'm actually not doing that. I have not said "but what about all the REAL people falsely accused of sexual assault? you don't seem to are about them". I have not changed the subject constantly while trying to do anything but answer the question of "why shouldn't we treat Vic stans like their opinion is valid", I've been very up-front with my answer to that.
First I would like to say you are definitely right as I was doing the whole "whataboutism" thing, which wasn't right, I do genuinely care about the victims. At the time we were arguing I had some shit going on in my life, that actually relates to this stuff some what, and it was difficult for me to think properly.

Now I want to say that this is a discussion thread, everyone has a right to their opinion, and my opinion at the time about hearing the Vic stands out was completely valid. The more you try to oppress them, the more damage you do to you're side. It's clear they can't bring anything much to the table in terms of a proper conversation with their arguments and thus make a fool of themselves. I'm not saying to hear out people like the Umbrella Guy, because he's a sexist ass hole as well as those others. But I'm talking about the people that genuinely think they can bring something to the table that's an actual point.
Shaddy wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 3:31 pm
Um, no? There are people, right now, on twitter, youtube, reddit and dozens of other sites, that will stop at nothing to tell you that Vic was accused because white men are victims and the SJWs ruin everything. I have no idea what your goal in this insane "no u" response is, but I can say that it's really funny, so thanks for that.
Those people you were talking about are the morons who have mostly got involved to get money. If you look in the right places, you'll find tons of right winged stuff on YT, Reddit, and other sites.

And I did say until there is evidence it's alleged, which is another one wrong. After our fight I had a think and started to do a bit more research and came to find out this has been going on for over a decade, people don't just come out and lie about this stuff, doesn't mean all of them are telling the truth, but most of the things that have been said are most likely valid and Vic definitely is guilty of most of the things he has been accused of in MY opinion.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 4:57 am
I never said I should give Vic supporters a chance you dipshit, your still putting words in my mouth, if you'd actually get your head out your ass and write something without the intent of toying and fucking with peoples words, then I wouldn't have said you'd have proven my point.
Shaddy wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 3:31 pm
Well but you have though. I've repeatedly made it clear that we shouldn't allow Vic stans here because what they believe is unjustifiably wrong, and you have made a point of it to disagree with me from the start, offering nothing but complaints about my behavior and horrible rhetorical decisions of your own, which gets us nowhere. The only solution to a bad idea is a better idea. However bad you may perceive me to be, you have only taken less care to keep yourself from looking foolish as this has gone along, rather than more. You were so focused on believing "civility" was the key to everything that the moment you can't play the card your argument completely falls apart.

I find this hypocritical, your behavior was to insult anyone who didn't agree with you. Being civil is how you get closer to winning the war in certain cases, acting the way you were(and how I was reacting) is how you make a fool out of what your fighting for.
Not sure what you mean about my argument falling apart. It's good to have some self awareness when pointing others flaws out, because you end up ironically making a fool of yourself as well.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 4:57 am
Your an extremist who won't look at the big picture, even though you preach that others should. There IS going to be evidence like I've said before, more than enough, you don't need to just take the word from everyone now that most peoples accounts have been proved to be true, you still need to look at their story instead of say, "Yep, your right", your so fucking self righteous it's disgusting and honestly frightening.
Shaddy wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 3:31 pm
I never said we shouldn't take all the evidence we should get? I said being needlessly skeptical and shit-stirring by taking something Vic stans push (very rarely in your case) and going "see? they might have a point" like it's all an argument in good faith, which it isn't. I didn't say "believe all women", I said that the number of people's testimony, those people's relation to each other and Vic, and the time they've been substantiated over, is in itself a form of evidence beyond reasonable doubt. That really means nothing in relation to other evidence, there isn't only one thing we can use. I'm also not an extremist?

Literally the most "extreme" opinion I've had here is not tolerating the intolerant, and that's really not a super destructive thing to believe, it's how we keep Neo-Nazis out of our coffee shops and homophobes out of our churches. Failure to live up to this and pushing everything onto the first ammendment despite it only being a *federal law* is what is currently allowing the hate group calling themselves Alt-Right to gain power.

Now obviously Vic stans aren't on the same scale (there is some overlap though), but it's the same principle. They have a ridiculous (and let's be honest, misogynistic) belief that all women saying any man they like assaulted them are just lying SJWs targeting the "oppressed" straight white christian man. That's the starting point, there is no active Vic supporter who does not either believe this. I say we shouldn't allow them here, on this community where bigotry isn't tolerated. What is so wrong with that?
I agree with you here, poor judgment on my part.

I disagree, you were not tolerating the tolerant, I don't remember starting off being intolerant at all, it's the exact opposite, I got extremely pissed at some of the words you were putting in my mouth, and to make matters worse, it felt like the whole site was against me trying to silence me, which I refused to let happen until I was banned, which is fine, I'd rather not be the coward to run away.

Thing is, you can't keep homophobes out of our coffee shops or neo nazis out, why? Because we live in a world where people are entitled to their opinions. I don't agree with them, but I don't think your way of handling them should be the way unless under certain circumstances.

Vic stans are on the same scale, most of them at least. I've seen nothing but similarity's to the alt right from them.

You say bigotry isn't allowed yet it is only if it's under certain circumstances, surely you are starting to see the irony here?
DragonBallFan wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 4:57 am
Your right, we don't see things that similar;

Shaddy: Manipulative, Hypocritical, lazy and only wants to start flame wars(which is fine with me, pleb)

DragonBallFan: Got some things wrong. Changed opinions depending on information. A enlightened centrist according to Shad-fuck over here in the corner.
Shaddy wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 3:31 pm
There's no "hypocrisy" or "manipulation" here other than what you've been continuously projecting onto me here. And yes, I am going to keep calling you an enlightened centrist, because no matter how much you say you don't support Vic, you are still arguing for the rights of people who do.
Keep calling me an enlightened centrist, that's fine. I believe certain people from the two groups should be allowed to present what 'evidence' they think they have. Oppressing people is a trait of the alt right and alt left, the two groups that hurt what they're fighting for.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 4:57 am
Your just making it more difficult for Monica and the others, do yourself a favor, go to sleep, do some mediation, see a doctor, just do anything you can to get that fist out your ass, then come back and talk. Or not, either's fine with me, it's quite sad seeing someone like you here, but it's oddly amusing as well. Maybe because your trying really hard to shrug off my claims that your manipulative while proving me right when you try to combat something I've said.
Shaddy wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 3:31 pm
You have done nothing to show how this is true. By any reasonable account, this forum has NO EFFECT on the situation one way or the other, but quelling misinformation and assholery has an effect on this forum.

Also, if I'm "proving you right" so much, how come you can't actually show that? What have I actually said that's manipulative?
It's extremely hard to get evidence for something so huge, people who have a brain and can see reason will see how both sides are so flawed and won't bother jumping in to support the victims. Where is your evidence that it's not having an effect? If people on this forum talk the way they do here on other sites then surely you can see how it affects the situation?

We obviously had different sources of research, which was why I was saying to SHARE those resources so I could learn more about the situation, now that I'm looking at it, it seems you really just wanted any reason to fight and trash talk. Correct me if I'm wrong, which will no doubt will happen.

Looking back at all those messages just shows me how it really is important to think. I said in replies why I thought you were proving me right, I'm not going back into all that again, it's just stirring up more emotions that I don't want because I want this to be a proper better reply this time.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 4:57 am
oh, and yeah, you shouted "it's probably fake", that doesn't prove your case, instead of being lazy and sitting here arguing your own one-sided opinions, put into action what you preach.
Shaddy wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 3:31 pm
Because my case was never that it was fake. That was a minor obstacle in the reasoning of "Vic stans have nothing to stand on", a piece in the reasoning of "we shouldn't be tolerating Vic stans here". Whether it was real or not didn't actually change that "Vic is innocent" is a completely conspiratorial and flimsy take, if not a malicious one.
It was fake.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 4:57 am
So I'm going to do what your doing, and scream in your face until you piss off, chasing people away is the way to go eh? Naive fucking 20 yr old with the mind of a low functioning mutt that can't tell the difference between intelligently getting their point across with communication skills and just barking their fucking head off until they pass out.
Shaddy wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 3:31 pm
The entire thread has "intelligently gotten their point across with communication skills" like forty fucking times. That's why I keep telling you to read the thread. Whenever pressed, Vic stans do not listen to reason. The faux-stans who claim to be centrist but constantly argue in Vic's favor act exactly the same way. There are people whose beliefs on certain subjects mean their minds will never be changed.

And if their minds can be changed? They almost certainly are not going to stride in here saying "eat THIS, chucklefucks. no evidence, twitter drama, marzgurl said something one time, sean banned me so that means he's in on it, Jamie Marchi, why only now, police". That's not how a skeptic, moderate, or undecided person talks. I've seen the past almost-200 pages of this thread, and "arguing reasonably" doesn't work. They either get themselves banned or fuck off to a different thread every single time. Even before I started majorly participating in discussion.

Hell, I'm hardly even the best-qualified to talk about all this stuff. Seeing as you've been temp banned, why don't you take some time to look at Kunzait's posts in this thread? His are usually longer than mine, constantly provide links to information and studies that support the things he's saying, and absolutely fucking wrecked everyone he's talking to, with or without being "civil". He does that on every thread actually, and has brought his hammer down on me on more trivial subjects more than once.
I am not going to go through these threads again, last thing I need is another breakdown. I didn't think, I was in a bad place, I admit that, and I take full responsibility for that.

I will still give criticism to the side I'm on, which I have done in this reply. Not much to criticism Vic and his followers on however, because it's so clear what kind of people they really are most of them can't defend shit.

======================END

What was really starting to drive me insane was you and some other guy saying I was on Vic's side at the time, when it is absolutely OK for me to be in the center, but you were being a complete bigot and trying to insinuate I can be compared to a Neo Nazi which I took great offense to. Not only that but a subject of SJW's came up, which I find hypocritical condsidering there's a thread where softcore porn is posted, so much for not degrading and objectifying women's bodies. Which I strongly disagree with.

You are 100% right, no one needs to be nice to their abusers, and no one has the responsibility to bring them to justice, they didn't ask for what happened to them, it's not fair to put that on them. I was wrong on that point.

I do still however believe you were twisting my words in parts of your comments when really, all it took was someone to differ in opinions with you to try and shut them down. And you succeeded, only because VegetoEX is biased.

I'm not going to tell you or anyone else to stop with the passive aggressive posts against me, because you are entitled to your opinion, but with that said if you're going to push someone, do it enough and expect back lash.
JulieYBM wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 8:30 am
Centrism is about making no changes, i.e. protecting the status quo from change. When your status quo is a right-wing positition that means centrism is...right-wing.

Fucking hell, y'all. We want Mic Vignogna removed from fandom spaces and his colleagues want him removed from the work spaces where he has committed his crimes, which is apparently nearly all of them. Hardly an unreasonable request given the fact that he's nearly a senior citizen and has had nearly thirty years of a window to learn from his mistakes. Fuck him, there's no reason to suck his dick.
Please don't call me right wing ever again. Seriously.

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Mr.Saturn99
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Mr.Saturn99 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:24 pm

DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
You'd have to be really pathetic to reply and post against someone who can't defend themselves.
Did you seriously spend five months stewing over that?

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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Gyt Kaliba » Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:36 pm

DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
hypocritical condsidering there's a thread where softcore porn is posted, so much for not degrading and objectifying women's bodies. Which I strongly disagree with.
In absolutely NO way is a thread about fan-service and cheesecake art of completely fictional characters anywhere near approaching the sorts of things that Vic has himself admitted to doing and trying to do. Attempting to cheat on your fiance constantly and being creepy and inappropriate with real life breathing women =/= people drawing, posting, liking, and commenting about artwork. At all.
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Fionordequester » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:39 pm

DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
hypocritical condsidering there's a thread where softcore porn is posted, so much for not degrading and objectifying women's bodies. Which I strongly disagree with.
Now see, all the other stuff, I understand. I think you're too aggressive with it, but, I see where you're coming from.

This though... I mean, I don't LIKE the "sexy thread". Most of the stuff I found there is kinda tasteless and gross... But I don't think it contradicts what SJWs fight for.

They're concerned about their rights & safety more than they're worried about anything else. A lot of 'em are folks who'll objectify themselves 7 ways to Sunday, so long as they know they CAN be something else, if they want to be.

Basically, they want to know they'll still be treated like people, even if they do things society doesn't approve of. That's the difference between jacking off to some porn, and treating prostitutes like garbage, know what I'm saying?

'Course, I don't want either to happen, but... I'm in the minority on that.
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Shaddy » Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:15 pm

Fuck it, my internet just came back and I'm in a discoursing mood, why the hell not.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
Now I want to say that this is a discussion thread, everyone has a right to their opinion, and my opinion at the time about hearing the Vic stands out was completely valid. The more you try to oppress them, the more damage you do to you're side.
The definition of "oppression" is 'prolonged cruel or unjust treatment or control'.

There is nothing cruel about removing someone from an internet forum. There is nothing unjust about not catering to the ravings of bad-faith actors.

None of these people are "oppressed". I'm not sure that Kanzenshuu the forum has any ability to oppress people, nor could a single person acting alone on this subject.

Also, what "damage" has been done to "my side" (notably you still differentiate this from "our side")? Vic stains don't like me? So the fuck what? I don't WANT them to like me. If the topic has become hostile to them in other places or here, they can just change their position or fuck off. They're not dying.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
It's clear they can't bring anything much to the table in terms of a proper conversation with their arguments and thus make a fool of themselves. I'm not saying to hear out people like the Umbrella Guy, because he's a sexist ass hole as well as those others. But I'm talking about the people that genuinely think they can bring something to the table that's an actual point.
And which people are those? Where have they been for the last year? I'm waiting, but I still don't see them. What is the rational, reality-based argument for Vic's innocence that never breaches into dumb conspiracy theory bullshit?
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
Those people you were talking about are the morons who have mostly got involved to get money. If you look in the right places, you'll find tons of right winged stuff on YT, Reddit, and other sites.
They have the same effect, your only argument could be if they don't actually believe what they're pushing to their audience. And in all likelihood, if that were the case, they wouldn't be making that kind of content in the first place.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
I find this hypocritical, your behavior was to insult anyone who didn't agree with you. Being civil is how you get closer to winning the war in certain cases, acting the way you were(and how I was reacting) is how you make a fool out of what your fighting for.
Not sure what you mean about my argument falling apart. It's good to have some self awareness when pointing others flaws out, because you end up ironically making a fool of yourself as well.
But what has civility done here? What has a supposed "lack" of it lost us? This isn't the "culture war", it's a lawsuit that by-and-large, Kanzenshuu has absolutely nothing to do with. As such, Kanzenshuu as a forum that doesn't want to platform support for a sexual predator, should not be tolerant of people supporting Vic. This thread could be about Bill Cosby and it'd go about the same way.

Generalizing Vic stan behavior as "just someone you disagree with" is a mistake as well. Really ardent supporters aren't looking to have their minds changed. They're not coming here to gain a new perspective. If they think "gosh that couldn't be true" and "I really hope it isn't as bad as they say" they're not going to show up with #istandwithvic in their bio and start every post with "👏👏👏NO👏EVIDENCE👏👏👏". It's a reactionary mindset that's inherently against change from hearing rational, nuanced opinions. All you can do without letting them take over is get them off the forum. It takes a long, long time and a lot of work from personal acquaintances and possibly therapists to change the mind of a reactionary, because they're acting on a lot of deep-seated emotional issues. They are motivated by bigotry, not a genuine belief that something might be different.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
I disagree, you were not tolerating the tolerant, I don't remember starting off being intolerant at all, it's the exact opposite, I got extremely pissed at some of the words you were putting in my mouth, and to make matters worse, it felt like the whole site was against me trying to silence me, which I refused to let happen until I was banned, which is fine, I'd rather not be the coward to run away.
You were unabashedly and obviously spewing the same pro-Vic talking points and debunked nonsense as every other Vic stan, and displaying the same lack of understanding of the victims. The same "you have no proof", the same "look at all these fakers", the same "but why didn't the accusers do X". It's not our fault for treating your behavior the same way as all the other people saying the same shit. You literally said "I'm in the center, but I would support the other side". What the hell did you expect?
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
Thing is, you can't keep homophobes out of our coffee shops or neo nazis out, why? Because we live in a world where people are entitled to their opinions. I don't agree with them, but I don't think your way of handling them should be the way unless under certain circumstances.
Actually, you fucking can. You say "we don't serve homophobic assholes in my coffee shop". You pass legislation that makes certain people a protected group that employers can't discriminate against, you create a world that demands basic human compassion and empathy to get by, and you force them to be tolerant of others with a society that won't accept them otherwise. Bigotry is a behavior, it is an action, and most actions can be impeded, if not stopped entirely. None of the things I've suggested encroach on the first amendment, by the way.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
Vic stans are on the same scale, most of them at least. I've seen nothing but similarity's to the alt right from them.

You say bigotry isn't allowed yet it is only if it's under certain circumstances, surely you are starting to see the irony here?
How many times do I have to say it? A tolerant society has no tolerance for intolerant people. There is a right and wrong answer to this situation. The victims and their supporters are not just Vic and his stans but in reverse. Purporting to be in the center on this subject at all is making a false equivalence.

DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
Keep calling me an enlightened centrist, that's fine. I believe certain people from the two groups should be allowed to present what 'evidence' they think they have.
Why? Where does that get anyone when one side is not motivated by logic, and hangs out with Nazis?
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
Oppressing people is a trait of the alt right and alt left, the two groups that hurt what they're fighting for.
Image
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
It's extremely hard to get evidence for something so huge, people who have a brain and can see reason will see how both sides are so flawed and won't bother jumping in to support the victims.
But both sides AREN'T flawed. Not on the same level, not at all! One of them is correct, and the other is supporting a serial abuser based on attachment to his voice at best, and looking to protect sexism and abuse at all costs at the worst. That doesn't make the opposition perfect, but they are in no way equivalent.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
We obviously had different sources of research, which was why I was saying to SHARE those resources so I could learn more about the situation, now that I'm looking at it, it seems you really just wanted any reason to fight and trash talk. Correct me if I'm wrong, which will no doubt will happen.

Looking back at all those messages just shows me how it really is important to think. I said in replies why I thought you were proving me right, I'm not going back into all that again, it's just stirring up more emotions that I don't want because I want this to be a proper better reply this time.
You weren't going at this like someone who was just curiously skeptic. You parroted a bunch of arguments bad-faith Vic stans were. If you'd actually listened the half-dozen times people refuted them you wouldn't look the way you did.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
I will still give criticism to the side I'm on, which I have done in this reply. Not much to criticism Vic and his followers on however, because it's so clear what kind of people they really are most of them can't defend shit.
Criticizing the opposition and equating them with the accused aren't the same thing, and you've mostly done the latter since the beginning.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
What was really starting to drive me insane was you and some other guy saying I was on Vic's side at the time, when it is absolutely OK for me to be in the center,
We already told you multiple times how "centrism" just leaves the door open for Vic's side. There is no "center" between "Vic is an abuser" and "the accusers are ally lying sluts".

DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
you were being a complete bigot and trying to insinuate I can be compared to a Neo Nazi which I took great offense to.
I don't think I ever compared you to Neo-Nazis. I compared you to the pro-Vic crowd, which has a lot of them in it, and if you've got a problem with that you're perfectly welcome to just leave! If you keep defending their positions and demanding their delusions be entertained and """debunked""" (again, they're not gonna listen), you shouldn't be surprised if people call you overly sympathetic towards them.

DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
Not only that but a subject of SJW's came up, which I find hypocritical condsidering there's a thread where softcore porn is posted, so much for not degrading and objectifying women's bodies. Which I strongly disagree with.
I don't think you really get the progressive opinion here. The problem with sexual objectification of women in media is one of improper representation, and the difference in it between women and men. Feminists aren't gonna kinkshame you for jerking off to a big titty anime girl. They just want to impact modern media in such a manner that people are represented with equal amounts of care and equal amounts of tact, and not normalizing harmful opinions and ideals for the viewers who, let's be honest, don't interact with women so much as to be influenced in a bad way by the media they consume.

Also, wow, sexy anime girls and groping people are like, ten thousand percent not the same thing.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
I do still however believe you were twisting my words in parts of your comments when really, all it took was someone to differ in opinions with you to try and shut them down. And you succeeded, only because VegetoEX is biased.
Nobody is entitled to treat you with kiddie gloves when you enter a thread with a bunch of bad takes and won't back down when people tell you you're wrong. Opinions aren't some harmless thing that doesn't effect decisions and need to be tolerated at all costs. It's the responsibility of a community and it's moderators to keep dangerous opinions from being mainstreamed and normalized.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
I'm not going to tell you or anyone else to stop with the passive aggressive posts against me, because you are entitled to your opinion, but with that said if you're going to push someone, do it enough and expect back lash.
Oooooookay? I was not like, majorly negatively affected by your posts months ago, and I don't regret anything I've said. This isn't some painful thing for me, I was more baffled to see you respond to things I said half a year ago than anything else.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
Please don't call me right wing ever again. Seriously.
Julie didn't call you right wing. She said centrism defends the status quo (which is true), and the status quo of most of us (this largely being a western/US forum) is pretty far-right. Similarly, the status quo was "Vic is around, and still creepy", and defending that status quo means you're defending Vic.
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Kefla » Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:19 am

If you use TUG or Yellow Flash for your facts. You already lost.

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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by DragonBallFan » Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:29 am

Gyt Kaliba wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:36 pm
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
hypocritical condsidering there's a thread where softcore porn is posted, so much for not degrading and objectifying women's bodies. Which I strongly disagree with.
In absolutely NO way is a thread about fan-service and cheesecake art of completely fictional characters anywhere near approaching the sorts of things that Vic has himself admitted to doing and trying to do. Attempting to cheat on your fiance constantly and being creepy and inappropriate with real life breathing women =/= people drawing, posting, liking, and commenting about artwork. At all.
Don't take what I said out of context. That was in reply to Shaddy's SJW comment. But you knew that. Ignoring you now, bye.

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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by DragonBallFan » Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:32 am

Mr.Saturn99 wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:24 pm
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
You'd have to be really pathetic to reply and post against someone who can't defend themselves.
Did you seriously spend five months stewing over that?
I have still been following the subject so it was in the back of my mind. No point is being made as you knew it would be some time before my ban ran out, that's why you said the things you did, you have a nice little escape route now when I replied. None the less it's obvious you're a troll, join the Krillin profile pic guy in the ban list.

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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by DragonBallFan » Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:00 am

Fionordequester wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:39 pm
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
hypocritical condsidering there's a thread where softcore porn is posted, so much for not degrading and objectifying women's bodies. Which I strongly disagree with.
Now see, all the other stuff, I understand. I think you're too aggressive with it, but, I see where you're coming from.

This though... I mean, I don't LIKE the "sexy thread". Most of the stuff I found there is kinda tasteless and gross... But I don't think it contradicts what SJWs fight for.

They're concerned about their rights & safety more than they're worried about anything else. A lot of 'em are folks who'll objectify themselves 7 ways to Sunday, so long as they know they CAN be something else, if they want to be.

Basically, they want to know they'll still be treated like people, even if they do things society doesn't approve of. That's the difference between jacking off to some porn, and treating prostitutes like garbage, know what I'm saying?

'Course, I don't want either to happen, but... I'm in the minority on that.
I share many of the beliefs with a social justice warrior, I've been called one left right and center(except for here of course). Sexualisation is a part of what they fight against, or over sexualisation, this world is still mostly run by males so most of it is for male entertainment, the "lucky" ones who are lesbian don't seem as affected usually but that doesn't give them a free pass to act justify what is happening just because they are females.

Those people who say they are SJW's from my perspective are not, and fit a different category in general. Dominic or whatever her name is, as well as a few others I can name I would not consider SJW's. People who have their face out on the internet let alone their body are going to get criticism, those who complain about that like some of the "SWJ"'s I've seen want to be left alone and winge to the end of time about criticism. I have no problem for people entering the sex industry, though I have mixed feelings and opinions I'm still trying to figure out. It's like, if you have kids and sexualise yourself, what are you saying to your child? If there's nothing wrong with being a prostitute why isn't it listed as a subject in school?

I must say though I have seen a few interviews with people from the sex industry and they do seem off, it's either they are missing something most people aren't or what they are doing comes from insecurities or trauma, which has partly been proven.

I just think if your going to have porn, that's fine but have it somewhere else and not on 'regular' sites, if people want porn they can easily find it, I don't know why that cancer has to be here. I also think porn somewhat conditions people to be a certain way, but that's a topic for another time.

To answer your first statement, I was being a little aggressive, but I'm trying my best to stay calm after trying to read through the other messages, it's clear the person I was talking to doesn't want to talk, instead argue and insult, so he can join the block list. Thanks for not being an asshole.

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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by DragonBallFan » Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:19 am

Shaddy wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:15 pm
Fuck it, my internet just came back and I'm in a discoursing mood, why the hell not.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
Now I want to say that this is a discussion thread, everyone has a right to their opinion, and my opinion at the time about hearing the Vic stands out was completely valid. The more you try to oppress them, the more damage you do to you're side.
The definition of "oppression" is 'prolonged cruel or unjust treatment or control'.

There is nothing cruel about removing someone from an internet forum. There is nothing unjust about not catering to the ravings of bad-faith actors.

None of these people are "oppressed". I'm not sure that Kanzenshuu the forum has any ability to oppress people, nor could a single person acting alone on this subject.

Also, what "damage" has been done to "my side" (notably you still differentiate this from "our side")? Vic stains don't like me? So the fuck what? I don't WANT them to like me. If the topic has become hostile to them in other places or here, they can just change their position or fuck off. They're not dying.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
It's clear they can't bring anything much to the table in terms of a proper conversation with their arguments and thus make a fool of themselves. I'm not saying to hear out people like the Umbrella Guy, because he's a sexist ass hole as well as those others. But I'm talking about the people that genuinely think they can bring something to the table that's an actual point.
And which people are those? Where have they been for the last year? I'm waiting, but I still don't see them. What is the rational, reality-based argument for Vic's innocence that never breaches into dumb conspiracy theory bullshit?
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
Those people you were talking about are the morons who have mostly got involved to get money. If you look in the right places, you'll find tons of right winged stuff on YT, Reddit, and other sites.
They have the same effect, your only argument could be if they don't actually believe what they're pushing to their audience. And in all likelihood, if that were the case, they wouldn't be making that kind of content in the first place.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
I find this hypocritical, your behavior was to insult anyone who didn't agree with you. Being civil is how you get closer to winning the war in certain cases, acting the way you were(and how I was reacting) is how you make a fool out of what your fighting for.
Not sure what you mean about my argument falling apart. It's good to have some self awareness when pointing others flaws out, because you end up ironically making a fool of yourself as well.
But what has civility done here? What has a supposed "lack" of it lost us? This isn't the "culture war", it's a lawsuit that by-and-large, Kanzenshuu has absolutely nothing to do with. As such, Kanzenshuu as a forum that doesn't want to platform support for a sexual predator, should not be tolerant of people supporting Vic. This thread could be about Bill Cosby and it'd go about the same way.

Generalizing Vic stan behavior as "just someone you disagree with" is a mistake as well. Really ardent supporters aren't looking to have their minds changed. They're not coming here to gain a new perspective. If they think "gosh that couldn't be true" and "I really hope it isn't as bad as they say" they're not going to show up with #istandwithvic in their bio and start every post with "👏👏👏NO👏EVIDENCE👏👏👏". It's a reactionary mindset that's inherently against change from hearing rational, nuanced opinions. All you can do without letting them take over is get them off the forum. It takes a long, long time and a lot of work from personal acquaintances and possibly therapists to change the mind of a reactionary, because they're acting on a lot of deep-seated emotional issues. They are motivated by bigotry, not a genuine belief that something might be different.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
I disagree, you were not tolerating the tolerant, I don't remember starting off being intolerant at all, it's the exact opposite, I got extremely pissed at some of the words you were putting in my mouth, and to make matters worse, it felt like the whole site was against me trying to silence me, which I refused to let happen until I was banned, which is fine, I'd rather not be the coward to run away.
You were unabashedly and obviously spewing the same pro-Vic talking points and debunked nonsense as every other Vic stan, and displaying the same lack of understanding of the victims. The same "you have no proof", the same "look at all these fakers", the same "but why didn't the accusers do X". It's not our fault for treating your behavior the same way as all the other people saying the same shit. You literally said "I'm in the center, but I would support the other side". What the hell did you expect?
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
Thing is, you can't keep homophobes out of our coffee shops or neo nazis out, why? Because we live in a world where people are entitled to their opinions. I don't agree with them, but I don't think your way of handling them should be the way unless under certain circumstances.
Actually, you fucking can. You say "we don't serve homophobic assholes in my coffee shop". You pass legislation that makes certain people a protected group that employers can't discriminate against, you create a world that demands basic human compassion and empathy to get by, and you force them to be tolerant of others with a society that won't accept them otherwise. Bigotry is a behavior, it is an action, and most actions can be impeded, if not stopped entirely. None of the things I've suggested encroach on the first amendment, by the way.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
Vic stans are on the same scale, most of them at least. I've seen nothing but similarity's to the alt right from them.

You say bigotry isn't allowed yet it is only if it's under certain circumstances, surely you are starting to see the irony here?
How many times do I have to say it? A tolerant society has no tolerance for intolerant people. There is a right and wrong answer to this situation. The victims and their supporters are not just Vic and his stans but in reverse. Purporting to be in the center on this subject at all is making a false equivalence.

DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
Keep calling me an enlightened centrist, that's fine. I believe certain people from the two groups should be allowed to present what 'evidence' they think they have.
Why? Where does that get anyone when one side is not motivated by logic, and hangs out with Nazis?
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
Oppressing people is a trait of the alt right and alt left, the two groups that hurt what they're fighting for.
Image
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
It's extremely hard to get evidence for something so huge, people who have a brain and can see reason will see how both sides are so flawed and won't bother jumping in to support the victims.
But both sides AREN'T flawed. Not on the same level, not at all! One of them is correct, and the other is supporting a serial abuser based on attachment to his voice at best, and looking to protect sexism and abuse at all costs at the worst. That doesn't make the opposition perfect, but they are in no way equivalent.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
We obviously had different sources of research, which was why I was saying to SHARE those resources so I could learn more about the situation, now that I'm looking at it, it seems you really just wanted any reason to fight and trash talk. Correct me if I'm wrong, which will no doubt will happen.

Looking back at all those messages just shows me how it really is important to think. I said in replies why I thought you were proving me right, I'm not going back into all that again, it's just stirring up more emotions that I don't want because I want this to be a proper better reply this time.
You weren't going at this like someone who was just curiously skeptic. You parroted a bunch of arguments bad-faith Vic stans were. If you'd actually listened the half-dozen times people refuted them you wouldn't look the way you did.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
I will still give criticism to the side I'm on, which I have done in this reply. Not much to criticism Vic and his followers on however, because it's so clear what kind of people they really are most of them can't defend shit.
Criticizing the opposition and equating them with the accused aren't the same thing, and you've mostly done the latter since the beginning.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
What was really starting to drive me insane was you and some other guy saying I was on Vic's side at the time, when it is absolutely OK for me to be in the center,
We already told you multiple times how "centrism" just leaves the door open for Vic's side. There is no "center" between "Vic is an abuser" and "the accusers are ally lying sluts".

DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
you were being a complete bigot and trying to insinuate I can be compared to a Neo Nazi which I took great offense to.
I don't think I ever compared you to Neo-Nazis. I compared you to the pro-Vic crowd, which has a lot of them in it, and if you've got a problem with that you're perfectly welcome to just leave! If you keep defending their positions and demanding their delusions be entertained and """debunked""" (again, they're not gonna listen), you shouldn't be surprised if people call you overly sympathetic towards them.

DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
Not only that but a subject of SJW's came up, which I find hypocritical condsidering there's a thread where softcore porn is posted, so much for not degrading and objectifying women's bodies. Which I strongly disagree with.
I don't think you really get the progressive opinion here. The problem with sexual objectification of women in media is one of improper representation, and the difference in it between women and men. Feminists aren't gonna kinkshame you for jerking off to a big titty anime girl. They just want to impact modern media in such a manner that people are represented with equal amounts of care and equal amounts of tact, and not normalizing harmful opinions and ideals for the viewers who, let's be honest, don't interact with women so much as to be influenced in a bad way by the media they consume.

Also, wow, sexy anime girls and groping people are like, ten thousand percent not the same thing.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
I do still however believe you were twisting my words in parts of your comments when really, all it took was someone to differ in opinions with you to try and shut them down. And you succeeded, only because VegetoEX is biased.
Nobody is entitled to treat you with kiddie gloves when you enter a thread with a bunch of bad takes and won't back down when people tell you you're wrong. Opinions aren't some harmless thing that doesn't effect decisions and need to be tolerated at all costs. It's the responsibility of a community and it's moderators to keep dangerous opinions from being mainstreamed and normalized.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
I'm not going to tell you or anyone else to stop with the passive aggressive posts against me, because you are entitled to your opinion, but with that said if you're going to push someone, do it enough and expect back lash.
Oooooookay? I was not like, majorly negatively affected by your posts months ago, and I don't regret anything I've said. This isn't some painful thing for me, I was more baffled to see you respond to things I said half a year ago than anything else.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
Please don't call me right wing ever again. Seriously.
Julie didn't call you right wing. She said centrism defends the status quo (which is true), and the status quo of most of us (this largely being a western/US forum) is pretty far-right. Similarly, the status quo was "Vic is around, and still creepy", and defending that status quo means you're defending Vic.
Just as I thought would happen, insulting and insulting. If my opinion differs slightly from yours, then I'm alt right, that's fine, anyone with half a brain cell can see you've got major issues, I hope you had fun with your post, taking very specific definitions and trying to use them to invalidate what I was saying, name calling, etc.

Oppression is an umbrella term, it doesn't cover just that little detail, that can be a small part, it's not that black and white, but then again you have just shown even after all this time you still are narrow minded and can't take the slightest difference in opinion. You can say I stand with Vic all you like, I know who I stand with, and you aren't going to tell me otherwise. I've given you enough power and this is the last time I respond, because, well, you're going to join the block list where all the other radicals have gone.

Once again how do you show damage? Outsiders see the way people like you react and make a first impression right off of that, where's your prove this isn't happening, because i sure have seen it, want me to list every source? If you truly believe in what you're saying then perhaps you won't try and roll out of each question similar to how Jordan Peaterson does, ironic how much you two have in common.

It's been very obvious from the beginning but I took the bait and didn't see it, you don't want to reach any conclusion here, you're here to do only one thing which is argue, which comes from a place of pent up anger and other issues.

Perhaps when your ready to start reflecting you'll take a look back at these posts and realise how immature you sound. You are obviously trapped in a corner if you have to resort to being so aggressive in your posts as well as go through the time to photoshop an image to mock me. Once you reflect, and you finally accept criticism, is the day you'll be much happier, instead of this sad 19-year old esque persona who has anger management issues. Wish you all the best, whoever you are.

(Also never compared the porn stuff to the Vic situation, another example of you twisting things)

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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by DragonBallFan » Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:19 am

Shaddy wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:15 pm
Fuck it, my internet just came back and I'm in a discoursing mood, why the hell not.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
Now I want to say that this is a discussion thread, everyone has a right to their opinion, and my opinion at the time about hearing the Vic stands out was completely valid. The more you try to oppress them, the more damage you do to you're side.
The definition of "oppression" is 'prolonged cruel or unjust treatment or control'.

There is nothing cruel about removing someone from an internet forum. There is nothing unjust about not catering to the ravings of bad-faith actors.

None of these people are "oppressed". I'm not sure that Kanzenshuu the forum has any ability to oppress people, nor could a single person acting alone on this subject.

Also, what "damage" has been done to "my side" (notably you still differentiate this from "our side")? Vic stains don't like me? So the fuck what? I don't WANT them to like me. If the topic has become hostile to them in other places or here, they can just change their position or fuck off. They're not dying.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
It's clear they can't bring anything much to the table in terms of a proper conversation with their arguments and thus make a fool of themselves. I'm not saying to hear out people like the Umbrella Guy, because he's a sexist ass hole as well as those others. But I'm talking about the people that genuinely think they can bring something to the table that's an actual point.
And which people are those? Where have they been for the last year? I'm waiting, but I still don't see them. What is the rational, reality-based argument for Vic's innocence that never breaches into dumb conspiracy theory bullshit?
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
Those people you were talking about are the morons who have mostly got involved to get money. If you look in the right places, you'll find tons of right winged stuff on YT, Reddit, and other sites.
They have the same effect, your only argument could be if they don't actually believe what they're pushing to their audience. And in all likelihood, if that were the case, they wouldn't be making that kind of content in the first place.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
I find this hypocritical, your behavior was to insult anyone who didn't agree with you. Being civil is how you get closer to winning the war in certain cases, acting the way you were(and how I was reacting) is how you make a fool out of what your fighting for.
Not sure what you mean about my argument falling apart. It's good to have some self awareness when pointing others flaws out, because you end up ironically making a fool of yourself as well.
But what has civility done here? What has a supposed "lack" of it lost us? This isn't the "culture war", it's a lawsuit that by-and-large, Kanzenshuu has absolutely nothing to do with. As such, Kanzenshuu as a forum that doesn't want to platform support for a sexual predator, should not be tolerant of people supporting Vic. This thread could be about Bill Cosby and it'd go about the same way.

Generalizing Vic stan behavior as "just someone you disagree with" is a mistake as well. Really ardent supporters aren't looking to have their minds changed. They're not coming here to gain a new perspective. If they think "gosh that couldn't be true" and "I really hope it isn't as bad as they say" they're not going to show up with #istandwithvic in their bio and start every post with "👏👏👏NO👏EVIDENCE👏👏👏". It's a reactionary mindset that's inherently against change from hearing rational, nuanced opinions. All you can do without letting them take over is get them off the forum. It takes a long, long time and a lot of work from personal acquaintances and possibly therapists to change the mind of a reactionary, because they're acting on a lot of deep-seated emotional issues. They are motivated by bigotry, not a genuine belief that something might be different.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
I disagree, you were not tolerating the tolerant, I don't remember starting off being intolerant at all, it's the exact opposite, I got extremely pissed at some of the words you were putting in my mouth, and to make matters worse, it felt like the whole site was against me trying to silence me, which I refused to let happen until I was banned, which is fine, I'd rather not be the coward to run away.
You were unabashedly and obviously spewing the same pro-Vic talking points and debunked nonsense as every other Vic stan, and displaying the same lack of understanding of the victims. The same "you have no proof", the same "look at all these fakers", the same "but why didn't the accusers do X". It's not our fault for treating your behavior the same way as all the other people saying the same shit. You literally said "I'm in the center, but I would support the other side". What the hell did you expect?
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
Thing is, you can't keep homophobes out of our coffee shops or neo nazis out, why? Because we live in a world where people are entitled to their opinions. I don't agree with them, but I don't think your way of handling them should be the way unless under certain circumstances.
Actually, you fucking can. You say "we don't serve homophobic assholes in my coffee shop". You pass legislation that makes certain people a protected group that employers can't discriminate against, you create a world that demands basic human compassion and empathy to get by, and you force them to be tolerant of others with a society that won't accept them otherwise. Bigotry is a behavior, it is an action, and most actions can be impeded, if not stopped entirely. None of the things I've suggested encroach on the first amendment, by the way.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
Vic stans are on the same scale, most of them at least. I've seen nothing but similarity's to the alt right from them.

You say bigotry isn't allowed yet it is only if it's under certain circumstances, surely you are starting to see the irony here?
How many times do I have to say it? A tolerant society has no tolerance for intolerant people. There is a right and wrong answer to this situation. The victims and their supporters are not just Vic and his stans but in reverse. Purporting to be in the center on this subject at all is making a false equivalence.

DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
Keep calling me an enlightened centrist, that's fine. I believe certain people from the two groups should be allowed to present what 'evidence' they think they have.
Why? Where does that get anyone when one side is not motivated by logic, and hangs out with Nazis?
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
Oppressing people is a trait of the alt right and alt left, the two groups that hurt what they're fighting for.
Image
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
It's extremely hard to get evidence for something so huge, people who have a brain and can see reason will see how both sides are so flawed and won't bother jumping in to support the victims.
But both sides AREN'T flawed. Not on the same level, not at all! One of them is correct, and the other is supporting a serial abuser based on attachment to his voice at best, and looking to protect sexism and abuse at all costs at the worst. That doesn't make the opposition perfect, but they are in no way equivalent.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
We obviously had different sources of research, which was why I was saying to SHARE those resources so I could learn more about the situation, now that I'm looking at it, it seems you really just wanted any reason to fight and trash talk. Correct me if I'm wrong, which will no doubt will happen.

Looking back at all those messages just shows me how it really is important to think. I said in replies why I thought you were proving me right, I'm not going back into all that again, it's just stirring up more emotions that I don't want because I want this to be a proper better reply this time.
You weren't going at this like someone who was just curiously skeptic. You parroted a bunch of arguments bad-faith Vic stans were. If you'd actually listened the half-dozen times people refuted them you wouldn't look the way you did.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
I will still give criticism to the side I'm on, which I have done in this reply. Not much to criticism Vic and his followers on however, because it's so clear what kind of people they really are most of them can't defend shit.
Criticizing the opposition and equating them with the accused aren't the same thing, and you've mostly done the latter since the beginning.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
What was really starting to drive me insane was you and some other guy saying I was on Vic's side at the time, when it is absolutely OK for me to be in the center,
We already told you multiple times how "centrism" just leaves the door open for Vic's side. There is no "center" between "Vic is an abuser" and "the accusers are ally lying sluts".

DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
you were being a complete bigot and trying to insinuate I can be compared to a Neo Nazi which I took great offense to.
I don't think I ever compared you to Neo-Nazis. I compared you to the pro-Vic crowd, which has a lot of them in it, and if you've got a problem with that you're perfectly welcome to just leave! If you keep defending their positions and demanding their delusions be entertained and """debunked""" (again, they're not gonna listen), you shouldn't be surprised if people call you overly sympathetic towards them.

DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
Not only that but a subject of SJW's came up, which I find hypocritical condsidering there's a thread where softcore porn is posted, so much for not degrading and objectifying women's bodies. Which I strongly disagree with.
I don't think you really get the progressive opinion here. The problem with sexual objectification of women in media is one of improper representation, and the difference in it between women and men. Feminists aren't gonna kinkshame you for jerking off to a big titty anime girl. They just want to impact modern media in such a manner that people are represented with equal amounts of care and equal amounts of tact, and not normalizing harmful opinions and ideals for the viewers who, let's be honest, don't interact with women so much as to be influenced in a bad way by the media they consume.

Also, wow, sexy anime girls and groping people are like, ten thousand percent not the same thing.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
I do still however believe you were twisting my words in parts of your comments when really, all it took was someone to differ in opinions with you to try and shut them down. And you succeeded, only because VegetoEX is biased.
Nobody is entitled to treat you with kiddie gloves when you enter a thread with a bunch of bad takes and won't back down when people tell you you're wrong. Opinions aren't some harmless thing that doesn't effect decisions and need to be tolerated at all costs. It's the responsibility of a community and it's moderators to keep dangerous opinions from being mainstreamed and normalized.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
I'm not going to tell you or anyone else to stop with the passive aggressive posts against me, because you are entitled to your opinion, but with that said if you're going to push someone, do it enough and expect back lash.
Oooooookay? I was not like, majorly negatively affected by your posts months ago, and I don't regret anything I've said. This isn't some painful thing for me, I was more baffled to see you respond to things I said half a year ago than anything else.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
Please don't call me right wing ever again. Seriously.
Julie didn't call you right wing. She said centrism defends the status quo (which is true), and the status quo of most of us (this largely being a western/US forum) is pretty far-right. Similarly, the status quo was "Vic is around, and still creepy", and defending that status quo means you're defending Vic.
Just as I thought would happen, insulting and insulting. If my opinion differs slightly from yours, then I'm alt right, that's fine, anyone with half a brain cell can see you've got major issues, I hope you had fun with your post, taking very specific definitions and trying to use them to invalidate what I was saying, name calling, etc.

Oppression is an umbrella term, it doesn't cover just that little detail, that can be a small part, it's not that black and white, but then again you have just shown even after all this time you still are narrow minded and can't take the slightest difference in opinion. You can say I stand with Vic all you like, I know who I stand with, and you aren't going to tell me otherwise. I've given you enough power and this is the last time I respond, because, well, you're going to join the block list where all the other radicals have gone.

Once again how do you show damage? Outsiders see the way people like you react and make a first impression right off of that, where's your prove this isn't happening, because i sure have seen it, want me to list every source? If you truly believe in what you're saying then perhaps you won't try and roll out of each question similar to how Jordan Peaterson does, ironic how much you two have in common.

It's been very obvious from the beginning but I took the bait and didn't see it, you don't want to reach any conclusion here, you're here to do only one thing which is argue, which comes from a place of pent up anger and other issues.

Perhaps when your ready to start reflecting you'll take a look back at these posts and realise how immature you sound. You are obviously trapped in a corner if you have to resort to being so aggressive in your posts as well as go through the time to photoshop an image to mock me. Once you reflect, and you finally accept criticism, is the day you'll be much happier, instead of this sad 19-year old esque persona who has anger management issues. Wish you all the best, whoever you are.

(Also never compared the porn stuff to the Vic situation, another example of you twisting things)
(And the portrayal of such acts in porn does have a negative impact on people, body images and the way they view the topic. It's objectifying and disrespectful, feminists certainly are against it. Not to mention it's so out there in everyone's faces it encourages women to act a certain way, as well as men, which is why we have had an endless cycle of pricks over the last couple hundred years, because those have been men in power who have dictated what is 'right' and what is 'wrong'. Objectification isn't women empowerment as some claim it to be. Porn is a quite a big subject where I discuss other political things at. )

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Shaddy
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Shaddy » Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:50 am

DragonBallFan wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:19 am
Just as I thought would happen, insulting and insulting.
But you obviously don't care about insulting people. You do it across this entire post while also claiming that the biggest virtue is to "be the bigger man" and value some vague notion of "civility". What does that even mean if you're perfectly willing to drop it

Or hell, you're still going with this "you're putting words in my mouth" argument but immediately start off with:
DragonBallFan wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:19 am
If my opinion differs slightly from yours, then I'm alt right,
This is something I have never said. For the most part, I haven't even really called you a Vic stan, I don't think so at least. But defending Vic stans, demanding they have their opinions treated as valid, that's a move they'd sure like. And it's one that doesn't benefit his victims or their supporters at all.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:19 am
Oppression is an umbrella term, it doesn't cover just that little detail, that can be a small part, it's not that black and white, but then again you have just shown even after all this time you still are narrow minded and can't take the slightest difference in opinion.
If you say banning Vic stains is "oppression", you can make anything "oppression". The forum rules are oppressing. The forum being about Dragon Ball "oppresses" people who might want to talk about something else, it's bullshit.

It's called proper moderation. There's no reason to allow Vic stans and their shitty takes here. It helps nothing, and you can see how any one of those forums or reddit pages with vague "tolerating other opinions" rules goes to complete shit once reactionaries learn they can take over by submerging the userbase in their rhetoric due to having basically no moral compass.

Under your argument here, we wouldn't be able to get rid of a troll spamming threads with porn and gore, or the guy espousing support for ISIS and Al Qaeda (side note: what the fuck), because those people just had the "differing opinion" that the forums needed to be spammed with porn and gore, or that Islamic supremacy needs to reign over and/or obliterate the entire planet.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:19 am
You can say I stand with Vic all you like, I know who I stand with, and you aren't going to tell me otherwise.
This forum doesn't stand with Vic, though. The moderation doesn't, most of the userbase doesn't. They are perfectly justified in spreading the message that Vic and his stans are bad, by banning them. Banning assholes is a utilization of freedom of speech to make a statement, believe it or not.

And again, keeping them here and letting them say what they want helps nobody. There is no positive effect of that action, and plenty of negative ones.

I would never say we should ban everyone who likes the Faulconer score. Or hell, people who like Vic's performance. I do! In one specific instance, at least. But supporting a serial abuser is not a harmless opinion. It's not one anyone should allow to spread, and having no tolerance for it on the forum is an effective way to do it, at least for us specifically.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:19 am
I've given you enough power and this is the last time I respond, because, well, you're going to join the block list where all the other radicals have gone.
Literally none of the people you say you've blocked are radicals. You called them radicals because they supposedly misinterpreted a comment you made, that you still refuse to actually explain how it wasn't a false equivalence between feminists criticizing a sexual abuser and people horny for anime girls.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:19 am
Once again how do you show damage? Outsiders see the way people like you react and make a first impression right off of that, where's your prove this isn't happening
"Where's your proof this isn't happening" can be applied to a ton of hypothetical scenarios. The better question is who it's happening to, and what the effect is.

If a normal person looks at the anti-Vic crowd, sees me saying "we shouldn't platform dipshits", and goes "wow he's too mad", they're gonna fuck off and go somewhere else. That's not really something that damages anyone in particular.

Now I assume you'd probably go "b-but what if someone sees all the incivility and becomes ISWV as a result?". Yeah, doesn't happen.

Nobody in ISWV got there because "the anti-Vic crowd was just so loud you guys, like really". Some might say that, and I can certainly see you taking everything they say at face value, but Vic stans would always have been Vic stans at the time it happened, no matter what the KV crowd did. The old joke "the left got a little too PC so I changed all my thoughts on social and economic policies" rings true here.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:19 am
want me to list every source?
I like how you put an invitation to type more stuff right after the "this is my last response" comment.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:19 am
If you truly believe in what you're saying then perhaps you won't try and roll out of each question similar to how Jordan Peaterson does, ironic how much you two have in common.
What questions have I backed away from? You're not really asking questions, you're mostly just making accusations.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:19 am
It's been very obvious from the beginning but I took the bait and didn't see it, you don't want to reach any conclusion here, you're here to do only one thing which is argue, which comes from a place of pent up anger and other issues.
You made a giant post responding to all the shit people said to you half a year ago! If anything looks like argument for the sake of arguing, it's that. Me taking the piss out of you? Would not have happened if you didn't do that.

It should be obvious the moment you said "VegettoEX banned me because he was biased toward you". No, dude, he banned you because you were being ridiculous. He doesn't fucking care about me, I'm one guy, barely a blip on the radar most of the time, except when a giant stupid argument arises like this one.

Also, the conclusion was "no, we don't have to listen to them, Kanzenshuu can do what it wants" and we got there five months ago.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:19 am
Perhaps when your ready to start reflecting you'll take a look back at these posts and realise how immature you sound.
I'm more than aware that I'm not taking you seriously, dude. You've still brought absolutely nothing to the table here. Actually, here, this is what your post looks like if I black out everything that isn't some form of response to my arguments. You haven't tackled anything I said about how far-right nutjobs permeate communities, how businesses denying Nazis service would make it harder for them to spread, the negative effects that platforming reactionaries can have, or the nature of having a "centrist" take on such a black-and-white issue.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:19 am
You are obviously trapped in a corner if you have to resort to being so aggressive in your posts
Again, look at this thread. You've made two giant responses, one of them being the fourth post in a row you've made condemning someone for not taking your shit. I'm not any more or less aggressive than I ever am, I'm just not treating you like your takes are good or valid, because I don't think they are. That's the simple fact. You aren't having your delicate sensibilities catered to here.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:19 am
Once you reflect, and you finally accept criticism, is the day you'll be much happier, instead of this sad 19-year old esque persona who has anger management issues. Wish you all the best, whoever you are.
19 year old with anger issues? I thought I was a "neurotic, self-righteous sleazebag"? Seriously, you're projecting hard here.

Look at how I started my first response. "Fuck it, this seems like a fun waste of time" is basically what I said. And it's been that! I'm doing all this partially because I'm wondering how deep in this rabbit hole you actually are that I can't change your mind, and partially because it's still really funny. You're so worked up over this and I'm really not acting any more sarcastic or provocative than usual, and you are itching to find new ways to lambaste me for the way I deliver this argument that you really don't seem to have much way of fighting.
DragonBallFan wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:19 am
(Also never compared the porn stuff to the Vic situation, another example of you twisting things)
Well obviously nobody knows what the fuck you did mean. Because it sure SOUNDED like you said "SJWs say sexual assault is bad, but this forum has a thread for sexy anime women. HYPOCRISY MUCH?). I even responded to you in such a manner that explained why most progressives don't actually have a problem with sexual content so much as exploitation and inequality, but you ignored that.

----------------------------------------------

Okay, let's break this down to our core issue. Let's pretend that we're both robots, arguing cerebral, purely philosophical even, binary answers to a problem.

I think that letting Vic stains speak their mind isn't helpful to the community. I believe this, because their position does not have a logical through-line, and always breaches into conspiracy theory, or some deeply disturbed beliefs about the world and it's power structures, and who "deserves" to be on "top". Therefore, the opinions they spread, that I have seen them spread, and that I will continue to see being spread by reactionary groups in the future, can negatively influence the community and it's members. Ergo, we should quash those posts, and those users, from the forum that the moderation has every right to control in any manner they want, wherever possible.

What is your rebuttal to this? What is the positive effect that would exist in this community, or beyond it, had we allowed every person with a "Monica and Toye conspired with Marchi for ten years" take to be entertained fully, not removed, or ignored?

Do you think they'd be willing to listen if you told them why it was wrong? Do you think they'd just be your friends?

Because that isn't my experience. It's the experience these groups are specifically crafted to annihilate.
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Gyt Kaliba » Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:18 am

DragonBallFan wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:29 am
Gyt Kaliba wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:36 pm
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
hypocritical condsidering there's a thread where softcore porn is posted, so much for not degrading and objectifying women's bodies. Which I strongly disagree with.
In absolutely NO way is a thread about fan-service and cheesecake art of completely fictional characters anywhere near approaching the sorts of things that Vic has himself admitted to doing and trying to do. Attempting to cheat on your fiance constantly and being creepy and inappropriate with real life breathing women =/= people drawing, posting, liking, and commenting about artwork. At all.
Don't take what I said out of context. That was in reply to Shaddy's SJW comment. But you knew that. Ignoring you now, bye.
It's hardly out of context when the comment itself is still completely ludicrous on it's own. If you legit think that fake drawings of sexual nature is in any way comparable to someone grabbing someone else without permission, or attempting to use their power over them to get what they want, then you're just wrong, context be damned.
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Mr.Saturn99
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Mr.Saturn99 » Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:20 am

DragonBallFan wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:32 am
Mr.Saturn99 wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:24 pm
DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:10 am
You'd have to be really pathetic to reply and post against someone who can't defend themselves.
Did you seriously spend five months stewing over that?
I have still been following the subject so it was in the back of my mind. No point is being made as you knew it would be some time before my ban ran out, that's why you said the things you did, you have a nice little escape route now when I replied. None the less it's obvious you're a troll, join the Krillin profile pic guy in the ban list.
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Gyt Kaliba » Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:16 am

Somehow I didn't even notice that bit before. On the one hand, I'm finding it pretty sad that one comment of discourse against him is all it takes to earn a 'block'. I guess he's only got Shaddy on his mind to argue with and anyone else is extraneous. *shrug*

On the other hand, I'm pretty amused at being 'that guy with the Krillin avatar' even when people are being dismissive. I'll count that one as a win.

At any rate, it won't be too surprising if the 'temporary ban' eventually becomes a permanent one at the rate he's going; he clearly did not spend his time away reflecting in any manner.
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Soppa Saia People » Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:28 pm

DragonBallFan wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:19 am
back to back quoting of huge posts
lol jeez, not to be unnecessarily rude but this page just wrecks my phone browser, was it really neccessary to quote Shaddy's post in full twice and respond to it two different times ?
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by KBABZ » Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:05 pm

Gyt Kaliba wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:16 am
On the other hand, I'm pretty amused at being 'that guy with the Krillin avatar' even when people are being dismissive. I'll count that one as a win.
Hopefully someday someone will back-handedly refer to me as "that guy with the avatar of himself in Toriyama's Full Color art style that's pretty good, actually".
Soppa Saia People wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:28 pm
DragonBallFan wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:19 am
back to back quoting of huge posts
lol jeez, not to be unnecessarily rude but this page just wrecks my phone browser, was it really neccessary to quote Shaddy's post in full twice and respond to it two different times ?
Right?! It's like when people quote the entirity of one of Kunzait's posts only to say "lol cool bro".

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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Gyt Kaliba » Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:32 pm

And it begins anew, only not really probably - here's hoping the appeal gets dismissed pretty quickly.
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Scsigs » Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:05 pm

Vic, buddy, WHY do you keep going with terrible advice? You had no real case against these people for defamation or tortious interference, so why are you trying to keep peddling this bullshit that is just gonna end in failure? Jesus.
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