Vic Mignogna

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

I think discussing this stuff is useful and interesting.

True, but i don't think that this specific thread is the right place to do so. Maybe in the "non thread worthy" one because the topic has already been derailed numerous times over the course of 200+ pages with long discussions and tangents that aren't even related to this including U.S/world politics, the slavery discussion from a page or two ago and other numerous irrelevant things.

[Shaddy]

If this is the thread that keeps getting derailed to talk about weird social or political issues, it might as well be the thread where we do that stuff. There's not a lot of news on the icky Vicky situation right now, so it's not doing much harm.

[miguelnuva1]

Did Vic decide to appeal? The thread should stay open till then or we should lock this one and start and new thread and try not to go off topic. My apologizes for the part I played in going off topic.

[SHINOBI-03]

In case anyone wants on-topic content here, Vic is blaming everyone but himself yet again:
https://twitter.com/Jtwantstoplay/statu ... 28481?s=20

[Fionordequester]

I have a friend who works with elderly & disabled people. I personally don't have the patience or want to do anything like that. I barely tolerate normal people enough. I could not work with special needs people, certainly not kids. Hats off to you, good sir, for doing so.

Aw, thanks... You're so sweet.

In any case, I personally love the thread; or at least, I love what it's done for us. I feel like we all know each other far better than we ever would have, had we not explored any of these deeper issues.

I've certainly been a lot more talkative and active than usual, at any rate.

[Scsigs]

I think discussing this stuff is useful and interesting.

This isn't quite the place, though. If you wanna discuss things not related to Vic, you can discuss things in either other threads, or off the site.

I agree with Scsigs. This thread is almost not about Vic Mignogna anymore. Its almost like an offtopic dumpster fire.

This thread should have been locked about 260 pages ago so idk

I don't know if it should've been locked, but maybe policed more or watched more closely by the mods. I had to step away from this thread for months because this thread was super toxic & not really productive for a while when nothing was happening with Vic & more & more people were flocking here to discuss Vic's situation. An example is that there was even a person who said, & I quote, "Can we just ban these people from the forum?" in reference to the people who came to the thread, were curious about what was going on, but some of the other people were so bothered by having to explain the situation or that someone just wanted to be caught up that they'd rather the mods ban the person from the entire forum just for wanting to know rather than letting someone else explain what was going on. Didn't say anything else, nothing bad, just wanted to know what was going on.
Or worse, when you'd bring up a completely logical way of going about things, like waiting for more evidence to come out or playing things by ear before making a complete judgement, you either get ignored, like me, or you got shat on for not automatically hating Vic from the outset when all there was to go on was Marzgurl's self-admitted hunch, a lot of hearsay at the time before substantial proof was given, & one of the major players, Monica Rial, not endearing herself to the people who wanted to know more or didn't believe her, which turned outsiders off from liking her while Vic, in not doing anything, didn't stir the pot & looked better by comparison. Just saying, but it took her way too long to actually tell her side of the story & maybe not saying anything in the meantime would've been a better strategy for her to wait till she was comfortable with doing so. I'd like to think that, in retrospect, most here who remember earlier this year can admit that, while she might've been justified in reacting badly to the people who were either trolling or being genuinely awful, her going against everyone who even remotely said anything that wasn't instantly on her side & saying, "I've taken a screenshot of this tweet & sent it to my lawyer" didn't really come off that well to a lot of people.
Having an air of skepticism towards a situation caused by huge allegations that aren't readily proven true is both healthy, normal, & shouldn't be discouraged imo. Sometimes they're proven false. Sometimes they're true. That's why investigations are important & Vic's case is clearly now proven to be in favor of the accusers, but, at the beginning, no one outside of the people involved really knew for sure. I know I'll get hate for saying that, but it's just an observation from someone who was doing just that.

But, anyways, those aren't good for discourse, it just makes the forum look bad & appear to have a normal toxicity it doesn't normally have, which I remember Yellowflash2 discussing in one of his videos for the suggestion of banning people who didn't know what was going on. I didn't watch passed the first minute or so of that video, but I assume he shat on the forum for doing something that was only suggested. He used a screenshot of the forum, so that's how I know he quietly creeps on to this forum at times, as well as him mentioning in the video where he talked about the problems with the 30th anniversary BR set of Z that some people had scratched discs & then proceeded to use pictures you could only find linked from this forum as far as I know.

The only time this thread is truly worth paying attention to is when some new development happens, which doesn't happen too often. I can probably count on one hand the amount of times this forum actually had anything of worth to pay attention to as a result.

If this is the thread that keeps getting derailed to talk about weird social or political issues, it might as well be the thread where we do that stuff. There's not a lot of news on the icky Vicky situation right now, so it's not doing much harm.

Conversely, if there's nothing going on with Vic, & this isn't really a forum to normally discuss social or political stuff that doesn't relate to Dragon Ball, you shouldn't either discuss it in this thread, or should take the conversation elsewhere. Discussing the horrible undertones of Shield Hero or Goblin Slayer or Attack on Titan are not for a thread that relates to Vic or his case. Other threads get called out by the mods almost instantly if they go off topic for a certain amount of posts for a certain amount of time. This is one of the few threads I've seen that doesn't. If the mods had any sense, they'd lock this thread until a new development with Vic's case is made & tell people to stay on topic. There are many other places you can discuss things that aren't related to Vic, or you can maybe start your own thread on this forum for discussing certain topics if you feel they're worth discussing.

Also, I'd argue it does do harm because it bloats the threads with a lot of fluff that doesn't mean much to the topic. I've had some of my posts deleted by some of the mods sometimes for reasons I don't know, but the lack of a universal enforcement of the forum rules in a consistent way leads to a sense of the mods picking & choosing what they police on the platform they've been hired to help moderate. I'm not saying context doesn't matter, or that everything warrants the same amount of intensity, but if a topic thread gets insanely off topic for a good amount of time, then the discourse should be redirected back on topic. Otherwise, what's the point of the mods?

In case anyone wants on-topic content here, Vic is blaming everyone but himself yet again:
https://twitter.com/Jtwantstoplay/statu ... 28481?s=20

Thank you.

[Polyphase Avatron]

It was never about how Monica or anyone else acted, all that matters to me is if there are multiple credible accusations, which there are. Even if one or two of the accusers are jerks who everyone hates, that doesn't mean the accused party is innocent.

[goku the krump dancer]

While i am obviously guilty at least for the last page or two of engaging in some of the craziness, In regards to keeping things on topic I will say this, Vic's been pretty much ejected from the series. Johnny Young Bosh is his official english replacement and honestly there isnt much left to say at this point I wouldnt mind a lock just to avoid needless retreads into madness. The Mods arent nearly as active as they used to be though, I havent seen a post from Kaboom, TheDevilsCorpse, SaiyaJedi, Herms or even Kamiccolo9 in months.

[Scsigs]

It was never about how Monica or anyone else acted, all that matters to me is if there are multiple credible accusations, which there are. Even if one or two of the accusers are jerks who everyone hates, that doesn't mean the accused party is innocent.

That's not what I meant. The point in mentioning Monica is that, even though she was one of the most credible accusers, she kinda ruined it for some by giving the movement a bad name. Thankfully, there are other people than her who didn't act like she did & this has now gotten to where it is right now.

[MasenkoHA]

It was never about how Monica or anyone else acted, all that matters to me is if there are multiple credible accusations, which there are. Even if one or two of the accusers are jerks who everyone hates, that doesn't mean the accused party is innocent.

That's not what I meant. The point in mentioning Monica is that, even though she was one of the most credible accusers, she kinda ruined it for some by giving the movement a bad name. Thankfully, there are other people than her who didn't act like she did & this has now gotten to where it is right now.

How exactly did she give the movement a bad name? People were harassing her for coming forward. This all goes back to victim blaming mentality.

[Scsigs]

How exactly did she give the movement a bad name? People were harassing her for coming forward. This all goes back to victim blaming mentality.

What I meant is that, from the outside looking in, she didn't appear to be that sympathetic. Sometimes people get ahead of themselves & saying things can sometimes cause more damage than not. Kinda like now where you're accusing me of victim blaming, but I'm not. I'm just offering an observation I made a while ago. I believe her, if that's what you're worried about.

She had a right to come forward. I don't wanna take the importance of that away. Anyone who's gone through legitimate sexual harassment should be able to tell their side of the story. I support the young women that have been groomed by Onision, so I'd be a hypocrite for saying otherwise with Monica since I see no contradicting evidence to her claims. I'm just saying she handled it poorly. She's not the first person to do that & she won't be the last to do so. I legit wonder what she thought saying sending screenshots of tweets from anonymous trolls or harassers unrelated to Vic was supposed to accomplish as well, since you can't really hold them accountable as a result of their online anonymity. Regardless, I have my point & I don't want it to be muddied by people putting words in my mouth. That doesn't help anyone.

I mean, just look at how ProJared handled his situation in comparison. He got off social media for a few months & let the hate die down while he did his own research & investigation. He came back with strong counter-evidence & analysis of the accusers' claims. If Monica did something similar, waiting for the hate to die down then told her side of the story, like she did anyways, she could've appeared better to an outside or observer. I'm not saying her doing what she did caused people not to believe her, just that she didn't appear that sympathetic even when she was one of the most important people in this case.

[Polyphase Avatron]

How exactly did she give the movement a bad name? People were harassing her for coming forward. This all goes back to victim blaming mentality.

What I meant is that, from the outside looking in, she didn't appear to be that sympathetic. Sometimes people get ahead of themselves & saying things can sometimes cause more damage than not. Kinda like now where you're accusing me of victim blaming, but I'm not. I'm just offering an observation I made a while ago. I believe her, if that's what you're worried about.

She had a right to come forward. I don't wanna take the importance of that away. Anyone who's gone through legitimate sexual harassment should be able to tell their side of the story. I support the young women that have been groomed by Onision, so I'd be a hypocrite for saying otherwise with Monica since I see no contradicting evidence to her claims. I'm just saying she handled it poorly. She's not the first person to do that & she won't be the last to do so. I legit wonder what she thought saying sending screenshots of tweets from anonymous trolls or harassers unrelated to Vic was supposed to accomplish as well, since you can't really hold them accountable as a result of their online anonymity. Regardless, I have my point & I don't want it to be muddied by people putting words in my mouth. That doesn't help anyone.

If she was the only one accusing him, you might have a point.

[Scsigs]

If she was the only one accusing him, you might have a point.

That's why I'm not saying she was. She's just the one that stuck out the most to me. The other victims don't. I think that says something to my point, or at least it should. I've believed her, but, for the longest time, I didn't feel a lot of sympathy for her. That's the problem here. I wanted to like her, but she wasn't giving me anything to let me. I feel bad about that, but that's the situation. I bet I'm not alone here.

And now we're getting back to what I feel is the toxicity this kind of thing brings out. People are calling me out for things I didn't say or meant. No one actually wants to see anyone's bigger points if there's any to actually see in favor of arguing points that weren't what was intended to be talked about. And further talking of these things to explain mentalities on these things only detracts from the original points. And now I'm probably gonna have something like, "well, you brought it on yourself" thrown at me & have me accused of playing the victim even though I'm not.

[JulieYBM]

Perhaps a victim of sexual assault should be afforded the room to defend herself against false accusations of lying to ruin the life of some conservative douche nobody outside of cartoon dubs made in the US has heard of?

Apologies for the run on sentence.

[Scsigs]

Perhaps a victim of sexual assault should be afforded the room to defend herself against false accusations of lying to ruin the life of some conservative douche nobody outside of cartoon dubs made in the US has heard of?

Apologies for the run on sentence.

I have nothing against defending yourself, I just think she went a little overboard in a direction she shouldn't have at the time. Like, handling things more smarter would've helped her.

[Polyphase Avatron]

If she was the only one accusing him, you might have a point.

That's why I'm not saying she was. She's just the one that stuck out the most to me. The other victims don't. I think that says something to my point, or at least it should. I've believed her, but, for the longest time, I didn't feel a lot of sympathy for her. That's the problem here. I wanted to like her, but she wasn't giving me anything to let me. I feel bad about that, but that's the situation. I bet I'm not alone here.

And now we're getting back to what I feel is the toxicity this kind of thing brings out. People are calling me out for things I didn't say or meant. No one actually wants to see anyone's bigger points if there's any to actually see in favor of arguing points that weren't what was intended to be talked about. And further talking of these things to explain mentalities on these things only detracts from the original points. And now I'm probably gonna have something like, "well, you brought it on yourself" thrown at me & have me accused of playing the victim even though I'm not.

I wasn't saying anything against you personally, just that the argument that 'one of the accusers is acting like a jerk and makes me feel no sympathy for her' isn't a logically valid argument.

[Kunzait_83]

That's why I'm not saying she was. She's just the one that stuck out the most to me. The other victims don't. I think that says something to my point, or at least it should. I've believed her, but, for the longest time, I didn't feel a lot of sympathy for her. That's the problem here. I wanted to like her, but she wasn't giving me anything to let me. I feel bad about that, but that's the situation. I bet I'm not alone here.

This is actually part of another larger issue in a great deal of the discourse regarding rape and sexual assault, known as "The Perfect Victim Fallacy". The idea that in order for a rape or sexual assault victim to be taken seriously, they must be inherently model human beings with no imperfections, and any hint of human fallibility in their conduct casts some measure of doubt on their claims.

I'll leave two bits of further reading on this topic at the end of this post, but its another of the many hugely important pieces of why so much of the public discourse regarding rape and sexual assault places such an undue lopsided degree of onus against the victims rather than the perpetrators. The ultimate point being: real life isn't like a movie. These people aren't the main characters in a drama that you're meant to "root for or against".

Even horrible, nasty people (and obviously I don't think that Monica Rial is in any way such) can become victims of a rape or sexual assault of some kind, and their being awful in any number of areas in life is NO grounds whatsoever to inherently dismiss what happened to them (unless it directly impacts the evidence and the likelihood of their story in some way) or to decide that they in some way "deserved" what happened to them (obviously Scsigs isn't making that point, but its in many cases the assumption that a lot of people make when a sexual abuse victim isn't a perfect, angelic saint in every aspect of their life).

NO ONE, no matter how much of a jerk or an asshole they may be in whatever other realms of their life, deserves to be sexually assaulted or to have their story be inherently disbelieved solely on the basis of their being a flawed or unlikable human being in whatever other unrelated areas of their lives.

Janice Dickinson, for example, is by most accounts not in any way a nice or pleasant person in her general attitude and demeanor in her day to day life: however that is in NO WAY relevant whatsoever in the case of what Bill Cosby had done to her, which was without question easily among the most nightmarishly horrific and sickeningly vile acts of rape that notably stands out as particularly cruel, sadistic, and viscous even amongst all the other COUNTLESS heinous rapes that Cosby had committed against countless other women.

No matter HOW nasty or unlikable a person may be, their personality flaws are in NO WAY grounds to either disbelieve their story or to assume that they in some way "had it coming" to them, and the nature of rape or sexual assault as a crime is such that it without question trumps and overrides just about ANY personality flaw or failing in a victim. Even the most unlikable shitheads on the planet deserve justice when they are violated and abused in such a manner.

It is in NO WAY incumbent upon a sexual assault victim to get people to like them and think of them as perfect people: the only thing they need to concern themselves with is getting their story out there and helping to see that justice is brought to their attacker so that no further harm comes to anyone else in the future. Period. What you or I or anyone else thinks of them as individuals outside of the parameters of the assault itself is, generally speaking, COMPLETELY and wholly irrelevant.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/5050/d ... ct-victim/

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... onvictions

[Polyphase Avatron]

That's why I'm not saying she was. She's just the one that stuck out the most to me. The other victims don't. I think that says something to my point, or at least it should. I've believed her, but, for the longest time, I didn't feel a lot of sympathy for her. That's the problem here. I wanted to like her, but she wasn't giving me anything to let me. I feel bad about that, but that's the situation. I bet I'm not alone here.

This is actually part of another larger issue in a great deal of the discourse regarding rape and sexual assault, known as "The Perfect Victim Fallacy". The idea that in order for a rape or sexual assault victim to be taken seriously, they must be inherently model human beings with no imperfections, and any hint of human fallibility in their conduct casts some measure of doubt on their claims.

I'll leave two bits of further reading on this topic at the end of this post, but its another of the many hugely important pieces of why so much of the public discourse regarding rape and sexual assault places such an undue lopsided degree of onus against the victims rather than the perpetrators. The ultimate point being: real life isn't like a movie. These people aren't the main characters in a drama that you're meant to "root for or against".

Even horrible, nasty people (and obviously I don't think that Monica Rial is in any way such) can become victims of a rape or sexual assault of some kind, and their being awful in any number of areas in life is NO grounds whatsoever to inherently dismiss what happened to them (unless it directly impacts the evidence and the likelihood of their story in some way) or to decide that they in some way "deserved" what happened to them (obviously Scsigs isn't making that point, but its in many cases the assumption that a lot of people make when a sexual abuse victim isn't a perfect, angelic saint in every aspect of their life).

NO ONE, no matter how much of a jerk or an asshole they may be in whatever other realms of their life, deserves to be sexually assaulted or to have their story be inherently disbelieved solely on the basis of their being a flawed or unlikable human being in whatever other unrelated areas of their lives.

Janice Dickinson, for example, is by most accounts not in any way a nice or pleasant person in her general attitude and demeanor in her day to day life: however that is in NO WAY relevant whatsoever in the case of what Bill Cosby had done to her, which was without question easily among the most nightmarishly horrific and sickeningly vile acts of rape that notably stands out as particularly cruel, sadistic, and viscous even amongst all the other COUNTLESS heinous rapes that Cosby had committed against countless other women.

No matter HOW nasty or unlikable a person may be, their personality flaws are in NO WAY grounds to either disbelieve their story or to assume that they in some way "had it coming" to them, and the nature of rape or sexual assault as a crime is such that it without question trumps and overrides just about ANY personality flaw or failing in a victim. Even the most unlikable shitheads on the planet deserve justice when they are violated and abused in such a manner.

It is in NO WAY incumbent upon a sexual assault victim to get people to like them and think of them as perfect people: the only thing they need to concern themselves with is getting their story out there and helping to see that justice is brought to their attacker so that no further harm comes to anyone else in the future. Period. What you or I or anyone else thinks of them as individuals outside of the parameters of the assault itself is, generally speaking, COMPLETELY and wholly irrelevant.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/5050/d ... ct-victim/

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... onvictions

I've noticed a similar thing in regards to victims of police brutality. Like saying that Travyon Martin was a shoplifter, or did graffiti, or was part of a gang, as if that excuses shooting him. They often go through the history and records of such (usually black) victims and find anything that could indicate that they were a 'thug' or had a criminal record, and use that to defend the killers.

[JulieYBM]

I've noticed a similar thing in regards to victims of police brutality. Like saying that Travyon Martin was a shoplifter, or did graffiti, or was part of a gang, as if that excuses shooting him. They often go through the history and records of such (usually black) victims and find anything that could indicate that they were a 'thug' or had a criminal record, and use that to defend the killers.

The cops don't just kill our minorities, they assassinate their character, too. Look at all the bullshit the cops and government tried to pull with Doctor King, for example.

Assigned Cop at Birth, honies.

[Saimaroimaru]

I've noticed a similar thing in regards to victims of police brutality. Like saying that Travyon Martin was a shoplifter, or did graffiti, or was part of a gang, as if that excuses shooting him. They often go through the history and records of such (usually black) victims and find anything that could indicate that they were a 'thug' or had a criminal record, and use that to defend the killers.

The cops don't just kill our minorities, they assassinate their character, too. Look at all the bullshit the cops and government tried to pull with Doctor King, for example.

Assigned Cop at Birth, honies.

I recommend listening to the Headlong: Running from COPS podcast. Very eye opening.

Looks like Emmett Plant threatening legal action against some of the Vic supporters for accusing him of committing perjury.

https://twitter.com/Emm_Initiative/stat ... 7697873921