Vic Mignogna

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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Doctor. » Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:05 pm

Michsi wrote:The core of the problem here is not his age. Whether you're in your twenties or fifties you are still expected to be decent. As you can see in the thread, it's not just young women that have issues with this sort of behavior.
The core problem is that he's being accused of sexual assault, a very serious accusation, for what seems to be a perfectly serviceable way to greet his fans, albeit a tad inappropriate considering the ages of some them. Getting close to take a photo and kissing a fan as a greeting or a goodbye seem perfectly fine, in isolation. I don't subscribe to the idea that touching people in non-sexual areas should be completely off-limits or else a lot of people are losing their jobs (or worse) over such a thing. And I also don't subscribe to the idea of judging someone's intent over such actions when that leads to a very slippery slope.

What am I missing? That he was insistent? Yes, that's a bit troubling. It indicates that he feels all too comfortable apparently flirting with underage girls, which should be the bigger issue here, not that he feels comfortable sexually assaulting women, because there was no sexual assault.
Kunzait_83 wrote:Just because he didn't actually penetrate any of the girls doesn't in any way mean that this doesn't qualify as sexual assault, and I find it frankly both comically absurd as well as genuinely unsettling that there are seemingly educated, intelligent people like yourself who appear to actually need such elementary, grade school-level basic social norms explained to you.
Is it sexual harassment? Perhaps. It's debatable. I don't care enough to argue for either side, but I can see how he was perhaps a bit too flirty and insistent to the point that they felt uncomfortable. Is it sexual assault? Now that's where you're losing me. I shouldn't think that unsuccessful and clumsy flirting (there was no groping of any sort, from what was described) is enough to illicit emotional and psychological trauma on someone, but apparently I'm wrong.

This seems like an American thing again, so I'll distance myself from the discussion. I can't muster enough energy to care about societal norms on the other side of the Atlantic.
Marlowe89 wrote:I find your position about unwanted sexual advances for well over a decade being worthy of "a slap on the wrist" to be incredibly ignorant at best and deeply unsettling at worst.
This is wokespeak for "I don't want to debate your position because it makes me feel uncomfortable so I'm just gonna passive-aggressively show how I'm morally superior to you." Stop, be an adult, you're better than this. Either muster up a real response or leave your grandstanding at the door.

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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Marlowe89 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:30 pm

Doctor. wrote: This is wokespeak for "I don't want to debate your position because it makes me feel uncomfortable so I'm just gonna passive-aggressively show how I'm morally superior to you." Stop, be an adult, you're better than this. Either muster up a real response or leave your grandstanding at the door.
No, this is me calmly telling you that I find your reply to be rather ignorant and disturbing. I never said I didn't want to debate your position, although the onus is on you to explain why you think decade-long unwarranted advances deserve no more than a "slap on the wrist". Several people in this thread (including myself) have debated your position and fully elaborated on why this sort of behavior is intolerable.

I don't think you have the expertise to lecture me about adulthood if you couldn't go one post without spewing such a massively kneejerk response.

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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by PFM18 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:34 pm

Doctor. wrote:Reading the article, I don't see how anything he did constitutes sexual assault, as some people are saying in this very thread. Creepy behavior and an indifference or ignorance toward personal boundaries, at the most; worthy of a slap on the wrist, but not the kind of ostracization he's being subject to. He seems to be guilty of being a creep, which is not all-together uncommon among men his age.
Agree 100%. "Being creepy" is not a felony offense. Calling these actions sexual assault is an insult to people who have actually been sexually insulted.

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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Doctor. » Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:38 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:
Doctor. wrote: This is wokespeak for "I don't want to debate your position because it makes me feel uncomfortable so I'm just gonna passive-aggressively show how I'm morally superior to you." Stop, be an adult, you're better than this. Either muster up a real response or leave your grandstanding at the door.
No, this is me calmly telling you that I find your reply to be rather ignorant and disturbing. I never said I didn't want to debate your position, although the onus is on you to explain why you think decade-long unwarranted advances deserve no more than a "slap on the wrist". Several people in this thread (including myself) have debated your position and fully elaborated on why this sort of behavior is intolerable.

I don't think you have the expertise to lecture me about adulthood if you couldn't go one post without spewing such a massively kneejerk response.
It isn't a kneejerk response to call out unnecessarily hostile behavior, which I consider assumptions of one's personality to be. I have already elaborated on my position above.

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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by SaintEvolution » Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:40 pm

The Jessie Pridemore's story with Todd Haberkorn made this entire to me more complicated, since Todd's side of the story seems to be the real truth. I prefer to not make any judgement, but it seems that with the Todd thing, Vic's side of the story gains a bit more of credibility.
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by ShadowBardock89 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:48 pm

SaintEvolution wrote:The Jessie Pridemore's story with Todd Haberkorn made this entire to me more complicated, since Todd's side of the story since to be the real truth. I prefer to not make any judgement, but it seems that with the Todd thing, Vic's side of the story gains a bit more of credibility.
Have you read Adam Sheehan's twitter thread (the "Adam" in Haberkorn's post)?
https://twitter.com/neumaverick/status/ ... 5006524416
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by SaintEvolution » Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:06 pm

ShadowBardock89 wrote:
SaintEvolution wrote:The Jessie Pridemore's story with Todd Haberkorn made this entire to me more complicated, since Todd's side of the story since to be the real truth. I prefer to not make any judgement, but it seems that with the Todd thing, Vic's side of the story gains a bit more of credibility.
Have you read Adam Sheehan's twitter thread (the "Adam" in Haberkorn's post)?
https://twitter.com/neumaverick/status/ ... 5006524416
Until now, no. But I will read it now.

EDIT.: I've read it now. There is some strong point on saying that Todd supposedly calculated his actions, but still there is no proff that he is a real rapist.

Also, Adam's tweet when he says this:
If Todd is “incredibly sensitive to anyone’s experiences w/abuse” why would he put this out in the middle of the hell Jessie is going through right now for speaking up? Why didn’t he focus this moment to speak up about Vic or other abusers or abuse he has been through?
Kinda doesn't make sense, since Jessie acused Todd, and fans were already knowing that Todd was the VA that wasn't mentioned by her, and he tried to defend himself, what I think it's fair in this case.
Last edited by SaintEvolution on Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Marlowe89 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:11 pm

Doctor. wrote: It isn't a kneejerk response to call out unnecessarily hostile behavior, which I consider assumptions of one's personality to be. I have already elaborated on my position above.
I didn't make any assumptions about your personality; I'm talking about your position. As far as I know, you're just ignorant about how McNugget's general creepiness perpetuates an especially uncomfortable environment for young women and girls, and why allowing that to have the faintest possibility of happening again is bad in less regulated places such as anime conventions, but there's nothing inherently wrong with ignorance in itself. We're all ignorant about something.

Your responses about "wokespeak" and my supposed refusal to debate with you because I'm uncomfortable seem more like stock reactions to a perceived SJW boogeyman than anything.
SaintEvolution wrote:The Jessie Pridemore's story with Todd Haberkorn made this entire to me more complicated, since Todd's side of the story since to be the real truth.
Yeah, the situation with Haberkorn and Pridemore is much less clear-cut than Vic's. I wouldn't say that Todd's side of the story is necessarily more legitimate, but it's a problem that seems heavily contingent on how people define "rape", its relationship to alcohol intoxication, and whether Jessie had actually blacked out that night.

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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Doctor. » Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:16 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:I didn't make any assumptions about your personality; I'm talking about your position. As far as I know, you're just ignorant about how McNugget's general creepiness perpetuates an especially uncomfortable environment for young women and girls, and why allowing that to have the faintest possibility of happening again is bad in less regulated places such as anime conventions, but there's nothing inherently wrong with ignorance in itself. We're all ignorant about something.

Your responses about "wokespeak" and my supposed refusal to debate with you because I'm uncomfortable seem more like stock reactions to a perceived SJW boogeyman than anything.
I didn't defend his behavior. I said I didn't agree with the ostracization he was receiving.

No, I don't use the term "SJW" (anymore) nor do I even argue with the progressive sort to begin with.

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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by TKA » Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:51 pm

Doctor. wrote:Reading the article, I don't see how anything he did constitutes sexual assault
Yes, most of what he did constitutes sexual assault. Touching someone in erogenous zones without their consent is sexual assault. Kissing someone without their consent is sexual assault. The kicker is, since many of these victims are minors, consent is impossible between them and a 40-50something year old man.
Creepy behavior and an indifference or ignorance toward personal boundaries, at the most; worthy of a slap on the wrist
No, no, and no. Men have been getting slaps on the wrist for this stuff for way too long; that's why it still happens so frequently.
but not the kind of ostracization he's being subject to.
That's just the thing though—he hasn't been subjected to any kind of ostracization. He's largely been unaffected by all of these claims against him that have been circulating for over ten years. He's had to face no recompense for his actions, while the victims have to live with the guilt, with the shame and with the feeling that they've been violated. I don't care about how Vic feels in this.
He seems to be guilty of being a creep, which is not all-together uncommon among men his age. Older men are inherently creepy to younger women.
There's so much to unpack here.

Our culture venerates the "pervy/creepy old man" stereotype far too much. Thankfully, nowadays it's mostly a relic you find in older movies and tv shows. There's a reason we've moved away from it: regardless of your age, sexual assault is sexual assault.

Age doesn't justify it, or make it okay. If you do it, regardless of your age, it's not something to be shrugged off.
The core problem is that he's being accused of sexual assault, a very serious accusation, for what seems to be a perfectly serviceable way to greet his fans, albeit a tad inappropriate considering the ages of some them.
Sexual assault is generally defined as "unwanted sexual contact". Consent is impossible given the girls' ages. This is sexual assault and it is not an acceptable way to greet anyone.

Vic himself knows this because I'm sure he knows of the rumors following him for over a decade, yet he hasn't changed how he interacts with fans. He knows the effect he's having on people, but hasn't deemed it necessary to stop doing the things people are complaining about. This is the behavior of a predator. It is in no way "a serviceable way to greet fans".
Is it sexual harassment? Perhaps. It's debatable. I don't care enough to argue for either side
There is no question that it is sexual harassment. It's 100%, unequivocally sexual harassment. There is no debate to be had. You kiss someone without their consent; it's harassment.

And, if you don't care enough as you say, then please don't share your opinion on this. All you're doing is being a provocateur.
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Marlowe89 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:05 pm

Doctor. wrote: I didn't defend his behavior. I said I didn't agree with the ostracization he was receiving.
That's what I'm addressing, dude.

I'll say it again and make it clearer this time: the idea that Vic deserves nothing more than a slap on the wrist is profoundly ignorant at best and downright unsettling at worst. This man has been banned from conventions all throughout the past decade, sometimes on multiple occasions within a single year. A light lecturing from his boss isn't a good solution to this problem. Nothing is a good solution outside of barring him from attending conventions altogether and quite possibly terminating him from the company. He's made Funimation a lot of money, but him still being there is inevitably going to tarnish them in the long run. He deserves all the ostracism he can get, particularly and ESPECIALLY when him still being allowed to remain on board puts his female fanbase at risk of being sexually harrassed and assaulted.

It honestly blows my mind that this needs to be explained to people.

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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Robo4900 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:38 pm

In regards to Haberkorn, his decision to make his post does seem very calculated, and good on Adam Sheehan for adding to the story.

FWIW: I think it's entirely possible both stories are true from the points of view of the people telling it. Whether it's the case remains to be seen, but it does seem to me that it's at least possible he simply didn't realise how drunk she was, he thought it was okay, and didn't have any idea how she felt about it until now. Negligence of this sort is still very harmful, but it could indeed ultimately be negligence rather than malice.
In such a case, it would be reasonable to assume Haberkorn simply got nervous that if he didn't jump on the story, he wouldn't have a chance to give his say until it's too late, so that could easily be just a case of him being negligent of what his actions imply.

But, this is still an unfolding story. We don't know if there are other people with stories about him, there may be more to the story that hasn't been told... It's hard to judge either way, so I think it's best to just wait and see, and simply hear out what everyone has to say.
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:47 pm

The fact that Hodd Taberkorn felt that it was necessary to jump into this conversation at all just goes to show that he wants to control the narrative. That's all rapists want: control. Taberkorn's response to Sheehan gives a perfect psychological profile of the guy: he thinks he's entitled to control the narrative. A victim spoke out, he got cold feel like the little coward that he is, and decided that even though Pridemore had no intent to publicize who it was that he had to slander her. Taberkorn is a piece of shit and I feel betrayed as a fan of his work as Spock. I hope other victims come forward and he gets tried and convicted, just like Mic Vignogna.
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Doctor. » Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:59 pm

I'm still not seeing it. A kiss on the cheek is an innocuous greeting in most of the western world. Could it leave someone uncomfortable? Sure, I don't doubt it, and I'm not discrediting anyone's account; if they felt uncomfortable, then so be it. But I'm also not willing to claim it analogous to sexual assault and charge every man who has ever kissed someone on the cheek as a borderline rapist. As to the claims that he's not being ostracized, that's just not true considering how many conventions he's being kicked out from and how many voice actors and coworkers are disavowing, distancing or outright insulting him. The guy may be an asshole, but I'm struggling to see the crime.

It's also pretty dismaying to call someone a provocateur because they don't agree to the premise of the discussion. This will be my last post on the subject matter. I gave my thoughts because I thought it was a pretty serious accusation that warranted a more nuanced response than what this thread was providing, but I honestly can't care enough to argue any further when people are getting heated over this. That's not meant to "provoke" or disparage the experiences of the women who spoke out, I just can't imagine myself caring about people I've never met on the other side of the planet, at least not such an extent as to continue this discussion.

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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by Robo4900 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:03 pm

To be clear on the Haberkorn thing, I'm not saying he's innocent, just that to anyone who's defending him, particularly anyone taking an attitude of siding against Pridemore, even in such a case, there are two sides to the story, and in this story, Pridemore is still the victim of something truly awful, even if Haberkorn didn't mean for that to be the case.

I feel like this is something that needs saying, and I'm not sure I articulated it best in my last post, is all.
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by SaintEvolution » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:29 pm

JulieYBM wrote:The fact that Hodd Taberkorn felt that it was necessary to jump into this conversation at all just goes to show that he wants to control the narrative. That's all rapists want: control. Taberkorn's response to Sheehan gives a perfect psychological profile of the guy: he thinks he's entitled to control the narrative. A victim spoke out, he got cold feel like the little coward that he is, and decided that even though Pridemore had no intent to publicize who it was that he had to slander her. Taberkorn is a piece of shit and I feel betrayed as a fan of his work as Spock. I hope other victims come forward and he gets tried and convicted, just like Mic Vignogna.
Sorry, but I think you are making precipitated conclusions.

Jessie's version of the story can be the truth, yes, that is a real possibility. But, there is no much connection between supposedly "wanting the narrative control" and "be a rapist".

There is no prove of anything until now to call both Jessie a lier, or Todd a rapist.
Doctor. wrote:I'm still not seeing it. A kiss on the cheek is an innocuous greeting in most of the western world. Could it leave someone uncomfortable? Sure, I don't doubt it, and I'm not discrediting anyone's account; if they felt uncomfortable, then so be it. But I'm also not willing to claim it analogous to sexual assault and charge every man who has ever kissed someone on the cheek as a borderline rapist. As to the claims that he's not being ostracized, that's just not true considering how many conventions he's being kicked out from and how many voice actors and coworkers are disavowing, distancing or outright insulting him. The guy may be an asshole, but I'm struggling to see the crime.

It's also pretty dismaying to call someone a provocateur because they don't agree to the premise of the discussion. This will be my last post on the subject matter. I gave my thoughts because I thought it was a pretty serious accusation that warranted a more nuanced response than what this thread was providing, but I honestly can't care enough to argue any further when people are getting heated over this. That's not meant to "provoke" or disparage the experiences of the women who spoke out, I just can't imagine myself caring about people I've never met on the other side of the planet, at least not such an extent as to continue this discussion.
Maybe Mignogna was too cloggy to his fans, without intentions of actually abusing them? Maybe, that is a possibility too.
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by superrayman3 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:34 pm

laserkid wrote:First of all, y'alls that keep calling Mike out, no one has been banned for disagreeing with him, even in this thread. He's just made counter arguments in disagreement. You guys are acting like him stating his own opinion is censorious or something and that's ridiculous on it's face.
The big issue people had with Mikes post, at least from what I understand is the fact that he was disregarding those posts without actually explaining his reasons for doing so (and to an extent I understand where they're coming from, and partially agree with those who pointed it out), I believe that's the main issue people are having with Mike here, I don't think anyone has a problem with him disregarding those posts, what they have a problem with is the fact he did so without explaining his reasons for doing so (I understand that there are some here who are defending Vic and the innocent until proven guilty stance to be trolls and they know that they're doing it just to troll, but on the same token, sometimes there are some users that don't fully understand and IMO there should be at least some context just in case some users honestly don't understand), just my .02 and if my assessment about this situation is wrong, then by all means feel free to let me know because I have been wrong in the past and will gladly admit such when it's pointed out to me.
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by AgitoZ » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:42 pm

Doctor. wrote:Is it sexual harassment? Perhaps. It's debatable. I don't care enough to argue for either side, but I can see how he was perhaps a bit too flirty and insistent to the point that they felt uncomfortable. Is it sexual assault? Now that's where you're losing me. I shouldn't think that unsuccessful and clumsy flirting (there was no groping of any sort, from what was described) is enough to illicit emotional and psychological trauma on someone, but apparently I'm wrong.
RAINN, the website and organization plugged at the end of the article, ironically would not define what he did as sexual assault.
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:45 pm

superrayman3 wrote:
laserkid wrote:First of all, y'alls that keep calling Mike out, no one has been banned for disagreeing with him, even in this thread. He's just made counter arguments in disagreement. You guys are acting like him stating his own opinion is censorious or something and that's ridiculous on it's face.
The big issue people had with Mikes post, at least from what I understand is the fact that he was disregarding those posts without actually explaining his reasons for doing so (and to an extent I understand where they're coming from, and partially agree with those who pointed it out), I believe that's the main issue people are having with Mike here, I don't think anyone has a problem with him disregarding those posts, what they have a problem with is the fact he did so without explaining his reasons for doing so (I understand that there are some here who are defending Vic and the innocent until proven guilty stance to be trolls and they know that they're doing it just to troll, but on the same token, sometimes there are some users that don't fully understand and IMO there should be at least some context just in case some users honestly don't understand), just my .02.
Yes, i've already reiterated more than once in this thread that the post i made was rather short sighted and naive on my part though i had never intended it to be in bad faith or malicious purpose. It's not so much that i take issue with him responding to it the way he did, though it would have definitely helped more if he'd provided why exactly he disagrees with my comment so i would be more enlightened as i'm one of those aforementioned people who really doesn't have a greater depth of understanding on the precise severity of this matter.
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Re: Vic Mignogna

Post by AgitoZ » Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:01 pm

JulieYBM wrote:The fact that Hodd Taberkorn felt that it was necessary to jump into this conversation at all just goes to show that he wants to control the narrative. That's all rapists want: control. Taberkorn's response to Sheehan gives a perfect psychological profile of the guy: he thinks he's entitled to control the narrative. A victim spoke out, he got cold feel like the little coward that he is, and decided that even though Pridemore had no intent to publicize who it was that he had to slander her. Taberkorn is a piece of shit and I feel betrayed as a fan of his work as Spock. I hope other victims come forward and he gets tried and convicted, just like Mic Vignogna.
It's odd how hard you're going against Haberkorn. He admits in his post that he himself was a sexual abuse victim. Why do you fully believe one victim but not another? You're overcompensating way too hard.
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