Sexual Assault: Fiction and Reality

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Sexual Assault: Fiction and Reality

Post by Danfun64 » Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:11 am

The Vic Mignanga incidents had me thinking about Master Roshi's perverseness. Regardless of whether you think Vic is a slime bucket or is "another victim" of #metoo , you're must likely taking the issue very seriously. Master Roshi, on the other hand, is usually played for laughs. Deep down he knows it isn't right, but that hasn't stopped him from, say, trying to tape Yurin. While he usually gets his comeuppance in the end (in the aforementioned example he gets kicked in the dragon balls and temporarily turned into a mindless zombie) he never stops bring a pervert. The main reason he wanted to control his perverted tendencies in the ToP arc was so he was more useful as a fighter... though I still doubt he's Nimbus material.

With that said, thanks to Roshi, sexual assault is a recurring gag in DB. It's making light of a rather disturbing issue. We've never heard anything of Roshi going to prison or whatever for his poor behavior or being a registered sex offender (except perhaps in DBZ Abridged). Sure, that's a bit extreme for a kids show, but what will become or Vic Mignanga? What he was said to have done isn't funny, and the consequences of his actions won't be as cathargic to us as the consequences of Roshi's actions are.

While Roshi (along with other things like Toei making General Blue a pedo as well as gay) was always a black mark on the DB Franchise as a whole, issues like with Vic bring things front and center.

My question for you all is, with all this in mind, has your view of the franchise changed? The Yurin episode is only a couple years old, for crying out loud!
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Re: Sexual Assault: Fiction and Reality

Post by Tian » Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:21 am

Well, I never found Roshi's sexual antics funny at all. I always felt them as forced humor. That's why the censorship of the scenes of his antics in Super by CN didn't bother me.
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Re: Sexual Assault: Fiction and Reality

Post by KBABZ » Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:33 am

I remember Kunzait had some very choice words on this subject last time it was brought up in regards to Roshi. For my part, I find most of it to be very unfunny and serve no point. The naughty magazines are fine I guess, but whenever Roshi moves on to sexual advances on Bulma it never works as a comedy bit. Even though Roshi gets comeuppance in almost every instance, the fact that none of the characters ever seem to hold it against him (except Bulma, his primary victim) is also strange and when you think about it quite disturbing. It's even worse in early Dragon Ball where Roshi behaves that way around underage children as if that was socially okay.

To put in a more positive modern example, I don't think I'm the only one who felt that the scene in the S-Broly movie where the drunk Frieza Soldier approached Cheelai had some sexual undertones to it, so it was nice to see Broly show his kind character by standing up for her and driving the drunk away for his deservedly heinous behaviour (I know the Frieza soldier is technically a villain, but there's a big difference to me between Frieza and, say, Cui, in terms of villainy).

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Re: Sexual Assault: Fiction and Reality

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:35 am

You're looking for a connection where none exists. Video games don't make kids murderers and erotica or stupid jokes don't make people rapists.
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Re: Sexual Assault: Fiction and Reality

Post by Tavarano » Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:45 am

My view hasn't changed, matter of fact is that Toriyama is writing it to be immoral that way on purpose, or at least I conclude so from his interviews where he mentioned that there is poison hidden inside Dragon Ball, say BoG movie where drunk Gohan shoots his pregnant wife and the scene is played for laughs or in the Broly movie you get Goku making excuses to not kill Frieza and a scene where Frieza returns to his annihilating milions of beings business, Toriyama might have toned town on sexual stuff due to times having changed, but he still managed to sneak in that one pedophiliac relationship in Trunks and Mai.
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Re: Sexual Assault: Fiction and Reality

Post by PacificOceanDub » Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:57 am

My opinion of Dragon Ball and the sexual humor within is 100% unchanged. There’s an audience for everything, folks, that’s just the way it is. Some people, myself included, think the Roshi antics are downright hilarious. Does that make me a bad person? Look up GG Allin, for cryin’ our cupcakes. The dude made a living and gained a legitimate following by taking craps and vomiting on stage. He also had a bunch of haters, as you can probably imagine. I guarantee you that for everyone who thinks that the Sexual humor in DB is bad and wrong and dated, there is an equal and opposite bunch who think it’s funny.
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Re: Sexual Assault: Fiction and Reality

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:16 am

I think there is a huge difference between Roshi looking at skin mags and wanting Lunch to live at his place “for company” or Roshi wanting to poke a 16-year old girl’s tits or trying to grope a young woman’s ass without her consent.

That said Oolong as Bulma flirting with and exposing “herself” to Roshi is still one of the funnier scenes in early Dragon Ball so I dunno

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Re: Sexual Assault: Fiction and Reality

Post by Saikyo no Senshi » Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:30 am

It stands out like a sore thumb. It literally has nothing to do with the rest of Dragon Ball. The dismissal of Roshi's behaviour as lighthearted fun is deeply problematic for obvious reasons. I can only hope that it doesn't occur again in future stories, but who even knows. The Yurin thing as you said was only 2 yrs.ago.

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Re: Sexual Assault: Fiction and Reality

Post by Tavarano » Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:49 am

Saikyo no Senshi wrote:It literally has nothing to do with the rest of Dragon Ball.The dismissal of Roshi's behaviour as lighthearted fun is deeply problematic for obvious reasons.
Why do you think so? What about this scene?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATye-wK3Szk
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Re: Sexual Assault: Fiction and Reality

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:59 am

Tavarano wrote:
Saikyo no Senshi wrote:It literally has nothing to do with the rest of Dragon Ball.The dismissal of Roshi's behaviour as lighthearted fun is deeply problematic for obvious reasons.
Why do you think so? What about this scene?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATye-wK3Szk
I don’t get what the point you’re even trying to make is?

Nothing in that clip was comparable to some of Roshi’s more lecherous moments in Dragon Ball. He offers to give Videl mouth to mouth and while its pervy he’s also offering instead of just taking it upon himself to do so.

If you’re trying to compare Gohan carelessly ricocheting bullets off his finger (that he didn’t even realize were actual bullets at first) and one of them accidentally hitting Videl to any scene of Roshi sexually harassing or attempting to grope women without their consent? No just no. The two aren’t comparable at all. One is a completely cartoony scene that will never be replicated in real life and one is a something women (and even some men) have to deal with all the time in real life.

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Re: Sexual Assault: Fiction and Reality

Post by Tavarano » Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:10 am

MasenkoHA wrote:I don’t get what the point you’re even trying to make is?
The previous poster said that it has nothing to do with the rest of Dragon Ball, I make an argument that it has a lot to do with the rest of Dragon Ball conceptually, Roshi's sexual assault is dismissed as lighthearted fun just like Gohan's drunkiness leading to Videl getting shot is dismissed as lighthearted fun, and there's plenty of other things like this, the domestic violence moment, Goku admitting to never having kissed ChiChi, characters having a barbecue after Trunks' timeline gets erased, characters agreeing to let androids be created, sodomization of Murasaki.
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Re: Sexual Assault: Fiction and Reality

Post by Gligarman » Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:40 am

Where I defend Roshi is when he’s portrayed as a douche for his actions. 90% of time this is the case because he’s generally punished immediately. I usually find his antics pretty funny in these cases. But the only time it ever genuinely made me uncomfortable was a scene in the anime version Dragon Ball Super. He forces a girl to where a skimpy outfit against her will and proceeds to chase her around. What the hell was he going to do if he caught her? That should NEVER occur in this show. The timing was off by a mile in that episode.

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Re: Sexual Assault: Fiction and Reality

Post by Metalwario64 » Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:52 am

Gligarman wrote:Where I defend Roshi is when he’s portrayed as a douche for his actions. 90% of time this is the case because he’s generally punished immediately. I usually find his antics pretty funny in these cases. But the only time it ever genuinely made me uncomfortable was a scene in the anime version Dragon Ball Super. He forces a girl to where a skimpy outfit against her will and proceeds to chase her around. What the hell was he going to do if he caught her? That should NEVER occur in this show. The timing was off by a mile in that episode.
Yeah, I usually find Roshi's blunt and unashamed perversion decently funny, but in that episode of Super they completely missed the point and made him feel like a real sexual predator.
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Re: Sexual Assault: Fiction and Reality

Post by GreatJaiyaman » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:39 am

How many people here watch South Park or Family Guy? Those shows are intentionally dirty and theres a huge audience for it. Anything on Dragonball is VERY tame compared to those shows. Some people are just too sensitive and want to find something to complain about. In the age of social media, everyone has a platform to complain just for the sake of complaining.
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Re: Sexual Assault: Fiction and Reality

Post by KBABZ » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:44 am

GreatJaiyaman wrote:How many people here watch South Park or Family Guy? Those shows are intentionally dirty and theres a huge audience for it. Anything on Dragonball is VERY tame compared to those shows. Some people are just too sensitive and want to find something to complain about. In the age of social media, everyone has a platform to complain just for the sake of complaining.
I think the difference is that South Park is inherently a parodistic show, whereas Dragon Ball hasn't been that way since Goku destroyed Pilaf's castle, and is supposed to be more wholesome than South Park. They also have very different target audiences.

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Re: Sexual Assault: Fiction and Reality

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:48 am

GreatJaiyaman wrote:How many people here watch South Park or Family Guy? Those shows are intentionally dirty and theres a huge audience for it. Anything on Dragonball is VERY tame compared to those shows. Some people are just too sensitive and want to find something to complain about. In the age of social media, everyone has a platform to complain just for the sake of complaining.
Dragon Ball is also a kids show. South Park and Family Guy are not. This is a terrible comparison

Also most of the rape jokes on Family Guy aren’t the least bit funny as the joke is usually “Ha Rape!”

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Re: Sexual Assault: Fiction and Reality

Post by GreatJaiyaman » Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:48 am

KBABZ wrote:
GreatJaiyaman wrote:How many people here watch South Park or Family Guy? Those shows are intentionally dirty and theres a huge audience for it. Anything on Dragonball is VERY tame compared to those shows. Some people are just too sensitive and want to find something to complain about. In the age of social media, everyone has a platform to complain just for the sake of complaining.
I think the difference is that South Park is inherently a parodistic show, whereas Dragon Ball hasn't been that way since Goku destroyed Pilaf's castle, and is supposed to be more wholesome than South Park. They also have very different target audiences.
I could make the argument that Dragonball Super outside of Japan has a similar target audience as Family Guy and South park. It's on Adult Swim, and last year had a brief stint on primetime 8:00 on cartoon network which is usually reserved for similar shows like family guy. I think Toei knows its overseas market is a bunch of twenty and thirty somethings who grew up with the show and are now adults. As for Japan, it's a much different culture over there and is marketed for kids.
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Re: Sexual Assault: Fiction and Reality

Post by Robo4900 » Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:49 am

KBABZ wrote:I remember Kunzait had some very choice words on this subject last time it was brought up in regards to Roshi. For my part, I find most of it to be very unfunny and serve no point. The naughty magazines are fine I guess, but whenever Roshi moves on to sexual advances on Bulma it never works as a comedy bit. Even though Roshi gets comeuppance in almost every instance, the fact that none of the characters ever seem to hold it against him (except Bulma, his primary victim) is also strange and when you think about it quite disturbing. It's even worse in early Dragon Ball where Roshi behaves that way around underage children as if that was socially okay.

To put in a more positive modern example, I don't think I'm the only one who felt that the scene in the S-Broly movie where the drunk Frieza Soldier approached Cheelai had some sexual undertones to it, so it was nice to see Broly show his kind character by standing up for her and driving the drunk away for his deservedly heinous behaviour (I know the Frieza soldier is technically a villain, but there's a big difference to me between Frieza and, say, Cui, in terms of villainy).
I agree.

I'm not a fan of censorship, but when all three dubs of OG DB censor Roshi's antics to various degrees, I'm not going to lose any sleep over that... Roshi is a highly uncomfortable part of Dragon Ball, and it would be great if his antics were toned down for the modern material. Instead, we get stuff like that thing with the girl joining Tenshinhan's dojo in the TOP arc(Yurin, was it?), which is in my opinion the worst Roshi scene so far... And that's just damn disappointing. Why can't we get more of the wise sensei who spends too much time reading swimsuit magazines and watching exercise videos? Instead, we get "haha hey look guys old man is chasing this girl around despite her protests and very clearly wants to get feely with her! funny jokes right?... guys?... okay maybe you didn't hear me, so here it is again, but even more explicit. no? still not laughing? okay, whatever, we'll try again later."
JulieYBM wrote:You're looking for a connection where none exists. Video games don't make kids murderers and erotica or stupid jokes don't make people rapists.
Media indeed does not make people get violent, become predators, etc., but that doesn't mean such things can't be a highly uncomfortable part of something that people wish would just not be like that anymore...
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Re: Sexual Assault: Fiction and Reality

Post by Saikyo no Senshi » Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:11 am

GreatJaiyaman wrote: As for Japan, it's a much different culture over there and is marketed for kids.
DBS demo is the same in Japan. 20-40 yr. old men mainly. Source: viewtopic.php?t=42891
But, that means nothing and not at all why I find Roshi's antics bad. Gross shit is gross shit, regardless of demographics.

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Re: Sexual Assault: Fiction and Reality

Post by Robo4900 » Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:28 pm

Saikyo no Senshi wrote:
GreatJaiyaman wrote: As for Japan, it's a much different culture over there and is marketed for kids.
DBS demo is the same in Japan. 20-40 yr. old men mainly. Source: viewtopic.php?t=42891
Statistics can be quite deceptive, though. The 30-39 bracket is 26%, but that is only 26%. The 5-19 group added up makes for 30%, which is significantly bigger than the 30-39 group.

These viewing age rating numbers are pretty easy to fudge to whatever narrrative you want to tell with the numbers, though. For instance, 58% of viewers in the first group of numbers are in the 30-69 age range, therefore Dragon Ball is for adults and middle-aged people. However, 56% of viewers are in the 10-39 range, therefore Dragon Ball is for kids, teens, and adults. In the second group of numbers, 70% of viewers are under 40, and over half of the under-40 viewers are under 30. The numbers are all pretty close, so it's super-easy to fudge depending on how you group it, and you can do all kinds of mental gymnastics to further pretty much any preconceived idea. The poster of that thread demonstrates this, mixed with incorrect terminology, to fudge things very strongly to their view on the narrative; they say "The majority is 30-39 yr olds", which is pointedly not correct, as a majority is >50%. No single one of those individual age ranges is higher than 26%, so there is no single overall majority. But, as I just demonstrated, you can break this down however you like to tell whatever narrative you like.

The truth is, Dragon Ball is a family show; it gets decent numbers in all the demographics, and it's such a cultural phenomenon, pretty much everyone is aware of it, and has been from a young age. It's like what Doctor Who is to British culture, though on a timescale about 20 years shorter.
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