Do you still care about the end of Z?

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Re: Do you still care about the end of Z?

Post by Chuquita » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:22 pm

Thinking about it, if they were to partial retcon....I'd like to see Pan included as one of Gokû's students too, if they're intent on keeping Gokû teaches Uub. The idea of teacher Gokû is a thing I'm not a fan of (I prefer him as the eternal student) but I could deal better if Pan doesn't get pushed to the side for Uub and gets to learn from Gokû too.
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Re: Do you still care about the end of Z?

Post by KBABZ » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:52 pm

ABED wrote:
Goten_jr wrote:Are they actually some contradictions between EoZ&DBS?
I would argue there is a huge one. The end of Z is about Goku looking forward to the future because Uub is the reincarnation of the strongest being he ever faced. In Super, we see numerous beings that are WAY stronger than Buu ever was, thus robbing DBZ's ending of its meaning.
Personally I don't think so: Uub was able to give Goku a run for his money in the brief time we saw him fight in either version of the ending, so for me that implied that Uub was in fact far stronger than Buu was.

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Re: Do you still care about the end of Z?

Post by ABED » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:54 pm

KBABZ wrote:
ABED wrote:
Goten_jr wrote:Are they actually some contradictions between EoZ&DBS?
I would argue there is a huge one. The end of Z is about Goku looking forward to the future because Uub is the reincarnation of the strongest being he ever faced. In Super, we see numerous beings that are WAY stronger than Buu ever was, thus robbing DBZ's ending of its meaning.
Personally I don't think so: Uub was able to give Goku a run for his money in the brief time we saw him fight in either version of the ending, so for me that implied that Uub was in fact far stronger than Buu was.
Goku's holding back. He knows Uub is green so he's not using anywhere close to full power even in his base form.
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Re: Do you still care about the end of Z?

Post by ZodaEX » Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:39 pm

Goten_jr wrote:
ZodaEX wrote:
Goten_jr wrote:Would you mind a EOZ retcon? or Should they finally go past the EOZ?
Would I mind a EOZ retcon? Well it depends on how it's handled. I personally don't give a toot about the Manga versions myself, so if the retcon was exclusive, then I wouldn't mind, as I personally don't follow the manga.
If it was a Toei anime retcon, again it depends how it was handled. I'm okay with retconning GT, because I personally view it as a joke and can't take it seriously at all, therefore I would not care. The Z anime on the other hand, I would personally prefer that they attempt to not retcon any of it, but that's just my personal opinion of it all.
Isn‘t GT considered to be a Alternate Continuation?This wouldn’t even be a "GT retcon" because it’s not part of the main Story
That depends on who you ask. If you're asking me I would say I don't know what the "main story" is, and I don't care either.

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Re: Do you still care about the end of Z?

Post by TheZFighter » Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:44 am

The more I read of this thread the more I realise them changing end of Z really isn't an issue.
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Re: Do you still care about the end of Z?

Post by emperior » Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:51 am

I love the ending of the manga. It has grown a lot on me over the years, so much that I consider it to be the perfect ending for Dragon Ball.
But if they decided to get over it with Super I wouldn’t care, and I would actually be happy. The ending always felt like the start of a new story to me, and I would love to see Goku training Uub.
I also believe that it would be in the best interest of Super for it to finally become a sequel to the manga and not a midquel which milks the 10 years gap as much as possible. Super taking place in the gap is not even a bad idea in my opinion, as it makes sense for Toriyama to get some stories out of the period, but then it wouldn’t explain just why Battle of Gods had to take place years after Buu’s defeat while the other stories are all taking place in AGE 779-780.

I also miss how the time-skips the original manga had.
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Re: Do you still care about the end of Z?

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:14 am

Well, yeah, it's the conclusion of Dragon Ball's original story, and I'd like for it to retain it's original integrity as much as possible.

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Re: Do you still care about the end of Z?

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:36 am

I care about it because it's part of Toriyama's original vision, but as said previously you can separate modern Dragon Ball from classic Dragon Ball if you wish. The two versions are very clearly separate products at this stage, so if end of Z is retconned to fit with Super's continuity I will watch it with an open mind and if it doesn't work it's all good because the original will still be there on my shelves.
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Re: Do you still care about the end of Z?

Post by Lunaar » Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:37 pm

I think the real question is... why did they keep EoZ in Kai if they were just going to retcon it later? In fact, they'd arguably retconned it as soon as Pan was born in RoF, as she's four years old by the time EoZ happens... and according to Bulma, she hadn't seen Son in "five years" - thus messing up events before Super was even on-air. So what gives?

Lazy answer: We give Toei too much credit for planning ahead. They're basically just writing themselves into a corner out of sheer indifference for consistency.

It is worth mentioning that Uub has already been foreshadowed before the ToP began, so they do plan on coming back to that dangling thread, at least.
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Re: Do you still care about the end of Z?

Post by ZodaEX » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:35 pm

Lunaar wrote:I think the real question is... why did they keep EoZ in Kai if they were just going to retcon it later? In fact, they'd arguably retconned it as soon as Pan was born in RoF, as she's four years old by the time EoZ happens... and according to Bulma, she hadn't seen Son in "five years" - thus messing up events before Super was even on-air. So what gives?

Lazy answer: We give Toei too much credit for planning ahead. They're basically just writing themselves into a corner out of sheer indifference for consistency.

It is worth mentioning that Uub has already been foreshadowed before the ToP began, so they do plan on coming back to that dangling thread, at least.
Which EOZ are you talking about?

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Re: Do you still care about the end of Z?

Post by KBABZ » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:54 pm

Lunaar wrote:I think the real question is... why did they keep EoZ in Kai if they were just going to retcon it later?
Because it was easier to keep the ending as it was than animate a new one. And I guess nobody thought about adjusting Bulma's line or anything like that.

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Re: Do you still care about the end of Z?

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:03 pm

KBABZ wrote:
Lunaar wrote:I think the real question is... why did they keep EoZ in Kai if they were just going to retcon it later?
Because it was easier to keep the ending as it was than animate a new one. And I guess nobody thought about adjusting Bulma's line or anything like that.
They didn't need to create a new ending. They could have just ended Kai with Kid Buu's defeat and the erasure of Earth's memories and it would have flowed naturally into the recap on the first episode of Super.
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Re: Do you still care about the end of Z?

Post by ABED » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:25 pm

You make it sound like Kai was meant to usurp Z. It's just a recut of the show.
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Re: Do you still care about the end of Z?

Post by Lunaar » Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:35 pm

ABED wrote:You make it sound like Kai was meant to usurp Z. It's just a recut of the show.
In a bubble, I would agree with you - but Dragon Ball Super literally premiered the week after Kai's "Final Chapters" finished airing in Japan, as if it were a continuation of the show for fresh-faced viewers. Similarly, GT premiered in the same fashion, though GT didn't really strive to outright change anything from the original material.

EDIT; additional response:
Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: They didn't need to create a new ending. They could have just ended Kai with Kid Buu's defeat and the erasure of Earth's memories and it would have flowed naturally into the recap on the first episode of Super.
Kinda my point here. I would've preferred this, given how it was presented and how it's supposed to fit into the timeline - not to mention, basically every flashback used Kai footage unless it was necessary to find clips from older material.
[spoiler]
Lord Beerus wrote:This episode was truly the greatest thing ever. Fuck power scaling. Fuck consistency. Future Trunks manages to do more damage and kill an immortal God with a genki dama sword while SSJB Vegetto can't get the job done. Amazing. Never change Dragon Ball. You're truly one of a kind.
ABED wrote:Canon penis and filler penis :shock:
[/spoiler]
Gogegito wrote:Gotenks said "I cant let him fight just like that, please trunks help me, he's my brother" And trunks also had undesrstanding eyes.
Ajay wrote:It's probably savagely lit. I dunno.
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Re: Do you still care about the end of Z?

Post by ABED » Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:41 pm

The events of GT pick up after Z. Super takes place in between. GT didn't change anything.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Do you still care about the end of Z?

Post by PFM18 » Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:51 pm

Dragon Ball Ireland wrote:I care about it because it's part of Toriyama's original vision, but as said previously you can separate modern Dragon Ball from classic Dragon Ball if you wish. The two versions are very clearly separate products at this stage, so if end of Z is retconned to fit with Super's continuity I will watch it with an open mind and if it doesn't work it's all good because the original will still be there on my shelves.
They aren't really separate. This is a continuation of Toriyama's story after the Buu arc but before the epilogue. The last actual arc was the Buu arc, and the entirety of Super takes place after it. And Super is based on the original story, so in that respect it isn't separate.

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Re: Do you still care about the end of Z?

Post by ABED » Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:55 pm

I think he's being concrete. Any changes Super makes to the original can be hermetically sealed since the original is still there. Super's changes don't physically change Toriyama's manga. To use Star Wars as a counterexample, Lucasfilm made actual changes to their movies and you can't find good releases containing the original footage.
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Re: Do you still care about the end of Z?

Post by ulisa » Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:43 pm

I’ve never been a huge fan of Z’s Ending. Do I think they’ll change it? Probably not but I wouldn’t be opposed if they did. Granted, the ending with Uub can still work but I think a new ending would get rid of the post-TOP questions (how is Uub a challenge for Goku now, etc) Not saying those questions don’t have answers but eh, they don’t seem satisfying answers for me.

Plus, I’ve just never been fond of the idea of Uub. Don’t hate him but just never really cared for him, mainly because I think the role he serves—a potential successor/student for Goku would have been better served by using Pan in his place.
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Re: Do you still care about the end of Z?

Post by ABED » Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:12 pm

ulisa wrote:Plus, I’ve just never been fond of the idea of Uub. Don’t hate him but just never really cared for him, mainly because I think the role he serves—a potential successor/student for Goku would have been better served by using Pan in his place.
I think people make a bigger deal out of that role than they should. Uub's role in the finale isn't about being a future successor to Goku. Goku's excited because there are still more mountains to climb. In that way, I like what Uub represents, but I don't care for the character.
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Re: Do you still care about the end of Z?

Post by KBABZ » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:41 am

ABED wrote:
ulisa wrote:Plus, I’ve just never been fond of the idea of Uub. Don’t hate him but just never really cared for him, mainly because I think the role he serves—a potential successor/student for Goku would have been better served by using Pan in his place.
I think people make a bigger deal out of that role than they should. Uub's role in the finale isn't about being a future successor to Goku. Goku's excited because there are still more mountains to climb. In that way, I like what Uub represents, but I don't care for the character.
I agree here. Goku's excitement stems not from gaining a student, but gaining an opponent. This is the same reason why Goku spared Piccolo Jr. and Frieza and asked Krillin to spare Vegeta, among other examples. Not liking Uub is understandable: he only got two Chapters worth of pagetime so there was no chance to develop and explore his character.

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