Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

Jhanzie
Newbie
Posts: 32
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:50 am

Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by Jhanzie » Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:42 am

Lightningexpose wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:23 pm
Jhanzie wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:26 pm Lightningexpose:
What is your opinion of what an ideal HD home video presentation of DBZ should be? How do you think it should be scanned, restored, and processed... to go from looking like a jacked up grindhouse film to a pristine HD anime? Sorry to put you on the spot, but I would like to hear your opinion.
No worries, it's not a difficult to just say ideals.

If it's Toei:
-Go back to the negatives
-4K scan (HDR/log scan if it's dark and contrasty) (not by Qtec, ideally an American scanning company--this is normal for many anime)
-Clean up dust/dirt/stains/scratches/tapemarks and stabilise+deflicker (they did all this for DBox so it's not as crazy as it sounds)
--------Though I'm not saying they need to absolutely clean it up to perfection, some jitter and dirt doesn't hurt imo
-Colour correct by first balancing all tinting and then dynamic range and vibrancy similar to Kai/Cels, but should be more consistent than Kai. Kai had lots of inconsistency. People who still question this colour correction and think it's an attempt to modernise should probably take a look at some original broadcast Fuji TV VHS/betamax caps:
Obviously that's old deteriorated LQ videotape footage with issues like too low saturation and a bit of overexposure but if you mentally compensate for it you should be able to tell you end up with something that looks a lot closer to Kai than it does to level sets.
-Since it's from the negatives noise reduction might not be needed but if dynamic range restoration has led to amplified grain then some reduction might be in order. This isn't saying create a grainless product, but trust me post-CC grain can get kind of ugly. There are ways to CC that doesn't affect grain at all but I wouldn't expect this level from them.
-Crop to 4:3 similar to level sets, maintaining as much footage as possible in the framing
-Keep 4K master to stay future proof for when 4K tv series releases becomes normal, but for now downsize it to 2K for Blu-ray and hire the best Blu-ray compressionist in Japan


If it's funimation:
-Everything like above except HDR/log scanning should be essential just because their multigen prints are way darker and so it's better to lift as much as you can from the crushed blacks of the saiyan arc prints

Though colour correction can come before the film cleanup step, from my experience with really old and damaged film, it's easier to CC once flickering and coloured stains etc have been removed, as well as chroma noise/grain. The Pink Panther Blu-rays did a nice job keeping grain but removing all the chroma noise.
Thank you for your detailed response.

DBZ in 4K... now that will be the day! I wonder if Toei or FUNi has any interest? My gut says “no” with FUNi because they don’t even want to invest their resources on a regular HD restoration, and maybe no with Toei too. They have already done the Dragon Box and the Kai remastering, and now FUNi has got their version in the US, Canada, and UK. Maybe another 10 years from now? A new generation in the market for a home video release, and the collectors ready to shell out money again.

I do think it would be smart to release the Dragon Boxes in SD BD. The work is already done and there is a market for it!

User avatar
jjgp1112
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 7478
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:15 pm
Location: Crooklyn

Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by jjgp1112 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:16 am

Jhanzie wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:09 am
Scsigs wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:25 pm
Jhanzie wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:16 pm Using more DNR takes these away but also the natural film grain, making it look less like a film restoration... and less like the level sets. The DNR w/sharpener makes it look more like it was seen originally, on a standard definition CRT TV, bright colors and bold lines. Which is the controversy. A movie that you see in the theatre is restored for BD to look like it was seen in the theater... so a cartoon you saw on TV in the 90’s should be restored HOW? DBZ didn’t look like the Level Sets on TV, as well as the film itself did not LOOK like the animation cells. I would like to see a VIDEO comparison between the color corrected scans and the 30th. Just to see how bad it looked before the video processing.
Dude, that's some of the most advanced mental gymnastics I've seen yet in regards to FUNi's remasters. Good job! :thumbup:
It’s just seeing things in a positive light. The other extreme perspective is that the 30th is unwatchable garbage, which has been thoroughly expounded already. It’s good to look at it from both ways, and people who browse the forum can decide for themselves if they want to make a purchase.
I'm all for making things positive, but what you said made absolutely no sense.

The whole premise is that DVNR w/ sharpener is how it looked like on CRT TV and um...HOW did you come to this conclusion? CRTVs aren't that freaking ancient. My poor ass was still using standard definition TVs until 2016. At no point did Dragon Ball or other animated shows on TV look as pastel like and processed as the season BDs/30 sets unless that's how the studio deliberately made it look like.

Just, what....?! You made a ridiculous leap in logic based on a premise that is straight up false.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
Cold World (Fanfic)
"It ain't never too late to stop bein' a bitch." - Chad Lamont Butler

Jhanzie
Newbie
Posts: 32
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:50 am

Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by Jhanzie » Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:43 am

jjgp1112 wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:16 am
Jhanzie wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:09 am
Scsigs wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:25 pm
Dude, that's some of the most advanced mental gymnastics I've seen yet in regards to FUNi's remasters. Good job! :thumbup:
It’s just seeing things in a positive light. The other extreme perspective is that the 30th is unwatchable garbage, which has been thoroughly expounded already. It’s good to look at it from both ways, and people who browse the forum can decide for themselves if they want to make a purchase.
I'm all for making things positive, but what you said made absolutely no sense.

The whole premise is that DVNR w/ sharpener is how it looked like on CRT TV and um...HOW did you come to this conclusion? CRTVs aren't that freaking ancient. My poor ass was still using standard definition TVs until 2016. At no point did Dragon Ball or other animated shows on TV look as pastel like and processed as the season BDs/30 sets unless that's how the studio deliberately made it look like.

Just, what....?! You made a ridiculous leap in logic based on a premise that is straight up false.
Well I can’t go back in time to see a live broadcast on my CRT TV. What I can do is compare the Dragon Box DVD to the 30th. So maybe I should have explained myself better.

The Dragon Box and the 30th sets look very similar in SD. The major complaints about the 30th are the DNR, and that is not nearly as noticeable in SD, if even at all. Also the color is not exact, but very similar. The Dragon Box has a pink tint that is noticeable in skin tones, and sometimes a green tint. But yes, the overall presentation is very similar when watched in SD.

People talk about the Dragon Boxes as being the most honest presentation of DBZ that is the least futzed with, which is why they fetch such a high price. So seeing the Dragon Box on a CRT TV would be the best reproduction of watching it when it originally aired, yes?

I can’t take a screen shot of my TV screen, so really one would have to have both sets and a CRT TV and see for themselves!

Lightningexpose
Banned
Posts: 91
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:57 am

Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by Lightningexpose » Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:08 am

Jhanzie wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:42 am Thank you for your detailed response.

DBZ in 4K... now that will be the day! I wonder if Toei or FUNi has any interest? My gut says “no” with FUNi because they don’t even want to invest their resources on a regular HD restoration, and maybe no with Toei too. They have already done the Dragon Box and the Kai remastering, and now FUNi has got their version in the US, Canada, and UK. Maybe another 10 years from now? A new generation in the market for a home video release, and the collectors ready to shell out money again.

I do think it would be smart to release the Dragon Boxes in SD BD. The work is already done and there is a market for it!
Well, like I say it's not normal now at all to release TV Series in 4K but it may be in the future, so if they were to do any kind of remastering now in 2020 they may as well do it all in 4K and stay future proof.

4K scanning and remastering for a 2K BD release isn't unusual and has been done for a number of things, such as Cardcaptor Sakura tv series. 4K scanning isn't as expensive as it used to be. If they knew where to look, they could get away with scanning all 291 episodes for merely $100,000 USD. But if they go with more normal pricing, it'd cost them just under $300,000 USD for 4K scanning. This isn't that big of an investment, as you see Funimation made $1,000,000 in revenue from just 3,000 sales of their 30th Anniversary release.

And you're mistaken, Funimation have invested their resources into regular HD restoration. The 30A/steelbooks have been fully restored (except for some deleted frames) and heck some parts of the restoration are even better than the level sets' restoration, when it comes to tapemark removal etc. Funimation just insulted their restoration by applying crappy "enhancement" filters on top. So no, Funimation have already invested in and completed a 2K HD restoration. Toei is another story. Kei17 used to claim Toei saw no point in giving their 16mm shows Blu-rays because their 16mm remasters looked blurry. But, with Toei's recent remasters of the Z TV specials which don't look blurry at all and are 16mm, it's possible Toei have found a way of remastering where they think DBZ is worth putting on Blu-ray and might be working on it as we speak. At least I hope /shrug

User avatar
jjgp1112
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 7478
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:15 pm
Location: Crooklyn

Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by jjgp1112 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:48 am

Jhanzie wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:43 am
jjgp1112 wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:16 am
Jhanzie wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:09 am

It’s just seeing things in a positive light. The other extreme perspective is that the 30th is unwatchable garbage, which has been thoroughly expounded already. It’s good to look at it from both ways, and people who browse the forum can decide for themselves if they want to make a purchase.
I'm all for making things positive, but what you said made absolutely no sense.

The whole premise is that DVNR w/ sharpener is how it looked like on CRT TV and um...HOW did you come to this conclusion? CRTVs aren't that freaking ancient. My poor ass was still using standard definition TVs until 2016. At no point did Dragon Ball or other animated shows on TV look as pastel like and processed as the season BDs/30 sets unless that's how the studio deliberately made it look like.

Just, what....?! You made a ridiculous leap in logic based on a premise that is straight up false.
Well I can’t go back in time to see a live broadcast on my CRT TV. What I can do is compare the Dragon Box DVD to the 30th. So maybe I should have explained myself better.

The Dragon Box and the 30th sets look very similar in SD. The major complaints about the 30th are the DNR, and that is not nearly as noticeable in SD, if even at all. Also the color is not exact, but very similar. The Dragon Box has a pink tint that is noticeable in skin tones, and sometimes a green tint. But yes, the overall presentation is very similar when watched in SD.
I know what you were trying to say, and again - no, they don't. Like I said, I had a CRTV until 2016. Unless whatever CRTV you watched it on had the sharpness turned all the way up, the Dragon Box never ONCE looked like the 30th set on my old TV. That's just straight up incorrect. A CRTV with proper settings will still correctly show how a 480p video should look. Your premise is straight up fiction.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
Cold World (Fanfic)
"It ain't never too late to stop bein' a bitch." - Chad Lamont Butler

Jhanzie
Newbie
Posts: 32
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:50 am

Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by Jhanzie » Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:09 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:48 am
Jhanzie wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:43 am
jjgp1112 wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:16 am

I'm all for making things positive, but what you said made absolutely no sense.

The whole premise is that DVNR w/ sharpener is how it looked like on CRT TV and um...HOW did you come to this conclusion? CRTVs aren't that freaking ancient. My poor ass was still using standard definition TVs until 2016. At no point did Dragon Ball or other animated shows on TV look as pastel like and processed as the season BDs/30 sets unless that's how the studio deliberately made it look like.

Just, what....?! You made a ridiculous leap in logic based on a premise that is straight up false.
Well I can’t go back in time to see a live broadcast on my CRT TV. What I can do is compare the Dragon Box DVD to the 30th. So maybe I should have explained myself better.

The Dragon Box and the 30th sets look very similar in SD. The major complaints about the 30th are the DNR, and that is not nearly as noticeable in SD, if even at all. Also the color is not exact, but very similar. The Dragon Box has a pink tint that is noticeable in skin tones, and sometimes a green tint. But yes, the overall presentation is very similar when watched in SD.
I know what you were trying to say, and again - no, they don't. Like I said, I had a CRTV until 2016. Unless whatever CRTV you watched it on had the sharpness turned all the way up, the Dragon Box never ONCE looked like the 30th set on my old TV. That's just straight up incorrect. A CRTV with proper settings will still correctly show how a 480p video should look. Your premise is straight up fiction.
Sooooo... you had a CRTV in 2016 and the 30th came out in 2019, and so you’ve never seen the 30th on a CRTV? That is the premise of my reasoning here. If you haven’t seen the 30th on an old TV you don’t have anything to agree or disagree with, because you haven’t seen it.

They also look very similar projected from my 720p projector. The lines are clear and focused, the colors subdued and not over saturated. And again, the lower resolution masks the side effect of the DNR.

User avatar
jjgp1112
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 7478
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:15 pm
Location: Crooklyn

Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by jjgp1112 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:04 pm

Jhanzie wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:09 pm
jjgp1112 wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:48 am
Jhanzie wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:43 am

Well I can’t go back in time to see a live broadcast on my CRT TV. What I can do is compare the Dragon Box DVD to the 30th. So maybe I should have explained myself better.

The Dragon Box and the 30th sets look very similar in SD. The major complaints about the 30th are the DNR, and that is not nearly as noticeable in SD, if even at all. Also the color is not exact, but very similar. The Dragon Box has a pink tint that is noticeable in skin tones, and sometimes a green tint. But yes, the overall presentation is very similar when watched in SD.
I know what you were trying to say, and again - no, they don't. Like I said, I had a CRTV until 2016. Unless whatever CRTV you watched it on had the sharpness turned all the way up, the Dragon Box never ONCE looked like the 30th set on my old TV. That's just straight up incorrect. A CRTV with proper settings will still correctly show how a 480p video should look. Your premise is straight up fiction.
Sooooo... you had a CRTV in 2016 and the 30th came out in 2019, and so you’ve never seen the 30th on a CRTV? That is the premise of my reasoning here. If you haven’t seen the 30th on an old TV you don’t have anything to agree or disagree with, because you haven’t seen it.

They also look very similar projected from my 720p projector. The lines are clear and focused, the colors subdued and not over saturated. And again, the lower resolution masks the side effect of the DNR.
So if the best positive you can squeeze out of this is that a 1080p looks better at a lower resolution...that's not really much a positive at all. It SHOULD look better downscaled. They're not making these sets for the few people who still have standard def. If it looks like ass in the format it was made for...then there's nothing to talk about.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
Cold World (Fanfic)
"It ain't never too late to stop bein' a bitch." - Chad Lamont Butler

Jhanzie
Newbie
Posts: 32
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:50 am

Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by Jhanzie » Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:53 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:04 pm
Jhanzie wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:09 pm
jjgp1112 wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:48 am I know what you were trying to say, and again - no, they don't. Like I said, I had a CRTV until 2016. Unless whatever CRTV you watched it on had the sharpness turned all the way up, the Dragon Box never ONCE looked like the 30th set on my old TV. That's just straight up incorrect. A CRTV with proper settings will still correctly show how a 480p video should look. Your premise is straight up fiction.
Sooooo... you had a CRTV in 2016 and the 30th came out in 2019, and so you’ve never seen the 30th on a CRTV? That is the premise of my reasoning here. If you haven’t seen the 30th on an old TV you don’t have anything to agree or disagree with, because you haven’t seen it.

They also look very similar projected from my 720p projector. The lines are clear and focused, the colors subdued and not over saturated. And again, the lower resolution masks the side effect of the DNR.
So if the best positive you can squeeze out of this is that a 1080p looks better at a lower resolution...that's not really much a positive at all. It SHOULD look better downscaled. They're not making these sets for the few people who still have standard def. If it looks like ass in the format it was made for...then there's nothing to talk about.
Well now we are on the right track. This brings me to the other part of my reasoning. People are lamenting that FUNi isn’t doing a full scale frame by frame HD restoration (much like the Level Sets.) BUT... DBZ never looked like the Level Sets on TV. You couldn’t see the film grain... or every small irregularity, speck, and brushstroke. But neither could you see all the film dirt, damage, hair, distortion, etc. that shows up when you scan an old film in HD.

But you are correct, the 30th doesn’t look exactly like the original broadcast when viewed on an HD TV. But the image is clean and clear, the colors are pleasant, and overall looks pretty crisp. Some of the comparison screen grabs I have seen show a zoomed in shot of a small section of the screen and say “see the lines are smeared!” That’s the type of thing you don’t notice sitting at a normal viewing distance, even from a large TV.

At the end of the day I am overjoyed to be able to get the Steelbooks for $40/season. They look plenty good enough to me to overlook their shortcomings and immerse myself in the artwork, the show, and the HD soundtracks.

User avatar
VanceRefrigeration
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:50 pm

Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by VanceRefrigeration » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:24 pm

The lines looked smeared even without zooming in:
The smeary lines coupled with the unnaturally sharp edges everywhere just makes for an unpleasant look. Whether or not it looks like the original broadcast is secondary to whether or not it's actually watchable on its own. When I see it, either zoomed in, zoomed out, big screen, or small screen, it just looks plain ugly.

And anyway, related to the topic of "original broadcast" is the idea of the animators' finished work. When the animators finish their work on an episode, the finalized thing is the original film negative; that's what the artists made. So the closer something looks to that (before degradation), the better. The original broadcast was on CRTs and in standard definition so people couldn't fully experience the artists' work. But now that we have HD and 4k, home video is better able to display that artwork. But where the Levels mostly embraced this idea, the 30th runs all sorts of destructive filters on the footage which moves it further away from what the artists created. So not only is the 30th ugly to look at (for me and many others, not everyone, I'm not looking down on anyone who likes it, etc.), it also isn't very respectful to what the artists created.

User avatar
jjgp1112
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 7478
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:15 pm
Location: Crooklyn

Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by jjgp1112 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:27 pm

Jhanzie wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:53 pm
jjgp1112 wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:04 pm
Jhanzie wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:09 pm

Sooooo... you had a CRTV in 2016 and the 30th came out in 2019, and so you’ve never seen the 30th on a CRTV? That is the premise of my reasoning here. If you haven’t seen the 30th on an old TV you don’t have anything to agree or disagree with, because you haven’t seen it.

They also look very similar projected from my 720p projector. The lines are clear and focused, the colors subdued and not over saturated. And again, the lower resolution masks the side effect of the DNR.
So if the best positive you can squeeze out of this is that a 1080p looks better at a lower resolution...that's not really much a positive at all. It SHOULD look better downscaled. They're not making these sets for the few people who still have standard def. If it looks like ass in the format it was made for...then there's nothing to talk about.
Well now we are on the right track. This brings me to the other part of my reasoning. People are lamenting that FUNi isn’t doing a full scale frame by frame HD restoration (much like the Level Sets.) BUT... DBZ never looked like the Level Sets on TV. You couldn’t see the film grain... or every small irregularity, speck, and brushstroke. But neither could you see all the film dirt, damage, hair, distortion, etc. that shows up when you scan an old film in HD.

But you are correct, the 30th doesn’t look exactly like the original broadcast when viewed on an HD TV. But the image is clean and clear, the colors are pleasant, and overall looks pretty crisp. Some of the comparison screen grabs I have seen show a zoomed in shot of a small section of the screen and say “see the lines are smeared!” That’s the type of thing you don’t notice sitting at a normal viewing distance, even from a large TV.

At the end of the day I am overjoyed to be able to get the Steelbooks for $40/season. They look plenty good enough to me to overlook their shortcomings and immerse myself in the artwork, the show, and the HD soundtracks.
But you COULD see film grain and scratches on standard def TV. DVNR has been a thing long before HD. I've always noticed film grain on the old singles, or the Dragon Boxes - that's exactly why Funi DVNR'd the standard def Orange Bricks.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
Cold World (Fanfic)
"It ain't never too late to stop bein' a bitch." - Chad Lamont Butler

Jhanzie
Newbie
Posts: 32
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:50 am

Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by Jhanzie » Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:42 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:27 pm
Jhanzie wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:53 pm
jjgp1112 wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:04 pm
So if the best positive you can squeeze out of this is that a 1080p looks better at a lower resolution...that's not really much a positive at all. It SHOULD look better downscaled. They're not making these sets for the few people who still have standard def. If it looks like ass in the format it was made for...then there's nothing to talk about.
Well now we are on the right track. This brings me to the other part of my reasoning. People are lamenting that FUNi isn’t doing a full scale frame by frame HD restoration (much like the Level Sets.) BUT... DBZ never looked like the Level Sets on TV. You couldn’t see the film grain... or every small irregularity, speck, and brushstroke. But neither could you see all the film dirt, damage, hair, distortion, etc. that shows up when you scan an old film in HD.

But you are correct, the 30th doesn’t look exactly like the original broadcast when viewed on an HD TV. But the image is clean and clear, the colors are pleasant, and overall looks pretty crisp. Some of the comparison screen grabs I have seen show a zoomed in shot of a small section of the screen and say “see the lines are smeared!” That’s the type of thing you don’t notice sitting at a normal viewing distance, even from a large TV.

At the end of the day I am overjoyed to be able to get the Steelbooks for $40/season. They look plenty good enough to me to overlook their shortcomings and immerse myself in the artwork, the show, and the HD soundtracks.
But you COULD see film grain and scratches on standard def TV. DVNR has been a thing long before HD. I've always noticed film grain on the old singles, or the Dragon Boxes - that's exactly why Funi DVNR'd the standard def Orange Bricks.
Well... yeah, I know. I’ve had plenty of old, unrestored cartoons on DVD. My point is that HD amplifies those things considerably, especially on the larger sets.

Jhanzie
Newbie
Posts: 32
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:50 am

Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by Jhanzie » Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:58 pm

VanceRefrigeration wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:24 pm The lines looked smeared even without zooming in:
The smeary lines coupled with the unnaturally sharp edges everywhere just makes for an unpleasant look. Whether or not it looks like the original broadcast is secondary to whether or not it's actually watchable on its own. When I see it, either zoomed in, zoomed out, big screen, or small screen, it just looks plain ugly.

And anyway, related to the topic of "original broadcast" is the idea of the animators' finished work. When the animators finish their work on an episode, the finalized thing is the original film negative; that's what the artists made. So the closer something looks to that (before degradation), the better. The original broadcast was on CRTs and in standard definition so people couldn't fully experience the artists' work. But now that we have HD and 4k, home video is better able to display that artwork. But where the Levels mostly embraced this idea, the 30th runs all sorts of destructive filters on the footage which moves it further away from what the artists created. So not only is the 30th ugly to look at (for me and many others, not everyone, I'm not looking down on anyone who likes it, etc.), it also isn't very respectful to what the artists created.
This is the kind of thing I’m talking about. This screen grab is a peculiar example out of the entire 9 seasons of where the picture is unusually less focused. It is probably not due to the DNR that is used throughout, but who knows.

You are correct, a meticulous frame by frame restoration is objectively better. No one is denying that. And there is a niche market of people who would pay $100+ per season. But honestly every single Dragon Ball fan I’ve ever known other than people on Internet forums doesn’t give a hoot about film grain, aspect ratio, color timing, etc. I myself find all these things to be important , and I am willing to pay $25 bucks for a classic live action movie meticulously restored in HD... but a premium price for an entire 9 seasons of an anime that I already own...? That’s more than a gamble for FUNi. People cried about the 30th being too expensive, and that was all 9 seasons for under $400.

User avatar
VanceRefrigeration
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:50 pm

Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by VanceRefrigeration » Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:48 pm

Jhanzie wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:58 pm This is the kind of thing I’m talking about. This screen grab is a peculiar example out of the entire 9 seasons of where the picture is unusually less focused. It is probably not due to the DNR that is used throughout, but who knows.
Here are shots without any focus issues:
They still look horrible. Focusing issues do happen because of the scan, but the sharpening they use is the main reason for most episodes' ugliness. That's what causes the weird water color effect on the lines.
You are correct, a meticulous frame by frame restoration is objectively better. No one is denying that. And there is a niche market of people who would pay $100+ per season. But honestly every single Dragon Ball fan I’ve ever known other than people on Internet forums doesn’t give a hoot about film grain, aspect ratio, color timing, etc. I myself find all these things to be important , and I am willing to pay $25 bucks for a classic live action movie meticulously restored in HD... but a premium price for an entire 9 seasons of an anime that I already own...? That’s more than a gamble for FUNi. People cried about the 30th being too expensive, and that was all 9 seasons for under $400.
First of all, there isn't much difference between the Levels and 30th restoration. Shocking right? Both of them were based on a scan done by the same person. Both of them had dirt, scratches, and tape marks removed. But the 30th went one step further and DNR'd the image and put an ugly sharpening filter on top of it. So you could even say that the 30th had more work put into it.......which made it look worse. So why would you think that a more faithful home release would cost "premium price" if all that's required is doing less work? The truth is that if they didn't put their ugly DNR/sharpening filters on the footage, they would still likely price it exactly the same and we wouldn't be here talking about "niche markets" because a proper version of the show would be the one everyone would be able to access and enjoy.

This isn't a case of "Welllll you can't blame them for not doing a super expensive restoration" because they already did that exact restoration! It's done. Finished. Sitting on a hard drive somewhere. Yet they refuse to release it in that form because they've got some weird belief that they need to ruin the image in order for it to sell.

Jhanzie
Newbie
Posts: 32
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:50 am

Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by Jhanzie » Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:56 pm

VanceRefrigeration wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:48 pm
Jhanzie wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:58 pm This is the kind of thing I’m talking about. This screen grab is a peculiar example out of the entire 9 seasons of where the picture is unusually less focused. It is probably not due to the DNR that is used throughout, but who knows.
Here are shots without any focus issues:
They still look horrible. Focusing issues do happen because of the scan, but the sharpening they use is the main reason for most episodes' ugliness. That's what causes the weird water color effect on the lines.
You are correct, a meticulous frame by frame restoration is objectively better. No one is denying that. And there is a niche market of people who would pay $100+ per season. But honestly every single Dragon Ball fan I’ve ever known other than people on Internet forums doesn’t give a hoot about film grain, aspect ratio, color timing, etc. I myself find all these things to be important , and I am willing to pay $25 bucks for a classic live action movie meticulously restored in HD... but a premium price for an entire 9 seasons of an anime that I already own...? That’s more than a gamble for FUNi. People cried about the 30th being too expensive, and that was all 9 seasons for under $400.
First of all, there isn't much difference between the Levels and 30th restoration. Shocking right? Both of them were based on a scan done by the same person. Both of them had dirt, scratches, and tape marks removed. But the 30th went one step further and DNR'd the image and put an ugly sharpening filter on top of it. So you could even say that the 30th had more work put into it.......which made it look worse. So why would you think that a more faithful home release would cost "premium price" if all that's required is doing less work? The truth is that if they didn't put their ugly DNR/sharpening filters on the footage, they would still likely price it exactly the same and we wouldn't be here talking about "niche markets" because a proper version of the show would be the one everyone would be able to access and enjoy.

This isn't a case of "Welllll you can't blame them for not doing a super expensive restoration" because they already did that exact restoration! It's done. Finished. Sitting on a hard drive somewhere. Yet they refuse to release it in that form because they've got some weird belief that they need to ruin the image in order for it to sell.
The entire series was color corrected by Steve Franko, which was the basis for the Level Sets, the Season Sets, and the 30th. The restoration for the Level Sets is considerably more work, which is why they were so much more expensive. They were $25 for about 15 episodes? Something like that. I remember seeing them at Walmart. If I had known their significance, and that they would go OOP, I would have bought them! Here a video about the making of the Level Sets, if you haven’t seen it yet:
https://youtu.be/moAy02J2fd8
But no, the Level Set restoration unfortunately was not completed, and isn’t sitting on a hard drive somewhere.

User avatar
VanceRefrigeration
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:50 pm

Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by VanceRefrigeration » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:13 pm

Jhanzie wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:56 pm The entire series was color corrected by Steve Franko, which was the basis for the Level Sets, the Season Sets, and the 30th. The restoration for the Level Sets is considerably more work, which is why they were so much more expensive. They were $25 for about 15 episodes? Something like that. I remember seeing them at Walmart. If I had known their significance, and that they would go OOP, I would have bought them! Here a video about the making of the Level Sets, if you haven’t seen it yet:
https://youtu.be/moAy02J2fd8
But no, the Level Set restoration unfortunately was not completed, and isn’t sitting on a hard drive somewhere.
Considerably more work how exactly? Why don't you watch that video yourself and then watch the video included on the Season Blu-ray sets. On the latter, the guy talks about how there was a team of engineers going frame by frame cleaning up the dirt, scratches, etc........sound familiar? Well it should because that's exactly what that Level Set video shows for that release. And notice how that lady in the Level Set video says that removing tape marks is the most time consuming of all the processes? Well........have you noticed that there are almost no tape marks visible on the 30th? The "most time consuming of all the processes" was seemingly done for the 30th too! So again I ask you, how exactly was the Level Set restoration more work than the 30th? Answer: it wasn't.

So while the release called the "Level Sets" was not finished, there is a restoration finished that had a meticulous removal of dirt, scratches, and tape marks. And they could release this restoration without any DNR and sharpening if they wanted to, for about the same price as the 30th, but they don't want to.

And regarding the cost, the Levels were expensive because Funimation was greedy. It was the first time that DBZ was on Blu-ray and they thought they could make tremendous amounts of money on it by pricing it high. But they seemingly didn't sell well enough and instead of making the correct conclusion that the price-per-episode was the problem, they incorrectly concluded that consumers wanted everything to be exactly like the Orange Bricks: DNR, sharpening, cropping, bright colors. And while they have brought back the correct aspect ratio with the 30th, some of their erroneous conclusions about what customers want are still having way more impact on their decision-making than they have any right to.

User avatar
Scsigs
I Live Here
Posts: 3442
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:55 am
Location: NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by Scsigs » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:46 pm

Jhanzie wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:09 am
Scsigs wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:25 pm
Jhanzie wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:16 pm Using more DNR takes these away but also the natural film grain, making it look less like a film restoration... and less like the level sets. The DNR w/sharpener makes it look more like it was seen originally, on a standard definition CRT TV, bright colors and bold lines. Which is the controversy. A movie that you see in the theatre is restored for BD to look like it was seen in the theater... so a cartoon you saw on TV in the 90’s should be restored HOW? DBZ didn’t look like the Level Sets on TV, as well as the film itself did not LOOK like the animation cells. I would like to see a VIDEO comparison between the color corrected scans and the 30th. Just to see how bad it looked before the video processing.
Dude, that's some of the most advanced mental gymnastics I've seen yet in regards to FUNi's remasters. Good job! :thumbup:
It’s just seeing things in a positive light. The other extreme perspective is that the 30th is unwatchable garbage, which has been thoroughly expounded already. It’s good to look at it from both ways, and people who browse the forum can decide for themselves if they want to make a purchase.
I mean, They're not unwatchable, but they're FAR from actually being a GOOD way to watch the show.
Only dubs that matter are DB, Kai, & Super. Nothing else.
Vic Mignogna: Good actor & singer, but a MAJOR douchebag & idiot.
https://www.youtube.com/user/Scsigs
https://twitter.com/Scsigs

Jhanzie
Newbie
Posts: 32
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:50 am

Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by Jhanzie » Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:26 pm

VanceRefrigeration wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:13 pm
Jhanzie wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:56 pm The entire series was color corrected by Steve Franko, which was the basis for the Level Sets, the Season Sets, and the 30th. The restoration for the Level Sets is considerably more work, which is why they were so much more expensive. They were $25 for about 15 episodes? Something like that. I remember seeing them at Walmart. If I had known their significance, and that they would go OOP, I would have bought them! Here a video about the making of the Level Sets, if you haven’t seen it yet:
https://youtu.be/moAy02J2fd8
But no, the Level Set restoration unfortunately was not completed, and isn’t sitting on a hard drive somewhere.
Considerably more work how exactly? Why don't you watch that video yourself and then watch the video included on the Season Blu-ray sets. On the latter, the guy talks about how there was a team of engineers going frame by frame cleaning up the dirt, scratches, etc........sound familiar? Well it should because that's exactly what that Level Set video shows for that release. And notice how that lady in the Level Set video says that removing tape marks is the most time consuming of all the processes? Well........have you noticed that there are almost no tape marks visible on the 30th? The "most time consuming of all the processes" was seemingly done for the 30th too! So again I ask you, how exactly was the Level Set restoration more work than the 30th? Answer: it wasn't.

So while the release called the "Level Sets" was not finished, there is a restoration finished that had a meticulous removal of dirt, scratches, and tape marks. And they could release this restoration without any DNR and sharpening if they wanted to, for about the same price as the 30th, but they don't want to.

And regarding the cost, the Levels were expensive because Funimation was greedy. It was the first time that DBZ was on Blu-ray and they thought they could make tremendous amounts of money on it by pricing it high. But they seemingly didn't sell well enough and instead of making the correct conclusion that the price-per-episode was the problem, they incorrectly concluded that consumers wanted everything to be exactly like the Orange Bricks: DNR, sharpening, cropping, bright colors. And while they have brought back the correct aspect ratio with the 30th, some of their erroneous conclusions about what customers want are still having way more impact on their decision-making than they have any right to.
Despite how they try to talk up the Season Sets in their video, FUNi knows the Level Sets are the superior restoration. DNR is a cheap and easy way to do the lion’s share of cleanup. FUNi’s not going to say “we don’t think the higher quality product will be profitable, so we’re doing this instead.” And the Season Sets, as well as the 30th have a tighter crop than the Level Sets that gets rid of the tape marks. Think about it. Do you think the company who is doing the restorations isn’t going to know which one is better... but the fanboys do...? Do you really think FUNimation actually believes that “Dragon Ball fans like DNR”? No, they know that most fans are clueless. Here is some startling evidence regarding the general public knowledge of DBZ on home video: I was in my local F.Y.E. the other day and they are selling the ORANGE BRICKS for $45 per season!!!!

User avatar
VanceRefrigeration
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:50 pm

Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by VanceRefrigeration » Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:35 pm

Jhanzie wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:26 pm Despite how they try to talk up the Season Sets in their video, FUNi knows the Level Sets are the superior restoration. DNR is a cheap and easy way to do the lion’s share of cleanup.
No, you are wrong about this. DNR means "digital noise reduction". It reduces noise, not tape marks/scratches/etc. Occasionally, it can get rid of some dirt, but not always. There are specific tools to get rid of scratches and tape marks and they are manual, otherwise you'd get significant artifacting. And the fact that they are 99% gone on the 30th, means that manual work was done on it.
FUNi’s not going to say “we don’t think the higher quality product will be profitable, so we’re doing this instead.” And the Season Sets, as well as the 30th have a tighter crop than the Level Sets that gets rid of the tape marks. Think about it. Do you think the company who is doing the restorations isn’t going to know which one is better... but the fanboys do...? Do you really think FUNimation actually believes that “Dragon Ball fans like DNR”? No, they know that most fans are clueless. Here is some startling evidence regarding the general public knowledge of DBZ on home video: I was in my local F.Y.E. the other day and they are selling the ORANGE BRICKS for $45 per season!!!!
About this "tighter crop" myth, please do some actual research. The "tighter crop" is episode 1 only! Did you know that by the time we're at the Saiyan fight, that the 30th sometimes shows more of the frame than the Levels?! In the Buu arc, we have Japanese tv recordings to compare and see where tape marks should be....and, once again, the shots on the 30th have their tape marks removed whereas the tv recordings have them at the end of every single shot. The 30th is significantly zoomed out but no tape marks can be found.

And about whether "Funimation actually believes" that Dragon Ball fans like DNR, have you listened to Kanzenshuu's interview with the former Funimation marketing guy? Please listen to it because he actually explains that the decision to crop on the Season Blu-rays and disregard the 4:3 vs 16:9 survey was down to sales numbers; the Orange Bricks sold more so they ignored the survey and cropped it anyway.

User avatar
TheGreatness25
I Live Here
Posts: 4924
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:36 am

Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by TheGreatness25 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:57 pm

VanceRefrigeration wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:35 pm
Jhanzie wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:26 pm Despite how they try to talk up the Season Sets in their video, FUNi knows the Level Sets are the superior restoration. DNR is a cheap and easy way to do the lion’s share of cleanup.
No, you are wrong about this. DNR means "digital noise reduction". It reduces noise, not tape marks/scratches/etc. Occasionally, it can get rid of some dirt, but not always. There are specific tools to get rid of scratches and tape marks and they are manual, otherwise you'd get significant artifacting. And the fact that they are 99% gone on the 30th, means that manual work was done on it.
FUNi’s not going to say “we don’t think the higher quality product will be profitable, so we’re doing this instead.” And the Season Sets, as well as the 30th have a tighter crop than the Level Sets that gets rid of the tape marks. Think about it. Do you think the company who is doing the restorations isn’t going to know which one is better... but the fanboys do...? Do you really think FUNimation actually believes that “Dragon Ball fans like DNR”? No, they know that most fans are clueless. Here is some startling evidence regarding the general public knowledge of DBZ on home video: I was in my local F.Y.E. the other day and they are selling the ORANGE BRICKS for $45 per season!!!!
About this "tighter crop" myth, please do some actual research. The "tighter crop" is episode 1 only! Did you know that by the time we're at the Saiyan fight, that the 30th sometimes shows more of the frame than the Levels?! In the Buu arc, we have Japanese tv recordings to compare and see where tape marks should be....and, once again, the shots on the 30th have their tape marks removed whereas the tv recordings have them at the end of every single shot. The 30th is significantly zoomed out but no tape marks can be found.

And about whether "Funimation actually believes" that Dragon Ball fans like DNR, have you listened to Kanzenshuu's interview with the former Funimation marketing guy? Please listen to it because he actually explains that the decision to crop on the Season Blu-rays and disregard the 4:3 vs 16:9 survey was down to sales numbers; the Orange Bricks sold more so they ignored the survey and cropped it anyway.
Just a little thought:

I find it so funny that they somehow correlated the aspect ratio to sales. Never minding that the orange bricks were cheaper, packed more episodes per release, were the only complete release, and were the only alternative to the original singles that were incomplete and fit four episodes per disc max. But they still thought that the aspect ratio was the big tipping point that created the difference between the orange bricks' sales versus the Level Sets? Who conducted this research? Lol

It's like saying that The Dark Knight was better received than Batman v. Superman because it had Rachael in it.

The aspect ratio and video quality were just the inconvenience that many fans were willing to put up with in favor of Funimation's new release model -- which they temporarily abandoned with Kai and the Level Sets. I think that the reaction to the cropping and video quality was highly scrutinized by fans. I don't remember many people praising it at all.

You know what the downfall was for the Level Sets? The orange bricks went right into the Dragon Box, which went right into the Level Sets. Whoever was looking to buy the series, had two opportunities to buy it. They also had the opportunity to buy the series with 30+ episodes per release as opposed to the Level Sets' 13 episodes per disc (or so). Also, there was still a large market for DVD as opposed to Blu-ray being the default standard. AND the Level Sets were expensive. AND people had no idea that these would be discontinued, so there was no urgency to buy them.

To credit the aspect ratio and DNR for the sales, is laughable and reeks of an agenda.

User avatar
VanceRefrigeration
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:50 pm

Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by VanceRefrigeration » Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:32 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:57 pm I find it so funny that they somehow correlated the aspect ratio to sales. Never minding that the orange bricks were cheaper, packed more episodes per release, were the only complete release, and were the only alternative to the original singles that were incomplete and fit four episodes per disc max. But they still thought that the aspect ratio was the big tipping point that created the difference between the orange bricks' sales versus the Level Sets? Who conducted this research? Lol
To credit the aspect ratio and DNR for the sales, is laughable and reeks of an agenda.
The way I see it, they didn't single out DNR and aspect ratio alone, but rather just looked at the Orange Bricks and tried to replicate nearly everything about them, just in HD and with some better tools. They cropped it, just like the Orange Bricks. They removed the grain, just like the Orange Bricks. They made it brighter, just like the Orange Bricks. And they even sold it at a low price-per-episode, just like the Orange Bricks. It seems like they didn't want to take any risks, so they just went all in on copying what the Orange Bricks did. Then, lo and behold, the Season Blu-rays are massively successful and so they likely patted themselves on the back for their decision-making.

We know which factors actually mattered in those releases' success so it's frustrating that they seem to have no insight into this. And now that they're finally allowing for a 4:3 version, how many people are really going to fork over the money for these steelbooks, especially since they're on the same format as the previous release? My fear is that if these steelbooks don't sell that well, then they're going to see two cropped releases that sold well and two 4:3 releases that underperformed, and draw all the wrong conclusions from that once again.

Post Reply