Funimations 30th anniversary collectible home video release

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Re: Funimations 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by eledoremassis02 » Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:25 pm

Does anyone know if FUNi wetgate scanned these? Because there is a flaw in all the realeases that really noticeable (more so with DNR). It's like there is a layer of water over the image that makes the image wave and distorts slightly. Could stabilizing the image do that? It is more noticeable in some shots more than others

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Re: Funimations 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by Robo4900 » Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:54 pm

eledoremassis02 wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:25 pm
Does anyone know if FUNi wetgate scanned these? Because there is a flaw in all the realeases that really noticeable (more so with DNR). It's like there is a layer of water over the image that makes the image wave and distorts slightly. Could stabilizing the image do that? It is more noticeable in some shots more than others
If they'd wetgate scanned it, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't get that problem; it's an inherent flaw in the film, I believe.
But I'd doubt it was wetgate scanned, for the record; their prints are multigenerational and thus inherit a lot of crap from the previous generations it's printed from, but I wouldn't expect their film to be damaged such that it would need a wetgate scan.
Toei's negatives would probably benefit from a wetgate scan (and I imagine Kai, at the very least, was scanned in this way), but release prints like Funi's wouldn't need it unless they're quite damaged, and all indications so far have pointed to Funi's film being in rather excellent condition.

Essentially, as I'm given to understand it, the issue you speak of boils down to the fact the film surface isn't totally even and flat across its entire length, so particularly with multigenerational prints of the sort Funi are using, you get a lot of warping of the image. (Remember, any previous film's warping would then be printed onto the next)

There are many flaws in film that you won't notice as long as it's not objectionably intense, such as grain; even the Levels pulled back the grain a tad. Long as it's not too heavy, you don't really notice it, and only really see the picture underneath, the grain's just a slight texture on the picture.
Physical warping of the film is like this, though it's somewhat the other side of the coin; grain is only an issue on a still image, you see past it completely in a moving image, meanwhile you'll be hard-pressed to actually notice the film warping in a still image, but can be seen in motion. Both, however, have in common the fact that in regular viewing, you won't notice it unless it's exceptionally strong on the image, which is very rare (a multigen print on exceptionally cheap stock may have a lot of grain, and a film that's been kept in very poor conditions may distort very heavily; grain can be pulled back to a more acceptable level by some clever filtering, though I think warping is a lot more difficult).

The problem is, Funi's filtering accentuates all of the issues in the picture for proper in-motion viewing; the grain in a given still is a disturbance that can be seen past, but certainly one that somewhat masks detail if you're just looking at a single, still frame rather than watching in motion, and for physical warping, across a given span of time it does give the picture a wobbly look, but again one that can easily be seen past...

The DNR removes the grain texture on the picture, but the flaw grain introduces to a given still is accentuated -- that is, the lack of detail in any given frame is dialled up; if you're forced to resolve the image to a form without grain, the filter will compromise and end up smearing/blurring/smudging out huge swathes of detail that are too difficult to properly render from the information a computer can glean in a grainy still -- and we're left with a blurry, smeared, low-detail mess with some artificial sharpening that gives it its unique ugliness, and introduces new flaws such as the shading distorting and wobbling. (In theory, "Temporal" degraining is a filter that exists and could mitigate these problems by processing the way the image moves rather than essentially blurring each individual frame, but it doesn't work on animation)

Thing is, on a grainy, detailed picture like how we see Dragon Ball on the Dragon Boxes or the Levels, the warping is somewhat disguised and kind of blends in with the other imperfections in the picture. In Funi's cleaned-up image, they scrubbed the image so hard that the original picture is distorted, however they achieved their goal of scrubbing out all the imperfections along the way. This leaves only a couple of imperfections left in the image; instability and film warping. They can get a rather good stabilisation quite easily, but the warping is pretty much unfixable.
And with their squeaky-clean, scrubbed picture, all of the wobbling about the picture does (including the wobbly shading Funi added in their degraining) stops blending in with the grain, etc., and becomes more visible than on other masters, even if it is present on many releases.

TL;DR: Film is wobbly, but it's typically quite hard to notice underneath the grain, etc., and Funi's prints are more badly-affected by it than most content we'd be used to seeing as it's from multigen prints.
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Re: Funimations 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by eledoremassis02 » Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:21 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:54 pm
eledoremassis02 wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:25 pm
Does anyone know if FUNi wetgate scanned these? Because there is a flaw in all the realeases that really noticeable (more so with DNR). It's like there is a layer of water over the image that makes the image wave and distorts slightly. Could stabilizing the image do that? It is more noticeable in some shots more than others
If they'd wetgate scanned it, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't get that problem; it's an inherent flaw in the film, I believe.
But I'd doubt it was wetgate scanned, for the record; their prints are multigenerational and thus inherit a lot of crap from the previous generations it's printed from, but I wouldn't expect their film to be damaged such that it would need a wetgate scan.
Toei's negatives would probably benefit from a wetgate scan (and I imagine Kai, at the very least, was scanned in this way), but release prints like Funi's wouldn't need it unless they're quite damaged, and all indications so far have pointed to Funi's film being in rather excellent condition.

Essentially, as I'm given to understand it, the issue you speak of boils down to the fact the film surface isn't totally even and flat across its entire length, so particularly with multigenerational prints of the sort Funi are using, you get a lot of warping of the image. (Remember, any previous film's warping would then be printed onto the next)

There are many flaws in film that you won't notice as long as it's not objectionably intense, such as grain; even the Levels pulled back the grain a tad. Long as it's not too heavy, you don't really notice it, and only really see the picture underneath, the grain's just a slight texture on the picture.
Physical warping of the film is like this, though it's somewhat the other side of the coin; grain is only an issue on a still image, you see past it completely in a moving image, meanwhile you'll be hard-pressed to actually notice the film warping in a still image, but can be seen in motion. Both, however, have in common the fact that in regular viewing, you won't notice it unless it's exceptionally strong on the image, which is very rare (a multigen print on exceptionally cheap stock may have a lot of grain, and a film that's been kept in very poor conditions may distort very heavily; grain can be pulled back to a more acceptable level by some clever filtering, though I think warping is a lot more difficult).

The problem is, Funi's filtering accentuates all of the issues in the picture for proper in-motion viewing; the grain in a given still is a disturbance that can be seen past, but certainly one that somewhat masks detail if you're just looking at a single, still frame rather than watching in motion, and for physical warping, across a given span of time it does give the picture a wobbly look, but again one that can easily be seen past...

The DNR removes the grain texture on the picture, but the flaw grain introduces to a given still is accentuated -- that is, the lack of detail in any given frame is dialled up; if you're forced to resolve the image to a form without grain, the filter will compromise and end up smearing/blurring/smudging out huge swathes of detail that are too difficult to properly render from the information a computer can glean in a grainy still -- and we're left with a blurry, smeared, low-detail mess with some artificial sharpening that gives it its unique ugliness, and introduces new flaws such as the shading distorting and wobbling. (In theory, "Temporal" degraining is a filter that exists and could mitigate these problems by processing the way the image moves rather than essentially blurring each individual frame, but it doesn't work on animation)

Thing is, on a grainy, detailed picture like how we see Dragon Ball on the Dragon Boxes or the Levels, the warping is somewhat disguised and kind of blends in with the other imperfections in the picture. In Funi's cleaned-up image, they scrubbed the image so hard that the original picture is distorted, however they achieved their goal of scrubbing out all the imperfections along the way. This leaves only a couple of imperfections left in the image; instability and film warping. They can get a rather good stabilisation quite easily, but the warping is pretty much unfixable.
And with their squeaky-clean, scrubbed picture, all of the wobbling about the picture does (including the wobbly shading Funi added in their degraining) stops blending in with the grain, etc., and becomes more visible than on other masters, even if it is present on many releases.

TL;DR: Film is wobbly, but it's typically quite hard to notice underneath the grain, etc., and Funi's prints are more badly-affected by it than most content we'd be used to seeing as it's from multigen prints.
Very informative thank you!

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Re: Funimations 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by KBABZ » Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:52 am

Robo4900 wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:54 pm
Essentially, as I'm given to understand it, the issue you speak of boils down to the fact the film surface isn't totally even and flat across its entire length, so particularly with multigenerational prints of the sort Funi are using, you get a lot of warping of the image. (Remember, any previous film's warping would then be printed onto the next)
I do think there's some discrepancy, then. I remember trying to line up the "Goku pops his head up after falling into the river" shot from Ep 1, between the Dragon Box and the Blue Brick, and it was impossible to line up 100% because of what I figured to be warping. Things were in different places at slightly different sizes so it couldn't be done to my satisfaction.

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Re: Funimations 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by Robo4900 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:29 pm

KBABZ wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:52 am
Robo4900 wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:54 pm
Essentially, as I'm given to understand it, the issue you speak of boils down to the fact the film surface isn't totally even and flat across its entire length, so particularly with multigenerational prints of the sort Funi are using, you get a lot of warping of the image. (Remember, any previous film's warping would then be printed onto the next)
I do think there's some discrepancy, then. I remember trying to line up the "Goku pops his head up after falling into the river" shot from Ep 1, between the Dragon Box and the Blue Brick, and it was impossible to line up 100% because of what I figured to be warping. Things were in different places at slightly different sizes so it couldn't be done to my satisfaction.
Yeah. That's the reality of working with different film sources, unfortunately.
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Re: Funimations 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by samuraix123 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:34 pm

I personally can't wait to have this in my collection a long with my Dragonboxes. but Funimation has one of the sorriest customer services I have seen. They removed the ''Guest sign in'' option so now I can't check the status of my package to make sure everything is still good with it. messaged em twice...never bothered responding back. tried to call them, leave a message and they'll get back to you. like what? :lol: Gone are the days when you call and get to talk to a sweet little old lady that can't read the monitor because she forgot her glasses :lol: :lol:
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Re: Funimations 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by Scsigs » Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:44 pm

samuraix123 wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:34 pm
I personally can't wait to have this in my collection a long with my Dragonboxes. but Funimation has one of the sorriest customer services I have seen. They removed the ''Guest sign in'' option so now I can't check the status of my package to make sure everything is still good with it. messaged em twice...never bothered responding back. tried to call them, leave a message and they'll get back to you. like what? :lol: Gone are the days when you call and get to talk to a sweet little old lady that can't read the monitor because she forgot her glasses :lol: :lol:
Um, shouldn't THAT give you the sign that something isn't right here with this shit?
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Re: Funimations 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by bigray » Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:16 pm

samuraix123 wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:34 pm
I personally can't wait to have this in my collection a long with my Dragonboxes. but Funimation has one of the sorriest customer services I have seen. They removed the ''Guest sign in'' option so now I can't check the status of my package to make sure everything is still good with it. messaged em twice...never bothered responding back. tried to call them, leave a message and they'll get back to you. like what? :lol: Gone are the days when you call and get to talk to a sweet little old lady that can't read the monitor because she forgot her glasses :lol: :lol:
I'm currently having the same problem. I sent them an email to say I moved houses and my shipping address has changed. It's been 2 weeks and no reply. Have to message them again

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Re: Funimations 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by Super Kami Guru » Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:13 pm

Why does Funimation keep butchering every home release of DBZ? And furthermore why do they keep removing the grain?

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Re: Funimations 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by sintzu » Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:38 pm

Super Kami Guru wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:13 pm
Why does Funimation keep butchering every home release of DBZ?

And furthermore why do they keep removing the grain?
So that fans will keep buying each new release that is slightly better than the last. Z is one of the only anime that has as many releases as it does as the vast majority have one, near perfect release.

They think it makes it look "new".
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Re: Funimations 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:45 pm

sintzu wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:38 pm
Super Kami Guru wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:13 pm
Why does Funimation keep butchering every home release of DBZ?

And furthermore why do they keep removing the grain?
So that fans will keep buying each new release that is slightly better than the last. Z is one of the only anime that has as many releases as it does as the vast majority have one, near perfect release.

They think it makes it look "new".
They are basically almost incapable of just releasing DBZ to where it looks like an old show the way it should be, and it's the only one out of the titles they have licensed and in which they've constantly botched the home releases of in different ways (with exception of one or two in the Dragon Boxes and Level sets rest their souls) and that's quite frankly embarrassing. Unfortunately, it seems as though they just can never get it right and drop the ball almost every time since 2007 and that in turn just makes you want to shake your head.

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Re: Funimations 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by sintzu » Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:16 pm

SuperSaiyaManZ94 wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:45 pm
It seems as though they just can never get it right and drop the ball almost every time since 2007 and that in turn just makes you want to shake your head.
They could if they wanted to. The problem is that too many fans are supporting these broken releases which gives them a financial reason to not get it right. If they came out of the gate with a standard release of the Dragon Box footage then no one would buy anything else. Fans of other anime aren't...I don't have a word for it but they won't let a company do that. If Funimation for example released something like FMA looking like the orange sets, it more than likely wouldn't sell.
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Re: Funimations 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:28 am

sintzu wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:16 pm
SuperSaiyaManZ94 wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:45 pm
It seems as though they just can never get it right and drop the ball almost every time since 2007 and that in turn just makes you want to shake your head.
They could if they wanted to. The problem is that too many fans are supporting these broken releases which gives them a financial reason to not get it right. If they came out of the gate with a standard release of the Dragon Box footage then no one would buy anything else.
The sad thing is they can also take complaints from the fans who have issues with these sets and twist and turn them into selling points:

"For the first time ever all 291 episodes remastered in high definition in the original 4:3 aspect ratio"

I hate to say it because I like how Funimation has dubbed the series since Kai but they really don't get the fanbase and why we have issues with the things we have issues with.
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Re: Funimations 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by Scsigs » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:15 am

Dragon Ball Ireland wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:28 am
The sad thing is they can also take complaints from the fans who have issues with these sets and twist and turn them into selling points:

"For the first time ever all 291 episodes remastered in high definition in the original 4:3 aspect ratio"

I hate to say it because I like how Funimation has dubbed the series since Kai but they really don't get the fanbase and why we have issues with the things we have issues with.
I mean, they've done it before & it's what they're doing now. The blogpost clearly shows that's what they're doing. The ONE time we got a suitible release that was affordable, not a lot of people bought it because they HAD sets they were fine with. Had they just waited 2 or 3 years to do the levels, then they'd be getting the money to pay for them, but no. Can't have something we actually want, no sir.
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Re: Funimations 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by ABED » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:18 am

Scsigs wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:15 am
Dragon Ball Ireland wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:28 am
The sad thing is they can also take complaints from the fans who have issues with these sets and twist and turn them into selling points:

"For the first time ever all 291 episodes remastered in high definition in the original 4:3 aspect ratio"

I hate to say it because I like how Funimation has dubbed the series since Kai but they really don't get the fanbase and why we have issues with the things we have issues with.
I mean, they've done it before & it's what they're doing now. The blogpost clearly shows that's what they're doing. The ONE time we got a suitible release that was affordable, not a lot of people bought it because they HAD sets they were fine with. Had they just waited 2 or 3 years to do the levels, then they'd be getting the money to pay for them, but no. Can't have something we actually want, no sir.
I take it the level sets were the blu rays that were 14 or so episodes per release. They may have done better, but I doubt much better. Even with time away, the episode count per release and the price point weren't points in its favor.
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Re: Funimations 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by Scsigs » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:31 am

ABED wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:18 am
I take it the level sets were the blu rays that were 14 or so episodes per release. They may have done better, but I doubt much better. Even with time away, the episode count per release and the price point weren't points in its favor.
16-17, actually. Yeah, maybe not, but with FUNi's tendency to repackage their longer-running shows into bigger collections a year or so after releasing part sets, that problem would've been taken care of eventually.
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Re: Funimations 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by ABED » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:43 am

Scsigs wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:31 am
ABED wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:18 am
I take it the level sets were the blu rays that were 14 or so episodes per release. They may have done better, but I doubt much better. Even with time away, the episode count per release and the price point weren't points in its favor.
16-17, actually. Yeah, maybe not, but with FUNi's tendency to repackage their longer-running shows into bigger collections a year or so after releasing part sets, that problem would've been taken care of eventually.
I really doubt it. I know people love to villify FUNi, but this one wasn't primarily their fault. The cost of making those releases and the price point weren't attractive at that point in the market place. The home video market was not near where it used to be.
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Re: Funimations 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:32 pm

Time definitely played a part in the Level set's failure. When you consider the fact all 9 Orange Bricks, 7 Dragon Boxes and Kai were released in a 4 year timespan and so closely together its understandable not everyone had the money for the Level sets. If the Levels started being released in 2013 or even 2014 that would have allowed some breathing room for enough people to be satisfied with the aforementioned releases before hyping up one final definitive version. I'd say 2014 would have been a good time to release Level 1.1. It was a good 3 years after the Dragon Boxes finished their run, Super wasn't a thing and a lot of people were starting to give up on Kai: The Final Chapters and probably would have saved up and been willing to buy Z again.

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Re: Funimations 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by ABED » Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:46 pm

No one seems to take into account the costs of production or how the overall market was not that long ago. Sure, if they had been the only release within a decade, they could've done better, but it's hardly a guarentee of success or even being able to complete the product line. FUNi didn't neccessarily cannibalize themselves.
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Re: Funimations 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by sintzu » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:27 pm

ABED wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:46 pm
No one seems to take into account the costs of production or how the overall market was not that long ago. Sure, if they had been the only release within a decade, they could've done better, but it's hardly a guarentee of success or even being able to complete the product line. FUNi didn't neccessarily cannibalize themselves.
Funi also didn't help themselves by releasing so many versions in a short amount of time. I know nothing is a sure thing but surely they would've done better.
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