Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

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Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by jjgp1112 » Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:43 pm

Trachta10 wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:28 pm
VanceRefrigeration wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:01 pm
Trachta10 wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:41 pm
I have a question, shouldn't the raw footage be a RAW file? not a JPG
because I think you can remove noise better in RAW files
https://www.dxo.com/dxo-photolab/deepprime/
and is better for dark or very bright details
Yeah but who is using jpegs? The images on their blog (which aren't even jpegs) aren't the actual format of their raws...
and why they didn't upload it in RAW format?
maybe they don't work with that format
and maybe that's why even the level sets have crushed blacks
Wha...? The level sets have crushed blacks because they didn't do much color correction, not because they...scanned it in jpeg. That is a cartoonishly wild conclusion to draw based on images they compressed for a website.

Just simply shifting the white and black levels alone can restore clarity and dark details, even in compressed, downscaled images, like so:

Image
Image
Image

For FUNimation's high-resolution film-scans, these details would look far more vivid - the shading on Raditz's armor wouldn't be blurry, the ridges of the crater would be far easier to make out rather than a blurry blob of artifacts.

But it's clear that FUNi approached the Level Sets like Toei approached the Dragon Box - a minimal restoration that fixes film damage and irregularities, but leaves the colors alone.
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Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by Psajdak » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:53 am

Seeing some iKaos stuff on my color calibrated 1080p VG24VQ monitor, I can't help but think that even those low res episodes look really good, great even.

I'm sure it would look even better on CRT monitor, but my point is that even if we never get Blu-ray version that we want, it won't be much of a loss, IMO.

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Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by Trachta10 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:24 am

Ajay wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:28 pm
Trachta10 wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:58 am
From what I understand, many photographers take pictures in JPEG format because the difference with a RAW file is almost undetectable (same with a image scanner), but the truth is there is a vast difference in the amount of information retained in a RAW file compared to a JPEG, so if you just shot in JPEG, which is a “loss” file format, much of the initial image information and detail is discarded and cannot be recovered.

You can just shot in JPEG, or shot in RAW, edit it, and then convert it to a JPEG, is not the same.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_image_format
https://www.slrlounge.com/workshop/dyna ... w-vs-jpeg/
Dude, I know what raw photography is. I'm saying that Funi using PNGs on their website has absolutely zero indication of what they do and don't have. It's just standard practise to use compressed images online. The company were never going to upload anything but that because browsers don't support it. Of course their raw scans will be in adequately lossless formats. To suggest they didn't scan their reels in an adequate format, let alone JPG, is one of the weirdest posts in this thread so far, especially trying to attribute the Level Sets' black levels to it. Like... what? That's not how any of this works.
Well, when you said RAW isn´t a format and wikipedia literally says "Raw image format" I assumed you didn't know what it was.
I am just saying that it is very common that people do not use the RAW format, because it is simply not necessary, and JPEG is cheaper and faster for a company.

if you work with RAW format, you will never have crushed blacks like in the Level Sets, because when you have that RAW file you can edit it easily, denoise it, brighten darks, etc, and then convert it to a JPEG, if you work directly with a JPEG all those edits are impossible, you will have very poor results, and I think that's why also the 30th anniversary has all this problems, they are not working with RAW files

When they did Kai, you can realize, the denosie was done much better, dark areas look much better,
that's because they probably had more budget and time, and could work with the files in RAW

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Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by ect5150 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:19 am

Trachta10 wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:24 am
if you work with RAW format, you will never have crushed blacks like in the Level Sets
Crushed blacks aren't a function of the picture/video format.
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Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by jjgp1112 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:05 pm

Trachta10 wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:24 am
Ajay wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:28 pm
Trachta10 wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:58 am
From what I understand, many photographers take pictures in JPEG format because the difference with a RAW file is almost undetectable (same with a image scanner), but the truth is there is a vast difference in the amount of information retained in a RAW file compared to a JPEG, so if you just shot in JPEG, which is a “loss” file format, much of the initial image information and detail is discarded and cannot be recovered.

You can just shot in JPEG, or shot in RAW, edit it, and then convert it to a JPEG, is not the same.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_image_format
https://www.slrlounge.com/workshop/dyna ... w-vs-jpeg/
Dude, I know what raw photography is. I'm saying that Funi using PNGs on their website has absolutely zero indication of what they do and don't have. It's just standard practise to use compressed images online. The company were never going to upload anything but that because browsers don't support it. Of course their raw scans will be in adequately lossless formats. To suggest they didn't scan their reels in an adequate format, let alone JPG, is one of the weirdest posts in this thread so far, especially trying to attribute the Level Sets' black levels to it. Like... what? That's not how any of this works.
Well, when you said RAW isn´t a format and wikipedia literally says "Raw image format" I assumed you didn't know what it was.
I am just saying that it is very common that people do not use the RAW format, because it is simply not necessary, and JPEG is cheaper and faster for a company.

if you work with RAW format, you will never have crushed blacks like in the Level Sets, because when you have that RAW file you can edit it easily, denoise it, brighten darks, etc, and then convert it to a JPEG, if you work directly with a JPEG all those edits are impossible, you will have very poor results, and I think that's why also the 30th anniversary has all this problems, they are not working with RAW files

When they did Kai, you can realize, the denosie was done much better, dark areas look much better,
that's because they probably had more budget and time, and could work with the files in RAW
Crushed blacks is a result of their older film prints, not them using a damn JPEG file format for a professional remaster. Do you realize how artifact-ridden the masters would be if they were actually in the same format as the images FUNi posted on their blog?

As we keep telling you, FUNi shared compressed JPEGs because they're easier to load and browsers actually support them - it is absolutely no indication that they actually used a jpeg format for their remaster, and it is in an utterly ridiculous proposition.

Poor remastering and color correction isn't a release solely caused by the file fomat, dawg. Poorly applied DVNR and color correction will hurt images in even the highest quality format - it's not a shield from bad hands. Look no further than Toei's remastered movie releases, which were blasted with DVNR.

I mean seriously, just tell me: what companies do you know actually used a JPG format for a remaster, and how in the hell would that be cost effective? I'm probably coming off as rude but I just can't believe what you're saying.

The Dragon Box had crushed blacks too, especially the movies - were those jpegs, too? Hell I'm watching a Goodfellas remaster on Amazon that's chock full of crushed blacks (and I'm not talking about Samuel L. Jackson after the botched robbery, either). Guess that was a JPEG, too! We all know Warner Bros. is hard-up for cash.
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Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
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Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by Ajay » Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:54 pm

Trachta10 wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:24 am
Well, when you said RAW isn´t a format and wikipedia literally says "Raw image format" I assumed you didn't know what it was.
I am just saying that it is very common that people do not use the RAW format, because it is simply not necessary, and JPEG is cheaper and faster for a company.

if you work with RAW format, you will never have crushed blacks like in the Level Sets, because when you have that RAW file you can edit it easily, denoise it, brighten darks, etc, and then convert it to a JPEG, if you work directly with a JPEG all those edits are impossible, you will have very poor results, and I think that's why also the 30th anniversary has all this problems, they are not working with RAW files

When they did Kai, you can realize, the denosie was done much better, dark areas look much better,
that's because they probably had more budget and time, and could work with the files in RAW
As in, RAW isn't a video format. Companies use ProRes for filmic materials typically. Film isn't scanned as individual photos with an SLR.

Your last few posts demonstrate the most mindboggling misunderstanding of formats, remastering processes, and frankly, basic web imagery. Everyone's telling you this isn't how this works and you're not listening?

Like, I get where your train of thought is, but the way you're saying it doesn't make much sense, and shouldn't be based on a blog post that used PNGs (not even JPEG!). That has nothing to do with anything.

It's entirely possible Funi didn't do a log scan of their materials thus limiting the retrieval of detail, but there's no way to discern that without asking someone involved in the process.
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Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by eledoremassis02 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:58 am

After watching some kai, I think the big take away for me is the not FUNi's DNR but the fact they don't habe ''decent'' masters. Even namek suffers from crush in the namek ark. Earth colors (green and browns seem to have deep contrast to them).

After watching Akira, Kai does look a lot like that remaster.

Woud love for toei to atleast scan the series in HD. Has there been any examples of a full uncompressed toie master.

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Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by MetaMoss » Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:23 pm

eledoremassis02 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:58 am
After watching some kai, I think the big take away for me is the not FUNi's DNR but the fact they don't habe ''decent'' masters. Even namek suffers from crush in the namek ark. Earth colors (green and browns seem to have deep contrast to them).
I agree. The conclusion I've come to about Funimation's remasters (given my very limited understanding of such things) is that the problem isn't so much the things they do with their film source (except when they crop it, naturally), but what the film source is, being an nth generation master.

What I'm really wondering is why Funimation hasn't involved Toei when they've wanted to make a remaster. This goes all the way back: why wasn't the Orange Bricks just the Dragon Box remaster? Why continue to use the same degraded film to make stuff in HD when Toei has superior materials way more suited to the task? And so on.

I have to imagine somebody at Funimation at some point tried to get Toei on board to make a new remaster. Perhaps I'm giving them too much credit, but that seems like the obvious move, and I'm really wondering if Toei's not wanting to go for it for some reason. If anybody has some insight to share on this, I'd appreciate it.
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Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by eledoremassis02 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:11 pm

MetaMoss wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:23 pm
eledoremassis02 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:58 am
After watching some kai, I think the big take away for me is the not FUNi's DNR but the fact they don't habe ''decent'' masters. Even namek suffers from crush in the namek ark. Earth colors (green and browns seem to have deep contrast to them).
I agree. The conclusion I've come to about Funimation's remasters (given my very limited understanding of such things) is that the problem isn't so much the things they do with their film source (except when they crop it, naturally), but what the film source is, being an nth generation master.

What I'm really wondering is why Funimation hasn't involved Toei when they've wanted to make a remaster. This goes all the way back: why wasn't the Orange Bricks just the Dragon Box remaster? Why continue to use the same degraded film to make stuff in HD when Toei has superior materials way more suited to the task? And so on.

I have to imagine somebody at Funimation at some point tried to get Toei on board to make a new remaster. Perhaps I'm giving them too much credit, but that seems like the obvious move, and I'm really wondering if Toei's not wanting to go for it for some reason. If anybody has some insight to share on this, I'd appreciate it.
I agree as well. I think if scanned correctly TOEI's masters would look amazing and make the levels (which don't look as good as I orignally thought) look like the 30th

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Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by dragonmagico » Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:40 am

MetaMoss wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:23 pm
eledoremassis02 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:58 am
After watching some kai, I think the big take away for me is the not FUNi's DNR but the fact they don't habe ''decent'' masters. Even namek suffers from crush in the namek ark. Earth colors (green and browns seem to have deep contrast to them).

What I'm really wondering is why Funimation hasn't involved Toei when they've wanted to make a remaster. This goes all the way back: why wasn't the Orange Bricks just the Dragon Box remaster? Why continue to use the same degraded film to make stuff in HD when Toei has superior materials way more suited to the task? And so on.


Money. They already paid for the dbz film, they dont need to relicense anything to keep making new versions. each new scan toei does costs money to license.

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Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by Jhanzie » Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:09 pm

eledoremassis02 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:58 am
After watching some kai, I think the big take away for me is the not FUNi's DNR but the fact they don't habe ''decent'' masters. Even namek suffers from crush in the namek ark. Earth colors (green and browns seem to have deep contrast to them).

After watching Akira, Kai does look a lot like that remaster.

Woud love for toei to atleast scan the series in HD. Has there been any examples of a full uncompressed toie master.
Are the flashback scenes in Super examples of uncompressed Toei masters? I didn’t actually try to take screen grabs to check, but they LOOK like HD vintage Z footage. And the colors look dull compared to Super, but maybe that was done to emphasize that is was a flashback? I was watching Super episode 86, Goku trying to recruit 17.

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Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by eledoremassis02 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:13 am

Jhanzie wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:09 pm
eledoremassis02 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:58 am
After watching some kai, I think the big take away for me is the not FUNi's DNR but the fact they don't habe ''decent'' masters. Even namek suffers from crush in the namek ark. Earth colors (green and browns seem to have deep contrast to them).

After watching Akira, Kai does look a lot like that remaster.

Woud love for toei to atleast scan the series in HD. Has there been any examples of a full uncompressed toie master.
Are the flashback scenes in Super examples of uncompressed Toei masters? I didn’t actually try to take screen grabs to check, but they LOOK like HD vintage Z footage. And the colors look dull compared to Super, but maybe that was done to emphasize that is was a flashback? I was watching Super episode 86, Goku trying to recruit 17.
I think those are just kai recaps? I'd like to see a now Qtek remastered shot

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Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by Jhanzie » Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:54 am

eledoremassis02 wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:13 am
Jhanzie wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:09 pm
eledoremassis02 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:58 am
After watching some kai, I think the big take away for me is the not FUNi's DNR but the fact they don't habe ''decent'' masters. Even namek suffers from crush in the namek ark. Earth colors (green and browns seem to have deep contrast to them).

After watching Akira, Kai does look a lot like that remaster.

Woud love for toei to atleast scan the series in HD. Has there been any examples of a full uncompressed toie master.
Are the flashback scenes in Super examples of uncompressed Toei masters? I didn’t actually try to take screen grabs to check, but they LOOK like HD vintage Z footage. And the colors look dull compared to Super, but maybe that was done to emphasize that is was a flashback? I was watching Super episode 86, Goku trying to recruit 17.
I think those are just kai recaps? I'd like to see a now Qtek remastered shot
I honestly didn’t think it could be Kai at all. Those flashbacks literally just look like HD film scans, with little or no processing done. Colors a bit faded, and none of the sharpening noticeable on the 30th. Maybe a bit of DNR. I think I would be able to tell if they straight up re-animated it. It would look TOO clean. Makes me wonder if Toei would consider releasing an HD Dragon Box Z someday.

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Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by kyppk » Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:04 am

Jhanzie wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:09 pm
Are the flashback scenes in Super examples of uncompressed Toei masters? I didn’t actually try to take screen grabs to check, but they LOOK like HD vintage Z footage. And the colors look dull compared to Super, but maybe that was done to emphasize that is was a flashback? I was watching Super episode 86, Goku trying to recruit 17.
Similar question was asked in the comparison thread, and although a definitive answer was not reached you can scroll the page to see the frame in other releases. viewtopic.php?p=1663670#p1663670

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Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:26 am

Everyone probably saw it coming, but Madman are releasing these for Australia. So much for the 30th anniversary being a once in a lifetime legendary remaster :lol:
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Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by KBABZ » Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:16 am

Dragon Ball Ireland wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:26 am
Everyone probably saw it coming, but Madman are releasing these for Australia. So much for the 30th anniversary being a once in a lifetime legendary remaster :lol:
That price! -gulp-

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Re: Funimation's 30th anniversary collectible home video release

Post by BluezaBladeNZ » Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:31 am

Saw that a few days ago. Certainly making the price tag for the 30th Anniversary set I paid look cheap in comparison. lol Especially if that's the AU price already and will be a tad higher for the NZ release.

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