I've created a guide to the continuities of Dragon Ball

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KBABZ
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Re: I've created a guide to the continuities of Dragon Ball

Post by KBABZ » Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:13 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:The big thing that Super ultimately did was introduce a continuity fork in the road. Whereas before it was simply:

DB->Z/Kai->GT

Now its:

Image

With the Bardock TV Special being dropped in or out depending on if you opt the GT or Super route.
I can actually attest to this, and it even works fairly well for the Funi dubs too. In watching GT dub for the Review of Awesomeness (RIP, again), I haven't come across any information that contradicts the more streamlined plot of Kai. Yes the Tsufruians weren't in Kai, but Baby gives sufficient exposition that it feels like introducing a brand new aspect of Saiyan history, rather than digging an old one back up (which makes sense given that in Japan it was, what, five years since that idea was first introduced in Z? Or the obscure PTETS?). So yeah Kai to GT does work, even in English.

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Re: I've created a guide to the continuities of Dragon Ball

Post by Kunzait_83 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:24 pm

KBABZ wrote:(which makes sense given that in Japan it was, what, five years since that idea was first introduced in Z? Or the obscure PTETS?)
Just to note: back during the mid-90s, the Plan to Eradicate the Saiya-jin OVA was anything but obscure. It was one of the more widely circulated and commonly easy to come across DBZ tapes at the time. The OVA only fell more into obscurity in later years as the 90s wore into 2000s and onward, thanks largely to it both never getting an official U.S. release from FUNimation as well as its only other Japanese release in the DVD era being as a buried extra on the first initial run of the Dragon Boxes (at least prior to the remake that came with Raging Blast 2).

But back in 1994-1997-ish, it was second only to stuff like Z movies 8 and 12 in terms of sheer "everyone and their brother has seen this" ubiquity.
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Re: I've created a guide to the continuities of Dragon Ball

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:26 pm

KBABZ wrote: I can actually attest to this, and it even works fairly well for the Funi dubs too. In watching GT dub for the Review of Awesomeness (RIP, again), I haven't come across any information that contradicts the more streamlined plot of Kai. ). So yeah Kai to GT does work, even in English.
Hard but respectful disagree. If anything really needs to be separated by DB>DBZ>GT and Kai>Super it really is the English dub. Or the Barry Watson era and the post-Watson era. GT’s English dub is such a radical departure from the more faithful Kai to say nothing of the improved acting quality.

Going from Chris Ayres Freeza in Kai to Linda Young in GT alone would be such a whiplash...

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Re: I've created a guide to the continuities of Dragon Ball

Post by KBABZ » Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:48 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:
KBABZ wrote:(which makes sense given that in Japan it was, what, five years since that idea was first introduced in Z? Or the obscure PTETS?)
Just to note: back during the mid-90s, the Plan to Eradicate the Saiya-jin OVA was anything but obscure. It was one of the more widely circulated and commonly easy to come across DBZ tapes at the time. The OVA only fell more into obscurity in later years as the 90s wore into 2000s and onward, thanks largely to it both never getting an official U.S. release from FUNimation as well as its only other Japanese release in the DVD era being as a buried extra on the first initial run of the Dragon Boxes (at least prior to the remake that came with Raging Blast 2).

But back in 1994-1997-ish, it was second only to stuff like Z movies 8 and 12 in terms of sheer "everyone and their brother has seen this" ubiquity.
Ah okay, thanks! I assumed it was in the same bucket as that time travelling telephone game, haha (unless I'm wrong about that too).
MasenkoHA wrote:Hard but respectful disagree. If anything really needs to be separated by DB>DBZ>GT and Kai>Super it really is the English dub. Or the Barry Watson era and the post-Watson era. GT’s English dub is such a radical departure from the more faithful Kai to say nothing of the improved acting quality.
I get that, but I personally didn't want to muddy things by putting dubs into their own continuities, which would probably drive Kunzait insane. It's also a practical way of saying "Hey, here's the classic stuff, and here's the modern stuff", particularly in regards to where GT is supposed go and Bardock's revision.
MasenkoHA wrote:Going from Chris Ayres Freeza in Kai to Linda Young in GT alone would be such a whiplash...
I mean even without that you still get a whiplash from the temp Oolong voice actor, Sabat's differing performance from Ma Junior to "stock" Piccolo, the narrator is now different, the score can be much more modern, not to mention Goku sounding like he finally got around to blowing his damn nose. And I'm not sure if anyone's ever done a Japanese DB > Kai watchthrough around here, but I'd imagine having 20 years between them would make the returning characters sound significantly different too.

Also congrats on your 1,000th post!

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Re: I've created a guide to the continuities of Dragon Ball

Post by ronaldnorth_03 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:34 pm

First of all, it's something I've created, a joke, to bring together all the content released Dragon Ball in a "cohesive" way through various continuities. I'm not imposing on anyone ...

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Re: I've created a guide to the continuities of Dragon Ball

Post by ZodaEX » Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:36 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
ZodaEX wrote:
MasenkoHA wrote:
I never said he did. The hell are you babbling about?
Yes you did you said he wrote the anime, and filler is part of it. You're in major denial.
Nowhere did I say Toriyama wrote the anime. KBABZ said he wrote the STORY, which is true because he wrote the manga. That’s not the same thing as saying he wrote the anime. Nobody said Toriyama wrote the anime. Your poor reading comprehension isn’t my fault.
I apologise that I mixed you up with KBABZ. He was the one that was wrong about the Anime, not you. I'll try and work on my reading comprehension, sorry!

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Re: I've created a guide to the continuities of Dragon Ball

Post by Robo4900 » Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:06 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:GT’s English dub is such a radical departure from the more faithful Kai to say nothing of the improved acting quality.

Going from Chris Ayres Freeza in Kai to Linda Young in GT alone would be such a whiplash...
Indeed. Plus, watching GT via the Funi dub is a mistake in general.

Really, the way I like to look at it is dub viewers should stick to DB+Kai+Super, and only go the DB+Z+GT route if they're willing to try the Japanese version. Not only does this get around the problems of Funi's awful dubbing of Z and GT, but it also gives one of the main points of appeal of DB+Z+GT a lot more weight than in Funi's dub, which is the fact it was a singular, continuous, 11-year run of TV. Meanwhile, Funi's version, about half of the voices -- later much less than that -- of Z 68 to about 194, as well as all of Z 195-291 were recorded first, with DB being recorded around the time of the Cell arc of Z being recorded, then GT was done after that, the specials were done randomly throughout this run, then Z 1-67 were recorded after GT and the movies were all done, then about half of Z 68-194 -- though with the later stuff being much less than half -- was recorded last...
It's a bloody mess; no consistency at all.

In Japanese, it was all done one week to the next across the 11-year run. No redubs, no retakes, no jumping around the recording times, it was all done in sequence, with even a couple of the actors dying during the 11 years it took place over, necessitating a few new castings who you had to get used to, and you would hear settle into their roles in whatever timeframe they had to do so.

Still... If we're talking about GT specifically, I still stand by my old view of: If you must watch GT dubbed, at least seek out the Blue Water dub. Like any dub, a few of the castings are iffy, which will take some getting used to for a newcomer (in this case, the main ones are Kuririn and Vegeta), but such characters are never all that present anyway, thankfully (Vegeta was only even in probably about 8 or 10 episodes of GT. Kuririn was probably only in 5 at most), and the main cast was generally good (and the villains were really great), the actual feel of the thing is spot-on, the scripts are great, and if you're following off the heels of being a Kai viewer, you won't get the jarring problem of most of the cast being the same but some key players are different and they're all far less-developed takes on the characters working under much worse direction, since instead it's just a full, entirely new cast. Granted, that does mean it'll take some time to get into, but if you're a dub-viewer who's giving GT a try in 2019, chances are you're okay to make some allowances and give it some time to grow on you before making judgements.

Ultimately, though, DB+Kai+Super is the best way to bring a newcomer in, as the faster pace of Kai is appealing to many, most people who want to jump in now are aiming to get caught up for Super, and unlike Z, Kai actually has a good dub. So, that's my recommended route. If someone wants to then go and watch GT, the movies, or any of the other things you miss by doing the moder DB+Kai+Super route, they can either watch it on its own, or within the context of the original DB+Z+GT run, preferably with the TV specials and the first Z movie included somewhere. DB+Kai+GT is just a weird thing to do for many reasons. For one thing, the Black Water Mist, and the existence of the Tsufurians were never mentioned in Kai, to my recollection, so the Baby arc would be pretty out-of-no-where for a newcomer who's never seen the original run.

... Thanks for coming to my TedTalk.
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Re: I've created a guide to the continuities of Dragon Ball

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:36 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
MasenkoHA wrote:GT’s English dub is such a radical departure from the more faithful Kai to say nothing of the improved acting quality.

Going from Chris Ayres Freeza in Kai to Linda Young in GT alone would be such a whiplash...
Indeed. Plus, watching GT via the Funi dub is a mistake in general.

Really, the way I like to look at it is dub viewers should stick to DB+Kai+Super, and only go the DB+Z+GT route if they're willing to try the Japanese version. Not only does this get around the problems of Funi's awful dubbing of Z and GT, but it also gives one of the main points of appeal of DB+Z+GT a lot more weight than in Funi's dub, which is the fact it was a singular, continuous, 11-year run of TV. Meanwhile, Funi's version, about half of the voices -- later much less than that -- of Z 68 to about 194, as well as all of Z 195-291 were recorded first, with DB being recorded around the time of the Cell arc of Z being recorded, then GT was done after that, the specials were done randomly throughout this run, then Z 1-67 were recorded after GT and the movies were all done, then about half of Z 68-194 -- though with the later stuff being much less than half -- was recorded last...
It's a bloody mess; no consistency at all.
Seconded. If you try watching DB>DBZ>DBGT dubbed you’re getting a complete clusterfuck. Where the first 220 episodes (that is all of DB and the first 67 episodes of DBZ) sound the most tolerable/passable to utter shit from pretty much until the Great Saiyaman saga. And then GT despite being dubbed after Dragon Ball and DBZ episodes 68-291 manages to also sound like it went backwards.
.
.
Ultimately, though, DB+Kai+Super is the best way to bring a newcomer in, as the faster pace of Kai is appealing to many, most people who want to jump in now are aiming to get caught up for Super, and unlike Z, Kai actually has a good dub. So, that's my recommended route.
Even then it’s hardly ideal because DB’s dub is still a lot closer in style to Z and GT’s dub than Kai and Super. But it’s definitely easier going from Dragon Ball’s dub to Kai to Super than Kai to GT.

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Re: I've created a guide to the continuities of Dragon Ball

Post by Robo4900 » Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:58 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:Even then it’s hardly ideal because DB’s dub is still a lot closer in style to Z and GT’s dub than Kai and Super. But it’s definitely easier going from Dragon Ball’s dub to Kai to Super than Kai to GT.
Well, at least DB+Kai+Super is a linear progression. And unfortunately, there's little to be done.
I suppose one could try seeking out and watching the Blue Water dub of DB to get something a little better (and make no mistake, BW's dub was a little better; started out a lot worse, but by the time the Red Ribbon arc was starting, it caught up, and once you get into the Piccolo arc, it's leaps and bounds ahead), but it'd be pretty jarring to have a complete cast change from DB to Z, and the point here is to have a somewhat coherent viewing experience... So, DB+Kai+Super will have to do... Complete with its own set of dubbing weirdness and ridiculous soundtrack nonsense (From Kikuchi's masterful Dragon Ball score to a crappy assembly of random Kikuchi themes to dull disco/techno/faux-epic music).
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Re: I've created a guide to the continuities of Dragon Ball

Post by Bryesque » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:07 pm

I have always liked the idea of GT existing in the same continuity as the Z movies... IIRC it has cameos of a few movie villains and maybe a couple other references/connections to movie events?

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Re: I've created a guide to the continuities of Dragon Ball

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:14 pm

Robo4900 wrote: Well, at least DB+Kai+Super is a linear progression. And unfortunately, there's little to be done.
True enough. I would almost argue even if you’re otherwise a dub only person just watch Dragon Ball subbed then you can watch Kai and Super in English. If you absolutely have to watch Dragon Ball in English then the 2001 dub is....passable.

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Re: I've created a guide to the continuities of Dragon Ball

Post by Robo4900 » Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:28 pm

Bryesque wrote:I have always liked the idea of GT existing in the same continuity as the Z movies... IIRC it has cameos of a few movie villains and maybe a couple other references/connections to movie events?
It uses the cleansing water from Dragon Ball Z's Garlic Jr. arc (the stuff that cured Garlic's mist that made everyone evil), which followed on from Z movie 1, I guess?
And I think if you look really closely in the Super #17 arc, you can briefly see a cameo from Coola somewhere in a crowd of evildoers from the series.
That's it, though. And with stuff like Black, Blue, and other series antagonists showing up (which doesn't gel with the OG DB movies), and the series in general showing all indications of following on from Z...

It's a cute theory, but ultimately I'm afraid it falls down.
If you want to compare it to any other material in "Continuity status", it's in the same boat as the anime-only material from DB and Z; it's there, it's part of the anime run, but it wasn't Toriyama's original vision, and the modern stuff generally doesn't pay much mind to it outside of cute little shoutouts and nods.
The movies kind of fit this description a little, but almost none of them fit into the story of the show without some serious mental gymnastics that usually barely justify it, and often work under the conceit that the events of the movie weren't quite what you see in the movie... For instance, the first Broly movie fits into the timeline just before the Cell games... But only if Goku and Gohan were Super Saiyan the whole time.
MasenkoHA wrote:True enough. I would almost argue even if you’re otherwise a dub only person just watch Dragon Ball subbed then you can watch Kai and Super in English. If you absolutely have to watch Dragon Ball in English then the 2001 dub is....passable.
Arguably, passable gives it too much credit... With the absence of other options, it'll do, but arguably even the Blue Water dub leaves you better off.
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Re: I've created a guide to the continuities of Dragon Ball

Post by KBABZ » Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:34 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Bryesque wrote:I have always liked the idea of GT existing in the same continuity as the Z movies... IIRC it has cameos of a few movie villains and maybe a couple other references/connections to movie events?
It uses the cleansing water from Dragon Ball Z's Garlic Jr. arc (the stuff that cured Garlic's mist that made everyone evil), which followed on from Z movie 1, I guess?
Alternate-alternate theory: The Garlic Jr. arc is also exclusive to the movie timeline.

(that's your cue to point out all the holes in the idea because I've never seen the movies!)

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Re: I've created a guide to the continuities of Dragon Ball

Post by Robo4900 » Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:37 pm

KBABZ wrote:
Robo4900 wrote:
Bryesque wrote:I have always liked the idea of GT existing in the same continuity as the Z movies... IIRC it has cameos of a few movie villains and maybe a couple other references/connections to movie events?
It uses the cleansing water from Dragon Ball Z's Garlic Jr. arc (the stuff that cured Garlic's mist that made everyone evil), which followed on from Z movie 1, I guess?
Alternate-alternate theory: The Garlic Jr. arc is also exclusive to the movie timeline.

(that's your cue to point out all the holes in the idea because I've never seen the movies!)
Okay, now let's decide that random parts of the series were non-canon and only happened in an alternate side-continuity without anyone noticing. That's not a clunky reach at all. :P

I think it's pretty clear that it's just a case of there being two main anime timelines:

DB + Kai + Super
DB + Z + GT + the specials and kind of Z movie 1.

Then the movies all do their own thing.
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Re: I've created a guide to the continuities of Dragon Ball

Post by KBABZ » Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:48 pm

Robo4900 wrote:Okay, now let's decide that random parts of the series were non-canon and only happened in an alternate side-continuity without anyone noticing. That's not a clunky reach at all. :P
Heheh, yeah, I just reached for it because it's really the only filler arc whose entire premise is based on a movie character.

I am a bit confused though: how does Movie 1 fit into the Z timeline when it basically replaces Raditz with that whole Introduction of Gohan thing?

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Re: I've created a guide to the continuities of Dragon Ball

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:24 am

KBABZ wrote:
Robo4900 wrote:Okay, now let's decide that random parts of the series were non-canon and only happened in an alternate side-continuity without anyone noticing. That's not a clunky reach at all. :P
Heheh, yeah, I just reached for it because it's really the only filler arc whose entire premise is based on a movie character.

I am a bit confused though: how does Movie 1 fit into the Z timeline when it basically replaces Raditz with that whole Introduction of Gohan thing?
I guess the events of movie 1 are suppose to have occured in the Z anime but you have to ignore the contradictions that tends to happen in Toei filler?

Any thought given to it is putting in way more thought than Toei put into it honestly.

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Re: I've created a guide to the continuities of Dragon Ball

Post by KBABZ » Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:48 am

MasenkoHA wrote:Any thought given to it is putting in way more thought than Toei put into it honestly.
A mantra to live by around here.

It's just so whack because the recovery of Gohan is the ENTIRE PLOT of that movie, and there's no time for it to have happened after Raditz. So in order for it to fit, it would have had to have happened without the involvement of Krillin at all. Would that have affected the plot of the movie at all?

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Re: I've created a guide to the continuities of Dragon Ball

Post by Goten_jr » Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:48 am

The big difference between GT&the Movies/Filler is that GT is actually created to push DB as a whole Story further The Movies&Filler are literally just little Sidestorys between the Main Arcs this is why GT is way more relevant to me than the Movies&Filler arcs

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Re: I've created a guide to the continuities of Dragon Ball

Post by ZodaEX » Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:17 pm

Goten_jr wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:48 am The big difference between GT&the Movies/Filler is that GT is actually created to push DB as a whole Story further The Movies&Filler are literally just little Sidestorys between the Main Arcs this is why GT is way more relevant to me than the Movies&Filler arcs
Haha, yeah right. That's funny. Goku had some of the biggest growth in movie 14 than he ever has had.

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Re: I've created a guide to the continuities of Dragon Ball

Post by Goten_jr » Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:56 pm

ZodaEX wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:17 pm
Goten_jr wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:48 am The big difference between GT&the Movies/Filler is that GT is actually created to push DB as a whole Story further The Movies&Filler are literally just little Sidestorys between the Main Arcs this is why GT is way more relevant to me than the Movies&Filler arcs
Haha, yeah right. That's funny. Goku had some of the biggest growth in movie 14 than he ever has had.
I mean the original Z Movies(1-13)

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