Is the Dragon Ball fandom hypocritical about the "Yamcha meme"?

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Re: Is the Dragon Ball fandom hypocritical about the "Yamcha meme"?

Post by Olympian » Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:41 pm

ruler9871 wrote:The idea that Yamcha being a joke/meme character is a Modern DB thing isn't true:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bPx_hK8ZVU

Yamcha was always written as a joke since day one, never a badass.
How quite (t)droll.

You don`t only sound like a broken record but act like one too.

Yamcha being a "badass" (what is even a "badass here"? Someone who isn`t a butt monkey? Someone who always get his arse kicked for the man character? In that lens, who is a badass besides Goku?) is not the issue. It`s not about being courageous either, because Yamcha has been instrumental in saving the Earth twice from a giant ape Goku and also the main character`s main lives.

The issue with Yamcha is that Toryama was too complacent with the writting. Kuririn was easily (and early) taken out at Baba`s tourney. Tenshinhan was easily (and early) taken out at Piccolo`s arc. Same with Chiatzu. The difference is, Yamcha`s case is the one where power levels came around and we knew the Saibamen were argueably weaker than almost everyone. This is even stated again after the Yamcha fight, as if to reinforce it.

It doesn`t really matter if we logic that Yamcha was never stated to use his full power (and that the Saibamen did with the explosion, most obviously) or that they were fighting with tournament estipulations. The power levels gives fans an equal logical reason to be overly critical. The double edge sword is that since Toryama wanted (again) an early sacrifice lamb to sell how dangerous they were (think again of Kuririn at the 22nd Bodukai arc) it meant Yamcha going down in a manner most conflicting with the power levels at disposal - an issue that the mentioned characters above did not had to face because we already knew the opponents in question were indeed stronger

So, if Yamcha was the one stronger one here and *everything in the manga sequence* points that he was, than how did he still got taken out so early? Well, you can say by surprise and that is indeed correct. But the precise manner goes harder than that. He was dumbed down. And this is strike number two: in order for the scene to play as Toryama wanted, he had to make the character and fans narratively forget that Yamcha had already been lectured at not letting his guard down before (against God, for instance).

So, what happens is= power levels + the character now being a cock head idiot.

He wasn`t the only one dumbed down time to time in his series. Take Tenshinan, for instance. Cool head, great tactician...except when he turns his back on a Saibamen who is not knocked out. He only turns back when Chiatzu warns him and he`s lucky that Toryama wanted a suicide dive and a Kikoho to go after, so the dumbing down wasn`t as appearant.

Yamcha was never made into a joke in the series under Toryama, that`s on marketing and the new material/production teams post 2008.
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Re: Is the Dragon Ball fandom hypocritical about the "Yamcha meme"?

Post by ABED » Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:14 pm

Forget about power levels. Kuririn was kept around because he's Goku's best friend. Tenshinhan has always been one of the more solemn characters in DB. Finally, Yamcha has always been relegated to the role of cannon fodder. As has been pointed out in NUMEROUS threads is the concept of power levels has been mostly used to subvert expectations. They are utterly meaningless. If all of the heroes were stated to be stronger, it's to set expectations that the fight will be a cakewalk so that when Yamcha is killed because he took the fight too lightly, the audience will be surprised.

You say Yamcha was dumbed down, but when was he ever shown to be a genius tactician? Being lectured and taking advice are two different things.

Finally, BS that Yamcha was never turned into a joke. He never wins, ever. He's often used as a joke (e.g. his fear of women, and landing on his balls when fighting Shen).
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Re: Is the Dragon Ball fandom hypocritical about the "Yamcha meme"?

Post by Saiga » Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:47 pm

Yamcha was clearly shown being cocky despite having the edge - the power levels don't tell us anything we can't plainly see, so they're not an issue here.

Yamcha even goes as far as to say that he'll take on the remaining Saibaimen himself, which is consistent with the idea that he was getting too full of himself.

We can't say this is out of character because we haven't really seen a case of Yamcha being stronger than his opponent. Most of the time he's the one who is outmatched.
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Re: Is the Dragon Ball fandom hypocritical about the "Yamcha meme"?

Post by ruler9871 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:57 pm

Olympian wrote:
ruler9871 wrote:The idea that Yamcha being a joke/meme character is a Modern DB thing isn't true:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bPx_hK8ZVU

Yamcha was always written as a joke since day one, never a badass.
How quite (t)droll.

You don`t only sound like a broken record but act like one too.

Yamcha being a "badass" (what is even a "badass here"? Someone who isn`t a butt monkey? Someone who always get his arse kicked for the man character? In that lens, who is a badass besides Goku?) is not the issue. It`s not about being courageous either, because Yamcha has been instrumental in saving the Earth twice from a giant ape Goku and also the main character`s main lives.

The issue with Yamcha is that Toryama was too complacent with the writting. Kuririn was easily (and early) taken out at Baba`s tourney. Tenshinhan was easily (and early) taken out at Piccolo`s arc. Same with Chiatzu. The difference is, Yamcha`s case is the one where power levels came around and we knew the Saibamen were argueably weaker than almost everyone. This is even stated again after the Yamcha fight, as if to reinforce it.

It doesn`t really matter if we logic that Yamcha was never stated to use his full power (and that the Saibamen did with the explosion, most obviously) or that they were fighting with tournament estipulations. The power levels gives fans an equal logical reason to be overly critical. The double edge sword is that since Toryama wanted (again) an early sacrifice lamb to sell how dangerous they were (think again of Kuririn at the 22nd Bodukai arc) it meant Yamcha going down in a manner most conflicting with the power levels at disposal - an issue that the mentioned characters above did not had to face because we already knew the opponents in question were indeed stronger

So, if Yamcha was the one stronger one here and *everything in the manga sequence* points that he was, than how did he still got taken out so early? Well, you can say by surprise and that is indeed correct. But the precise manner goes harder than that. He was dumbed down. And this is strike number two: in order for the scene to play as Toryama wanted, he had to make the character and fans narratively forget that Yamcha had already been lectured at not letting his guard down before (against God, for instance).

So, what happens is= power levels + the character now being a cock head idiot.

He wasn`t the only one dumbed down time to time in his series. Take Tenshinan, for instance. Cool head, great tactician...except when he turns his back on a Saibamen who is not knocked out. He only turns back when Chiatzu warns him and he`s lucky that Toryama wanted a suicide dive and a Kikoho to go after, so the dumbing down wasn`t as appearant.

Yamcha was never made into a joke in the series under Toryama, that`s on marketing and the new material/production teams post 2008.
1. The only fight Yamcha has ever won the original manga was against the invisible guy (and even that wasn't portrayed as an impressive battle).

2. When has Yamcha ever been portrayed as a strategist or exceptional skilled?

3. As the Geekdom101 vid points out, Toei & Shonen Jump were already making Yamcha jokes before Z even started.

4. Even as a villain, Yamcha was portrayed in an not-so-threatening silly light. Even Krillin & Chaozu were portrayed in a more dignified way when they were villains.

I wasn't trolling, I was merely stating a fact.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Is the Dragon Ball fandom hypocritical about the "Yamcha meme"?

Post by Green_Goblin » Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:42 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Green_Goblin wrote:
PFM18 wrote:Since when was Raditz 1600? What are you talking about
Image
It was stated as his power level on Earth in his new cards for promoting the "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" movie.
If you're referring to the cards that I think you're referring to, then you misinterpreted it to actually mean power level. LSSJ Broly's card read that it was 9600 or so. But if we are going by conventional scouters power levels; you'd be dumb not to put him into at least the quintillions.
It is explicitly uses the term "battle power" and in the context of Raditz fighting Goku and Piccolo. Have no worries, I almost never misinterpret things. ;)
But that's a topic about Yamcha, not about this card. If you'd open such a thread I'd be glad to partake in it.

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Re: Is the Dragon Ball fandom hypocritical about the "Yamcha meme"?

Post by PFM18 » Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:03 pm

Green_Goblin wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Green_Goblin wrote: Image
It was stated as his power level on Earth in his new cards for promoting the "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" movie.
If you're referring to the cards that I think you're referring to, then you misinterpreted it to actually mean power level. LSSJ Broly's card read that it was 9600 or so. But if we are going by conventional scouters power levels; you'd be dumb not to put him into at least the quintillions.
It is explicitly uses the term "battle power" and in the context of Raditz fighting Goku and Piccolo. Have no worries, I almost never misinterpret things. ;)
But that's a topic about Yamcha, not about this card. If you'd open such a thread I'd be glad to partake in it.
Can you give a link to a translation or an English version? You just posted it in Japanese apparently, and so I cant make anything of it.

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Re: Is the Dragon Ball fandom hypocritical about the "Yamcha meme"?

Post by Green_Goblin » Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:08 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Green_Goblin wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
If you're referring to the cards that I think you're referring to, then you misinterpreted it to actually mean power level. LSSJ Broly's card read that it was 9600 or so. But if we are going by conventional scouters power levels; you'd be dumb not to put him into at least the quintillions.
It is explicitly uses the term "battle power" and in the context of Raditz fighting Goku and Piccolo. Have no worries, I almost never misinterpret things. ;)
But that's a topic about Yamcha, not about this card. If you'd open such a thread I'd be glad to partake in it.
Can you give a link to a translation or an English version? You just posted it in Japanese apparently, and so I cant make anything of it.
You can send me this in a PM, not here. This is a thread about Yamcha.
It's in Herms' translation. This pic was an uploaded with his tweet.

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Re: Is the Dragon Ball fandom hypocritical about the "Yamcha meme"?

Post by ShadowBardock89 » Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:21 pm

Green_Goblin wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Green_Goblin wrote: Image
It was stated as his power level on Earth in his new cards for promoting the "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" movie.
I wouldn't take promotional material seriously.
Maybe as a Great Ape in this age he'd be at 2000. lol
No. The Great Ape multiplier is x10, so Raditz's power level would be 16,000 as an Ape.
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Re: Is the Dragon Ball fandom hypocritical about the "Yamcha meme"?

Post by Green_Goblin » Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:58 pm

ShadowBardock89 wrote:
Green_Goblin wrote:
Maybe as a Great Ape in this age he'd be at 2000. lol
No. The Great Ape multiplier is x10, so Raditz's power level would be 16,000 as an Ape.
Again: THIS IS A THREAD ABOUT YAMCHA!
I was referring to the card that was brought in the link.

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Re: Is the Dragon Ball fandom hypocritical about the "Yamcha meme"?

Post by Kuwabara » Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:59 pm

As far as humans go, Yamcha is a badass. Memes are stupid and exaggerate everything for cheap, lazy humor.
This is the episode of when Gokuh enrages himself after Freezer talk shit about Kuririn

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Re: Is the Dragon Ball fandom hypocritical about the "Yamcha meme"?

Post by ABED » Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:02 pm

Kuwabara wrote:As far as humans go, Yamcha is a badass. Memes are stupid and exaggerate everything for cheap, lazy humor.
Sure, compared to us. Compared to his friends, he's no badass.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Is the Dragon Ball fandom hypocritical about the "Yamcha meme"?

Post by Kuwabara » Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:07 pm

ABED wrote:Sure, compared to us. Compared to his friends, he's no badass.
Playing baseball with Gods and winning is pretty badass if you ask me.
This is the episode of when Gokuh enrages himself after Freezer talk shit about Kuririn

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Re: Is the Dragon Ball fandom hypocritical about the "Yamcha meme"?

Post by ABED » Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:10 pm

Kuwabara wrote:
ABED wrote:Sure, compared to us. Compared to his friends, he's no badass.
Playing baseball with Gods and winning is pretty badass if you ask me.
Seems like a fairly trivial victory to me.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Is the Dragon Ball fandom hypocritical about the "Yamcha meme"?

Post by PFM18 » Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:12 pm

Green_Goblin wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Green_Goblin wrote: It is explicitly uses the term "battle power" and in the context of Raditz fighting Goku and Piccolo. Have no worries, I almost never misinterpret things. ;)
But that's a topic about Yamcha, not about this card. If you'd open such a thread I'd be glad to partake in it.
Can you give a link to a translation or an English version? You just posted it in Japanese apparently, and so I cant make anything of it.
You can send me this in a PM, not here. This is a thread about Yamcha.
It's in Herms' translation. This pic was an uploaded with his tweet.
Threads evolve. You claimed that Raditz was officially 1600(during this thread about Yamcha), and I was asking for an English source of such a thing.

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Re: Is the Dragon Ball fandom hypocritical about the "Yamcha meme"?

Post by Green_Goblin » Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:20 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Green_Goblin wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Can you give a link to a translation or an English version? You just posted it in Japanese apparently, and so I cant make anything of it.
You can send me this in a PM, not here. This is a thread about Yamcha.
It's in Herms' translation. This pic was an uploaded with his tweet.
Threads evolve. You claimed that Raditz was officially 1600(during this thread about Yamcha), and I was asking for an English source of such a thing.
And I've answered and you read it and should've moved on from that back to the main topic we are here to discuss. :wave:

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Re: Is the Dragon Ball fandom hypocritical about the "Yamcha meme"?

Post by PFM18 » Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:31 pm

Green_Goblin wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Green_Goblin wrote: You can send me this in a PM, not here. This is a thread about Yamcha.
It's in Herms' translation. This pic was an uploaded with his tweet.
Threads evolve. You claimed that Raditz was officially 1600(during this thread about Yamcha), and I was asking for an English source of such a thing.
And I've answered and you read it and should've moved on from that back to the main topic we are here to discuss. :wave:
No, you didn't.

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Re: Is the Dragon Ball fandom hypocritical about the "Yamcha meme"?

Post by Kuwabara » Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:52 pm

ABED wrote:Seems like a fairly trivial victory to me.
Okay, how about getting a hand shoved through you by a super cyborg and living to tell about it?

And going back to what you said about Yamcha compared to his friends, how about Goku? He took a ray gun laser through the chest by a relative grunt and nobody calls him a pansy or a joke, in fact that falls in line with what you talked about up thread regarding the subversion of expectations. If anything, the Saibeimen scene should be treated the same way, but that wouldn't be memearific because Yamcha's the defacto Epic Fail Man! :clap: :clap: :clap:

Even ignoring feats, Yamcha's a badass because of his attitude and outlook on life. The way he grows as a character, as a man, and takes challenges head on in spite of his shortcomings is relatable and something everyone should aspire to. Sure, he's portrayed in a more humorous light than other characters from time to time, but in general he's meant to be taken positively. Fans are the ones who cheapen him, and marketers noticed.
This is the episode of when Gokuh enrages himself after Freezer talk shit about Kuririn

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Re: Is the Dragon Ball fandom hypocritical about the "Yamcha meme"?

Post by ABED » Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:15 pm

Kuwabara wrote:
ABED wrote:Seems like a fairly trivial victory to me.
Okay, how about getting a hand shoved through you by a super cyborg and living to tell about it?

And going back to what you said about Yamcha compared to his friends, how about Goku? He took a ray gun laser through the chest by a relative grunt and nobody calls him a pansy or a joke, in fact that falls in line with what you talked about up thread regarding the subversion of expectations. If anything, the Saibeimen scene should be treated the same way, but that wouldn't be memearific because Yamcha's the defacto Epic Fail Man! :clap: :clap: :clap:

Even ignoring feats, Yamcha's a badass because of his attitude and outlook on life. The way he grows as a character, as a man, and takes challenges head on in spite of his shortcomings is relatable and something everyone should aspire to. Sure, he's portrayed in a more humorous light than other characters from time to time, but in general he's meant to be taken positively. Fans are the ones who cheapen him, and marketers noticed.
While it's impressive that he lived long enough to be get a senzu, I wouldn't say that makes him a badass.

The big difference between Goku and Yamcha is Goku has a boatload of moments that show how tough he is, so one moment where he (illogically) gets injured by a grunt is the exception that proves the rule. Yamcha is the opposite. A single moment where he shows some toughness doesn't prove he's a badass.

I like Yamcha, but he's not a badass. The fans took note of what Toriyama wrote. He's the first guy taken out nearly every single time. He was deathly afraid of females in the first arc, never gets passed the first round of the TB, gets killed by a grunt, and 20 puts a hole through his torso at the beginning of an arc.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Is the Dragon Ball fandom hypocritical about the "Yamcha meme"?

Post by J.T. Drago » Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:17 pm

I know these were filler, but it was nice of Toei to give Yamcha a win when he fought Recoome on King Kai's Planet. There is also that Gravity Room scene. I know what he did was stupid, trying to prove himself, but the fact he was still able to move at all at 300G is still impressive.

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Re: Is the Dragon Ball fandom hypocritical about the "Yamcha meme"?

Post by Green_Goblin » Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:38 am

J.T. Drago wrote:I know these were filler, but it was nice of Toei to give Yamcha a win when he fought Recoome on King Kai's Planet. There is also that Gravity Room scene. I know what he did was stupid, trying to prove himself, but the fact he was still able to move at all at 300G is still impressive.
And don't forget the Yamcha action scenes in the Garlic Jr. Saga, Yamcha and Tien's combined effort in blocking a Cell Jr. from hurting the exhausted SSJ Goku (Piccolo asked them to save him, showing he trusted their strength), his aid to SSJ 2 Gohan alongside Piccolo, Tien and Krillin in distracting Super Perfect Cell from the sides.

As well as his scenes regaining his fighting passion from the Fusion Saga and the scene when King Kai suggest to send Krillin and Yamcha to fight Buuhan as substitutes for Goku and Vegeta after Vegetto was turned into a candy, implying they're his NEXT BEST students. And then we have Yamcha OWNS BOTH Olibu and Winged Gorilla without breaking a sweat, Yamcha and Krillin's sparring fight which shows they're at the same power tier, and then their fight against Kid Buu in the Grand Kai's Planet after he destroyed the Earth, the two of them stayed the longest on their feets when even Pikkon was down.

And in the new Dragon Ball era, we have his saving of Bulma, Puar and Oolong in the "Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!" with the Sokidan; And in Super we have him slapping Beerus on the back without getting pawnded by the God of Destruction during Bulma's birthday, being the one who tells his friends to initiate something to hide Monaka's secret in episode 43 and being the Captain of Team Universe 7 and the MVP of the baseball match against Universe 6 in episode 70.

Toei sure love Yamcha.

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