How much discussion of "canon" was there pre-BOG?

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How much discussion of "canon" was there pre-BOG?

Post by PremiumSalt » Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:07 am

Given that I was never really a part of the fandom in that era, I'm kinda curious, because it seems as though much of the canon discussions are centered around the new material "overriding" some of the old supplemental material (GT, the movies, etc.)
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Re: How much discussion of "canon" was there pre-BOG?

Post by Zephyr » Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:14 am

I searched for threads that contain the word "canon" in the title, and got four pages worth of results. 3 out of those 4 were made after Battle of Gods came out in Japan.

So I guess the answer is "not as much as we've got now". Though, to be fair, we didn't have as much activity in general here pre-BoG as we do now.

Back then, most "canon" discussions seemed to involve "headcanon" stuff, and whether or not the anime, the films, and GT were "canon".

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Re: How much discussion of "canon" was there pre-BOG?

Post by KBABZ » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:11 am

Makes sense. In these discussions, there are usually two important factors: Toriyama's involvement, and what other works something connects to.

As we should all know/realize by now, Dragon Ball has no "canon" as such (there's no official word on the matter, every work treats continuity as seriously as all the others, etc), but as ABED mentions a lot on this subject, the original manga has always been considered "true" to all the others unless otherwise stated, such as in video game What If stories or That Time I Got Reincarnated As Yamcha. The best evidence for this is how the manga has affected the anime. The "vengeful god" explanation is out, the Frieza paranoia one is in.

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Re: How much discussion of "canon" was there pre-BOG?

Post by vegetaslegacy15 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:24 am

From what I remember, most discussions before battle of gods usually were if the ssj multiplier slowly decreased as the Saiyans got more powerful, what form Gohan used to fight dabura, and if kid buu was the strongest form of buu or if it was super boo
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Re: How much discussion of "canon" was there pre-BOG?

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:56 pm

I remembered many people having regarded GT as non canon even before it was directly contradicted by Super, though some of these arguments for why it couldn’t be canon boiled down to certain perceived “inconsistencies” with the end of the manga.

The two main “inconsistencies” in question had to do with the Pilaf Gang still being alive (the general argument was that they shouldn’t be alive, since Porunga was asked not to revive the evil people killed by Boo), and Gohan having lost his “mystic” power up. Funnily enough, both these things ended up happening in the post-BoG era.

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Re: How much discussion of "canon" was there pre-BOG?

Post by KBABZ » Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:13 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:56 pm
The two main “inconsistencies” in question had to do with the Pilaf Gang still being alive (the general argument was that they shouldn’t be alive, since Porunga was asked not to revive the evil people killed by Boo), and Gohan having lost his “mystic” power up. Funnily enough, both these things ended up happening in the post-BoG era.
I think the Pilaf Gang gets a pass because they're depicted as pretty decrepit in the opening episode. I haven't watched GT far enough (and in the right language) to have come across Gohan's de-power, but for me Gohan's inability to "show up" in a fight can be pointed on the writing, with its focus on Vegeta and especially Goku.

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Re: How much discussion of "canon" was there pre-BOG?

Post by Gligarman » Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:37 pm

As far as I'm concerned prior to BOG, if it wasn't in the manga then it wasn't canon. It's a bit different now but I still consider BOG and RF to be canon above their manga counterparts minus Goku receiving the money from Mr. Satan. I do know that Toyotaro works a bit closer with Toriyama than the anime writing staff does so it's pretty much a matter of picking your poison.

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Re: How much discussion of "canon" was there pre-BOG?

Post by funrush » Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:43 pm

Not often because there wasn't really much to discuss. Sometimes people would note that they considered the manga and the anime to be separate entities, or some people would say that they disregard GT, but that was pretty much it.

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Re: How much discussion of "canon" was there pre-BOG?

Post by Chilly » Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:27 pm

vegetaslegacy15 wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:24 am
From what I remember, most discussions before battle of gods usually were if the ssj multiplier slowly decreased as the Saiyans got more powerful, what form Gohan used to fight dabura, and if kid buu was the strongest form of buu or if it was super boo
I'd agree with this. Pre-Battle of Gods, I'd mostly see these specific topics on random forums. Now is vastly different. Just among the Super "anime vs. manga" topic of discussion, there's a sea of canon threads and whatnot. But I guess that comes with the territory of new material. :think:

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Re: How much discussion of "canon" was there pre-BOG?

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:07 am

I was away from the fandom for over a decade, but I recall Movies + GT vs Manga material

The real canon LSS, Broly vs SS4 Goku... two non-canon characters fighting for canonization lol

Mostly I remember discussions regarding GT as unofficially canon and having more weight than the movies.

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Re: How much discussion of "canon" was there pre-BOG?

Post by Gokitalo » Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:37 pm

I think the topic of "canon" seemed a little more clear-cut in the minds of fans before Super came into being. A lot fans in other communities I've been in considered the original manga to be the "true canon" and often discouraged people from using anime-only/"filler" scenes to make a point about things like, say, a character's strength, as Toriyama didn't always have input in those scenes (though thanks to Kanzenshuu, we do know he contributed to the anime a fair bit!). GT tended to be treated as non-canon, since Toriyama's input was extremely minimal and mostly limited to early designs (and the title).

I think when it comes to Dragon Ball and Z, there are people who still kind of take that approach. Super's complicated the matter of canon quite a bit, however, which is why some have concluded that there isn't really a canon at all. And when it comes to Super, maybe the best approach IS not to focus on "what's canon" and instead be clear about which version of the series (i.e. anime or manga) you're talking about, e.g. "anime Jiren is this strong because he can do this, that and that, while manga Jiren etc." You can't really treat the anime and manga versions of the characters as one and the same anymore and frankly, arguing over which one is more "valid" or "official" than the other just isn''t much fun, at least not to me. I think moving away from the concept of canon-- at least for Super-- is kind of freeing, actually.

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Re: How much discussion of "canon" was there pre-BOG?

Post by sintzu » Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:54 pm

Before BOG fans generally agreed that the events of the manga were canon and everything else were side stories. BOG and everything written after are collaborate efforts between Toriyama and other people so personally I don't think they should be put on the same level of canon as the original manga, especially with there being different versions of each story.
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Re: How much discussion of "canon" was there pre-BOG?

Post by Robo4900 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:12 pm

I used to see "Canon" talk popping up a bit around when Kai happened.

The idea was: Filler, the movies, and GT are "Non-canon", and everything else is canon. This popped up a lot more after BOG. Though honestly, I find that kinda surprising, since BOG actually fits into the original anime timeline just fine, filler, GT, and all. It was only when ResF showed up that this messed up. And then Super complicated it even further when it retold BOG and ResF...
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or That Time I Got Reincarnated As Yamcha.
If you've read the whole thing, you'd know it's entirely possible it was canonical to the currently-running Super storyline.
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Re: How much discussion of "canon" was there pre-BOG?

Post by KBABZ » Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:00 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:12 pm
KBABZ wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:11 am
or That Time I Got Reincarnated As Yamcha.
If you've read the whole thing, you'd know it's entirely possible it was canonical to the currently-running Super storyline.
To be fair I haven't read any Dragon Ball material from after 1995, haha.

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Re: How much discussion of "canon" was there pre-BOG?

Post by Robo4900 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:05 pm

KBABZ wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:00 pm
Robo4900 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:12 pm
KBABZ wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:11 am
or That Time I Got Reincarnated As Yamcha.
If you've read the whole thing, you'd know it's entirely possible it was canonical to the currently-running Super storyline.
To be fair I haven't read any Dragon Ball material from after 1995, haha.
Fair.

Honestly, the Yamcha manga is awesome. It's free on Viz's site right now; give it a read. It's quite short, and a lot of fun. :)
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Re: How much discussion of "canon" was there pre-BOG?

Post by ABED » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:29 pm

I can't add much beyond, there was some, but not as much. It makes sense given that the most you could say about the subject was due to the material the anime added. After Battle of Gods, we're dealing with two different paths the story takes between Super and GT since they clearly contradict each other. But even Super which is supposed to take place neatly between Buu's defeat and the final Tenkaichi Budokai radically changes the context of the ending. Then there's the pesky issue of the difference between the Super anime and Super manga.

Canon has become more ever present since the ease of access to these stories even in different media has made consuming it all far easier. Still I think many people put too much emphasis on whether everything fits neatly together like some sort of jigsaw than whether the stories are any good.
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Re: How much discussion of "canon" was there pre-BOG?

Post by KBABZ » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:11 pm

ABED wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:29 pm
Canon has become more ever present since the ease of access to these stories even in different media has made consuming it all far easier.
Yeah. I imagine the anime could get away with things like Roshi's Dragon Ball origin story and the old origin for the destruction of Planet Vegeta and acting like they never happened simply through the passage of time, since by the time they were clarified it would have been months or even YEARS since the old statement was made. And of course you couldn't go back and compare unless you taped and had access to that episode or got the DVD release in the 2000s (was Dragon Ball ever re-run in Japan?).

It got trickier in the US, at least where I live, where it would be aired every weekday after school, so you rocketed through the story much faster than in Japan.
ABED wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:29 pm
I think many people put too much emphasis on whether everything fits neatly together like some sort of jigsaw than whether the stories are any good.
Despite my love of organizing things, this is also very important. I've said it before, but just because a story isn't canon doesn't mean it cannot have interesting and long-standing stories and characters. It's part of the charm of the What If? scenarios in the PS2 games.

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Re: How much discussion of "canon" was there pre-BOG?

Post by Soccerjam » Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:30 pm

THEY NEVER EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER SHUT UP ABOUT IT!!!! :evil:

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Re: How much discussion of "canon" was there pre-BOG?

Post by Grimlock » Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:52 pm

Yeah, the discussion about canonicity was and it will always be there. Whether it would be in franchises that do have it officially established or in franchises that do not. Now, "how much" depends on you, actually. You can avoid it (forums, threads, chats, groups and etc. about such subject) and rarely will you see people discussing it. Or if you like to discuss it, it's rather easy to find places to do so and search for the history of discussion about canonicity in that place.

Kazenshuu itself might serve as an example. The forum is older than all of us (joking =P). No, but really, the forum is old so I bet you'll might get traces of canon discussion dating back to 2004 here, and even before that in some other places.
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Re: How much discussion of "canon" was there pre-BOG?

Post by Bebi Hatchiyack » Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:19 pm

I can say for sure that there was a before and an after BoG. In fact before entering Kanzenshuu I was in other Forum (French one) and if I recall correctly the discussion were mostly about Power Level and other small stuff than canon.

I think no I state that Dragon Ball Super triggered this trend talk about Canon. That's crazy when we think about it how discussion can shift over the year and how a small serie such as Dragon Ball Super makes everyone jumped the gun in the canon talk. :wtf:

That being said before or after BoG the canon was always important as I want to outline what's exactly is from Toriyama and what isn't. It's important for a project I am working on.
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