How much discussion of "canon" was there pre-BOG?
Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff
Re: How much discussion of "canon" was there pre-BOG?
As you can tell, I didn't post much here in that time. I was more active on 4chan and other sites, and there wasn't really much talk about canon. People would sometimes talk about Online vs GT, and the argument would get shut down by the phrase 'Which one did Toriyama write?'
But, there was no real reason to talk about canon outside of the more "hardcore DB fan" (such a dumb phrase to write) discussions, as DBO was Korean only and GT was the ending most common fans knew. Neko Majin was accepted as just a comedic side story. Canon only really became a talking point with Battle of Gods, since it threw out GT, and then canon became an even bigger talking point with the fact that we have two series both called Super that contradict each other in various ways. Obviously, the canonical one is the one published by Shueisha, but it's better to throw out canon as a concept and just accept everything as different continuities at this point. It's easier and less causes less arguments. Also let's you live in your own little bubble where DBO still matters.
But, there was no real reason to talk about canon outside of the more "hardcore DB fan" (such a dumb phrase to write) discussions, as DBO was Korean only and GT was the ending most common fans knew. Neko Majin was accepted as just a comedic side story. Canon only really became a talking point with Battle of Gods, since it threw out GT, and then canon became an even bigger talking point with the fact that we have two series both called Super that contradict each other in various ways. Obviously, the canonical one is the one published by Shueisha, but it's better to throw out canon as a concept and just accept everything as different continuities at this point. It's easier and less causes less arguments. Also let's you live in your own little bubble where DBO still matters.
MAL: https://myanimelist.net/animelist/Kuropika_Kurta
Switch FC: SW-3139-1141-2342
Switch FC: SW-3139-1141-2342
Re: How much discussion of "canon" was there pre-BOG?
But you yourself is living in your little bubble with contradictory claims. Feels kinda weird, doesn't it?
Re: How much discussion of "canon" was there pre-BOG?
I remember canon talk as early as 2007-2008. GT got a lot of flack, and I remember the forums I'd frequent, YouTube comment sections, and my friends would all say "Well, GT doesn't matter. It isn't canon." I also remember people discussing certain moments from DB/DBZ on forums, and others constantly chiming in saying "It wasn't in the manga, so it isn't canon." It was definitely happening on a consistent basis pre-BoG, but of course anime canon talk in general has become more rampant as time has gone on.
- KBABZ
- Born 'n Bred Here
- Posts: 5180
- Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:38 pm
- Location: The tallest tower in West City
Re: How much discussion of "canon" was there pre-BOG?
I'm curious how much people were talking about "Anime Canon vs Manga Canon" and how common the idea of that kind of separation was.Forte224 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:55 am I remember canon talk as early as 2007-2008. GT got a lot of flack, and I remember the forums I'd frequent, YouTube comment sections, and my friends would all say "Well, GT doesn't matter. It isn't canon." I also remember people discussing certain moments from DB/DBZ on forums, and others constantly chiming in saying "It wasn't in the manga, so it isn't canon." It was definitely happening on a consistent basis pre-BoG, but of course anime canon talk in general has become more rampant as time has gone on.
-
- I Live Here
- Posts: 4170
- Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
- Location: Houston, Texas
Re: How much discussion of "canon" was there pre-BOG?
A common argument I remembered hearing was that the manga was the only canon, and that everything else was essentially just fan fiction. Basically, if Toriyama didn’t write it, then it’s irrelevant.KBABZ wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:29 amI'm curious how much people were talking about "Anime Canon vs Manga Canon" and how common the idea of that kind of separation was.Forte224 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:55 am I remember canon talk as early as 2007-2008. GT got a lot of flack, and I remember the forums I'd frequent, YouTube comment sections, and my friends would all say "Well, GT doesn't matter. It isn't canon." I also remember people discussing certain moments from DB/DBZ on forums, and others constantly chiming in saying "It wasn't in the manga, so it isn't canon." It was definitely happening on a consistent basis pre-BoG, but of course anime canon talk in general has become more rampant as time has gone on.
Re: How much discussion of "canon" was there pre-BOG?
My experience:
Before 2010, there was too litle discussion about canon: Toriyama’s manga was canon, anime, games etc weren’t. Even daizenshuu wasn’t considerated cannon since that power levels were not logical if you read the manga. However, some people considered Bardock special was canon since Toriyama said “It’s like authentic db”, while other fans considered wasn’t canon since plot was written by Takao Koyama.
In 2010, when the game Dragon Ball online came out, some fans considered that was canon since Toriyama was working in it, but others didn’t accept dbo was canon.
And when they release BoG...you know
Before 2010, there was too litle discussion about canon: Toriyama’s manga was canon, anime, games etc weren’t. Even daizenshuu wasn’t considerated cannon since that power levels were not logical if you read the manga. However, some people considered Bardock special was canon since Toriyama said “It’s like authentic db”, while other fans considered wasn’t canon since plot was written by Takao Koyama.
In 2010, when the game Dragon Ball online came out, some fans considered that was canon since Toriyama was working in it, but others didn’t accept dbo was canon.
And when they release BoG...you know
- Ringworm128
- Banned
- Posts: 2976
- Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:27 am
Re: How much discussion of "canon" was there pre-BOG?
From what I remember it was mostly arguments on whether GT was canon, and which of the movies could fit in with the manga.
-
- Beyond Newbie
- Posts: 139
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:46 am
Re: How much discussion of "canon" was there pre-BOG?
Only when Dragon Ball Online was out i think, so somewhere between 2008-2010. Because it has a different ending to GT. Plus "Yo! Son Goku and friends" was the first "official" 10 year gap content. That's when the hate for GT became louder than ever and thus the PASSIONATE debate for any Toriyama involvement started.
ShadowWolf87 wrote:Freeza beat Goku, beat Vegeta, and destroyed the Earth. Even if no one else knows it, who does? Goku.
Who gets told it's his fault for being so careless? Goku.
Who has to live with that similar to how he wanted to make Freeza live with the fact he'd been beaten by what he considered trash, and have to live with that shame? Goku.
Freeza got the perfect revenge.
Re: How much discussion of "canon" was there pre-BOG?
As far as I know, canon was easy to figure out prior to the release of the Super anime. The manga was the single source of canon. Anything else was typically seen as "filler" or noncanon by most of the fanbase.
The problem with Super was that the manga started as a promotional tool and not as a standalone work and it continued that way for a while. Even now, it is incomplete on its own.
Prior to Super, it was rare for people see each source (anime, manga, movies, games) as their own canon continuities. Dragon Ball Multiverse put a spotlight on this idea with their what-if scenario universes. I used to argue that the DBZ anime events were canon to the anime (because I liked the humans vs. Ginyu scene), but I eventually let that stance go as I got deeper into the fandom.
Nowadays, I've once more adopted the stance that each source of Dragon Ball is its own continuity and all are canon to that (all anime events are canon to the anime, all manga events to the manga, movie events to the movies, etc.) and I think many more people have adopted this stance these days with Super and retroactively apply it to DBZ. But a lot of people also still hold Toriyama's original manga run as the canon source and whatever contradicts that is non-canon.
The problem with Super was that the manga started as a promotional tool and not as a standalone work and it continued that way for a while. Even now, it is incomplete on its own.
Prior to Super, it was rare for people see each source (anime, manga, movies, games) as their own canon continuities. Dragon Ball Multiverse put a spotlight on this idea with their what-if scenario universes. I used to argue that the DBZ anime events were canon to the anime (because I liked the humans vs. Ginyu scene), but I eventually let that stance go as I got deeper into the fandom.
Nowadays, I've once more adopted the stance that each source of Dragon Ball is its own continuity and all are canon to that (all anime events are canon to the anime, all manga events to the manga, movie events to the movies, etc.) and I think many more people have adopted this stance these days with Super and retroactively apply it to DBZ. But a lot of people also still hold Toriyama's original manga run as the canon source and whatever contradicts that is non-canon.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-
- VegettoEX
- Kanzenshuu Co-Owner & Administrator
- Posts: 17541
- Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:10 pm
- Location: New Jersey
- Contact:
Re: How much discussion of "canon" was there pre-BOG?
Just a heads-up that this thread was two years old -- I can't imagine many of those folks are still actively looking to discuss what they tossed out there.
I'd just also add that I don't know -- and there's certainly nothing wrong with it, since everyone comes from different places at different times -- that many folks discussing these have quite enough history to really answer this with a deeper well of historical fandom knowledge.
So coming from a literal skeleton sitting at a keyboard, please rest assured that people were debating the canonicity of literally everything, including debating the authority of V-Jump comments, before web-based message boards were even really a thing-
https://twitter.com/VegettoEX/status/14 ... 5324069890
I'd just also add that I don't know -- and there's certainly nothing wrong with it, since everyone comes from different places at different times -- that many folks discussing these have quite enough history to really answer this with a deeper well of historical fandom knowledge.
So coming from a literal skeleton sitting at a keyboard, please rest assured that people were debating the canonicity of literally everything, including debating the authority of V-Jump comments, before web-based message boards were even really a thing-
https://twitter.com/VegettoEX/status/14 ... 5324069890
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::
-
- I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
- Posts: 1555
- Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:10 am
- Location: Earth-1218
- Contact:
Re: How much discussion of "canon" was there pre-BOG?
I've been frequenting this site, and one other Dragon Ball fansite for a decade and a half and there was always talks about canon especially with differences between Toriyama's manga, Toei's anime, and Toei's movies and specials.
The bulk of the discussion were mostly centered around getting the movies to fit. Or "I don't like GT, so it doesn't count".
BoF, RF, and Super just gave us an alternate set of events to figure into the "Conanical" End of Z and continuation with GT. Who knows, maybe the discrepencies won't evn be brought up and they say End of Z and GT still happened.
The bulk of the discussion were mostly centered around getting the movies to fit. Or "I don't like GT, so it doesn't count".
BoF, RF, and Super just gave us an alternate set of events to figure into the "Conanical" End of Z and continuation with GT. Who knows, maybe the discrepencies won't evn be brought up and they say End of Z and GT still happened.
Playstation Network ID/Xbox Gamer Tag: AnonymousFriend
Wii FriendCode: 1003 3740 6652 4063
Wii FriendCode: 1003 3740 6652 4063
Re: How much discussion of "canon" was there pre-BOG?
Whoops, sorry about that. I didn't even notice. Funny how it was revived in the same month it was last responded in.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-
Re: How much discussion of "canon" was there pre-BOG?
honestly i think the whole canon "controversity" was mainly just about GT.. I´m not saying that GT was ever canon but people who didn´t like it just used canonicity as a tool to question GT´s existence.Nobody ever questioned pikkon´s, broly´s,Gogeta´s or the movies existence quite the opposite in fact they tried to fit the movies into the "canon" timeline because the majority of people liked it.And one more reason for the discussion was that GT was produced and marketed as an official Sequel to the DBZ Anime so it holds a much heavier value than for example Movies and Filler which is supposed to be little Side Storys between main arcs or Dragonball Online which is obviously just a game.