How on target or off base is this video discussing Racism in Dragon Ball?

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Re: How on target or off base is this video discussing Racism in Dragon Ball?

Post by ABED » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:02 pm

I've never found that inherently racist.
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Re: How on target or off base is this video discussing Racism in Dragon Ball?

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:05 pm

ABED wrote:
MasenkoHA wrote:Staff Officer Black despite being problematic was second-in-command something could be said about him losing his shit though
Why was he problematic and what was wrong with him losing it at the end?
.
From his name being Burakku Sanbo to his apperarance with the over exaggerated lips.

And I’m not saying that was in anyway the intent but the fact that he shoots his boss and completely loses it could be read as playing into the angry black man stereotype.

Again I don’t think that was on Toriyama’s mind but the read is there.


Anyways, my original point was the creator of video mistakenly stated that Black was a low ranking officer when he was in fact second-in-command.
Last edited by MasenkoHA on Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How on target or off base is this video discussing Racism in Dragon Ball?

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:06 pm

ABED wrote:I've never found that inherently racist.
How many other characters in Dragon Ball that aren’t black do you see drawn with oversized lips?

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Re: How on target or off base is this video discussing Racism in Dragon Ball?

Post by ABED » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:12 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
ABED wrote:I've never found that inherently racist.
How many other characters in Dragon Ball that aren’t black do you see drawn with oversized lips?
Blacks on average have bigger lips than Asians and whites.
Even so, what do you think it says showing a race having bigger lips than the others?

And given what Black got upset about, his rage wasn't caricature-ish. I understand why a writer should tread lightly and it would be dependent on execution, but Black's emotions stemmed from the situation and came out of character. He was upset that the leader whose vision he believed in was after something SO trivial.
Last edited by ABED on Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How on target or off base is this video discussing Racism in Dragon Ball?

Post by jjgp1112 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:16 pm

ABED wrote:
MasenkoHA wrote:
ABED wrote:I've never found that inherently racist.
How many other characters in Dragon Ball that aren’t black do you see drawn with oversized lips?
Blacks on average have bigger lips than Asians and whites.
Even so, what do you think it says showing a race having bigger lips than the others?

And given what Black got upset about, his rage wasn't caricature-ish.
Black's lips are drawn in a way to evoke a very specific type of caricature, though.
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Re: How on target or off base is this video discussing Racism in Dragon Ball?

Post by ABED » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:20 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:
ABED wrote:
MasenkoHA wrote:
How many other characters in Dragon Ball that aren’t black do you see drawn with oversized lips?
Blacks on average have bigger lips than Asians and whites.
Even so, what do you think it says showing a race having bigger lips than the others?

And given what Black got upset about, his rage wasn't caricature-ish.
Black's lips are drawn in a way to evoke a very specific type of caricature, though.
I can see why someone might see it that way, but given the incredibly cartoonish and rounded drawing style, my mind doesn't immediately jump to black face. Mr. Popo is different in that he's taken from actual racist caricatures, that along with the syntax of his dialog. I'll give you the name, but other than that, I'm not seeing something caricature-ish about the character.
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Re: How on target or off base is this video discussing Racism in Dragon Ball?

Post by MyVisionity » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:55 pm

ABED wrote:
jjgp1112 wrote:
ABED wrote:Blacks on average have bigger lips than Asians and whites.
Even so, what do you think it says showing a race having bigger lips than the others?

And given what Black got upset about, his rage wasn't caricature-ish.
Black's lips are drawn in a way to evoke a very specific type of caricature, though.
I can see why someone might see it that way, but given the incredibly cartoonish and rounded drawing style, my mind doesn't immediately jump to black face. Mr. Popo is different in that he's taken from actual racist caricatures, that along with the syntax of his dialog. I'll give you the name, but other than that, I'm not seeing something caricature-ish about the character.
The lips are all you need to play into the caricature. It doesn't matter that Black people might tend to have bigger lips than other races. The Sambo caricature exists, and the lips are a part of that caricature. Again, the intent or motivation is irrelevant.

Also, as you said, the name is apparently "Black Sambo". That in connection to the lips is a no-brainer.

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Re: How on target or off base is this video discussing Racism in Dragon Ball?

Post by ABED » Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:29 pm

MyVisionity wrote:The lips are all you need to play into the caricature.
Is that really ALL you need?

And when was his name Black Sambo? I don't recall that.

Lastly, I do think intent matters. Racism isn't a matter of just ignorance, which is why I and from what I can gather, most people here, don't condemn Toriyama as a racist jackass. Racially insensitive? Sure, but not racist.
Last edited by ABED on Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How on target or off base is this video discussing Racism in Dragon Ball?

Post by KBABZ » Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:42 pm

ABED wrote:
MyVisionity wrote:The lips are all you need to play into the caricature.
Is that really ALL you need?

And when was his name Black Sambo? I don't recall that.
VegettoEX explained it on the last page:
VegettoEX wrote:seeing his name in Japanese in the anime is ブラック参謀 (Burakku Sanbō), and going hoooooooooly shit whaaaaaaaat were you thinking (and if you don't already see the connection, going in and learning all about it).
And yes, that really is all you need. The lips are the bits of Mr. Popo that gets censored by Viz, and it's the reason why he and Jinx get coloured blue/purple in their anime.

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Re: How on target or off base is this video discussing Racism in Dragon Ball?

Post by ABED » Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:49 pm

And yes, that really is all you need. The lips are the bits of Mr. Popo that gets censored by Viz, and it's the reason why he and Jinx get coloured blue/purple in their anime.
It's not merely the lips, it's the caracture like appearance which is more than the lips. And even using your own example, some color him blue, so it's not just the lips. The point I'm trying to make here is that all this can fly over a reasonable person's head if they aren't familiar with Sambo. I've seen some depictions of black face, including Soul Man which might be one of the most racist movies ever, but Sambo was foreign to me into my 20's.
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Re: How on target or off base is this video discussing Racism in Dragon Ball?

Post by MyVisionity » Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:55 pm

ABED wrote:
MyVisionity wrote:The lips are all you need to play into the caricature.
Is that really ALL you need?
Yes, it really is. The Sambo imagery already exists. The lips evoke the caricature, regardless of who may or may not pick up on it. That's how symbols work. It doesn't matter who is aware of it.
And when was his name Black Sambo? I don't recall that.
Apparently, he is called Black sanbou, or "staff officer" . Which is a play on "sambo".
Lastly, I do think intent matters. Racism isn't a matter of just ignorance, which is why I and from what I can gather, most people here, don't condemn Toriyama as a racist jackass. Racially insensitive? Sure, but not racist.
This isn't about Toriyama, it's about his work. In this case, Officer Black. Racism, like all forms of oppression, does not depend on one individual's intentions. The work speaks for itself.
Last edited by MyVisionity on Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: How on target or off base is this video discussing Racism in Dragon Ball?

Post by The Tori-bot » Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:59 pm

Just in case there's any confusion, the full name of "Black Sanbō" originates in the anime. There's a disturbing trend of the TV writers taking concepts or characters that are kinda on-the-fence in terms of potential offensiveness and just... well... making them flat-out offensive (see also: the infamous General Blue/Obotchaman scene).
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Re: How on target or off base is this video discussing Racism in Dragon Ball?

Post by KBABZ » Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:02 am

The Tori-bot wrote:Just in case there's any confusion, the full name of "Black Sanbō" originates in the anime. There's a disturbing trend of the TV writers taking concepts or characters that are kinda on-the-fence in terms of potential offensiveness and just... well... making them flat-out offensive (see also: the infamous General Blue/Obotchaman scene).
Hm, what was his name in the manga?

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Re: How on target or off base is this video discussing Racism in Dragon Ball?

Post by The Tori-bot » Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:08 am

KBABZ wrote:
The Tori-bot wrote:Just in case there's any confusion, the full name of "Black Sanbō" originates in the anime. There's a disturbing trend of the TV writers taking concepts or characters that are kinda on-the-fence in terms of potential offensiveness and just... well... making them flat-out offensive (see also: the infamous General Blue/Obotchaman scene).
Hm, what was his name in the manga?
IIRC Toriyama calls him "Black Hosa", so "Assistant Black" or "Adjutant Black" (which is what Viz went with).
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Re: How on target or off base is this video discussing Racism in Dragon Ball?

Post by VegettoEX » Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:44 am

Correct. Sorry for not making it super-clear.

In the original manga, Toriyama's rank for Black is "Assistant/Adjutant" (補佐 Hosa). This is changed in the anime to "Staff Officer" (参謀 Sanbō). This is changed back again in the 10th anniversary movie (along with a slight character design adjustment, which I don't have in front of me at the moment) to the original "Assistant/Adjutant" (補佐 Hosa).

Yes, they changed it in the anime to call the character "Black Sanbo". This is a thing that happened.
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Re: How on target or off base is this video discussing Racism in Dragon Ball?

Post by Shaddy » Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:23 pm

He looks like this in the movie.

Image

So, no big lips (And different skin tone? Maybe that's just the lighting), but still definitely a black man (also trademark GIANT FUCKING CHINS of this era).

Of course, any thought that this might have a sign been Toei/Toriyama were trying to get away from that sort of design disappears when you see their redesign for Metallic.

Image

Not that you'd really need that when Popo is still a character anyway, but whatever.
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Re: How on target or off base is this video discussing Racism in Dragon Ball?

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:04 pm

The dude certainly has presented some his points in a formal fashion, but that's where my praise for him pretty much ends. He really seems to have not done enough research on the clear intentions from the author of Dragon Ball itself to realise that the clear implications for what Super Saiyan, Freeza and the Saiyan race in general represent are rooted in Wuxia tropes, Chinese folklore and Eastern traditions and socitiel expressions.

Dragon Ball can certainly be held accountable for it's unfortunate implications regarding race, sexim and homosexuality, but not in fashion that was presented like in that video. It just comes across as trying to make a false projection of Western racial propaganda statements without taking into consideration that a lot of the context in Dragon Ball is not meant to be viewed through a Western lens.

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Re: How on target or off base is this video discussing Racism in Dragon Ball?

Post by Tavarano » Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:28 am

Image
You can't seriously say that DB promotes aryanism when nazis look like this and are defeated by Yamcha :lol:
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Re: How on target or off base is this video discussing Racism in Dragon Ball?

Post by Kinokima » Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:02 pm

The YT video was absolutely reaching and I hate when people look at non-Western media through a Western lens completely ignoring the cultural aspect where the media comes from. That’s actually pretty racist in itself in my opinion. Well maybe racist is the wrong words maybe ethnocentric & ignorant is better.

However that doesn’t excuse or deny that there were definitely racially insensitive/racist, sexist and homophobic depictions in DB & DBZ. And note this type of thing is still an issue in Japanese media. I mean just look up Sister Krone from the Promised Neverland. So it’s not just something we can say well that was the past because these stereotypical depictions are still happening NOW.

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Re: How on target or off base is this video discussing Racism in Dragon Ball?

Post by JohnnyCashKami » Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:25 pm

Shaddy wrote:but still definitely a black man
Not necessarily, if we didn't know the backstory of this character then it could be assumed he's Arab/Asian rather than African. You know, there are a lot of dark-skinned/black color Indians but would you call them "black" or Indian? Who knows.

In US there was an Indian who faked his way being black in a university because they didn't accept him otherwise. It happened quite a while ago but always a good article to bring up when it's a sensitive topic about skin color.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iwMzZtU5H7I

Dragon Ball: The Path to Power is a masterpiece of a Dragon Ball film but I've never liked Star Officer Black's redrawn character, looks nothing like the original Star Officer Black.

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