What happened to Oob?

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Re: What happened to Oob?

Post by ABED » Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:08 am

Muffin Man wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:39 am
You say that as though other stories haven't successfully replaced the hero with a successor.

The reason it wouldn't work for DB is simply because Goku himself is too popular, not because a story focusing on characters other than Goku wouldn't work. Yeah, it would have a different emotional core, and thus be a different show, that's the whole point.

But I agree that Uub was never intended to replace Goku in real life, only in-universe, hence why AT will never write a story set after EoZ.
They haven't been successfully replaced and been the better for it. You can temporarily get away with it like when Dick Grayson took the mantle from Bruce, but it doesn't work long term. You say it's a function of popularity, but the reason Goku is popular is because the audience is emotionally connected to him. DB doesn't work as well without him. DB is a reflection of its main character. Gohan would be too earnest for DB. It would be a different show and that would be a bad idea.
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Re: What happened to Oob?

Post by Muffin Man » Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:59 am

ABED wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:08 am
Muffin Man wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:39 am
You say that as though other stories haven't successfully replaced the hero with a successor.

The reason it wouldn't work for DB is simply because Goku himself is too popular, not because a story focusing on characters other than Goku wouldn't work. Yeah, it would have a different emotional core, and thus be a different show, that's the whole point.

But I agree that Uub was never intended to replace Goku in real life, only in-universe, hence why AT will never write a story set after EoZ.
They haven't been successfully replaced and been the better for it. You can temporarily get away with it like when Dick Grayson took the mantle from Bruce, but it doesn't work long term. You say it's a function of popularity, but the reason Goku is popular is because the audience is emotionally connected to him. DB doesn't work as well without him. DB is a reflection of its main character. Gohan would be too earnest for DB. It would be a different show and that would be a bad idea.
Of course it would be a differwnt show. The entire premise is that it would be a new show or manga starring Uub.

And I can think of plenty of successful stories about a new protagonist replacing a predecessor, while the old protagonist becomes a mentor. Batman Beyond, the Creed movies, Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, Legend of Korra.

The premise can work as long as it's well written. If they write Uub as an interesting character and give him fun adventures, the show would be good. If they write him as a bland character and give him boring, derivative adventures, it would be bad. It would come down to the writing.

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Re: What happened to Oob?

Post by Muffin Man » Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:59 am

ABED wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:08 am
Muffin Man wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:39 am
You say that as though other stories haven't successfully replaced the hero with a successor.

The reason it wouldn't work for DB is simply because Goku himself is too popular, not because a story focusing on characters other than Goku wouldn't work. Yeah, it would have a different emotional core, and thus be a different show, that's the whole point.

But I agree that Uub was never intended to replace Goku in real life, only in-universe, hence why AT will never write a story set after EoZ.
They haven't been successfully replaced and been the better for it. You can temporarily get away with it like when Dick Grayson took the mantle from Bruce, but it doesn't work long term. You say it's a function of popularity, but the reason Goku is popular is because the audience is emotionally connected to him. DB doesn't work as well without him. DB is a reflection of its main character. Gohan would be too earnest for DB. It would be a different show and that would be a bad idea.
Of course it would be a differwnt show. The entire premise is that it would be a new show or manga starring Uub.

And I can think of plenty of successful stories about a new protagonist replacing a predecessor, while the old protagonist becomes a mentor. Batman Beyond, the Creed movies, Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, Legend of Korra.

The premise can work as long as it's well written. If they write Uub as an interesting character and give him fun adventures, the show would be good. If they write him as a bland character and give him boring, derivative adventures, it would be bad. It would come down to the writing.

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Re: What happened to Oob?

Post by ABED » Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:13 am

Muffin Man wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:59 am
ABED wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:08 am
Muffin Man wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:39 am
You say that as though other stories haven't successfully replaced the hero with a successor.

The reason it wouldn't work for DB is simply because Goku himself is too popular, not because a story focusing on characters other than Goku wouldn't work. Yeah, it would have a different emotional core, and thus be a different show, that's the whole point.

But I agree that Uub was never intended to replace Goku in real life, only in-universe, hence why AT will never write a story set after EoZ.
They haven't been successfully replaced and been the better for it. You can temporarily get away with it like when Dick Grayson took the mantle from Bruce, but it doesn't work long term. You say it's a function of popularity, but the reason Goku is popular is because the audience is emotionally connected to him. DB doesn't work as well without him. DB is a reflection of its main character. Gohan would be too earnest for DB. It would be a different show and that would be a bad idea.
Of course it would be a differwnt show. The entire premise is that it would be a new show or manga starring Uub.

And I can think of plenty of successful stories about a new protagonist replacing a predecessor, while the old protagonist becomes a mentor. Batman Beyond, the Creed movies, Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, Legend of Korra.

The premise can work as long as it's well written. If they write Uub as an interesting character and give him fun adventures, the show would be good. If they write him as a bland character and give him boring, derivative adventures, it would be bad. It would come down to the writing.
Then do a spin off. That is not the same thing as Uub taking over DB as the protagonist.

In Batman Beyond, Bruce is by far the most interesting character. Terry doesn't even come close. Rocky is once again the most interesting character in both Creed films. In the first one, it's not even clear what Adonis is even fighting for. I like both films a lot, but wherever the Creed films go, especially once Rocky is gone, they won't be able to reach the emotional highs of when the series was centered on Rocky Balboa. The original Star Wars trilogy is way better than either the prequels or the sequel trilogy. The biggest reactions have always been to the original cast.

When I say they haven't been successfully replaced, I mean the stories haven't been AS GOOD AS or well received their predecessors.

Legend of Korra is a spin off, so you are flat out wrong on that count. Lord of the Ring isn't a sequel series. It takes place in the same world and has VERY few of the same characters. It's closer to a spin off. Spin offs are a whole different thing. They take a character(s) introduced in one story and make them the center of their own stories. That can work great. Sometimes as well (like Frasier and Angel) if not better than the original series, but that's not what we're talking about.
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Re: What happened to Oob?

Post by Gokitalo » Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:13 am

Ah, but you're forgetting a fairly prominent example, at least in the world of the comics, which is Wally West. Although Barry Allen's back now, Wally successfully replaced Barry as the Flash for around 22 years. Many fans do consider Wally the more interesting of the two, and his stories as the Flash (particularly those written Mark Waid and Geoff Johns) are often cited as among the best in Flash history. Wally replacing Barry was so successful, in fact, that three years after Barry returned in 2008, his personality was altered somewhat in DC's "new 52" reboot... to be more like Wally's.

So there you have it: sometimes replacements work! Moving back to Dragon Ball...
JohnnyCashKami wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:29 pm
We saw him in Z, GT and Kai but that was it.. right? It would have been great to have him on Dragon Ball Super or Super Dragon Ball Heroes as Oob is a character with a lot of potential.
Well, a lot of that has to do with the decision to set Battle of Gods before Oob's first appearance at the end of Z. Toriyama mentioned why he chose that particular time frame in the Battle of Gods: Official Movie Guide (full interview is here on the site):
Why did you set the story’s time frame after the defeat of Majin Boo?
It’s when all the members [of the cast] were at their strongest, so I thought it was just right. If it were at the time of the final chapter, Goku would be heading off somewhere with Oob, after all.
And that makes a lot of sense. Plus while a lot of us would have loved to see Goku's new adventures with Oob, I think there was also a big nostalgic desire among the fandom to see the whole gang again as we knew them, which is easier to do when Goku's still hanging out with them fairly regularly. I don't fault Toriyama's decision!

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Re: What happened to Oob?

Post by kemuri07 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:19 am

I honestly wouldn't mind a series that takes place during the years Goku trained Oob. It would avoid having the series be another "EVERYTHING IS AT STAKE" storyline that focuses more on the characters. You can even have *gasp* nuance by showing Goku actively struggling with being forced to mature as a person since he actually has to take care of another person, something he arguably never really did with Gohan. And there's a lot you can do with Uub being a re-incarnated Buu and having to deal with the fact that in another life, he was responsible for basically global genocide.

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Re: What happened to Oob?

Post by ABED » Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:01 am

There's something of an example, but American superhero comics aren't the best example of continuity. They constantly change characters and drop things out of continuity often to bring them back. DB isn't structured the same at all. It's all the same continuity. That matters in long form storytelling. Superhero comics do have some semblence of continuity but they are also structured to bring in new readers because as Stan Lee said "every comic is someone's first comic." Most people like Wally because that's who they know. DB has a beginning and a middle, and for years an ending. You can easily find that beginning. You aren't required to read the first Flash comics to understand newer ones. Completely different context. Goku IS Dragon Ball. Why would you effectively turn Dragon Ball into a superhero comic?
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Re: What happened to Oob?

Post by funrush » Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:31 pm

Nothing happened to Oob. During Super, he's 5 years old. He can't meet Goku & the Z-Fighters because that pretty directly contradicts EoZ, so until Toriyama decides to go there, Oob's out of the picture.

Wouldn't surprise me if the next time period takes place immediately after EoZ though, and is the story of Goku training Oob.

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Re: What happened to Oob?

Post by Gokitalo » Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:24 pm

kemuri07 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:19 am
I honestly wouldn't mind a series that takes place during the years Goku trained Oob. It would avoid having the series be another "EVERYTHING IS AT STAKE" storyline that focuses more on the characters. You can even have *gasp* nuance by showing Goku actively struggling with being forced to mature as a person since he actually has to take care of another person, something he arguably never really did with Gohan. And there's a lot you can do with Uub being a re-incarnated Buu and having to deal with the fact that in another life, he was responsible for basically global genocide.
I like that angle of Goku having to learn (or some would argue relearn) a little maturity to teach Oob. Although Goku did get to be a father figure to Gohan a little bit: you've got the five years between Dragon Ball and Z, the three-year gap before the Artificial Humans appeared, and the one "year" in the Room of Spirit and Time. Though there's no denying that when it came to raising Gohan AND Goten, Chi-Chi did most of the heavy lifting!
ABED wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:01 am
There's something of an example, but American superhero comics aren't the best example of continuity. They constantly change characters and drop things out of continuity often to bring them back. DB isn't structured the same at all. It's all the same continuity. That matters in long form storytelling. Superhero comics do have some semblence of continuity but they are also structured to bring in new readers because as Stan Lee said "every comic is someone's first comic." Most people like Wally because that's who they know. DB has a beginning and a middle, and for years an ending. You can easily find that beginning. You aren't required to read the first Flash comics to understand newer ones. Completely different context. Goku IS Dragon Ball. Why would you effectively turn Dragon Ball into a superhero comic?
Well, I use the example not to suggest that Dragon Ball should be more like a superhero comic where continuity is concerned (although it does share some of the genre's other trappings), but more just to show that some replacements in fiction have been successful.

I disagree a little bit regarding your point, though, because while reboots are common in comics (you're 100% right about that), Wally West's tenure as the Flash was building off Barry Allen's prior Flash history: it was one of the few things left largely unchanged after DC's major reboot in 1985. You didn't need to know every bit of Flash minutiae to understand Wally, true, but you did need to know that before Wally, there was Barry, and that Barry was important to Wally. Legacy-- which is a form of continuity-- was one of the driving themes behind Wally's Flash days.

Either way, I do understand your other, larger point, which is that, well... replacements ARE hard. I think that if they ever do decide to show Goku training Oob, the show (and/or manga) would benefit from starting off as a little more Goku-centric, just to give Oob time to develop as a character and earn fan investment. Once Oob's personality starts taking form, the series could then gradually transition from "Goku training Oob" to "Oob being trained by Goku"... or at least "Goku and Oob training together." Kind of the way Goku and Gohan ended up virtually being co-stars in the Saiyan Arc (although in that case, they were doing different things).

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Re: What happened to Oob?

Post by ABED » Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:37 pm

But you only needed to know that small bit of history insofar as it informs Wally's motivations. It's like Uncle Ben is to Spidey. You don't have to have read Amazing Fantasy to know that backstory and how that informs who Peter is as Spider-Man. Even then, you don't really need to know that much about Wally. Case in point, Justice League the animated series used Wally, not Barry. I don't think Barry's ever mentioned.

The reason I dislike Uub so vehemently is because he's not interesting as a character. He's useful as a thematic device at the end, but he's too damn different from the tone of DB which is often tongue in cheek for him to be a suitable lead in this story. Do a spinoff, that's where he belongs if you want him as the main character.
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Re: What happened to Oob?

Post by Gokitalo » Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:29 pm

Hmm... I'm not so sure. Oob's backstory does resemble that of another character we've seen before in the series, which is Nam's: one was trying to help his village overcome a drought, while the other wanted to end his village's salvation. Of course, Nam never became a lead or was teased as one, but he does provide precedent for a character with a background like Oob's.

As for what Oob would do for the show tonally... well, Dragon Ball has changed tones before: the Z Era was much more serious from the get-go. There were definitely flashes of comedy, like North Kaio, the Ginyu Force and the introduction of the-- ahem-- TRUE champion of Earth (you know the one), but before the Buu Saga, Z was far less comedic than the Dragon Ball days.

The other thing is, discounting GT, Oob appeared in... honestly, I wouldn't even say a handful of episodes in the saga. We don't know much about him other than that he's noble, a bit introverted, and gets really angry when you insult his loved ones. A good starting point, I'd say-- just replace "insult" with "hurt" and you get Gohan-- but even so, I'd be hesitant to judge Oob harshly when we don't have much to go on. He definitely could've evolved into a strong, interesting character, as we've seen happen before with Gohan, who definitely didn't start out as the strong, quiet warrior we came to know him as.

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Re: What happened to Oob?

Post by ABED » Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:03 pm

Not sure what you're pointing out with Nam. He was never the lead and he's a periphery character in a handful of episodes at most. The tone of the story overall is very silly. There are certainly plenty of times it gets earnest, but it's still a fun quirky series. Uub is way too earnest to be the lead.

You keep pointing to Gohan but I've never wanted Gohan to be the lead either. If he's so similar to Gohan, why do we need Uub? The only reason Uub is there is to provide thematic closure for Goku and his story. He's now become a teacher, but it's another hill to climb as Uub is the reincarnation of the strongest being he ever faced.
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Re: What happened to Oob?

Post by Gokitalo » Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:46 am

We need Oob because Gohan chose to be a scholar. And, as the Cell Saga pointed out, fighting-- or more specifically, hurting others-- isn't something Gohan's all that comfortable with.

I mention Nam because he's an example of someone with a similar backstory to Oob's whose small arc was something Dragon Ball handled fairly seriously, for the most part (goofiness in his fights against Ranfan and Goku aside). Which I think was an early sign of how Dragon Ball had the potential to deal with more serious characters and storylines. That tonal flexibility is essentially what made Z possible: even though Goku remained the star, he became a less comical character, and dealt with much more dramatic story elements.

Considering how different Dragon Ball and Z were (for most of Z's first three sagas, anyway), I think the saga could easily adjust again if Oob became its star in later installments. And if Goku's still around, I don't think the adjustment would even need to be that drastic.

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Re: What happened to Oob?

Post by ABED » Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:23 am

DB has had characters and even prolonged periods of seriousness, but overall it's a lighthearted story. Just like you can have a crappy day or week or even month but still be a happy person.

DB and DBZ are all DB! This point can't be clear enough. They aren't different. They appear different when you drop context, but they are still very much the same story even if tone and structure changes all the time, but the fundamental feel of the series is always there, with the exception being the very first arc being an overt parody. Changing to something so incredibly different this late in is a mistake and one I nor do I think many people care to see. DB is more than a world. It's a story, a story about Son Goku. What good comes from continuing DB under the same title but with a different main character and a very different feel? Why can't we let things end gracefully or at all?
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Re: What happened to Oob?

Post by Gokitalo » Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:19 am

Well, despite Dragon Ball and Z being the same saga, I think the change in tone (for a while, anyway) is of pretty significant note. For example, the Freeza Saga (save the Ginyu Force) has an enormous tonal difference from most of Goku's childhood adventures.

Although frankly, the tone wouldn't necessarily have to change much, even with Oob as the star. Goku's mere presence would bring a certain levity to Oob's story, and having a more serious/earnest character playing off a more comical (or at least "light") one has been a staple of humor for some time. Gotenks' scenes with Piccolo come to mind: Piccolo's one of the most serious characters in Dragon Ball, yet his reactions to Gotenks' shenanigans were as funny as the shenanigans themselves. Heck, look at Goku and Oob themselves: how'd Goku get Oob to cut loose? By awkwardly insulting Oob and his family in a very funny way (namely because it was so awkward-- trash-talking isn't Goku's strong suit...).

It'd be a matter of contrasts, really, and in fiction, placing two characters with contrasting personalities together (lighthearted and grim, funny and serious, etc.) often works pretty well. Contrast is often a form of conflict, after all, and they do say conflict's at the heart of story. You could also create that contrast by placing Oob in comical situations absent from Goku, as the situations themselves would conflict with Oob's serious nature.

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Re: What happened to Oob?

Post by ABED » Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:32 am

But it didn't even happen in DBZ. The Saiyan arc isn't the beginning of a more serious tone. That began with Kuririn's first death.

Why Uub of ALL characters to take over? Why do you care so much about him that you want him to take over a long running story that at its core is about someone else? Why him whose sole purpose is to give Goku an obstacle to overcome and bring thematic closure? Why him who isn't a character as much a plot device? Why him who was only brought in at the tail end of a 500+ chapter story? Why HIM who isn't a character as much a plot device?

Why do you want it to be under the title Dragon Ball? Why not a spin-off manga? In your hypothetical example, why is Uub the main character in Goku's story instead of Goku?
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Re: What happened to Oob?

Post by Gokitalo » Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:20 pm

I don't really harbor any particular favoritism when it comes to Oob. I just think he has potential.

At any rate, any continuation would likely have Goku in a co-leading role or as the most prominent supporting character: either way, he'd continue to be a big player. Aside from showing Oob learning to become a fighter, it would also show Goku learning to be a proper, long-term mentor, as kemuri07 suggested. It'd be a new role and a new phase for him, and I think a fairly interesting one to explore.

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Re: What happened to Oob?

Post by Muffin Man » Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:33 am

ABED wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:13 am
Muffin Man wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:59 am
ABED wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:08 am
They haven't been successfully replaced and been the better for it. You can temporarily get away with it like when Dick Grayson took the mantle from Bruce, but it doesn't work long term. You say it's a function of popularity, but the reason Goku is popular is because the audience is emotionally connected to him. DB doesn't work as well without him. DB is a reflection of its main character. Gohan would be too earnest for DB. It would be a different show and that would be a bad idea.
Of course it would be a differwnt show. The entire premise is that it would be a new show or manga starring Uub.

And I can think of plenty of successful stories about a new protagonist replacing a predecessor, while the old protagonist becomes a mentor. Batman Beyond, the Creed movies, Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, Legend of Korra.

The premise can work as long as it's well written. If they write Uub as an interesting character and give him fun adventures, the show would be good. If they write him as a bland character and give him boring, derivative adventures, it would be bad. It would come down to the writing.
Then do a spin off. That is not the same thing as Uub taking over DB as the protagonist.

In Batman Beyond, Bruce is by far the most interesting character. Terry doesn't even come close. Rocky is once again the most interesting character in both Creed films. In the first one, it's not even clear what Adonis is even fighting for. I like both films a lot, but wherever the Creed films go, especially once Rocky is gone, they won't be able to reach the emotional highs of when the series was centered on Rocky Balboa. The original Star Wars trilogy is way better than either the prequels or the sequel trilogy. The biggest reactions have always been to the original cast.

When I say they haven't been successfully replaced, I mean the stories haven't been AS GOOD AS or well received their predecessors.

Legend of Korra is a spin off, so you are flat out wrong on that count. Lord of the Ring isn't a sequel series. It takes place in the same world and has VERY few of the same characters. It's closer to a spin off. Spin offs are a whole different thing. They take a character(s) introduced in one story and make them the center of their own stories. That can work great. Sometimes as well (like Frasier and Angel) if not better than the original series, but that's not what we're talking about.
If you look back at my very first post in the topic, you'll see that I was replying to an idea for a spinoff about Uub.

Muffin Man wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:02 am
Chuquita wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:28 am
I feel like you could tell a nice by-the-book shonen manga spin-off series with Uub. Kind boy with large poor family, but he's got these powers that he doesn't understand and turns out they're because he's a reincarnated majin and you'd have him defending his home and family against people coming after him or after who he used to be. It'd be serious drama stuff. He just wants his family to be safe and earn enough money for them to live well and be healthy. Very earnest and emotional.


The thing is it's not a very Toriyama setup.

I think it would work as a spin-off manga title though with someone else at the helm who enjoys the more typical shonen tropes.
That would be the logical direction to take it. The real problem is that Goku is just way too popular to not have the spotlight. There will never be a Dragon Ball series without Goku front and center. So the best we can hope for is for them to leave Uub's future up to our imaginations, rather than ruining it like GT did.
So yeah, a spinoff is what I was talking about in the first place. :roll:

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Re: What happened to Oob?

Post by ABED » Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:46 pm

This is the second time in recent history someone has resurrected a several months old dead thread just to respond to me - why?
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Re: What happened to Oob?

Post by Muffin Man » Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:23 am

Well I just don't post here very often, and I saw this in my notifications when I logged in yesterday.

Anyway it's not like this topic stopped being relevant in the past couple months.

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