"Evil Goku" In the Fandom

[jamiljamtheman]

I do know that the concept of Evil Goku was always a popular fan one before Goku Black was the new official "Evil Goku"--i also am a sucker for "dark" versions of existing characters/protagonists. I also know that Turles was one of the (if not THE) earliest explorations of an "Evil Goku" concept officially.

I'm making this thread mostly to learn. I'm aware that a YouTube fan (Sprite) animation from some years ago was popular, but I'm interested in as many notable cases of popular "Evil Goku" characters and concepts that have existed in the dragon Ball fandom. Please do share any knowledge you have or any of your personal favorite depictions!

[MasenkoHA]

I have no idea if evil Goku is a popular concept in the fandom but the evil twin or dark mirror version of the hero always seemed like a popular trope and usually successful (I mean think of how many works of fiction especially in kids media where the evil twin isn’t usually the most popular villain).

I’m kind of surprised Tulece isn’t MORE popular with the American fandom as he never seemed to treated as that big of a deal compared to Cooler or Broly. Maybe it’s because he was in only one film and he never went Super Saiyan. Had he been given his own arc or a few films he might have been more popular. Although Goku Black kind of renders his character obsolete.

[JulieYBM]

I do recall seeing a lot of 'Evil Gokuu' on people's wish-lists for storylines. Frankly, I'm not interested in those storylines and I think Toriyama was wise to create an 'Evil Gokuu' who was not Gokuu but an impostor. Similarly, I think that Tullece is also an interesting take on the concept with both him and Black being truly an 'opposite' of Gokuu by fighting with cunning and underhandedness.

It helps that the relationship between Black and Zamasu really helped me to explore my queerness. :p

[Toxin45]

I do recall seeing a lot of 'Evil Gokuu' on people's wish-lists for storylines. Frankly, I'm not interested in those storylines and I think Toriyama was wise to create an 'Evil Gokuu' who was not Gokuu but an impostor. Similarly, I think that Tullece is also an interesting take on the concept with both him and Black being truly an 'opposite' of Gokuu by fighting with cunning and underhandedness.

It helps that the relationship between Black and Zamasu really helped me to explore my queerness. :p

Or if your into self chest

[The Monkey King]

I've heard some make the case that Perfect Cell is an Evil Goku, and I can see why

• He straight up lets people go so they can get stronger and fight him again

• Goes as far as to create a tournament to fight said strong people

• Would let his opponents power up to their best for a challenge

• Uses Goku's signature move the Kamehameha most out of all the Cell forms

• Hell quite a lot of video games give him the goddamn Spirit Bomb

[SupremeKai25]

Let it be clear that now that we know who is in reality Goku Black, he is an "Evil Goku" only in the most broad meaning of the term. Because Goku Black is neither completely morally evil like a monster such as Boo would be (he is more of a misguiged God who wanted to do good), nor is he Goku, as the mind and heart inside that body belong to the Supreme Kai Zamasu.

[Grimlock]

I've heard some make the case that Perfect Cell is an Evil Goku, and I can see why

• He straight up lets people go so they can get stronger and fight him again

• Goes as far as to create a tournament to fight said strong people

• Would let his opponents power up to their best for a challenge

• Uses Goku's signature move the Kamehameha most out of all the Cell forms

• Hell quite a lot of video games give him the goddamn Spirit Bomb

Well, Cell "is a Saiyan", one could say most of those fit more for Saiyan's characteristics rather than just Goku's.

[JohnnyCashKami]

Goku Black feels overshadowed and a clone of Tullece, but if Tullece didn't exist then I'd say Goku Black would have been an awesome "Evil Goku" character.

[PFM18]

Goku Black feels overshadowed and a clone of Tullece, but if Tullece didn't exist then I'd say Goku Black would have been an awesome "Evil Goku" character.

Tullece and Goku Black couldn't possibly be any different outside of their appearance. How can a lame movie villain overshadow a main series villain?

[SupremeKai25]

Goku Black feels overshadowed and a clone of Tullece, but if Tullece didn't exist then I'd say Goku Black would have been an awesome "Evil Goku" character.

How is Goku Black the overshadowed one when he is much more popular and beloved?

Goku Black is far from being a clone of a Turles. Firstly, Goku Black is a divine Supreme Kai, while Turles is just a Saiyan commoner, one of the lowest mortals.

[sunsetshimmer]

"Evil Goku" is one of the worst ideas ever created, both by fans and in official media
We had 3 versions of "Evil Goku" (Turles, Ginyu and Black Goku) in series and all of them were awful.

Maybe one day there will be some good execution of this idea but i hope they will abandon this concept forever as even with proper execution, idea of "Evil Goku" is still lazy and boring. I'd rather see another 10 versions of "Evil Vegeta" than one more version of "Evil Goku"...

[Mnich]

Goku Black feels overshadowed and a clone of Tullece, but if Tullece didn't exist then I'd say Goku Black would have been an awesome "Evil Goku" character.

How is Goku Black the overshadowed one when he is much more popular and beloved?

Goku Black is far from being a clone of a Turles. Firstly, Goku Black is a divine Supreme Kai, while Turles is just a Saiyan commoner, one of the lowest mortals.

Actually, Goku Black was never a Kaioshin, only a mere Kai. He was trained by Gowasu to become one but we all know what happened before he could end his training. You really shouldn't call him a Supreme Kai.

[SupremeKai25]

Goku Black feels overshadowed and a clone of Tullece, but if Tullece didn't exist then I'd say Goku Black would have been an awesome "Evil Goku" character.

How is Goku Black the overshadowed one when he is much more popular and beloved?

Goku Black is far from being a clone of a Turles. Firstly, Goku Black is a divine Supreme Kai, while Turles is just a Saiyan commoner, one of the lowest mortals.

Actually, Goku Black was never a Kaioshin, only a mere Kai. He was trained by Gowasu to become one but we all know what happened before he could end his training. You really shouldn't call him a Supreme Kai.

Anime and manga have different rules, you would be right if we were talking about the manga, where both Black and Future Zamasu (actually I can't remember if that applies to Future Zamasu as well) never became official Supreme Kais (as a result, Fused Zamasu had a time limit). In the anime, Black was a Supreme Kai, since it is estabilished that only them can use the Time Rings.

I will call him a Supreme Kai, just as Shin is considered a Supreme Kai despite being incompetent and useless.

[Mnich]

How is Goku Black the overshadowed one when he is much more popular and beloved?

Goku Black is far from being a clone of a Turles. Firstly, Goku Black is a divine Supreme Kai, while Turles is just a Saiyan commoner, one of the lowest mortals.

Actually, Goku Black was never a Kaioshin, only a mere Kai. He was trained by Gowasu to become one but we all know what happened before he could end his training. You really shouldn't call him a Supreme Kai.

Anime and manga have different rules, you would be right if we were talking about the manga, where both Black and Future Zamasu (actually I can't remember if that applies to Future Zamasu as well) never became official Supreme Kais (as a result, Fused Zamasu had a time limit). In the anime, Black was a Supreme Kai, since it is estabilished that only them can use the Time Rings.

I will call him a Supreme Kai, just as Shin is considered a Supreme Kai despite being incompetent and useless.

He killed Gowasu and stole a Time Ring and Potara. It's not like only Kaioshins CAN use a Time Ring. Kaioshins are the only ones that are ALLOWED to use such stuff. It was Black who said that in the anime. He proclaimed himself as Kaioshin but was never appointed by his master. Should we call Cell or Luud a God of Destruction?

Shin is not "considered" a Kaioshin, he IS a Kaioshin. It really doesn't matter that he sucks at his job. Beerus is also a bad God of Destruction - he destroys stuff because he has such a whim or just sleeps all the time. They both were appointed (or Shin was born as Kaioshin) and Goku Black declared himself as one. So again - you shouldn't call him a Supreme Kai.

[SupremeKai25]

Actually, Goku Black was never a Kaioshin, only a mere Kai. He was trained by Gowasu to become one but we all know what happened before he could end his training. You really shouldn't call him a Supreme Kai.

Anime and manga have different rules, you would be right if we were talking about the manga, where both Black and Future Zamasu (actually I can't remember if that applies to Future Zamasu as well) never became official Supreme Kais (as a result, Fused Zamasu had a time limit). In the anime, Black was a Supreme Kai, since it is estabilished that only them can use the Time Rings.

I will call him a Supreme Kai, just as Shin is considered a Supreme Kai despite being incompetent and useless.

He killed Gowasu and stole a Time Ring and Potara. It's not like only Kaioshins CAN use a Time Ring. Kaioshins are the only ones that are ALLOWED to use such stuff. It was Black who said that in the anime. He proclaimed himself as Kaioshin but was never appointed by his master. Should we call Cell or Luud a God of Destruction?

Shin is not "considered" a Kaioshin, he IS a Kaioshin. It really doesn't matter that he sucks at his job. Beerus is also a bad God of Destruction - he destroys stuff because he has such a whim or just sleeps all the time. They both were appointed (or Shin was born as Kaioshin) and Goku Black declared himself as one. So again - you shouldn't call him a Supreme Kai.

Except that in the anime wearing a Supreme Kai's potara earring already proves that you are a full rank Supreme Kai. That's how Gowasu temporarily promoted Present Zamasu to a Supreme Kai to visit the Babarians, by giving him one of his green earrings. And Gowasu literally states that the Time Rings can transport only those with a full rank of Supreme Kais and have the correct Potara earring to prove it. If both of these requirements are not met, you cannot use a Time Ring. But since Zamasu became a Supreme Kai after murdering his master, and had the correct Potara earring to prove it, he was able to use the Time Ring. This is Toei itself aknowledging that Zamasu was a full rank Supreme Kai, not just Goku Black with an in-universe statement.

If you think about it, what you said doesn't make. If everyone can use a Time Ring but the Supreme Kais are the only allowed to do so, then why did Gowasu need to promote Zamasu and give him his earring to use the Time Ring? He was under his supervision, so it's not like Zamasu would suddenly go rogue after using the Time Ring.

The fact that both Black and Future Zamasu were full rank Supreme Kais is further proved by the fact that Fused Zamasu didn't have a time limit and never defused despite using a massive amount of energy.

Also, and this is a minor but significant detail, when Black tells his backstory, he killed Gowasu and put on his green earring, and the earring flashed with light for a split second, which could be the physical representation of Zamasu's ascension to the rank of Supreme Kai.

We should end this discussion here, since it's a derailment over something meaningless, and it doesn't disprove my point anyway that Black is a superior God while Turles is a lowly mortal. And Zamasu was not just a simple God, he was a fighting prodigy and a genius, whose strength was unprecedented even amongst most Supreme Kais, despite just being an apprentice.

[Tai Lung]

I do know that the concept of Evil Goku was always a popular fan one before Goku Black was the new official "Evil Goku"--i also am a sucker for "dark" versions of existing characters/protagonists. I also know that Turles was one of the (if not THE) earliest explorations of an "Evil Goku" concept officially.

I'm making this thread mostly to learn. I'm aware that a YouTube fan (Sprite) animation from some years ago was popular, but I'm interested in as many notable cases of popular "Evil Goku" characters and concepts that have existed in the dragon Ball fandom. Please do share any knowledge you have or any of your personal favorite depictions!

really to say that black was an evil goku is a very wrong way to see it
Black was to establish a mystery
of who it is?, where he came from?, because he looks like goku?, What do he want ? etc. the appearance of goku was only the disguise that zamasu used a corrupted god in search of destroying mortals

Turles himself, if he was an evil goku

many see caulifla as a version of goku as kale de broly but is certainly not evil

PD: by the way in DB Af there is a very funny mistake zaiko never passed himself off as goku or call himself so, he said he was the son of goku something significantly different I do not know if it will be for bad translations but at least many made him known at character of this shape.

there is also one in multiverse that is a "what if" I guess it is a reconstruction of turles not very well made

From there I do not know any more but I think there is one in heroes?

[ABED]

"Evil Goku" is one of the worst ideas ever created, both by fans and in official media
We had 3 versions of "Evil Goku" (Turles, Ginyu and Black Goku) in series and all of them were awful.

Maybe one day there will be some good execution of this idea but i hope they will abandon this concept forever as even with proper execution, idea of "Evil Goku" is still lazy and boring. I'd rather see another 10 versions of "Evil Vegeta" than one more version of "Evil Goku"...

How was Ginyu a version of evil Goku? He took over his body, that's it. And Ginyu's one of the most memorable villains in DB.

What was awful about Tulles?

[Tai Lung]

"Evil Goku" is one of the worst ideas ever created, both by fans and in official media
We had 3 versions of "Evil Goku" (Turles, Ginyu and Black Goku) in series and all of them were awful.

Maybe one day there will be some good execution of this idea but i hope they will abandon this concept forever as even with proper execution, idea of "Evil Goku" is still lazy and boring. I'd rather see another 10 versions of "Evil Vegeta" than one more version of "Evil Goku"...

was going to mention this ...
baby vegeta = majin vegeta = vegeta scouter

but if you want to simplify it like that ok both is true with baby or zamasu.

even so I will clarify that the creation of black goku was to establish a mystery of who was in the guise of goku, where he came from or because he looked like goku or his powers.

making his appearance phisic take second plane and of minus import,
it could have been gohan or vegeta but it was chosen goku because it was the strongest and because toriyama liked the idea of kamen raider black.

[sunsetshimmer]

How was Ginyu a version of evil Goku? He took over his body, that's it. And Ginyu's one of the most memorable villains in DB.

What was awful about Tulles?

I wasn't refering to Ginyu in general, only him in Goku's body being some kind of "Evil Goku"

And Turles was simply boring to me. He was very clear "what if Goku didn't become good" scenario, just with different name.

was going to mention this ...
baby vegeta = majin vegeta = vegeta scouter

It's kinda different. Majin and Baby forms were connected to Vegeta's story and his origins. Also, they were still Vegeta, just controlled more or less. Even Copy Vegeta, who had completely different body, was still Vegeta's copy and not mere impostor or lookalike. So none of them were really "Evil Vegeta" concept, not in the same way as "Evil Goku" is portrayed as. Also, Vegeta Scouter was just early Vegeta, i wouldn't count that.

Comparing Baby to Zamasu doesn't make much sense on this matter, because Black Goku's existence was mostly connected to Zamasu himself and didn't have much to do with Goku. It could be anyone else, like Goten Black. Those are not the same concepts, just very similar things happen but for completely different reasons.

[Tai Lung]

How was Ginyu a version of evil Goku? He took over his body, that's it. And Ginyu's one of the most memorable villains in DB.

What was awful about Tulles?

I wasn't refering to Ginyu in general, only him in Goku's body being some kind of "Evil Goku"

And Turles was simply boring to me. He was very clear "what if Goku didn't become good" scenario, just with different name.

was going to mention this ...
baby vegeta = majin vegeta = vegeta scouter

It's kinda different. Majin and Baby forms were connected to Vegeta's story and his origins. Also, they were still Vegeta, just controlled more or less. Even Copy Vegeta, who had completely different body, was still Vegeta's copy and not mere impostor or lookalike. So none of them were really "Evil Vegeta" concept, not in the same way as "Evil Goku" is portrayed as. Also, Vegeta Scouter was just early Vegeta, i wouldn't count that.

Comparing Baby to Zamasu doesn't make much sense on this matter, because Black Goku's existence was mostly connected to Zamasu himself and didn't have much to do with Goku. It could be anyone else, like Goten Black. Those are not the same concepts, just very similar things happen but for completely different reasons.

sufuru vegeta heroes and evil vegeta in xenoverse?

neither compare turles with black
Turles did not steal Goku's body and he does not use his techniques. He only looks like him.